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Cleveland Browns (14 Viewers)
- Thread starter wadegarrett
- Start date
ghostguy123
Footballguy
There's multiple ways that 1st round could have gone that would have led to the playoffs. How many 1st rounders can we draft that do nothing? We had the record about 4 busts ago.amnesiac said:
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Ok how many guys outside of the elite guys would have succeeded in Hoyer's situation last year? I get Hoyer is not this amazing QB, but I think he at least can be average. Also let's remember that Hoyer was coming off a major knee injury as well.
The 2014 Browns on Offense and their decisions they made:
-New Coach and new coordinator (fired Norv Turner as OC who was getting a lot out of very little there and Turner was super upset with how everything went down with Chudzinsky and with the type of moves the team was making).
-Draft a head case in Manziel with a 1st round pick
-Their best offensive WR was Josh Gordon who played 5 games and has his own issues. The back up plan at WR was Miles fricken Austin, Taylor Gabriel, Travis Benjamin and Andrew Hawkins. Now although Hawkins was at least average he is in no way shape or form a WR1 in the NFL.
-Jordan Cameron was supposed to have a huge year, but he was hurt most of the year and he only played in 10 games. He also seems to want to get as far away as he can from this mess they have running the ship there now that he is a free agent.
-At RB they started with Ben Tate, but released him. They then turned to 2 rookie Rb's. One averaged 3.9 ypc and one averaged 4.1 ypc MEH.
-They let Charles Johnson go for free who has appeared to turn himself into Minny's WR1 heading into next year and he is built like a WR1 and has some great upside.
So I ask again, how many QB's succeed in that situation? Hoyer was coming off of a major knee injury and had to learn a new Offense with almost zero weapons. Sure he can take some of the blame for some of his play, but he was put in one crappy situation.
Fast forward and the Browns plan so far heading into next year is to acquire a 35 year old QB who gives you zero upside as a starter going forward and at the time is mentoring a guy who is battling major immaturity issues and addictions. This franchise is in a really bad situation right now as Gordon is facing a 1 year suspension and Cameron is fleeing far away. The more I think about it, Hoyer probably wanted nothing to do with this situation and I don't blame him.
The 2014 Browns on Offense and their decisions they made:
-New Coach and new coordinator (fired Norv Turner as OC who was getting a lot out of very little there and Turner was super upset with how everything went down with Chudzinsky and with the type of moves the team was making).
-Draft a head case in Manziel with a 1st round pick
-Their best offensive WR was Josh Gordon who played 5 games and has his own issues. The back up plan at WR was Miles fricken Austin, Taylor Gabriel, Travis Benjamin and Andrew Hawkins. Now although Hawkins was at least average he is in no way shape or form a WR1 in the NFL.
-Jordan Cameron was supposed to have a huge year, but he was hurt most of the year and he only played in 10 games. He also seems to want to get as far away as he can from this mess they have running the ship there now that he is a free agent.
-At RB they started with Ben Tate, but released him. They then turned to 2 rookie Rb's. One averaged 3.9 ypc and one averaged 4.1 ypc MEH.
-They let Charles Johnson go for free who has appeared to turn himself into Minny's WR1 heading into next year and he is built like a WR1 and has some great upside.
So I ask again, how many QB's succeed in that situation? Hoyer was coming off of a major knee injury and had to learn a new Offense with almost zero weapons. Sure he can take some of the blame for some of his play, but he was put in one crappy situation.
Fast forward and the Browns plan so far heading into next year is to acquire a 35 year old QB who gives you zero upside as a starter going forward and at the time is mentoring a guy who is battling major immaturity issues and addictions. This franchise is in a really bad situation right now as Gordon is facing a 1 year suspension and Cameron is fleeing far away. The more I think about it, Hoyer probably wanted nothing to do with this situation and I don't blame him.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
They don't want Hoyer.Carter_Can_Fly said:
They need a vet QB bridge.
That means, to me, they will give Johnny a chance.
That could also mean they don't think they can move-up for a QB in this draft and/or they'll take a flyer on a late round guy.
I don't think it matters one way or another, the QB isn't on the roster and it sure ain't McCowan or some late round flyer.
I hope we trade down with one of our first round picks to acquire an additional first round pick next year.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Would anyone be against drafting 2 WRs in the first?
I mean... completely unconventional, and ya, we could use pieces in other areas.... But say we could nab any 2 of white/cooper/parker (if somehow, they remained on the board at our picks)..
Would you pass?
This offense is COMPLETELY anemic, bar Crowell. Defense is more than good enough to win us games if the offense can stay on the field and put up some points.
I know it's wild... but why the #### not?
I mean... completely unconventional, and ya, we could use pieces in other areas.... But say we could nab any 2 of white/cooper/parker (if somehow, they remained on the board at our picks)..
Would you pass?
This offense is COMPLETELY anemic, bar Crowell. Defense is more than good enough to win us games if the offense can stay on the field and put up some points.
I know it's wild... but why the #### not?
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I don't think so Soul.
We ranked dead last, 32nd in the league is defending the run.
We will lose Ahytba Rubin because he's over paid making over $8 million per year and we might lose Phil Taylor because he's ready to test the market and he will be overpaid especially considering the fact he's missed over a full season due to injuries in his short career.
Then we have two other D-Linemen coming off injuries in John Hughes and Armonty Bryant so we don't really know what we have with them.
We could overpay to sign an aging veteran D-Lineman in free agency and its possible we go that route but I dunno.
Looks like at least one solid DL will be available in the first round and its hard to find big guys who can run according to Bill Parcels 'planet theory' where only so many guys like that exist on the planet.
The draft is supposed to be deep at WR so unless one of the top-three WRs fall to the 12th pick, good possibility that happens, then I'd go DL with the 12th pick and trade the 19th pick down into one of the top-ten picks in the 2nd round if I had a buyer who wanted to move-up to that pick and insist on a 2016 1st round pick in return.
With two picks in the top-twelve of the 2nd round I'm sure we could come away with a decent WR and quite possibly DGB could drop due to character concerns in which case I'd be fine taking two WRs in the 2nd round provided we came away with an additional 1st round pick in 2016 to go after a QB once Johnny fails this year and whatever late round flyer QB shows nothing.
Basically I see this draft as an opportunity to position ourselves to take a run at a QB in 2016. I don't think adding any other players really does anything except keep our heads above water till we land the QB and I don't think it happens this year so I want us to position ourselves to get a guy next year.
Old Smiley
Footballguy
I was just going back through the Cosell pods from about the time Hoyer went south. Another synchronous thing was Mack going down. Loss of any center can really blow things up for a month or so. Super underrated injury just in general.
Old Smiley
Footballguy
ProFootballTalk @ProFootballTalk 11m11 minutes ago
McCown wants to help Manziel grow as a person and player http://wp.me/p14QSB-9IwJ
Getting misty here.
McCown wants to help Manziel grow as a person and player http://wp.me/p14QSB-9IwJ
Getting misty here.
msommer
Footballguy
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
How original, a douchie cynical reply.
I replied to the only way that I would be ok taking two WRs high in the draft. Seemed obvious the reason why I would ok with taking 2 WRs in the second round would be if a character red flag like DGB somehow dropped. Ya know, taking a guy with obvious character concerns but who has 1st round talents. If someone like DGB falls to the 2nd round and you think the Browns have to pass because of JG.
OK lets play that out and say that they cringe like little girls and operate out of fear like you suggest and then DGB blows up and then what? You and the cool douchie cynical crowd would say what exactly?
If a DGB falls you take him and then CYA by taking a second WR and that is the only way I'd be fine taking two WRs. Only if one of them has huge upside at minimal cost but you take the second guy to cover that bet.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Because there is better value later. I think two wide receivers day two may make more sense.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
I dont care about value anymore
Those 3 WRs are seen as gaurantees. We need guarantees. Not value
MAC_32
Footballguy
If one falls to 12 then pick him. No trade ups though. If none of them fall then plan to take two day two. Moot point at 19, won't be there. Get some front seven help. Circle back to wr next day. Like last year, deep wr class, starters will be there.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
No WR is a guarantee, especially with #### at QB.
You want a radical draft plan with some sense behind it? Ignore WR completely. Start this year and work backwards looking at SB winners, and see how highly they value that essentially worthless position. Spend your last three or four draft picks on the smartest QB's available and have a bloodbath open competition. Ignore all other scouting info besides that which says he has at least the minimum talent necessary to stay alive in the league. Repeat until you find a guy at QB that has everyone saying, "I can't believe he fell in the draft."
You'll contend for a SB due to your ungodly OLine and D and eerily smart and capable QB within five years. This, after half a century of worthlessness as a franchise.
Start rooting for the right things.
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MAC_32
Footballguy
I like Parker, but if I can get a Perriman or Strong round two I'll take him then and a front seven guy at 12.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
jurb26
Footballguy
No way Strong falls to round 2. I didn't think he would prior to the combine. Now that's he's performed as well as he did there, even less of a chance.
mr fancypants
Footballguy
Until this FA period sorts itself out. It's going to be way to premature to try and figure what the browns plans are.
I know they don't plan on being heavy spenders, but think of the possibilities that can happen say if they sign the
following likes of (who are all relatively young):
OLB Jerry Hughes of Buffalo
NT Dan Williams of Arizona
WR Cecil Shorts
This would open up all kinds of options to do in the draft such as:
1. Package the picks to go after Mariota
2. Use #12 on a #1 WR, OT, or another DL
3. Use #19 on any of the above not taken @ #12 or TE (Maxx Williams) or the next developmental QB.
I know they don't plan on being heavy spenders, but think of the possibilities that can happen say if they sign the
following likes of (who are all relatively young):
OLB Jerry Hughes of Buffalo
NT Dan Williams of Arizona
WR Cecil Shorts
This would open up all kinds of options to do in the draft such as:
1. Package the picks to go after Mariota
2. Use #12 on a #1 WR, OT, or another DL
3. Use #19 on any of the above not taken @ #12 or TE (Maxx Williams) or the next developmental QB.
mr fancypants
Footballguy
Agreed, I actually think this is more important decision than landing a RT,
but I think we can grab either Grasu, Finney or Gallik in the 3rd round.
Let them learn the position from one of the best in 2015 while
possibly competing with the RG spot and see what happens in 2016.
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You guys please be cooler on this. It's a legit worry about character concerns not working out.
You guys know football and this can be a great place to discuss it. But please keep it cool. Thanks.
J
MAC_32
Footballguy
I really want to get into playing make believe GM of this team, but I have absolutely no faith in the leadership to get it right anyway.
Besides the obvious, I understand and agree with not going hard after free agents, but the idea is to re-sign your own, as they've said. It's starting to look like most of our free agents are walking, probably because they don't want to be here. I get that this regime didn't draft them, but they seem to be approaching this like Holmgren's '5 year plan.'
I'm irritated.
amnesiac
beer is good
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/03/brian_hartline_could_decide_be.html#incart_2box_sports_index.ssf
Hawkins, Hartline, Austin, plus a reciever in the first round would be a solid group, imo.
Hawkins, Hartline, Austin, plus a reciever in the first round would be a solid group, imo.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Those 3 receivers have a grand total of 10 touchdowns scored in the last 2 seasons combined.
franchise punter
Footballguy
You mean again?
amnesiac
beer is good
better than Kansas City!
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
The team said they wouldn't be big spenders in free agency and it seems like we will lose some guys who will command big money.
The strategy the front office seems to want to adapt is to start acquiring those compensentory draft picks that teams like Baltimore and New England constantly cultivate. So if we don't spend big bucks in the free agent market and lose guys who get big contracts we will finally start getting extra mid-late round picks.
The signing of QB Josh McCowan doesn't count against that strategy because he was free to sign before the free agency period. Reports said we probably will lose Jabaal Sheard beause he wants to go to a team running a 4-3 so he can go back to his natural position so when reports said were looking at a pass rusher that made sense to me but when 32 year old Trent Cole's name was mentioned that didn't sound right to me. Turns out Trent also won't count against the strategy of picking up players who don't count against trying to adapt a compensentory pick strategy since he is also free to sign before the free agency period.
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Pro Football Focus @PFF · 22h 22 hours ago
Cut players like Trent Cole don't have to wait to sign. Still a productive rusher & multiple visits lined up.
=======================
We have a lot of cap and we probably will lose some guys who are going to command huge contracts like CB Buster Skrine who has 8 teams after him but we need to address WR and DL and possibly TE/CB positions.
At WR we have enough smaller WRs and it looks like we'll lose TE Jordan Cameron unless his market is weaker than he projected and he can't find a team on the west coast to be nearer to his son. Basically we need big red zone targets so this rumor that popped up doesn't make much sense to me.
http://cle.scout.com/story/1524949-maclin-rumors-continue-to-swirl
Macklin is the last top flight free agent WR left after Cobb re-signed with the Pack for $9 million per year and Macklin might require that same sort of contract which would wipe out any compensentory draft picks since Buster Skrine will likely sign for less and Ahtyba Rubin and Jaball Sheard may not get as much or much more than what they were already making basically washing out the lost dollar values of those contracts with someone like Macklin should we sign him.
Also Macklin did have a fine season last year with 85 receptions for 1,318 yards and 10 receiving TDs. Excellent but it was only his first 1,000 yard receiving season in his five year career. Don't forget he was playing in Chip Kelly's high powered offense but in his other four years in the league he averaged almost 65 receptions for 863 yards and 6.5 TDs per year.
Miles Austin is 6'2 and 215 lbs. We can resign him and it won't count against any compensentory draft pick strategy or we can go after less expensive free agent WRs who we could sign and still receive comensentory picks going forward like Brian Hartline or Cecil Shorts, both have local connections and have been productive and are nearly the same size and age of Macklin. Admittedly neither are as good as Macklin but they would come cheaper. Also Hartline did something Macklin hasn't done, he had back-to-back 1,000 yard receiving years in 2012 and 2013 but last year the Dolphins redirected the passing attack away from him and targeted rookie Jarvis Laundry.
One name to keep an eye out for is WR Andre Johnson should he be cut because then he won't count against the compensentory draft pick strategy but he'd be a perfect fit as a big red zone WR.
The other area we should address in free agency is DL and their are actually a lot of guys out there so I think we will wind up picking up a D-Lineman and a WR. The only big name that we may break the bank for, IMHO, is TE Julius Thomas since we probably will lose Cameron and DeFilipo has said he needs a pass receiving TE in his system so I would like Jordan Cameron back and haven't heard any rumors yet of him going to any teams.
Ahh just checked and TE Julius Thomas is seeing interest from Jacksonville.
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NFLTradeRumors.co @nfltrade_rumors · 8m 8 minutes ago
Report: #Jaguars Closing In On Agreement With TE Julius Thomas http://bit.ly/1F08V9M
======
Also we seem to be focusing in on TE Ed Dickson. So we may not be signing ANY big name free agents this year and we will likely lose a couple.
======
Jeremy Fowler@JFowlerESPN 3h3 hours ago
#Browns, likely in the market for a tight end, have expressed interest in veteran TE Ed Dickson over the weekend.
The strategy the front office seems to want to adapt is to start acquiring those compensentory draft picks that teams like Baltimore and New England constantly cultivate. So if we don't spend big bucks in the free agent market and lose guys who get big contracts we will finally start getting extra mid-late round picks.
The signing of QB Josh McCowan doesn't count against that strategy because he was free to sign before the free agency period. Reports said we probably will lose Jabaal Sheard beause he wants to go to a team running a 4-3 so he can go back to his natural position so when reports said were looking at a pass rusher that made sense to me but when 32 year old Trent Cole's name was mentioned that didn't sound right to me. Turns out Trent also won't count against the strategy of picking up players who don't count against trying to adapt a compensentory pick strategy since he is also free to sign before the free agency period.
=======================
Pro Football Focus @PFF · 22h 22 hours ago
Cut players like Trent Cole don't have to wait to sign. Still a productive rusher & multiple visits lined up.
=======================
We have a lot of cap and we probably will lose some guys who are going to command huge contracts like CB Buster Skrine who has 8 teams after him but we need to address WR and DL and possibly TE/CB positions.
At WR we have enough smaller WRs and it looks like we'll lose TE Jordan Cameron unless his market is weaker than he projected and he can't find a team on the west coast to be nearer to his son. Basically we need big red zone targets so this rumor that popped up doesn't make much sense to me.
http://cle.scout.com/story/1524949-maclin-rumors-continue-to-swirl
Macklin is not a smurf 6'0 tall and 198 lbs but the guys we may loss in TE Jordan Cameron 6'5 and 249 lbs and who may never play again in Josh Gordon 6'3 and 224 lbs are bigger and taller.
Macklin is the last top flight free agent WR left after Cobb re-signed with the Pack for $9 million per year and Macklin might require that same sort of contract which would wipe out any compensentory draft picks since Buster Skrine will likely sign for less and Ahtyba Rubin and Jaball Sheard may not get as much or much more than what they were already making basically washing out the lost dollar values of those contracts with someone like Macklin should we sign him.
Also Macklin did have a fine season last year with 85 receptions for 1,318 yards and 10 receiving TDs. Excellent but it was only his first 1,000 yard receiving season in his five year career. Don't forget he was playing in Chip Kelly's high powered offense but in his other four years in the league he averaged almost 65 receptions for 863 yards and 6.5 TDs per year.
Miles Austin is 6'2 and 215 lbs. We can resign him and it won't count against any compensentory draft pick strategy or we can go after less expensive free agent WRs who we could sign and still receive comensentory picks going forward like Brian Hartline or Cecil Shorts, both have local connections and have been productive and are nearly the same size and age of Macklin. Admittedly neither are as good as Macklin but they would come cheaper. Also Hartline did something Macklin hasn't done, he had back-to-back 1,000 yard receiving years in 2012 and 2013 but last year the Dolphins redirected the passing attack away from him and targeted rookie Jarvis Laundry.
One name to keep an eye out for is WR Andre Johnson should he be cut because then he won't count against the compensentory draft pick strategy but he'd be a perfect fit as a big red zone WR.
The other area we should address in free agency is DL and their are actually a lot of guys out there so I think we will wind up picking up a D-Lineman and a WR. The only big name that we may break the bank for, IMHO, is TE Julius Thomas since we probably will lose Cameron and DeFilipo has said he needs a pass receiving TE in his system so I would like Jordan Cameron back and haven't heard any rumors yet of him going to any teams.
Ahh just checked and TE Julius Thomas is seeing interest from Jacksonville.
=======
NFLTradeRumors.co @nfltrade_rumors · 8m 8 minutes ago
Report: #Jaguars Closing In On Agreement With TE Julius Thomas http://bit.ly/1F08V9M
======
Also we seem to be focusing in on TE Ed Dickson. So we may not be signing ANY big name free agents this year and we will likely lose a couple.
======
Jeremy Fowler@JFowlerESPN 3h3 hours ago
#Browns, likely in the market for a tight end, have expressed interest in veteran TE Ed Dickson over the weekend.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Ahem.
Coincidence that Trent Cole just tweeted that he is BACK IN OHIO?
============
Trent Cole @Pro_Hunt58 · 7m 7 minutes ago
It's good to be back in Ohio. #ClevelandBrowns #FreeAgency
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Evidentially Trent enjoys tweeting.
His latest:
=======
Trent Cole @Pro_Hunt58 · 11m 11 minutes ago
Next stop will be the Colts.
Trent Cole @Pro_Hunt58 · 9m 9 minutes ago
Spending the day with Browns today and tommorrow.
=======
His latest:
=======
Trent Cole @Pro_Hunt58 · 11m 11 minutes ago
Next stop will be the Colts.
Trent Cole @Pro_Hunt58 · 9m 9 minutes ago
Spending the day with Browns today and tommorrow.
=======
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Last night.
http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&r=17&post_id=42931
I think it means they feel like they will take a step forward and won't have top picks in upcoming drafts.
Also it does seem to be successful for teams who openly have used this strategy so I like it.
Tony Grossi this morning:
http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&r=17&post_id=42931
Do you guys and gals like this strategy?
I think it means they feel like they will take a step forward and won't have top picks in upcoming drafts.
Also it does seem to be successful for teams who openly have used this strategy so I like it.
amnesiac
beer is good
i like it.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
A good strategy to let everyone leave, not sign anyone, and gain late picks?
strategy?
strategy?
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Good? I said I like it because of the guys we apparently will lose, Sheard wasn't the best fit for the system, Skrine's price will be too much, Hoyer had his shot and petered out, and Camreron has only played four years and missed 18 games (over one full season) and no one seems to be beating his door down in the first wave of signings.
Gaining extra picks is good if the guys we lose won't push us over the top and right now we aren't making any pushes so why not?
The front office seem to be going in that direction but they could change by making one big signing and Mary Kay Cabot is tweeting this:
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Mary Kay Cabot @MaryKayCabot 10m10 minutes ago
#Browns have expressed interest in CB Darrelle Revis, who played for Mike Pettine in NY, league source tells http://cleveland.com
-------
Interest makes sense but if they sign Revis the compensatory draft pick strategy goes out the window. I don't think we break the bank for Revis but if we do then why haven't we made plays for other high priced free agents especially at NT or WR or pass rusher? We saw how much Pettine values the CB position last year and it appears he really does need that lock-down press-corner to start opposite Joe Haden so who knows? Maybe he could be 'thee-guy' to push the defense over the top.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
Twitter post of the day:
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Soulfly3
Footballguy
ugly rich guys get hot tail all the time.
it doesnt last, but they get a few pokes at the bear
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Revis isn't Scarlett Johansson.
He got cut from Tampa Bay because he was making an insane $16 million per year. They preferred to take a $7 million cap hit in dead money to ditch him rather than continue paying his ridiculous contract.
He signed last year with New England but cut his salary down to $12 million per year and the Pats aren't willing to continue paying that salary.
New England isn't going to pay him and he's already taken one significant hit to the wallet so he's fair game IMHO. His salary was untenable so the market seems to be making a correct. The Jets are reportedly in the mix and if his numbers fall into alignment where bidding takes place then any-team willing to pay him top-dollar is a legitimate candidate IMHO.
B-Deep
Footballguy
would Revis even make sense?
To me Mccown is a punt on the season. He's not going to win you anything, he's not the future, he's a placeholder. Why throw money at Revis to play while your placeholder plays QB?
Wouldn't it be better to invest in younger players that can build with you?
To me Mccown is a punt on the season. He's not going to win you anything, he's not the future, he's a placeholder. Why throw money at Revis to play while your placeholder plays QB?
Wouldn't it be better to invest in younger players that can build with you?
ghostguy123
Footballguy
MAC_32
Footballguy
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
It isn't about the offense, the Browns defense is a player or two from being playoff caliber. Their defensive backfield was ranked #1 in the NFL defending the pass last year even after losing FS Tashon Gibson, who was leading the NFL in interceptions when he went down. Also their top pick, Justin Gilbert, struggled.
Mike Pettine had Revis in NY with the Jets, and he already has Pro Bowl CB Joe Haden, and two Pro Bowl caliber safeties in Donte Whitner and Tashon Gibson. They will lose CB Buster Skrine but he struggled with big-physical WRs and was seen as a slot CB. Pettine really wanted a shut-down press-man cornerback to pair with Haden and used a top-ten pick last year on Gilbert. He REALLY values that position so its possible a guy like Revis and using one or even both first round draft picks on defense would push the defense into a playoff caliber unit.
The Browns have the offensive line and some young RBs to have a legit ground attack. A dominate defense and a powerful ground attack might be enough to push a 7-9 team into competing for the playoffs but right now Pettine doesn't have his lock-down CB to pair with Joe Haden so again, who knows?
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
The bolded is not true (as far as anyone knows). They cut him because his salary for 2015 would have been $20MM. I'm fairly certain that they would immediately sign up for bringing him back at $12MM.
