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It would be better to trade Westbrook instead of moving him to the two IMO. Put Westbrook on a team that doesn't have a legit scorer and we don't hear the #####ing about him not passing. Rose and Westbrook are identical players (Westbrook actually passes more!) yet Westbrook gets all the hate will Rose gets an MVP.
I posted this earlier: Westbrook needs to go to a team like Houston or Indianapolis or Utah. Would Houston's two first round picks + Kyle Lowry + Jordan Hill be enough?
God no. That would be an all-time disaster for OKC. Paul for Westbrook would be a superstar trade that makes a lot of sense.
Maybe Phillip knows a little more than us message board geeks:
Maybe its not enough, but Lowry is one of (if not "the") best defensive PGs in the NBA. I'm not suggesting that Lowry is a better player then Westbrook, that isn't even close. I'm just saying that he has a quality that would be useful to OKC.
I highly doubt it. 1st round picks just aren't worth much when they aren't going to be in the lottery. Lowry and Hill don't help OKC at all. Lowry is at best a slight improvement over Maynor and Hill would never see the floor. A package of Westbrook, Robinson (expiring) + Picks + Cash for Paul is something OKC should be pushing for.
The difference is nobody is jumping over themselves to pretend that Mike Brown is an all time great and legend for what he has accomplished in the past. Mike Brown is getting compared to Brian Shaw.Shouldn't you be listing how many of those wins are against teams with 50 wins or more?It's funny how, prior to this postseason, you always dogged LeBron James' playoff record, using his lack of wins over 50+ win teams, but now those wins against .500 teams in the playoffs apparently mean a lot since you are trying to stroke Mike Brown.
That package is laughably bad. Come on dude.
I gotta give you credit. The lengths to which you will go to avoid the incredibly obvious inescapable conclusion that you've contradicted yourself are remarkable. I don't think I'd have that sort of moxie and capacity for self-delusion.Single question for you: Did the James/Brown Cavaliers teams exceed expectations in the playoffs given the talent on the roster, or did they fail to meet them?The difference is nobody is jumping over themselves to pretend that Mike Brown is an all time great and legend for what he has accomplished in the past. Mike Brown is getting compared to Brian Shaw.Shouldn't you be listing how many of those wins are against teams with 50 wins or more?It's funny how, prior to this postseason, you always dogged LeBron James' playoff record, using his lack of wins over 50+ win teams, but now those wins against .500 teams in the playoffs apparently mean a lot since you are trying to stroke Mike Brown.
In my personal opinion they both failed given their regular season success. What they lacked in pure talent they made up for in perfect complementary pieces.I gotta give you credit. The lengths to which you will go to avoid the incredibly obvious inescapable conclusion that you've contradicted yourself are remarkable. I don't think I'd have that sort of moxie and capacity for self-delusion.Single question for you: Did the James/Brown Cavaliers teams exceed expectations in the playoffs given the talent on the roster, or did they fail to meet them?The difference is nobody is jumping over themselves to pretend that Mike Brown is an all time great and legend for what he has accomplished in the past. Mike Brown is getting compared to Brian Shaw.Shouldn't you be listing how many of those wins are against teams with 50 wins or more?It's funny how, prior to this postseason, you always dogged LeBron James' playoff record, using his lack of wins over 50+ win teams, but now those wins against .500 teams in the playoffs apparently mean a lot since you are trying to stroke Mike Brown.
If I stated that Mike Brown is without a doubt the best coach in the league and any opinion otherwise would be fishing then you might have a leg to stand on.
Hope he comes to LA - with the $ Buss is saving from Phil to Brown he can afford to pay Messina.
I understand that you don't think he's the greatest coach who ever lived. It's not your opinion of Brown that contradicts everything you've ever said about LeBron. It's that you seemed to have a somewhat positive opinion of him, and that you used his playoff record to support your opinion. That's a contradiction. The only way to reconcile it would be to say that your initial post here was NOT intended to reflect positively on Brown ... but I think it's pretty clear that was your intent.In my personal opinion they both failed given their regular season success. What they lacked in pure talent they made up for in perfect complementary pieces.I gotta give you credit. The lengths to which you will go to avoid the incredibly obvious inescapable conclusion that you've contradicted yourself are remarkable. I don't think I'd have that sort of moxie and capacity for self-delusion.Single question for you: Did the James/Brown Cavaliers teams exceed expectations in the playoffs given the talent on the roster, or did they fail to meet them?The difference is nobody is jumping over themselves to pretend that Mike Brown is an all time great and legend for what he has accomplished in the past. Mike Brown is getting compared to Brian Shaw.Shouldn't you be listing how many of those wins are against teams with 50 wins or more?It's funny how, prior to this postseason, you always dogged LeBron James' playoff record, using his lack of wins over 50+ win teams, but now those wins against .500 teams in the playoffs apparently mean a lot since you are trying to stroke Mike Brown.If I stated that Mike Brown is without a doubt the best coach in the league and any opinion otherwise would be fishing then you might have a leg to stand on.
That's because you are completely ignoring who I am comparing them too.Legend: Kobe BryantI understand that you don't think he's the greatest coach who ever lived. It's not your opinion of Brown that contradicts everything you've ever said about LeBron. It's that you seemed to have a somewhat positive opinion of him, and that you used his playoff record to support your opinion. That's a contradiction. The only way to reconcile it would be to say that your initial post here was NOT intended to reflect positively on Brown ... but I think it's pretty clear that was your intent.In my personal opinion they both failed given their regular season success. What they lacked in pure talent they made up for in perfect complementary pieces.I gotta give you credit. The lengths to which you will go to avoid the incredibly obvious inescapable conclusion that you've contradicted yourself are remarkable. I don't think I'd have that sort of moxie and capacity for self-delusion.Single question for you: Did the James/Brown Cavaliers teams exceed expectations in the playoffs given the talent on the roster, or did they fail to meet them?The difference is nobody is jumping over themselves to pretend that Mike Brown is an all time great and legend for what he has accomplished in the past. Mike Brown is getting compared to Brian Shaw.Shouldn't you be listing how many of those wins are against teams with 50 wins or more?It's funny how, prior to this postseason, you always dogged LeBron James' playoff record, using his lack of wins over 50+ win teams, but now those wins against .500 teams in the playoffs apparently mean a lot since you are trying to stroke Mike Brown.If I stated that Mike Brown is without a doubt the best coach in the league and any opinion otherwise would be fishing then you might have a leg to stand on.
Agreed. The Thunder would be foolish to deal Westbrook in any package that doesn't net someone like Paul or Deron Williams. Westbrook certainly needs to improve his decision-making, but he has been learning point guard on the fly in the NBA. In his 2 years at UCLA, he was not the starting PG (Darren Collison was) and often played at the 2. Westbrook is 22 and still has a lot to learn, but he's also made considerable progress as a player in his three seasons. He should learn from this experience and be better off for it. If a year from now his decision-making is still an issue, then OKC will need to consider replacing him.
You think he'll come over as an assistant? Hasn't he always been mentioned as a head coaching candidate in the past?
More questions: We can all agree that the Lakers job, at least for the next 2-3 years, is one of the better jobs in the basketball world, yes? I mean when someone throws out Coach K as a potential candidate, it's clear we're not talking about a run of the mill gig.That's because you are completely ignoring who I am comparing them too.Legend: Kobe BryantI understand that you don't think he's the greatest coach who ever lived. It's not your opinion of Brown that contradicts everything you've ever said about LeBron. It's that you seemed to have a somewhat positive opinion of him, and that you used his playoff record to support your opinion. That's a contradiction. The only way to reconcile it would be to say that your initial post here was NOT intended to reflect positively on Brown ... but I think it's pretty clear that was your intent.In my personal opinion they both failed given their regular season success. What they lacked in pure talent they made up for in perfect complementary pieces.I gotta give you credit. The lengths to which you will go to avoid the incredibly obvious inescapable conclusion that you've contradicted yourself are remarkable. I don't think I'd have that sort of moxie and capacity for self-delusion.Single question for you: Did the James/Brown Cavaliers teams exceed expectations in the playoffs given the talent on the roster, or did they fail to meet them?The difference is nobody is jumping over themselves to pretend that Mike Brown is an all time great and legend for what he has accomplished in the past. Mike Brown is getting compared to Brian Shaw.Shouldn't you be listing how many of those wins are against teams with 50 wins or more?It's funny how, prior to this postseason, you always dogged LeBron James' playoff record, using his lack of wins over 50+ win teams, but now those wins against .500 teams in the playoffs apparently mean a lot since you are trying to stroke Mike Brown.If I stated that Mike Brown is without a doubt the best coach in the league and any opinion otherwise would be fishing then you might have a leg to stand on.
Player: LeBron James
Rookie: Whoever
Legend; Phil Jackson
Coach: Mike Brown
Rookie: Brian Shaw
I have a positive impression of Mike Brown over Brian Shaw and I have a similar positive impression of LeBron James over some unnamed rookie. How ridiculous would it sound to claim you would rather take your chance on some rookie because LeBron James has never won a championship in a 5 year time span?
Jesus Christ thats a lot of questions. Please choose one and be done with it. I'm not going to write an essay while Mavs and Heat fans want to talk about the Finals.
Fair enough, let's leave alone the "legend" silliness and focus one question on a real and current topic ...Why compare Brown to Shaw instead of Brown to any other candidate that the Lakers could have potentially hired, given the fact that it looks to me like a pretty good gig?This isn't argumentative shtick; I honestly didn't follow the hiring process and I'm curious as to why such a prestigious job seems to have come down to a career assistant and a guy who kind of lost his job due to perceived playoff failures and a possibly a failure to effectively manage a megastar.
Because I was responding to this...
Groovus apparently prefers Shaw, but really hasn't explain why other than he's not a playoff failure like Mike Brown.
Gotcha.Setting aside the Brown vs. Shaw thing for a moment and looking at the Brown hire from all angles, are you happy with it? What would you say is the general vibe in Laker-land?
I would probably be happy with hiring any coach with a defensive reputation. There wasn't any candidate out there that was perfect. I would imagine the average Laker fan is unhappy because Mike Brown was the scapegoat's for the Cavs playoff failures and most Laker fans or fans in general don't realize that the Lakers offense wasn't any more statistically successful against the Celtics or the Magic in the playoffs than the "inept" offense led by Mike Brown.
He also hasn't been requested to be fired by his star player - in fact just the opposite. He's also familiar with the personnel, what works and what doesn't. He also has the respect of the players on the team. He's not a retread. Most retreads are retreads for a reason. But yes, he also doesn't have a track record of underperformance in the playoffs. I'd rather give a fresh guy a chance than someone who's proven to be a failure. Great he got the Cavs to play D. The rosters are completely opposite. He's evidenced zero ability to put any semblance of an NBA offense out there. He sounds pretty unrefined in interviews and when he hosts. I think he'll get crushed by the pressure of dealing with Los Angeles. Shaw's been here a while, he's learned from the best, I think he'll handle it better.Pat Riley won championships with the Lakers in his 1st coaching job. Phil Jackson won championships in his 1st coaching job. I'd like to give Shaw that opportunity. Maybe Shaw can't do it, but Brown has already proven he can't. I doubt Brown makes it through the three years guaranteed on this contract.
Cool, makes sense. Thanks. From the outsiders' perspective it seemed weird to me, but I guess that's just because I expected a flashy hire given the fact that it's The Lakers.
I love Durant and I'm not a fan of LeBron. But one thing I took away from this series is that Durant is not close to LeBron and will probably never reach that point. Dirk outplayed Durant and was clearly the best player of the series. KD is very good and very young, but he needs to improve if he wants to become one of the All Time greats.Speaking selfishly, I'm torn between having a game to watch Saturday night and having the start of the Finals moved up two days, which will happen if the Heat win tonight (next Thursday to next Tuesday).
It's funny, but if things work out for Durant, he pretty much ends up like Novitzky, hopefully with a few more championships, probably a few more blocked shots.
The last coach who parlayed his tutorship under Phil Jackson into a head coaching job is 32-132 the last couple of years. What separates Brian Shaw from Kurt Rambis?What kind of offense should he have run in Cleveland? If the Lakers don't buy into playing defense, they won't win another championship. No matter who the coach is.
I won't speak for MPL, but elite, big name coaches just aren't available right now. As you know, the Lakers and their fans are never shy about their ability to get virtually anyone they want, be it player or coach. The names bandied about during this search were: Shaw, Adelman, Dunleavy, the Rifleman, JVan Gundy, and Brown. Of those folks, Adelman and Brown are the best choices (IMO). I like Shaw, and wouldn't have been angry had he been hired, but that's a little too much risk for what's at stake considering the Lakers are built to win immediately.Brown's been crushed by Lebron fans over the past couple years, but was losing to the higher seeded Celtics in 08 in 7 games, Orlando in '09, and the Celtics again last year really that big of a choke? All of the teams they lost to won the Eastern Conference. Would I rather have Popovich or Thibodeau? Absolutely. Is Brown a risk? Yep. Is he the idiot that LeBron backers on this board have suggested the past couple years? No way.
Jim Cleamons too. I do hope BShaw gets a job somewhere.
Cool. Thanks, gentlemen. For some reason I missed any previous discussion of the hire here.
You're quite the troll. Rambis already had a mini-audition with the Lakers - remember that? Remember how the team tuned him out, much like the Cavs tuned out Brown last year in the playoffs? Remember how Rambis is coaching what is probably the worst franchise in the league, with the worst talent in the league, instead of coaching the Lakers? Might those things differentiate his performance somewhat from Shaw's prospects as a Laker HC? Are those too many questions for you to handle?
Brown was not necessarily a bad fit in Cleveland. Who are the Lebobo backers that crushed Brown? The Cavs built a team around Lebron and Brown's defensive style of coaching. The players generally fit both criteria. Brown certainly had his downfalls, but he wasn't horrible or the only reason why the Cavs never won a title with one superstar. I don't really see how Brown fits to a Lakers team that is "already built". I personally think Shaw would have been the best fit and if it didn't work out in a few years their would be a changing of the guard anyways, whether that be with another superstar, maybe two, or a blow up of the roster. Both Brown and Shaw come with risks so I guess it comes down to how you weight them. I'm also not suggesteing there were fantastic hires out there that the Lakers didn't pursue...the coaching landscape has been dried out over the past few years.
Please if I wanted to troll you I would have done so way better than that. I even rewrote it a couple of times to make it sound nicer because I picked up on your unrivaled sensitivity. I don't remember that far back. I only remember the end of the season when the Lakers flamed out of the playoffs as failures. I remember the Lakers tuning out Phil Jackson, Brian Shaw and the rest of the coaching staff as they were swept by a less talented team. Apparently Mike Brown isn't capable of coaching up or inspiring more tenacious defense out of this older Lakers squad but somehow Brian Shaw would be able to because he is buddy buddy with Kobe?
Doubtful. Your trolling is all quantity - no quality. Way to not answer any of my questions, it's really nice of you to keep the thread uncluttered for all the playoffs talk.
How did Randy Pfund work out?Assistant coaches that have never been a head coach before carry a ton of risk. If you're going to make that hire, it should be someone who is a noted "guru" for something. Tom Thibodeau was a defensive "guru," for example.
How did Del Harris work out? How did Rudy T. work out? There's as much risk, if not more, in bringing in a retread - even ones with Championship wins under their belts. There wasn't even a guy like that on the market. So yeah, I'd rather see what Shaw can do. I don't recall Riley or Jackson being "guru" of anything when they got their first jobs.
This is exactly how I feel. I agree 100%.
Del Harris didn't work out, but he wasn't a disaster like Pfund was. Rudy T.? He quit on a crappy team. I almost pointed out Riley as the counter-point.As for Phil Jackson, he was a first time NBA head coach, but he was not a first time head coach. He'd won a title in the CBA and coached in Puerto Rico and become tight with Tex Winter and a devotee of the Triangle. Perhaps Brian Shaw should follow in his footsteps.
