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Official Tom Brady - bust alert (in 2013)

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3 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

That was a regular season game, not the AFCCG. But since you brought it up, that play involved one of the dumbest rules in the game. Faulk caught the ball past the line to gain and had possession of the ball. But when he got hit, he juggled the ball. By rule, the ball was marked where he reacquired possession of the ball, which was just short. Essentially, that is the one instance where they don’t count forward progress, and it cost NE the game. Playing the odds, that had a higher probability of winning than punting did. But coaches usually coach to keep their jobs instead of winning more games. 

As a side note, that same type of play was called in favor of NE a couple of years ago. Austin Sefarian-Jenkins of the Jets caught a ball, established possession, and started to run for the end zone. He dove for the goal line but got stripped and the ball came out for a split second. According to the rules, he needed to re-establish possession to be considered in control of the football. Since he did not re-establish possession and the ball was moving when he landed on the pylon, it was considered a fumble out of the side of the end zone. It wasn't called a touchdown. It wasn't called out of bounds at the 6 inch line. It wasn't called down by contact at the 1 yard line. It was ruled a fumble by the offense out of the end zone and the ball was given to NE and called a touchback. One of the dumbest rules out there. LINK

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On 1/27/2020 at 12:00 PM, Anarchy99 said:

As a side note, that same type of play was called in favor of NE a couple of years ago. Austin Sefarian-Jenkins of the Jets caught a ball, established possession, and started to run for the end zone. He dove for the goal line but got stripped and the ball came out for a split second. According to the rules, he needed to re-establish possession to be considered in control of the football. Since he did not re-establish possession and the ball was moving when he landed on the pylon, it was considered a fumble out of the side of the end zone. It wasn't called a touchdown. It wasn't called out of bounds at the 6 inch line. It wasn't called down by contact at the 1 yard line. It was ruled a fumble by the offense out of the end zone and the ball was given to NE and called a touchback. One of the dumbest rules out there. LINK

Isn't juggling the ball after having possession technically a fumble? and shouldn't forward progress be determined from where the ball was recovered/repossessed? To me it is no different then if a runner fumbles the ball to the ground, it rolls backward a yard, and then the runner falls on it and gets touched at the spot one yard back. The forward progress is where he recovered it not where he fumbled it, correct? How is juggling the ball in your hands any different than a fumble?

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2 minutes ago, dhockster said:

Isn't juggling the ball after having possession technically a fumble? and shouldn't forward progress be determined from where the ball was recovered/repossessed? To me it is no different then if a runner fumbles the ball to the ground, it rolls backward a yard, and then the runner falls on it and gets touched at the spot one yard back. The forward progress is where he recovered it not where he fumbled it, correct? How is juggling the ball in your hands any different than a fumble?

The problem in this scenario is even when forward progress has stopped, if the player gets pushed backwards and the ball gets juggled they will take away forward progress. In the play with Faulk, he caught the ball, got both feet down, took a step and then got wrapped up. He then got pushed backwards five+ feet and then the ball moved. The ball never came out but they marked him where he was when he got his second hand on the football . . . at about the 29 and a half yard line when he was had advanced to the 31 and a half yard line initially. IMO, I don't see why this type of play shouldn't be called as his forward progress was stopped and down at that point. That's how they call any other play when a player gets pushed back and is not tackled to the ground. I have seen similar plays where the runner was wrapped up and pushed back and the ball was stripped, but in that instance they called the play dead as his forward progress had been stopped. In either play, the ball reached a certain point on the field and the defense pushed the player backwards.

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1 minute ago, Anarchy99 said:

The problem in this scenario is even when forward progress has stopped, if the player gets pushed backwards and the ball gets juggled they will take away forward progress. In the play with Faulk, he caught the ball, got both feet down, took a step and then got wrapped up. He then got pushed backwards five+ feet and then the ball moved. The ball never came out but they marked him where he was when he got his second hand on the football . . . at about the 29 and a half yard line when he was had advanced to the 31 and a half yard line initially. IMO, I don't see why this type of play shouldn't be called as his forward progress was stopped and down at that point. That's how they call any other play when a player gets pushed back and is not tackled to the ground. I have seen similar plays where the runner was wrapped up and pushed back and the ball was stripped, but in that instance they called the play dead as his forward progress had been stopped. In either play, the ball reached a certain point on the field and the defense pushed the player backwards.

If the play was still alive when the ball was knocked loose, then yes, forward progress is determined from the point possession is established again. If, when the ball moved, Faulk had instead dropped the ball, would it have been a fumble? 

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2 minutes ago, dhockster said:

If the play was still alive when the ball was knocked loose, then yes, forward progress is determined from the point possession is established again. If, when the ball moved, Faulk had instead dropped the ball, would it have been a fumble? 

At this point, who knows. It didn't happen that way, so I have no idea how they would have called it. I seem to recall one official ran in and marked it at almost the 32 yard line and a different official ran in and marked it at the 29 and a half. I don't believe they had the booth review system there is now. Even the discussion among the broadcasters was confusing. One thought he made it and the spot was just plain bad. The other thought the refs ruled he never had control of the ball for multiple steps and thus they spotted it where they did at the end of the play. Neither one of those is what they actually called on the play. Things get really confusing on plays when different refs call the same play differently.

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53 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

In the play with Faulk, he caught the ball, got both feet down, took a step and then got wrapped up. He then got pushed backwards five+ feet and then the ball moved. The ball never came out but they marked him where he was when he got his second hand on the football . . . at about the 29 and a half yard line when he was had advanced to the 31 and a half yard line initially. IMO, I don't see why this type of play shouldn't be called as his forward progress was stopped and down at that point.

We're talking about the 4th and 2 play against the Colts in 2009? Here is a video. And another. I don't think these videos support your bolded description.

The ruling was that he juggled the ball and by the time he resecured it, only his left foot was on the ground, which does not constitute possession, which therefore didn't occur until his shoulder hit the ground. Someone else may know what the governing rules were in 2009, but I don't.

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4 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

We're talking about the 4th and 2 play against the Colts in 2009? Here is a video. And another. I don't think these videos support your bolded description.

The ruling was that he juggled the ball and by the time he resecured it, only his left foot was on the ground, which does not constitute possession, which therefore didn't occur until his shoulder hit the ground. Someone else may know what the governing rules were in 2009, but I don't.

Apparently I remember it differently (it was 10 years ago), as I thought there was more time before the receiver got hit after he got his hands on the ball. Even so, it still looks to me like Faulk touched the ball at almost the 31 yard line, juggled it, but then got both feet down on the opposite side of the 30 yard line and possessed the football. After that he got hit and was pushed backwards. Al Michaels initially thought they got it in this video, which is a little clearer than what you posted. It appears (at least to me) that Faulk has the ball for good with both feet on the first down side of the 30 yard line at the 2:23, 3:27, and 3:47 marks in that video. It appears to me his right foot is even with the start of the 0 in the 30 yard line when it hits the ground. So my memory of Faulk having the ball cleanly then getting hit and the ball moving was wrong, but to me it still seems like he had possession of the ball past the first down marker. They spot him down where his body landed, not where he gained possession of the ball after the juggle. 

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6 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

Jets? LOL.

Yeah, this whole where will Brady end up thing is a bit out of control. No one ever really defines what “interest” means. As I posted earlier, some have set the bar for Brady’s services at 3 years guaranteed at $80-90M. There are not 11 teams that would be interested in that. 

It’s going to boil down to whether Brady wants to uproot his whole life or will he take less to stay in NE. And will NE pay him more than he is probably worth (by their calculations). They are still entrenched on going year to year as far as I know. 

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43 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Yeah, this whole where will Brady end up thing is a bit out of control. No one ever really defines what “interest” means. As I posted earlier, some have set the bar for Brady’s services at 3 years guaranteed at $80-90M. There are not 11 teams that would be interested in that. 

It’s going to boil down to whether Brady wants to uproot his whole life or will he take less to stay in NE. And will NE pay him more than he is probably worth (by their calculations). They are still entrenched on going year to year as far as I know. 

Honestly I couldn't say for sure if at this point in their careers whether Brady or Darnold is better - but with the Jets o-line it's tough to imagine Brady being more effective than Darnold who can move well and throw well on the run. Regardless even if we assume Brady would be a better option for 2020 why would the Jets set back Darnold's development while also wasting a season under his rookie contract? The same is likely true for the Giants and to a lesser extent the Redskins.

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10 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

Honestly I couldn't say for sure if at this point in their careers whether Brady or Darnold is better - but with the Jets o-line it's tough to imagine Brady being more effective than Darnold who can move well and throw well on the run. Regardless even if we assume Brady would be a better option for 2020 why would the Jets set back Darnold's development while also wasting a season under his rookie contract? The same is likely true for the Giants and to a lesser extent the Redskins.

No chance of that happening. Anyone suggesting that is an idiot 

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1 hour ago, Anarchy99 said:

Yeah, this whole where will Brady end up thing is a bit out of control.

It’s going to boil down to whether Brady wants to uproot his whole life or will he take less to stay in NE.

 

The spot where it wouldn't be as much of an uproot would be L.A.  Something his wife might also like. 

 

"DraftKings gives the Patriots -335 odds to resign Brady and the Los Angeles Chargers fall in as the second most likely with +400 odds.

The Indianapolis Colts are listed as the third most likely team to sign Brady with +900 odds."

DraftKings lists the Tennessee Titans as the next favorite team with +1600 odds to sign Brady before the 2020 season.

Edited by Leroy Hoard

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1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

There is no chance that Brady ends up with the Jets, but I reserve the right to laugh my ### off if I end up being wrong.

It's fascinating to wonder which moron is the source of this speculation.  Aside from Lev Bell (and an incumbent QB who has looked decent thusfar) the Jets have squadoosh on their offensive unit.  Brady would get murdalized behind that line.

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It's definitely silly season up here in the Boston area when listening to talk radio.

Latest yesterday was that there was a report that Brady and family were visiting a high profile school for his son in the Nashville area.

Also, rumors of Miami being a spot heating up.

Peter King talking up TB.

Depending on the day, it seems like Brady could have a huge market or zero market at all. 

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Tampa makes a lot of sense because that's where guys usually go to cash in after they don't have it anymore. 

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2 hours ago, kyoun1e said:

Also, rumors of Miami being a spot heating up.

This is the one I really want to happen but makes so little sense. I've heard it a few times already though.

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This topic is the greatest harvest of low hanging fruit for clicks and viewers that there is this days. Any rumor or hot take will get a ton of interest from NE fans or haters a like. 

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26 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

This topic is the greatest harvest of low hanging fruit for clicks and viewers that there is this days. Any rumor or hot take will get a ton of interest from NE fans or haters a like. 

And yet the odds are still heavy for him to return to Pats.

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9 minutes ago, Leroy Hoard said:

And yet the odds are still heavy for him to return to Pats.

That's not a hot take and won't get eyeballs to read that opinion. But look at how much buzz was generated by throwing stuff against the wall and coming up with crazy new destinations for Brady. Way more interesting to debate where else he would go other than NE. Everyone likes playing the role of detective in a steamy mystery.

As for the 11 teams having interest in him, as I mentioned, they don't spell out what "interest" means. For a one year, $5 million deal, the Jets would probably want Brady as a back up and a mentor to Darnold. That would still be an interest. A completely different question is which teams would guarantee 3 years at around $100 million to have Brady be their starter. That list will be nowhere near 11 teams. I think there are probably several teams that may have some starter level interest in Brady that Brady may have no interest in. I doubt he would go to a rebuilding team that is years away from contending . . . no matter how much money they throw at him. I think there probably are not that many potential options other than NE, and I still don't thing that adding Brady will move the needle much for one of the other 31 teams.

There was extended talk on the radio yesterday that NE has probably done their research and already given their best offer, take it or leave it. No matching other best offers, no additional negotiating, etc. NE needs an answer before free agency hits so they can figure out how to build their roster and figure out what QBs are in play if not Brady. So the hot take yesterday was the black and white Brady in the tunnel picture meant that he wasn't going to get what he wanted in NE and it was time to move on. Who knows. Anyone can concoct anything at this point.

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Multiple reports indicating NE is willing to pay Brady in excess of $30M. 

Wow. That would be shocking to me.

Don't see how he gets paid AND he gets weapons around him.

 

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1 hour ago, kyoun1e said:

Multiple reports indicating NE is willing to pay Brady in excess of $30M. 

Wow. That would be shocking to me.

Don't see how he gets paid AND he gets weapons around him.

 

They have lots of cap space, 30M for a QB isn't that expensive, if they signed someone like Dalton they'd prob end up paying like 20M or more anyway.

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30 minutes ago, Tool said:

They have lots of cap space, 30M for a QB isn't that expensive, if they signed someone like Dalton they'd prob end up paying like 20M or more anyway.

Not exactly. They have $42 million in cap space. If they keep Brady for $30 million, he has a roll over cap hit of $7.5 million. They have a boatload of free agents. I’m not great at math, but I don’t think that qualifies as “tons of cap space.”

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9 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

My prediction - Brady announces his return tonight. 

Sounded like he was alluding to this in his nterview w Jim gray today. Announcement or some other reveal by halftime

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39 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

or let him walk, sign a guy like Mariota for about half that and spend the money elsewhere 

And get about 5 less wins

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1 hour ago, Anarchy99 said:

Not exactly. They have $42 million in cap space. If they keep Brady for $30 million, he has a roll over cap hit of $7.5 million. They have a boatload of free agents. I’m not great at math, but I don’t think that qualifies as “tons of cap space.”

Yeah, having a hard time seeing a scenario where he gets paid and he gets the necessary weapons. 

Brady + H. Henry + AJ Green. Don't think that math computes.

Stidham + M. Mariota + H. Henry + AJ Green could work.

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1 hour ago, Anarchy99 said:

Not exactly. They have $42 million in cap space. If they keep Brady for $30 million, he has a roll over cap hit of $7.5 million. They have a boatload of free agents. I’m not great at math, but I don’t think that qualifies as “tons of cap space.”

# I saw was $49 but in any case, that's enough.  Also 13.5M cap hit if Brady leaves.

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Just now, Dr. Dan said:

I strongly disagree they have 5 less wins with a different qb and better wrs and TEs. Not with that defense and Belichick. Sure, theyd have 5 less wins in 2019 but we arent talking 2019. Brady was pretty bad at the end of the season. If that is any sign of things to come in 2020 and beyond I think it's very possible that Mariota is a better option for teams out there. 

Well I also strongly disagree, so we'll have to settle on disagreeing on this one. I think we differ on what Brady has left and that's fine. Mariota is a decent backup QB, that's it. 

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1 hour ago, bostonfred said:

My prediction - Brady announces his return tonight. 

You called it. Looks like back w NE.

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1 hour ago, Dr. Dan said:

I took that commercial as he is still playing in 2020. never eluded to where 

Yeah you’re prob right. I read too much into it.

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Or he was going back to NE all along, and all the "He's signing with the Dolphins...no the Chargers...no the Raiders...no the Jets!" was just the best viral marketing campaign ever.

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Quote

NFL Network's Michael Giardi reports impending free agent Tom Brady is not "demanding" $30 million annually from the Patriots.

Brady has often settled for below-market deals to ensure the Patriots have had the cap space necessary to address other needs, though he may be looking to cash in at this late juncture in his career. However, the bigger priority for Brady is adding "weapons" as the 42-year-old apparently didn't feel his supporting cast was strong enough in 2019. It's hard to argue with that assessment as the Patriots' pass-catching corps this past season was among the weakest he's had in New England, featuring veteran slot receiver Julian Edelman (who was noticeably slowed by a slew of late-season injuries) and not much else. Staying in Foxboro still makes the most sense for Brady from a football standpoint, though he could leverage the Pats by taking meetings elsewhere when free agency begins in mid-March.

SOURCE: Michael Giardi on Twitter

Feb 3, 2020, 9:27 AM ET

 

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He will be back in New England. Would be shocked....and really disappointed for the New England faithful if he ends his career anywhere else.

 

Just feels.....wrong.

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In defense of NE . . . they traded for Josh Gordon the year before (but he took another turn for the dark side). They signed Antonio Brown (who made Gordon look like a Boy Scout). They drafted N'Keal Harry with a first round pick (but he got hurt). Brady himself is said to have handpicked Sanu and they went out and got him (and he got hurt and struggled to pick up the offense). They initially brought in Demaryius Thomas (and swapped him out on the roster for AB). They were in on Adam Humphries but he picked the Titans instead. They were in on Jared Cook, but he wouldn't sign if Gronk was still in the picture and Gronk retired too late to sign Cook.

It's unfortunate his boy Jules got beat up and could barely finish the season. But not every move works out and not everyone stays healthy. Not every season has a Disney ending. But Brady refused to show up for anything that wasn't mandatory. (How was your trip to China and India?) He flat out refused to work with any of their younger receivers. And he got at least one day a week off (if not more) from practice for load management, family time, or nagging injuries. News flash Tom . . . things tend to go better when you actually practice with your new teammates. 

So yeah, sure. NE lacked weapons. But it's not like they didn't make an effort to get Brady weapons.  And it's not like he put forth max effort to get everyone on the same page. Brady has done more for the franchise than I could possibly list. But last year he was a certified, 100%, Grade A . . . D-I-V-A. Sure, he's earned the right . . . but he was way too mouthy and needed to man up and just play football.

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On 2/2/2020 at 3:17 PM, kyoun1e said:

Multiple reports indicating NE is willing to pay Brady in excess of $30M. 

Wow. That would be shocking to me.

Don't see how he gets paid AND he gets weapons around him.

 

20 mill over the table. 10 more delivered from Kraft's limo window.

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2 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

In defense of NE . . . they traded for Josh Gordon the year before (but he took another turn for the dark side). They signed Antonio Brown (who made Gordon look like a Boy Scout). They drafted N'Keal Harry with a first round pick (but he got hurt). Brady himself is said to have handpicked Sanu and they went out and got him (and he got hurt and struggled to pick up the offense). They initially brought in Demaryius Thomas (and swapped him out on the roster for AB). They were in on Adam Humphries but he picked the Titans instead. They were in on Jared Cook, but he wouldn't sign if Gronk was still in the picture and Gronk retired too late to sign Cook.

It's unfortunate his boy Jules got beat up and could barely finish the season. But not every move works out and not everyone stays healthy. Not every season has a Disney ending. But Brady refused to show up for anything that wasn't mandatory. (How was your trip to China and India?) He flat out refused to work with any of their younger receivers. And he got at least one day a week off (if not more) from practice for load management, family time, or nagging injuries. News flash Tom . . . things tend to go better when you actually practice with your new teammates. 

So yeah, sure. NE lacked weapons. But it's not like they didn't make an effort to get Brady weapons.  And it's not like he put forth max effort to get everyone on the same page. Brady has done more for the franchise than I could possibly list. But last year he was a certified, 100%, Grade A . . . D-I-V-A. Sure, he's earned the right . . . but he was way too mouthy and needed to man up and just play football.

True some moves didn't work out although Brown and Sanu were after season started and a rook was never gonna do much year 1.  I think your comments about him 'flat out refusing to work with his younger receivers' is something you heard on a talk show or something but as a long time Pats fan, which I think you are, I don't see how you could lend much credibility to something like that.  And the dude is old, he needs time off for load management and nagging injuries, which is probably good for him and the team in the long run, seems like you want to bash him for anything.

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4 minutes ago, Tool said:

True some moves didn't work out although Brown and Sanu were after season started and a rook was never gonna do much year 1.  I think your comments about him 'flat out refusing to work with his younger receivers' is something you heard on a talk show or something but as a long time Pats fan, which I think you are, I don't see how you could lend much credibility to something like that.  And the dude is old, he needs time off for load management and nagging injuries, which is probably good for him and the team in the long run, seems like you want to bash him for anything.

I have heard / read the quotes about Brady not wanting to work with younger players with my own ears and eyes. Brady said it’s not his job and they need to get up to speed on their time, not his. I just listed multiple moves to try to get Brady help and more weapons. Isn’t adding guys during the season still adding weapons? 

BB has set the bar in recent years that the receivers are going to get swapped out. This isn’t news. But Brady has opted to no longer be the first guy in the door and is no longer in town a week before OTA’s start. That would be great if he still had Gronk and Amendola or Moss and Welker. Guys that know the system and guys who are already on the same page as Brady. But when you start adding pieces like Hogan, Cooks, Patterson, Harry, Sanu, Gordon, etc. there are going to be hurdles and not being there is a problem. Sure, taking a day off of practice once in a while isn’t going to kill anyone. But it sounded like there were weeks Brady barely practiced. 

That’s a different question. Does he get props for hitting it out and playing on Sunday? Or should they have given him a couple games off and would they have been better off in the long run?

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1 hour ago, Anarchy99 said:

I have heard / read the quotes about Brady not wanting to work with younger players with my own ears and eyes. Brady said it’s not his job and they need to get up to speed on their time, not his. I just listed multiple moves to try to get Brady help and more weapons. Isn’t adding guys during the season still adding weapons? 

BB has set the bar in recent years that the receivers are going to get swapped out. This isn’t news. But Brady has opted to no longer be the first guy in the door and is no longer in town a week before OTA’s start. That would be great if he still had Gronk and Amendola or Moss and Welker. Guys that know the system and guys who are already on the same page as Brady. But when you start adding pieces like Hogan, Cooks, Patterson, Harry, Sanu, Gordon, etc. there are going to be hurdles and not being there is a problem. Sure, taking a day off of practice once in a while isn’t going to kill anyone. But it sounded like there were weeks Brady barely practiced. 

That’s a different question. Does he get props for hitting it out and playing on Sunday? Or should they have given him a couple games off and would they have been better off in the long run?

Think you’re interpreting those quotes in your own way. I’m sure you’re not alone in doing that but the idea that Brady won’t work his receivers is absurd. 

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7 minutes ago, Tool said:

Think you’re interpreting those quotes in your own way. I’m sure you’re not alone in doing that but the idea that Brady won’t work his receivers is absurd. 

He's not alone. Brady flat out said he was tired of working with rookies and didn't want to. It was in context, and very odd. Certainly frustration was voiced. 

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5 minutes ago, Tool said:

Think you’re interpreting those quotes in your own way. I’m sure you’re not alone in doing that but the idea that Brady won’t work his receivers is absurd. 

There’s a difference between having to work with his receivers and being willing to work extra in off hours with people. Brady made it clear that he wasn’t going to work outside of practice with the kids or the new guys. With Harry, he wished him well when he came back and hoped he could get himself up to speed quickly and eventually contribute, but he wasn’t going to sit Harry down and go over plays and he wasn’t going to work with him one on one outside of practice. Brady essentially would work with whichever receivers were in the receiving line for drills and whomever lined up with the offense flto practice plays. How that gets described and what the semantics are will be open to interpretation. But Brady wasn’t exactly gushing to have to work harder to bring them along. Even when Antonio Brown showed up, it was the backup QBs and other coaches that stayed until midnight trying to get Brown up to speed. Does that make Brady a good guy? A bad guy? Neither?

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