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How much Voter Fraud is Happening (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Orange Crush
- Start date
timschochet
Footballguy
i do. I don't think voter ID laws maintain it .
timschochet
Footballguy
if they didn't commit fraud, why do they need to be removed?
Pabst Blue Ribbon
Footballguy
Voting is representation. When you oppose representation, you are for oppression. When you are for oppression, then you don't understand the principles America was founded upon.
Clifford
Footballguy
Why? What reason do you have to not believe the article on any of its claims?
Also, who do you propose pay for the investigation into this initiative?
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Because a person should only be registered to vote in one location. If someone no longer lives there or has established residency in other state, they need to be purged. Having a bunch of names of dead people, people who moved, felons, illigals aliens or whatever on the voter rolls makes voter fraud easy.
CBusAlex
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
i agree with your reasoning, which one of the many reasons I am against these laws. But reasoning like yours is the polar opposite of Todd Andrews who spends most of his time insulting the other side. As I wrote earlier, I do believe the leadership of the GOP is being completely disingenuous about this issue . But I don't think that extends downward to the conservatives in this thread. They believe in their arguments, and most aren't hypocrites .
timschochet
Footballguy
but surely you acknowledge that many innocent people will be turned away from the voting booth if this is carried out?
Bullsh*t. You said just the other day that you were in favor of them until you started questioning the motives of the people enacting them. So, you must believe they would help maintain the integrity of the system, or you would have cited that as your reason for NOW opposing them when you USED to be in favor.
I believe they are wrong because the claims seems contradictory to other facts. The article is very obviously written with a left-leaning slant with emotionally-charged words and big claims of racism with no evidence which supports their claims. In this instance they claim 7 million fraudsters and say 41,000 have already been removed in Virgina. However, the removal of those were not because they were suspected fraudsters, but merely because they were believed to be registered in other states according to every news source who reported that story. Now a bunch of left-wing sites are blindly running with this story and I am almost sure all the spin in it is not accurate.
I hear this claim. I have heard a few outspoken people say this happened, but I have not heard many. I would think if this was widespread, it would be easily documented by Democrats and proven there are 'many'. That would make a very good basis for a lawsuit. If someone turned me away and I had every right to vote, my representative would be made aware of it.
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timschochet
Footballguy
this is one of your traits- to cherry pick one small aspect of what someone wrote and then try to prove it's a lie. My offer the other day was intended to emphasize the irrelevancy of voter fraud versus the damage that voter ID laws may have on minority voter representation. In a perfect world, yes we should have voter ID, but I regard it as an extremely low priority.
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Just because you are uninformed does not mean things dont happen. Like I have said repeatedly, if you dont know what you are talking about probably better to not comment or get up to speed. This is an older report.
Florida is a beautiful example of how wonderful these purges are....
More recently....
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
What does "believed to be registered in another state" mean? I assume I'm registered in two states, Virginia and California, as I never acted to remove myself from Va's roll when I moved. What if CA removed me from the voting roll b/c they saw I was registered in VA?
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
A Democrat would have been prevented from voting, and the system would be working as intended?
joffer
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Don't sell yourself short. Folks with your level of analytical skills make up a very small percentage of the population.
The first two links were about Florida 2000 and the last link was about an unsuccessful effort in Florida to purge the voter rolls. What Florida 2000 cames down to was there were 'at least 108 legitimate voters were not purged from the list until after the election' and that was offered with no citation ("citation needed'). So I am not sure what that is based on. Only one specific example was mentioned of a guy who tried to vote who was turned away. So in the three links you provided, there was only one specific example of an eligible voter turned away.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
No. I've been in favor of voter ID laws way before they became a partisan issue. We've had relatively minor debates on this before.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
My point was more addressing the fact that Clifford thinks every single person that supports voter ID laws is doing so because they want their side to win. I don't really think that is a very common thought at all. I think the reason most people support voter ID is what I mentioned above.
Whether or not it is a good idea is irrelevant to that discussion since it is about their motivations, not the ends. I think Clifford is dead wrong and I actually believe that more people oppose voter ID for political reasons than people support it for political reasons.
For the record I support a voter ID law. I have zero problems with a law that states you have to show ID in order to vote. That being said, if my only choices are a voter ID law that forces us to provide free ID's to anybody that wants one or the current system, I will take the current system. So basically I think it would make the process better if ID was required. I think it would eliminate some fraud. I don't care enough about the process improvement or fraud elimination though that I am willing to have my taxes increased because of it.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I think you are right about the average person on the street who says they support Voter ID in a survey. I don't think they generally have partisan motives.
I do think that the people really pushing for this stuff are motivated in large part by partisanship.
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Why do you refuse to read stuff before commenting on it? The first list was a summary of voter purges in the US from 1997 to 2008 or so. For example, it noted that 13 million voters were purged from the rolls in 39 states and DC between 2004 and 2006. What does that have to do with Florida in 2000?
There are numerous examples in numerous states of legit voters taken off the voter rolls.
Again, your ignorance of things doesnt mean that those things dont exist. What a strange way to exist.
Clifford
Footballguy
Please list these other facts. Stop being vague. The article shows instructions from the very authors of Crosscheck themselves instructing auditors to ignore mismatches in Social Security numbers. Why?
Clifford
Footballguy
I do not think that and have never said so. I think the political proponents who are spreading the boogeyman myth of voter fraud are doing it only because they want their side to win. So they create a fake scare to get the uninformed to support laws that solve a problem that doesn't actually exist in any meaningful way. (There are folks like Ivan who recognize it for what it actually is and support it anyway, on the theory that if people aren't motivated enough to get an ID they shouldn't be voting anyway. Weirdly enough I have heightened antipathy and respect for this point of view, as it at least recognizes the true intent).
Since they have already trained most of their most vocal supporters to think that all problems the poor encounter are due to the poor being lazy, shiftless, largely worthless individuals, the combo of the false scare with the lack of empathy towards the poor is a perfect recipe for getting this law passed through the Republican dominated state congresses.
I think there are likely lots of folks who buy the false scare and really believe these laws will somehow protect the voting process. And furthermore I do not agree that everyone would switch sides on this if it benefitted their party of choice. I am opposed to making participation in a democracy harder for anyone, regardless of how they vote.
Jim11
Footballguy
Boogeyman myth?Clifford said:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/391474/non-citizens-are-voting-john-fund
A new study by two Old Dominion University professors, based on survey data from the Cooperative Congressional Election Study, indicated that 6.4 percent of all non-citizens voted illegally in the 2008 presidential election, and 2.2 percent in the 2010 midterms. Given that 80 percent of non-citizens lean Democratic, they cite Al Franken ’s 312-vote win in the 2008 Minnesota U.S. Senate race as one likely tipped by non-citizen voting. As a senator, Franken cast the 60th vote needed to make Obamacare law.
North Carolina features one of the closest Senate races in the country this year, between Democratic incumbent Kay Hagan and Republican Thom Tillis. So what guerrilla filmmaker James O’Keefe, the man who has uncovered voter irregularities in states ranging from Colorado to New Hampshire, has learned in North Carolina is disturbing. This month, North Carolina officials found at least 145 illegal aliens, still in the country thanks to the Obama administration’s Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, registered to vote. Hundreds of other non-citizens may be on the rolls.
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/10/29/massive-non-citizen-voting-uncovered-in-maryland/
An election integrity watchdog group is suing the state of Maryland, alleging that it has discovered massive and ongoing fraudulent voting by non-U.S. citizens in one county. But because of the way that the non-citizens are able to cast votes in elections, the fraud is likely happening in every single county and subdivision across the state. The group believes that the illegal voting has been happening for years.
Clifford
Footballguy
Just to show that what is happening in Crosscheck is not a one-off and is at least repeated in other efforts if not systemic:
At first, Florida specified only exact matches on names, birthdates and genders to identify voters as felons. However, state records reveal a memo dated March 1999 from Emmett "Bucky" Mitchell, a lawyer for the state elections office who was supervising the felon purge, asking DBT to loosen its criteria for acceptable matches. When DBT representatives warned Mitchell that this would yield a large proportion of false positives (mismatches), Mitchell's reply was that it would be up to each county elections supervisor to deal with the problem.[4]
At first, Florida specified only exact matches on names, birthdates and genders to identify voters as felons. However, state records reveal a memo dated March 1999 from Emmett "Bucky" Mitchell, a lawyer for the state elections office who was supervising the felon purge, asking DBT to loosen its criteria for acceptable matches. When DBT representatives warned Mitchell that this would yield a large proportion of false positives (mismatches), Mitchell's reply was that it would be up to each county elections supervisor to deal with the problem.[4]
I was being clear. The other facts were they completely mischaracterized the voters who were in Virginia who were purged from the voter rolls. Here is an excerpt from the Washington Post:Clifford said:
That is not how they were characterized in this article, which characterized them as voters who "represent legions of fraudsters who are not only registered but have actually voted in two or more states in the same election a felony punishable by 2 to 10 years in prison". The article is making claims which simple are not true.
Clifford
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Oh ok, so that clears it up.Clifford said:
You think there are two groups.
1. People pushing it for political reasons.
2. People that have been tricked for political reasons.
Jim11
Footballguy
Clifford
Footballguy
Essentially yes. We see it in opinion polls all the time.
70% believed Saddam was involved in 9/11
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-09-06-poll-iraq_x.htm
More people think Obama is a muslim now than in 2008
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/conservatives-more-likely-to-think-obama-is-muslim-now-than-in-2008/
As I said it's a perfect combination of being asked to prove a negative (ie prove it does not exist; impossible) and conforming to biases that already exist in the heart of the base (poor people are lacking in personal accountability and are lazy).
TL;dr it is not hard to get the American people to believe something in large numbers despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary
Tim and Kook understood that the 7 million voters identified were people who voted twice in the same election, as the article states. That is wrong. I am not sure what you are not getting.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Clifford
Footballguy
Wow you missed the entire point of the article, and need your sarcasm meter checked.
The entire point of the article is that there are 7m people on this list due to the extremely lax efforts at creating any sort of authentication system that is accurate. Those 7m are not people who voted twice. Those 7m people are most likely in fact two separate people who just happen to have the same first and last names.
Unbelievable. Did you really read that whole thing thinking that this Crosscheck list is actually people who voted twice?
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I am not sure what those things have to do with this issue.
I still find it hard to believe that you think it is more likely people support voter ID because of the reasons you mention rather than people support voter ID because they have to use their ID for tons of things all the time in order to identify themselves. Most americans don't really know much about foreign affairs. You could prey on ignorance there. Showing ID is a whole different animal. It is awfully hard to convince people that they need to show ID to get a hotel room, board a plane, or a get job, but that they shouldn't have to in order to vote because when it comes to voting everybody has good intentions, lives exactly where they say they do, and would never dream of going and voting for a buddy that was out of town.
mcintyre1
Footballguy
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
LOL. That's the problem? You think voting is so much fun that folks are lining up to do it not only for themselves, but for buddies who are out of town as well?
Most people are too lazy to vote once, much less twice, while risking a felony.
Clifford
Footballguy
I don't follow the logic that because showing an ID is appropriate for some things it should be appropriate for all things.
Especially if it involves making new laws. Which it does.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
It has never happened that somebody has voted for somebody else they knew. Never. Ever. That is what you are saying right?
Jim11
Footballguy
Donna Brazile: 'Voter fraud is a big ### lie'
http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S3607682.shtml
According to the Rio Arriba County Clerk's office, a voter trying to cast an early ballot in Espanola Saturday was told he had already voted three days prior.
The man told poll workers he hadn't voted. He was then shown the signature of the voter, but he says it wasn't his signature.
Officials say they were able to confirm that the signature on the original ballot did not match the legal voter's signature on file.
http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S3607682.shtml
According to the Rio Arriba County Clerk's office, a voter trying to cast an early ballot in Espanola Saturday was told he had already voted three days prior.
The man told poll workers he hadn't voted. He was then shown the signature of the voter, but he says it wasn't his signature.
Officials say they were able to confirm that the signature on the original ballot did not match the legal voter's signature on file.
squistion
Footballguy
OMG, one documented case of voter fraud. This is worse than Obama raising the gas prices.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Jim11
Footballguy
See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil...since the evil of voter fraud is mostly committed by the lefties.squistion said:
http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2012/09/14/7_examples_that_show_voter_fraud_is_a_huge_problem/page/full
Democrats believe that they benefit from voter fraud; so they oppose any sort of attempt to verify that voters are who they say they are.
They can't admit that; so they use two excuses.
The first is their patronizing and insulting claim that black Americans are so uniquely stupid and incompetent that you can't expect them to get a photo ID like white people do. It's amazing that in 2012, a major political party would make such a racist argument, but the Democrats do.
Their other claim is that voter fraud is so exceedingly rare, so unlikely, such an impossibility that there's no need for any voter identification. According to the Democrats, we can afford to assume that everyone will be honest on Election Day. So, there's no need to take any basic precautions or take any steps to prevent fraud because it just doesn't happen.
Well, to the contrary, voter fraud happens all the time and it does sometimes occur on a level large enough to impact close elections. Furthermore, it undoubtedly happens much more than we realize. After all, if poll workers are prevented by law from asking if people are who they say they are, how often are they going to catch people in the act? Afterwards, when you have disinterested government employees or partisan groups scanning voter data to try to find fraud, it's nearly impossible to look at a spread sheet and determine that person X was really person Y. So, if you don't bother to check for voter ID on the front end, you're probably not going to find it on the back end either. When you consider that a dedicated, well prepared team of say a dozen operatives could literally go from polling place to polling place and cast HUNDREDS of fraudulent votes a day with little chance of being caught, it's not a small issue. That's why we should have some system in place other than the Democrats' touching insistence that we can trust everyone to be honest on Election Day because as you're about to see, that's certainly not the case.
squistion
Footballguy
Jim11
Footballguy
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Poll workers allowed the man to vote on a provisional ballot, but election officials will have to determine whether the provisional ballot can be counted.Jim11 said:
So the way to stop fraud is to not count legitimate voters' votes.
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