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JohnnyU

O. J Howard TE Alabama

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2 hours ago, Grahamburn said:

I don't think the Bucs dislike OJ.  Signing Gronk and trading O.J. don't have to be subsequent transactions.  In fact, with Gronk's injury history and one year contract, it makes a ton of sense for them to keep Howard. 

I'm concerned this is what they're going to do. Howard is still on his rookie contract, so he's really cheap for TB. Looking at the article @Faust posted that they'd have to be "blown away" by an offer, and reading some reports that they'd want a 2nd rounder for him (all speculation of course) makes me wonder if Howard will continue to be stuck because TB values him as a hypothetical trade commodity more than they seem to as a player. That may annoy me (and other fantasy owners) but the thing is, TB can afford to just keep him for this year. Folks like LaCanfora are saying "trade imminent" but Schefter has been saying since yesterday (and this morning) that there are "zero" plans to trade Howard right now and that no trades are lined up.

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2 hours ago, Grahamburn said:

I don't think the Bucs dislike OJ.  Signing Gronk and trading O.J. don't have to be subsequent transactions.  In fact, with Gronk's injury history and one year contract, it makes a ton of sense for them to keep Howard. 

Keep em both.  Nickname them "Champagne and OJ" and ball out.

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Don't know if this is true, but just read the Patriots had their choice of OJ Howard or a 4th for Gronk and chose the 4th. :shock:

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2 hours ago, Grahamburn said:

OJ and the 14 for Trent and the 2.  Done deal. 

Thank God Bruce isn't running the show any more. 

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6 minutes ago, ffmail4me said:

Don't know if this is true, but just read the Patriots had their choice of OJ Howard or a 4th for Gronk and chose the 4th. :shock:

Could be a cap move more than an indictment on OJ (lol). New England has very little money to spend. 

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3 hours ago, Grahamburn said:

OJ and the 14 for Trent and the 2.  Done deal. 

Washington isn't Houston. (I'm still one of the bigger fans of OJ but you don't trade Chase Young for him)

17 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Could be a cap move more than an indictment on OJ (lol). New England has very little money to spend. 

Maybe, but Howard isn't expensive right now.

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In my dynasty PPR league, I just acquired Gronk in trade (gave up Slayton in return) and I do have OJ Howard.  Perhaps it's my being as optimistic but I'm really hoping that Howard would go to Colts, which they certainly could use him to upgrade their TE / passing offense.

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48 minutes ago, ffmail4me said:

Don't know if this is true, but just read the Patriots had their choice of OJ Howard or a 4th for Gronk and chose the 4th. :shock:

It's NOT true.

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2 hours ago, FreeBaGeL said:

He was definitely considered around the #5/#6 TE by the consensus entering last year.

It's easy to forget now that his trend was pretty much right on par for elite TEs at the time (elite per target metrics, increasing target volume) and that it was a particularly weak time for TEs beyond the top few (Henry/Ebron/Njoku were the next guys up so it's not like people were passing on George Kittle).

Then came Arians and a catastrophic year.  But to rail against that ranking now is hindsight.  He was valued similarly to where guys like Kelce and Ertz were the year before their big breakout despite weaker competition at the time.

Right, but I was replying to the statement that he was top 3-4 by everyone. It was pretty clearly kelce/kittle/ertz/engram and  then about 5 guys you could list after that as reasonable guesses, heck some people probably had trey burton ranked up in that area. It’s not hindsight to say top 3-4 would have been a bold ranking for Howard. While he was certainly in the conversation in the next tier I wouldn’t call it “consensus” by any means. He was trending the right way but lots of reasons to pump the brakes as well. I just looked back (page 9-11) and there’s some worry. 

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29 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

Right, but I was replying to the statement that he was top 3-4 by everyone. It was pretty clearly kelce/kittle/ertz/engram and  then about 5 guys you could list after that as reasonable guesses, heck some people probably had trey burton ranked up in that area. It’s not hindsight to say top 3-4 would have been a bold ranking for Howard. While he was certainly in the conversation in the next tier I wouldn’t call it “consensus” by any means. He was trending the right way but lots of reasons to pump the brakes as well. I just looked back (page 9-11) and there’s some worry. 

Ah, gotcha.

He was clearly behind Kelce/Kittle/Ertz.

I wouldn't say he was clearly behind Engram.  His startup ADP was actually slightly ahead of Engram.  I remember having that choice in several startups last year and choosing Howard over Engram at the end of the 4th in two of them (took Engram in the 3rd to diversify).

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1 hour ago, FreeBaGeL said:

Ah, gotcha.

He was clearly behind Kelce/Kittle/Ertz.

I wouldn't say he was clearly behind Engram.  His startup ADP was actually slightly ahead of Engram.  I remember having that choice in several startups last year and choosing Howard over Engram at the end of the 4th in two of them (took Engram in the 3rd to diversify).

In terms of dynasty startup yes he was likely at 4-5, I was looking at it more in terms of going into last year and drafting for redraft or last season rankings. 

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2 minutes ago, Snorkelson said:

In terms of dynasty startup yes he was likely at 4-5, I was looking at it more in terms of going into last year and drafting for redraft or last season rankings. 

Ah yeah my mistake.  Sometimes I get stuck in the dynasty mindset and forget that's not always what we're talking about this time of year.

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5 hours ago, -OZ- said:

Washington isn't Houston. (I'm still one of the bigger fans of OJ but you don't trade Chase Young for him)

Maybe, but Howard isn't expensive right now.

The Patriots have zero cap. If Gronk came back with his 10M, they would have to shed 8M to accommodate. Yes OJ is relatively cheap as a first still on his rookie deal, but the Pats can’t just add the guy without deleting elsewhere. 

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3 minutes ago, Edgar said:

The Patriots have zero cap. If Gronk came back with his 10M, they would have to shed 8M to accommodate. Yes OJ is relatively cheap as a first still on his rookie deal, but the Pats can’t just add the guy without deleting elsewhere. 

It's kind of amazing that this is possible while losing the GOAT. 

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21 hours ago, Grahamburn said:

OJ and the 14 for Trent and the 2.  Done deal. 

Bill O'Brien works for the Texans tho

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If TB actually wants a second rounder for Howard then BOB is their only hope. 

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32 minutes ago, DAG said:

If TB actually wants a second rounder for Howard then BOB is their only hope. 

If you had a need at TE you wouldn't draft Howard with a 2nd round pick in this draft?  He still has two years left on his deal and showed in 2018 (in an offense that schemed for him) that he could be a dominant player.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Grahamburn said:

If you had a need at TE you wouldn't draft Howard with a 2nd round pick in this draft?  He still has two years left on his deal and showed in 2018 (in an offense that schemed for him) that he could be a dominant player.

I would, sure. But it doesn’t seem to be the market price for Howard. I hope I’m wrong; he needs out of TB yesterday. I’m just assuming he’s stuck there until next year unless NE clears a bit of cap space or TB accepts a lesser return. 

Edited by DAG

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13 hours ago, -OZ- said:

It's kind of amazing that this is possible while losing the GOAT. 

Losing Brady is one of the reasons they have no cap room. They lost $13.5 in cap space when Brady walked. With Antonio Brown and some other cuts, they are eating $24 million in dead money. 

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55 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Losing Brady is one of the reasons they have no cap room. They lost $13.5 in cap space when Brady walked. With Antonio Brown and some other cuts, they are eating $24 million in dead money. 

Ok, I clearly need a better understanding of either the cap or what happened with Brady. I thought he was a UFA, which would mean no cap issue with him leaving.  Of course, if he had stayed wouldn't the cap hit be even higher?

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2 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

Ok, I clearly need a better understanding of either the cap or what happened with Brady. I thought he was a UFA, which would mean no cap issue with him leaving.  Of course, if he had stayed wouldn't the cap hit be even higher?

To limit the cap hit on the last contract Brady signed, NE added a dummy year to his contract (the 2020 season) even though the contract itself guaranteed the contract would end after the 2019 season. So NE had until the first day of the 2020 season (March 17th I believe) to negotiate an extension with Brady, if not he became an UFA. Since they didn't get a new deal done, they immediately had to take a $13.5 million cap hit charge for the previously unaccounted for cap balance. Had they negotiated a new deal, NE would have been able to continue to roll over some of that cap hit and reallocate it as part of the new deal. 

As for your question, yes he would have had a higher cap number if he resigned with the team, but they could have gotten more creative cap accounting wise. If they had come to a one year extension, then they could have split that leftover cap hit over two seasons. I believe if they agreed on a multi-year deal, then they could have played around with it even more. Teams do stuff like that all the time, essentially kicking the cap hit down the road. But at some point teams still have to account for it, and this was the year NE had to eat the cap hit.

On the flip side for NE, they get out of their dead cap situation and get off of some high priced contracts after this season and are set to have $106 million in cap space heading into 2021 (less whatever they use the rest of way this year). Between this year and next year, they are also projected to have 25 draft picks. They also have most of their draft class from last year that they essentially redshirted and have a ton of players that went on IR last year coming back. Between those two groups, IIRC, that's like 12-15 players. The point being, NE has a chance to completely reshape their team, get much younger, and go free agent shopping next year. So they will likely be in a down year this year, but they should be restocked and ready to roll again in 2021.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Anarchy99 said:

Losing Brady is one of the reasons they have no cap room. They lost $13.5 in cap space when Brady walked. With Antonio Brown and some other cuts, they are eating $24 million in dead money. 

nm, you just answered it above. 

Edited by beef

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1 hour ago, Anarchy99 said:

To limit the cap hit on the last contract Brady signed, NE added a dummy year to his contract (the 2020 season) even though the contract itself guaranteed the contract would end after the 2019 season. So NE had until the first day of the 2020 season (March 17th I believe) to negotiate an extension with Brady, if not he became an UFA. Since they didn't get a new deal done, they immediately had to take a $13.5 million cap hit charge for the previously unaccounted for cap balance. Had they negotiated a new deal, NE would have been able to continue to roll over some of that cap hit and reallocate it as part of the new deal. 

As for your question, yes he would have had a higher cap number if he resigned with the team, but they could have gotten more creative cap accounting wise. If they had come to a one year extension, then they could have split that leftover cap hit over two seasons. I believe if they agreed on a multi-year deal, then they could have played around with it even more. Teams do stuff like that all the time, essentially kicking the cap hit down the road. But at some point teams still have to account for it, and this was the year NE had to eat the cap hit.

On the flip side for NE, they get out of their dead cap situation and get off of some high priced contracts after this season and are set to have $106 million in cap space heading into 2021 (less whatever they use the rest of way this year). Between this year and next year, they are also projected to have 25 draft picks. They also have most of their draft class from last year that they essentially redshirted and have a ton of players that went on IR last year coming back. Between those two groups, IIRC, that's like 12-15 players. The point being, NE has a chance to completely reshape their team, get much younger, and go free agent shopping next year. So they will likely be in a down year this year, but they should be restocked and ready to roll again in 2021.

Thanks, that's helpful.

It seems like the bold shouldn't be allowed, but presumably other teams do similar accounting moves and it benefits everyone.

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Just now, -OZ- said:

Thanks, that's helpful.

It seems like the bold shouldn't be allowed, but presumably other teams do similar accounting moves and it benefits everyone.

There are so many loopholes in the CBA or other NFL rules that need to be closed, but they are there and smarter teams will exploit them. For example, NE has been setting up one year contracts with free agents for 10-12 years, but they usually added in a second year team option. Because of that, they got to space out the cap hit over two seasons. More importantly, even though they opted not to pick up the player's option, they STILL earned a compensatory pick. So they basically got the option of keeping or cutting a player, but they also got the benefit of some salary cap relief and a compensatory pick on top of it.

There are so many provisions and exceptions in the salary cap rules that you need an MBA in Finance to fully comprehend them. Moving cap dollars into dummy years. Converting salaries to bonuses to free up cap space. Embedding incentives that may or may not be met to monkey with cap dollars. Carrying over cap dollars from one year to the next. Designating cuts before or after June 1st. Setting up out clauses in contracts. Installing "guaranteed money" that isn't actually guaranteed. And starting a few years ago, creatively trading bad contracts to avoid dead cap money (ie, trading a player with a terrible contract to avoid taking a massive cap hit AND a second round pick to a team with cap space to burn for a 7th round pick). This is the stuff that doesn't regularly make the news, but it's what goes on in dark alleys and late nights in team facilities all year long.

I just wish the media talking heads / writers / sports reporters were better informed on this stuff. That way, they would not suggest big name trades and free agent signings that have no chance of happening. Using NE as an example, the Patriots only have $1-2 million in cap space currently. Yet in a recent article I saw, the writer suggested that the Patriots should sign Cam Newton while also trading for OBJ. That's like trying to put 50 gallons of water into a one gallon jug. Then the writer adder in that NE is doing nothing and how come they aren't making any splashy moves to improve the team? But they get paid to get clicks, not to be fully knowledgeable. So why dabble in reality when a fantasy universe is much more interesting.

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42 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

There are so many loopholes in the CBA or other NFL rules that need to be closed, but they are there and smarter teams will exploit them. For example, NE has been setting up one year contracts with free agents for 10-12 years, but they usually added in a second year team option. Because of that, they got to space out the cap hit over two seasons. More importantly, even though they opted not to pick up the player's option, they STILL earned a compensatory pick. So they basically got the option of keeping or cutting a player, but they also got the benefit of some salary cap relief and a compensatory pick on top of it.

There are so many provisions and exceptions in the salary cap rules that you need an MBA in Finance to fully comprehend them. Moving cap dollars into dummy years. Converting salaries to bonuses to free up cap space. Embedding incentives that may or may not be met to monkey with cap dollars. Carrying over cap dollars from one year to the next. Designating cuts before or after June 1st. Setting up out clauses in contracts. Installing "guaranteed money" that isn't actually guaranteed. And starting a few years ago, creatively trading bad contracts to avoid dead cap money (ie, trading a player with a terrible contract to avoid taking a massive cap hit AND a second round pick to a team with cap space to burn for a 7th round pick). This is the stuff that doesn't regularly make the news, but it's what goes on in dark alleys and late nights in team facilities all year long.

I just wish the media talking heads / writers / sports reporters were better informed on this stuff. That way, they would not suggest big name trades and free agent signings that have no chance of happening. Using NE as an example, the Patriots only have $1-2 million in cap space currently. Yet in a recent article I saw, the writer suggested that the Patriots should sign Cam Newton while also trading for OBJ. That's like trying to put 50 gallons of water into a one gallon jug. Then the writer adder in that NE is doing nothing and how come they aren't making any splashy moves to improve the team? But they get paid to get clicks, not to be fully knowledgeable. So why dabble in reality when a fantasy universe is much more interesting.

To be fair, I've read a lot of primer stuff about football contracts. There was a great article I came across recently. I totally understood it while I was reading it. Trying to explain it after, though, sent my head spinning.

It's like copyright law. It sounds fun until you realize it's all contracts, licensing, and numbers. At least these numbers are generally round, but they're still a regular PITA to understand. 

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3 minutes ago, rockaction said:

To be fair, I've read a lot of primer stuff about football contracts. There was a great article I came across recently. I totally understood it while I was reading it. Trying to explain it after, though, sent my head spinning.

It's like copyright law. It sounds fun until you realize it's all contracts, licensing, and numbers. At least these numbers are generally round, but they're still a regular PITA to understand. 

I never studied anything involving the law or contracts, but I generally understand how NFL contracts and team salary cap reporting works (for the most part). But NBA contracts and salary cap implications? Not a chance. I could probably try to decipher it better, but from a distance it seems like there are way more wrinkles than even the NFL has.

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Speaking Thursday, Bucs GM Jason Licht claimed he was not looking to trade O.J. Howard following the team's acquisition of Rob Gronkowski. 

"Why wouldn't you want to have many weapons at that position?," Licht said. "We have an excellent tight end group right now." That's correct, but with Cameron Brate's bloated salary also in the mix, the Bucs have too much of a good thing. Howard has been on the block for some time now, but The Athletic's Jeff Howe reports the asking price has been too high. Gronk's acquisition won't make unloading Howard for fair compensation any easier since teams now know they are desperate. 

SOURCE: Adam Schefter on Twitter 

Apr 23, 2020, 5:35 PM ET

 

 

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If Tampa hangs onto OJ, his value is worthless. Please trade him!

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3 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

I never studied anything involving the law or contracts, but I generally understand how NFL contracts and team salary cap reporting works (for the most part). But NBA contracts and salary cap implications? Not a chance. I could probably try to decipher it better, but from a distance it seems like there are way more wrinkles than even the NFL has.

Madden franchise mode contracts are fairly realistic structure  honestly. That’s where I got a majority of my understanding.

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Buccaneers exercised TE O.J. Howard's fifth-year team option for 2021. 

There were rumors Howard would be dealt over draft weekend, but those obviously ceased to materialize. Instead the Bucs will carry Rob Gronkowski, Cam Brate, and Howard, the latter who's now set to make $6.2 million in 2021, into the regular season. Tampa Bay opted for the sixth-highest rate (28%) of 12 personnel (one running back, two tight ends) in 2019 and that approach will likely continue despite the addition of fifth-round fantasy sleeper Tyler Johnson (6’1/206). Howard infamously fell flat (34/459/1) in 14 appearances last year, making it impossible to expect much from the 25-year-old across from Gronk this upcoming season. Howard will remain a bet-on-talent late-round addition in offseason leagues for his sheer athleticism at the position..

RELATED: 

Rob Gronkowski

SOURCE: Pewter Report on Twitter

Apr 29, 2020, 2:33 PM ET

 

 

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I hope Gronk doesn't hurt his back (not really) :scared:  (own multiple shares of Howard, zero of Gronk) 

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O.J. HOWARD TE, TAMPA BAY BUCCANEERS

Coach Bruce Arians said 12 personnel will be the Buccaneers' base offense.

12 personnel refers to formations featuring two TEs on the field. This would indicate Rob Gronkowski and one of O.J. Howard or Cam Brate should join Chris Godwin, Mike Evans as well as Ronald Jones or Ke'Shawn Vaughn in the starting lineup. The news is a damper on Godwin's hopes of again commanding a large slot role, but he's obviously a good enough talent to still make the most out of his opportunities from the outside. The real question is whether Howard or Brate will be able to rise up and secure a full-time starting role, or if we'll see an annoying committee system for that position. There should still be plenty of three-WR and two-RB sets utilized, but clearly the Bucs are attempting to play to their strengths by leaning into their embarrassment of riches at the TE position.

SOURCE: Greg Auman on Twitter

Jun 4, 2020, 11:25 AM ET

 

 

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NBC Sports' Peter King predicted that O.J. Howard will lead the Buccaneers in snaps at tight end.

This prediction came after spending the last week in Tampa Bay observing practices and interviewing members of the organization. The prediction is within the range of outcomes, but even if it were true, Rob Gronkowski could be the more productive fantasy player. Gronk remains a total wild card in the middle rounds of fantasy drafts as a borderline TE1, although this prediction makes selecting Gronk even more risky. Howard wasn't able to turn in TE1 numbers without Gronk last year despite major yardage totals from Jameis Winston, so he's at best a low-end TE2 entering 2020.

RELATED: 

Rob Gronkowski

, Cameron Brate

SOURCE: NBC Sports

Aug 17, 2020, 1:50 AM ET

 

 

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Such a great TE talent, chronically underutilized for whatever reasons. 

I still think he will break out, perhaps with his next team. 

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41 minutes ago, Truebluey said:

Such a great TE talent, chronically underutilized for whatever reasons. 

I still think he will break out, perhaps with his next team. 

How talented can he truly be?  In three seasons, hes' never had more than 34 receptions, and has never had 600 yards receiving.  At this point, I have to believe that he is what we've seen, pajama olympics performances notwithstanding.

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The Athletic's Greg Auman has been impressed with O.J. Howard's training camp performance. 

Labeling Howard a camp "riser," Auman believes Howard has looked "more like the scoring threat that totaled 11 touchdowns in his first two years in Tampa" than last year's underachiever. Coach Bruce Arians has claimed the Bucs' base offense will feature two tight ends, and Auman does believe they will feature plenty of two-TE looks. Howard is an intriguing late-round freebie in 12-14 team leagues.  

SOURCE: The Athletic 

Aug 24, 2020, 9:48 PM ET

 

 

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He is obviously a great talent, but I will believe when I see it.  I know Brady loves throwing to the tight end, but he had plenty of success in the first half of his career without having a top TE then, and Arians' offense is infamous for ignoring the tight end.  I could see Howard and Gronk both getting a bunch of TD's in the red zone, but it's hard to imagine any TE on this team getting a lot of catches and yards.

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Posted (edited)
Quote

O.J. Howard (Achilles') is out for the remainder of Week 4 against the Chargers.

Howard was carted to the locker room in the fourth quarter and was quickly ruled out for the game. That's not good. Achilles' injuries are ones that can be diagnosed immediately. Hopefully it's not a season-ending tear. We'll learn soon. If he's out, Rob Gronkowski is slightly more appealing as a TE2 streamer, but he's not moving well and hasn't been involved in three of four games.

- Rotoworld

 

Edited by The Frankman

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Yeah, he was solid this year. That's really too bad.

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21 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Yeah, he was solid this year. That's really too bad.

He really was.  Howard was beginning to mesh well with Brady.  

Rough year to be a Buc receiver.   

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ESPN's Adam Schefter reports O.J. Howard is "likely done for the season" after Achilles injury.

Howard left Week 4 suddenly and was quickly ruled out. A torn Achilles will end his fourth NFL season, one that was showing some signs of life while working alongside Rob Gronkowski. The former first-round pick will be playing for a contract when he returns in 2021, and it's not a full guarantee that he'll be ready for training camp. With Howard sidelined, Gronk has more appeal as a TE2 streamer. Howard is averaging 38 yards through 42 career games.

RELATED: 

Rob Gronkowski

SOURCE: Adam Schefter on Twitter

Oct 4, 2020, 8:39 PM ET

 

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Buccaneers TE O.J. Howard suffered a torn Achilles' in Week 4 against the Chargers.

Howard, 25, will spend the entire offseason recovering for his contract year in 2021. He was showing signs of life, reaching 36 yards in 3-of-4 games with Tom Brady, but will ultimately be replaced by Rob Gronkowski and Cameron Brate down the stretch. Gronk is an appealing streamer after playing 90% of the team's snaps in the last two games.

RELATED: 

Rob Gronkowski

SOURCE: Ian Rapoport on Twitter

Oct 6, 2020, 10:44 AM ET

 

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4 hours ago, hispeedthinmint said:

Anything to see with Brate?

O.J. was getting ~5 targets a game.  My guess would be Brate sees a couple and Gronk sees a couple.  I wouldn't expect much more as Brate isn't nearly the blocker O.J. was.  They have another TE, Anthony Auclair, who probably takes more of Brate's snaps when he returns because he's a better blocker.

If Arians/Leftwich were smart they'd run Brate out of the slot with Godwin out, but they aren't.  They run "their" offense, and don't adjust to personnel.  Old school.

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