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GroveDiesel

***Official Buffalo Bills Thread 2020 Version***

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KC beat SD

This is were it'll likely all fall apart. No way KC wins that game.

Yeah SD at KC but KC won't need that game. Wish we could have beat one of them at home none the less.

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KC beat SD

This is were it'll likely all fall apart. No way KC wins that game.

I think KC has a better shot of beating SD than the Bills beating NE, but yeah, both are pretty slim.

Edited by Grigs Allmoon

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KC beat SD

This is were it'll likely all fall apart. No way KC wins that game.

Rivers has a bulging disk in his back. It's possible.

I still don't think the Bills beat NE.

That loss to the Chiefs is just an absolute killer.

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KC beat SD

This is were it'll likely all fall apart. No way KC wins that game.

Yeah SD at KC but KC won't need that game. Wish we could have beat one of them at home none the less.

Yes they do. KC has to win out to make it.

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KC beat SD

This is were it'll likely all fall apart. No way KC wins that game.

Yeah SD at KC but KC won't need that game. Wish we could have beat one of them at home none the less.

Yes they do. KC has to win out to make it.

I think he's suggesting if they lose today, they will most likely have nothing to play for.

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:(

I know the playoffs were a longshot, but this is not how you wanna go out.

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I can't even blame this on Marrone, as much as I would like to see him gone. Orton and the o-line turned in their worse game of the year against their weakest opponent. Nothing the coach can do about lack of talent.

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:(

I know the playoffs were a longshot, but this is not how you wanna go out.

I don't know... I think watching yet another key loss to the Patriots would actually be a lot worse.

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If you leave a statue in at QB, with a line that cant block....that is on the coach.

The last drive shows what can happen when the QB escapes the pocket....the bad Oline starts to matter less.

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:(

I know the playoffs were a longshot, but this is not how you wanna go out.

I don't know... I think watching yet another key loss to the Patriots would actually be a lot worse.

I know this kind of stuff is personal, but I sincerely don't agree. I was rooting against NE earlier today so that our week 17 game would be important for both teams. Belicheck and Brady are cheating mother####ers, but I wanted to make the playoffs by beating them when it mattered for them, not in a meaningless game. Honking a game to a pathetic 2-win squad is way worse than losing to a 13-win team.

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:(

I know the playoffs were a longshot, but this is not how you wanna go out.

I don't know... I think watching yet another key loss to the Patriots would actually be a lot worse.

I know this kind of stuff is personal, but I sincerely don't agree. I was rooting against NE earlier today so that our week 17 game would be important for both teams. Belicheck and Brady are cheating mother####ers, but I wanted to make the playoffs by beating them when it mattered for them, not in a meaningless game. Honking a game to a pathetic 2-win squad is way worse than losing to a 13-win team.

I guess my hatred for them runs a little deeper. Sadly, losing to that team really bothers me. With nothing on the line, it won't be nearly as bad.

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:(

I know the playoffs were a longshot, but this is not how you wanna go out.

I don't know... I think watching yet another key loss to the Patriots would actually be a lot worse.

I know this kind of stuff is personal, but I sincerely don't agree. I was rooting against NE earlier today so that our week 17 game would be important for both teams. Belicheck and Brady are cheating mother####ers, but I wanted to make the playoffs by beating them when it mattered for them, not in a meaningless game. Honking a game to a pathetic 2-win squad is way worse than losing to a 13-win team.

I guess my hatred for them runs a little deeper. Sadly, losing to that team really bothers me. With nothing on the line, it won't be nearly as bad.

Fair enough. I get where you're coming from.

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To be clear though, this team has a SB-caliber defense. It isn't correct to pin it all on the QB position because our O-line was atrocious today, but this team shows serious promise despite the laughable ending.

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I can't even blame this on Marrone, as much as I would like to see him gone. Orton and the o-line turned in their worse game of the year against their weakest opponent. Nothing the coach can do about lack of talent.

Except for the fact that the O-line is supposed to be his specialty. Marrone got several rookie O-lineman that had lots of talent and they were horrible.

And I'm sorry, but with how badly Orton has sucked for 2 months now, after that atrocious first half by Orton and the line, you HAVE to go to Manuel. At that point, Manuel couldn't possibly have been any worse.

And being down late midway through the 4th and punting on 4th and 1?

Throwing 2 yard passes down 2 scores late in the 4th?

The entire offense and the coaching staff are an embarrassment.

And as great ad the defense is, they have sucked for over a month against the run. They've been dominated in the run for a while now and it was costly.

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I don't blame guys for taking any money they can get, but if Orton had any pride at all, he would decline his player option and re-retire.

All he had to do was be a slightly below average QB that accurately puts the ball into the hands of his playmakers. And he was a total failure.

The last 2 months have been absolute bottom of the barrel garbage from him. It just especially sucks because he hurt the team as much as Manuel did and at least Manuel offered a chance to develop and a chance to do stuff with his feet. I thought going to Orton was the right move at the time and it's hard to second guess the team, but it still sucks that he was as awful as he was.

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I don't blame guys for taking any money they can get, but if Orton had any pride at all, he would decline his player option and re-retire.

All he had to do was be a slightly below average QB that accurately puts the ball into the hands of his playmakers. And he was a total failure.

The last 2 months have been absolute bottom of the barrel garbage from him. It just especially sucks because he hurt the team as much as Manuel did and at least Manuel offered a chance to develop and a chance to do stuff with his feet. I thought going to Orton was the right move at the time and it's hard to second guess the team, but it still sucks that he was as awful as he was.

Sadly what is on the bench is far worse. Yet another team that needs a franchise QB. It's an NFL epidemic right now.

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I don't blame guys for taking any money they can get, but if Orton had any pride at all, he would decline his player option and re-retire.

All he had to do was be a slightly below average QB that accurately puts the ball into the hands of his playmakers. And he was a total failure.

The last 2 months have been absolute bottom of the barrel garbage from him. It just especially sucks because he hurt the team as much as Manuel did and at least Manuel offered a chance to develop and a chance to do stuff with his feet. I thought going to Orton was the right move at the time and it's hard to second guess the team, but it still sucks that he was as awful as he was.

THIS.

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Gotta admit I thought NeckBeard would be better too. Derek Carr looks better. I hate that this sport has become good QB or bust but since that's what it is, wake me up when they get one.

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Gotta admit I thought NeckBeard would be better too. Derek Carr looks better. I hate that this sport has become good QB or bust but since that's what it is, wake me up when they get one.

Become? hasn't it always been that way?

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What happens next year in Buffalo? Do they go after a new QB in FA, draft a new hope, go back to Manuel or keep Orton?

What would you put the chances at of Manuel starting next year?

I'm asking mostly because I have Manuel and Orton in a 32 team league. Won't be keeping Orton as he'd cost $23,000 (almost 20% of the cap) as a franchise player which obviously isn't worth it. Could keep Manuel at $16,600 or could cut him with some roster management (complicated rules with a multiple year contract - in hindsight clearly a mistake). If there's a fair chance they go back to Manuel I probably keep him and cut other players who aren't worth their contracts; I can't cut others if I cut Manuel.

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I can't even blame this on Marrone, as much as I would like to see him gone. Orton and the o-line turned in their worse game of the year against their weakest opponent. Nothing the coach can do about lack of talent.

:confused:

It seems he's done a lot with a little and built the team back from garbage to respectaility in just couple of seasons. Give him an NFL caliber QB and they are a contender....

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Orton has been horrible the last couple of months. He does not have the arm to throw down the field and he is a statue in the pocket. He naturally checks down everything and targets guys 3 to 5 yards from the line of scrimmage. He has missed so many down field throws by miles while guys are so open. There have been times Watkins is college open and Orton can't hit him. It is painful to watch.

There is no way you can enter next year with Orton as the starter as you would be setting yourself up for failure.

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Orton has been horrible the last couple of months. He does not have the arm to throw down the field and he is a statue in the pocket. He naturally checks down everything and targets guys 3 to 5 yards from the line of scrimmage. He has missed so many down field throws by miles while guys are so open. There have been times Watkins is college open and Orton can't hit him. It is painful to watch.

There is no way you can enter next year with Orton as the starter as you would be setting yourself up for failure.

I'm sure he is a stop-gap, as Manual was awful

They will be shopping QBs...

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I can't even blame this on Marrone, as much as I would like to see him gone. Orton and the o-line turned in their worse game of the year against their weakest opponent. Nothing the coach can do about lack of talent.

:confused:

It seems he's done a lot with a little and built the team back from garbage to respectaility in just couple of seasons. Give him an NFL caliber QB and they are a contender....

I'm sick of the idiotic game-day decisions, like constantly punting when they should clearly run a play on 4th down.

Also, I'm not seeing his contribution to the quality of our team. The offense -- which is his area -- is a complete trainwreck. Maybe it would be even worse under a different coach, but I see no reason for believing that.

The main thing, though, is that I think this team can attract a solid coach now that its under new ownership. We only hired Marrone because he was willing to take the job. We can do better than that now and there's no reason why we should settle.

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What happens next year in Buffalo? Do they go after a new QB in FA, draft a new hope, go back to Manuel or keep Orton?

What would you put the chances at of Manuel starting next year?

I'm asking mostly because I have Manuel and Orton in a 32 team league. Won't be keeping Orton as he'd cost $23,000 (almost 20% of the cap) as a franchise player which obviously isn't worth it. Could keep Manuel at $16,600 or could cut him with some roster management (complicated rules with a multiple year contract - in hindsight clearly a mistake). If there's a fair chance they go back to Manuel I probably keep him and cut other players who aren't worth their contracts; I can't cut others if I cut Manuel.

Manuel was pretty awful and he got benched for a reason. My guess is that he has very little chance of starting if Marrone returns next year. Most of us expect the Bills to bring in a QB through trade or free agency, and it's also hard to imagine them not drafting one.

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What happens next year in Buffalo? Do they go after a new QB in FA, draft a new hope, go back to Manuel or keep Orton?

What would you put the chances at of Manuel starting next year?

I'm asking mostly because I have Manuel and Orton in a 32 team league. Won't be keeping Orton as he'd cost $23,000 (almost 20% of the cap) as a franchise player which obviously isn't worth it. Could keep Manuel at $16,600 or could cut him with some roster management (complicated rules with a multiple year contract - in hindsight clearly a mistake). If there's a fair chance they go back to Manuel I probably keep him and cut other players who aren't worth their contracts; I can't cut others if I cut Manuel.

Manuel was pretty awful and he got benched for a reason. My guess is that he has very little chance of starting if Marrone returns next year. Most of us expect the Bills to bring in a QB through trade or free agency, and it's also hard to imagine them not drafting one.

Agreed.

They need to sign one via free agency and draft one.

What will the options be though? Cutler and who else?

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Gotta admit I thought NeckBeard would be better too. Derek Carr looks better. I hate that this sport has become good QB or bust but since that's what it is, wake me up when they get one.

Become? hasn't it always been that way?

Much more so now. Impossible for a modern day Marino not to win more.

It's an unintended consequence of FA/Cap.

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I can't even blame this on Marrone, as much as I would like to see him gone. Orton and the o-line turned in their worse game of the year against their weakest opponent. Nothing the coach can do about lack of talent.

:confused:

It seems he's done a lot with a little and built the team back from garbage to respectaility in just couple of seasons. Give him an NFL caliber QB and they are a contender....

I'm sick of the idiotic game-day decisions, like constantly punting when they should clearly run a play on 4th down.

Also, I'm not seeing his contribution to the quality of our team. The offense -- which is his area -- is a complete trainwreck. Maybe it would be even worse under a different coach, but I see no reason for believing that.

The main thing, though, is that I think this team can attract a solid coach now that its under new ownership. We only hired Marrone because he was willing to take the job. We can do better than that now and there's no reason why we should settle.

Marrone has a solid track record of teams improving under his watch

The offense is stymied by the poor play of the QB

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Theres all this talk of about these certain QB's being available and I kinda doubt most will be.

I don't think RGIII and Bradford will be available like people think. Possibly not even Cutler.

I'm worried we'll be going into next year with the same 3 QB's. And I for one will be hopeful Jeff Tuel has made some huge strides. Because I can't stand Orton or Manual.

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I can't even blame this on Marrone, as much as I would like to see him gone. Orton and the o-line turned in their worse game of the year against their weakest opponent. Nothing the coach can do about lack of talent.

:confused:

It seems he's done a lot with a little and built the team back from garbage to respectaility in just couple of seasons. Give him an NFL caliber QB and they are a contender....

I'm sick of the idiotic game-day decisions, like constantly punting when they should clearly run a play on 4th down.

Also, I'm not seeing his contribution to the quality of our team. The offense -- which is his area -- is a complete trainwreck. Maybe it would be even worse under a different coach, but I see no reason for believing that.

The main thing, though, is that I think this team can attract a solid coach now that its under new ownership. We only hired Marrone because he was willing to take the job. We can do better than that now and there's no reason why we should settle.

Marrone has a solid track record of teams improving under his watch

The offense is stymied by the poor play of the QB

Not really, at least not at this level. QB is obviously a huge issue, but Marrone is still a question mark IMO.

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Gotta admit I thought NeckBeard would be better too. Derek Carr looks better. I hate that this sport has become good QB or bust but since that's what it is, wake me up when they get one.

Become? hasn't it always been that way?

2000 Ravens

2002 Bucs

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I can't even blame this on Marrone, as much as I would like to see him gone. Orton and the o-line turned in their worse game of the year against their weakest opponent. Nothing the coach can do about lack of talent.

:confused:

It seems he's done a lot with a little and built the team back from garbage to respectaility in just couple of seasons. Give him an NFL caliber QB and they are a contender....

I'm sick of the idiotic game-day decisions, like constantly punting when they should clearly run a play on 4th down.

Also, I'm not seeing his contribution to the quality of our team. The offense -- which is his area -- is a complete trainwreck. Maybe it would be even worse under a different coach, but I see no reason for believing that.

The main thing, though, is that I think this team can attract a solid coach now that its under new ownership. We only hired Marrone because he was willing to take the job. We can do better than that now and there's no reason why we should settle.

Marrone has a solid track record of teams improving under his watch

The offense is stymied by the poor play of the QB

He does? Seems to me that his track record says he took an awful Syracuse team and got them to .500. That's about it.

And the offense's problems are about more than just the QB. Buffalo had one of the best run games in the NFL under Gailey and now they are one of the worst. Buffalo had a solid O-line under Gailey and they've steadily declined to the point where they are ranked the worst in the league. The O-line is supposed to be Marrone's thing. He works with them every single day. And they continue to regress and get worse and worse. There are tons of articles, from both a Bills writers and national writers, ridiculing Marrone and his in game management going all the way back to last year.

Among his worst qualities is how aggressively stubborn he is. When called on a bad in game coaching decision he scoffs and claims that the stats back him up. When the stats prove him wrong he makes up some other excuse. His treatment of players is the same. Buffalo has an awful red zone offense and yet Mike Williams remained in his dog house all year despite being one of the best red zone receivers in football. You see, Mike had the audacity to actually speak out and say that he didn't know why he wasn't being used more and thought he could help in the red zone. Marrone didn't like Williams questioning him and that was the end of Mike Williams in Buffalo. And Buffalo's RZ woes continued.

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Should have just stuck with EJ. A worse record would not matter since they missed the playoffs and 28 games played instead of 14 would be a better sample size to judge what you have.

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If Hoyer is available, would he be an upgrade for the Bills?

Maybe... but is he a guy that can get you over the top? I don't think so.

But, FWIW, I'm surprised there isn't more Hoyer/Bills discussions going on. It's a logical fit after rolling with Fitzpatrick and Orton for most of the last 5 years.

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Why the hell is Orton going to start against New England? What is the possible long-term upside here?

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Should have just stuck with EJ. A worse record would not matter since they missed the playoffs and 28 games played instead of 14 would be a better sample size to judge what you have.

They are already judged what they had. I think they've moved on.

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Why the hell is Orton going to start against New England? What is the possible long-term upside here?

Because Marrone gains nothing by starting Manuel.

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Should have just stuck with EJ. A worse record would not matter since they missed the playoffs and 28 games played instead of 14 would be a better sample size to judge what you have.

They are already judged what they had. I think they've moved on.

I'm open to the possibility that maybe a year on the bench might possibly have done EJ some good, but we can sort that out in camp. Otherwise I agree. Manuel was just brutal earlier in the season, and I think the staff saw all they felt they needed to see.

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Why the hell is Orton going to start against New England? What is the possible long-term upside here?

Because Marrone gains nothing by starting Manuel.

He gains by giving Manuel some more playing time which could provide dividends next year.

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I don't know how I feel about all this talk of getting rid of Whaley. I think he's done a very good job rounds 2-7. He's been terrible in round 1, and hasn't been able to find us a competent QB, but there's no doubt this team is on the rise and almost there.

I'm almost hoping everyone sticks around (unless Bill Cowher decides to come back).

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I don't know how I feel about all this talk of getting rid of Whaley. I think he's done a very good job rounds 2-7. He's been terrible in round 1, and hasn't been able to find us a competent QB, but there's no doubt this team is on the rise and almost there.

I'm almost hoping everyone sticks around (unless Bill Cowher decides to come back).

I strongly disagree with the "fire Whaley" talk.

1. Firing your GM while keeping your coach seems completely backwards to me. Who the hell accepts that vacant GM position when he can't hire his own coach? If the Jets are good for anything, it's serving as a negative role model to the rest of the league. How about if we learn from their mistake?

2. No, Whaley hasn't found us a QB, and he deserves a fair shame of blame for that -- both for whiffing on Manuel and failing to draft QBs in other rounds. How many other NFL franchises have failed to find a franchise QB? It's not like he has uniquely failed in this regard. If our QB situation is still a trainwreck in two years, I'll be harsher on this point, but the guy deserves a little time and he's entitled to one miss.

3. Like you said, Whaley did a great job in later rounds and managed to make some really nice waiver claims. The guys he picked up mid-season weren't castoffs from Green Bay or New England -- they came from horrible teams like Tampa and Washington. When you find treasure in those teams' trash, you're doing a good job.

4. I'm still not comfortable with last year's trade for Watkins, but I'll say this for it. First of all, at least Watkins is clearly a quality player -- he's a keeper. Second, Whaley was correct that the first rounder he traded away was going to be a low-ish pick. It's not like we traded away the chance to pick Mariota.

Whaley is the first GM we've had in a while that I really happy about, going to back Tom Donahoe I guess, or maybe Jerry Butler. I can live with keeping Marrone around for another year. I can even live with Hackett coming back if the FO reviews game film and concludes that the problem was with the guy running the plays, not the guy calling them. But firing Whaley and keeping the coaching staff would really piss me off.*

*Edit: To clarify, I don't mean "That's it -- I'm done with this team" pissed off. I'm optimistic about the future of the Bills now that we have new ownership, and if they bring in somebody credible who decides that Marrone should stay, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Just not the move I would make.

Edited by IvanKaramazov
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After reading this article (which I hadn't seen when it was first written), I'm definitely in the keep Whaley camp. But also in the "Get Rid Of All These Old Guys" camp. I think Russ Brandon should be totally gone as well as he clearly is the one that created that mess.

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2014/02/23/sources-disconnect-youngsters-lifers-bills-organization/

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