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RB Alex Collins, SEA (2 Viewers)

efactor said:
On the last TD, both Allen and Collins were in the game and Allen gets the carry from the 6 inch line.  Collins went in motion.  Very odd play call.  Hard to criticize since it worked, but sucks for us Collins owners.  

John definitely loves him some Buck...............
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The Ravens use that formation with Buck at FB and Collins at RB at the GL all the time. Unfortunately it goes to Allen like 80% of the time. Usually it's just a FB dive, and sometimes they toss a sweep to Collins.

They like to mix it up from that look, going back to last season (and perhaps years before with other personnel) so I don't think it's going away unfortunately.

 
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hamsterdam said:
The Ravens use that formation with Buck at FB and Collins at RB at the GL all the time. Unfortunately it goes to Allen like 90% of the time. Usually it's just a FB dive, and sometimes they toss Collins a sweep.

The like to mix it up from that look, going back to last season (and perhaps years before with other personnel) so I don't think it's going away unfortunately.
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Thanks.  I don't watch many Ravens games, but happened to see that play on the red zone channel.  Was happy to see Collins in there and figured he would get a shot at an easy one.

Oops

 
Walking Boot said:
If memory serves, Collins was in there solo, then there was either a timeout or penalty and the new playcall had them bring Allen in too on that one.
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Yep, the Broncos called a timeout. Also, on the play Allen scored his receiving TD, Collins got shaken up on the play before and they pulled him. Not very conclusive, but you could assume he would have stayed on the field if he hadn't taken a hit.

 
Will he be in the doghouse after that fumble?

Hard to say as the end of the half was more catered toward Allen.

Devestating fumble for what could have been a 2 TD first half.

 
Mind blown.

Got the goal line touch and fumbled it away. 

Probably gets closee to 20 carries, but Allen got a lot of those touches after the fumbleZ

 
jm192 said:
He didn’t draft Collins.
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I kept him in my redraft. traded for 1, 2, 3 pick in dynasty.

I'm encouraged because they still used him after the fumble. Allen looked terrible in pass blocking and cannot run. there is no one else. Collins has the benefit of seeing lots of volume because no one else can be as effective 

 
He can possibly be what we want him to be, but the fumbles that crop up periodically are just not going to be conducive to the coaching staff wanting to entirely lean on him.

 
He is an RB2/Flex...what most people drafted him as.  Problem is...when you draft that RB2 you are hoping for RB1 upside sometimes and you just aren't getting it with Collins.  Either due to game flow/coaching giving it to Buck, or fumbles or whatever.

Thankfully, for now, Im getting that upside out of Michel and Collins can be my flex.  Unfortunately...that is to my RB1 David Johnson...so Im on the low end with RB1 and RB2 with he and Collins.  Why oh why did I pass on Kamara (no PPR...but still...)

 
Yesterday was an up and down tragedy for Collins owners.  First you see him get the call on a short yardage TD pass and then he actually gets a goal line carry.  Saints be praised!  Harbaugh is going to start using him as a bell cow back!... but before you can even celebrate this news, Collins fumbles at the goal line.

He probably needs to go a full 6 games without even the shadow of a fumble before he gets another goal line carry.

I will never understand that, BTW.  If Favre had been benched after every stupid INT you would have converted a HoF QB to a journeyman at best.

 
I'm more inclined to sell if I can move him in a package to upgrade at RB.  Don't know how eager the world is to buy.

 
Brisco54 said:
He probably needs to go a full 6 games without even the shadow of a fumble before he gets another goal line carry.

I will never understand that, BTW.  If Favre had been benched after every stupid INT you would have converted a HoF QB to a journeyman at best.
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Coaches can handle an occasional turnover as long as the guy is making plays for his team (like Favre).  But Collins is an average NFL RB.  He has more talent than Allen but that doesn't offset that he is 5 times more likely to fumble than Allen (Collins 8 fumbles in 320 touches, Allen 2 fumbles in 430 touches with 0 in his last 200 touches)

So you should be comparing Collins to an average NFL QB who turns the ball over a lot.  Someone like..... Fitzpatrick.

 
Synthesizer said:
Coaches can handle an occasional turnover as long as the guy is making plays for his team (like Favre).  But Collins is an average NFL RB.  He has more talent than Allen but that doesn't offset that he is 5 times more likely to fumble than Allen (Collins 8 fumbles in 320 touches, Allen 2 fumbles in 430 touches with 0 in his last 200 touches)

So you should be comparing Collins to an average NFL QB who turns the ball over a lot.  Someone like..... Fitzpatrick.
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As a Collins owner, ouch. That one hurt. Why must you wound me so?

 
Synthesizer said:
Coaches can handle an occasional turnover as long as the guy is making plays for his team (like Favre).  But Collins is an average NFL RB.  He has more talent than Allen but that doesn't offset that he is 5 times more likely to fumble than Allen (Collins 8 fumbles in 320 touches, Allen 2 fumbles in 430 touches with 0 in his last 200 touches)

So you should be comparing Collins to an average NFL QB who turns the ball over a lot.  Someone like..... Fitzpatrick.
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First, how he compares to the rest of the NFL is not relevant.  It only matters how he compares to the guy that replaces him.

Allen has a 3.0 YPC despite facing nickel and dime defenses for most of his carries.  Collins has 3.8 YPC despite facing 7 and 8 in the box on most of his runs.  These are not small sample size anomalies.  Collins has consistently been over a half yard better per carry than Allen on the Ravens.

I just went back and watched the highlights on nfl.com of the last three games.  I only saw one play that went more than 12 yards with Allen on the field.  All the rest of the long plays came with Collins opening up the field by causing the safeties to cheat up.   This despite the fact that I think Aleen has out touched Collins on the year.  

You don't think Collins has talent.  You might be right.  But the film shows that the defenses respect him a lot more than Allen, and that opens up the passing game.

So the choice is:

1.  An offense that cant run at all and cant pass more than 12 yards, but protects the ball.

2.  An offense that can both run and effectively throw deep, but coughs up the ball once every third game.

Second, Fitz being replaced by Winston is not a good example at all because he was the established back up only getting the start at the beginning of the season because of the suspension.  Collins is the established starter getting benched twice for single mistake in games for a player the management thought was less talented.  If you want a fair comp, you have to ask why Fitz was not benched for whoever the 3rd string QB was after his second pick vs Pitt.

 
Brisco54 said:
First, how he compares to the rest of the NFL is not relevant.  It only matters how he compares to the guy that replaces him.

Allen has a 3.0 YPC despite facing nickel and dime defenses for most of his carries.  Collins has 3.8 YPC despite facing 7 and 8 in the box on most of his runs.  These are not small sample size anomalies.  Collins has consistently been over a half yard better per carry than Allen on the Ravens.

I just went back and watched the highlights on nfl.com of the last three games.  I only saw one play that went more than 12 yards with Allen on the field.  All the rest of the long plays came with Collins opening up the field by causing the safeties to cheat up.   This despite the fact that I think Aleen has out touched Collins on the year.  

You don't think Collins has talent.  You might be right.  But the film shows that the defenses respect him a lot more than Allen, and that opens up the passing game.

So the choice is:

1.  An offense that cant run at all and cant pass more than 12 yards, but protects the ball.

2.  An offense that can both run and effectively throw deep, but coughs up the ball once every third game.

Second, Fitz being replaced by Winston is not a good example at all because he was the established back up only getting the start at the beginning of the season because of the suspension.  Collins is the established starter getting benched twice for single mistake in games for a player the management thought was less talented.  If you want a fair comp, you have to ask why Fitz was not benched for whoever the 3rd string QB was after his second pick vs Pitt.
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Allen himself has an 18 yard catch and a 15 yard catch.  The very first Ravens highlight of the year is a 30 yard pass with Allen in the game.  A few highlights later is an 8 yard TD pass with Allen on the field, then another 12 yard TD pass with Allen on the field.  I stopped watching the highlights after that.

Fitz has gotten replaced everywhere he has played because of turnovers.

 
TartanLion said:
He can possibly be what we want him to be, but the fumbles that crop up periodically are just not going to be conducive to the coaching staff wanting to entirely lean on him.
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He has one of the worst career fumble rates in the league and this year has only gotten worse thus far.  2 in 53 touches (3-54 if you count the botched exchange in week 1.  He'll be lucky to be in the league in two years if he doesn't fix that.  Hoping to buy Allen low and flip him after he puts up a decent game.

 
Brisco54 said:
First, how he compares to the rest of the NFL is not relevant.  It only matters how he compares to the guy that replaces him.

Allen has a 3.0 YPC despite facing nickel and dime defenses for most of his carries.  Collins has 3.8 YPC despite facing 7 and 8 in the box on most of his runs.  These are not small sample size anomalies.  Collins has consistently been over a half yard better per carry than Allen on the Ravens.

I just went back and watched the highlights on nfl.com of the last three games.  I only saw one play that went more than 12 yards with Allen on the field.  All the rest of the long plays came with Collins opening up the field by causing the safeties to cheat up.   This despite the fact that I think Aleen has out touched Collins on the year.  

You don't think Collins has talent.  You might be right.  But the film shows that the defenses respect him a lot more than Allen, and that opens up the passing game.

So the choice is:

1.  An offense that cant run at all and cant pass more than 12 yards, but protects the ball.

2.  An offense that can both run and effectively throw deep, but coughs up the ball once every third game.

Second, Fitz being replaced by Winston is not a good example at all because he was the established back up only getting the start at the beginning of the season because of the suspension.  Collins is the established starter getting benched twice for single mistake in games for a player the management thought was less talented.  If you want a fair comp, you have to ask why Fitz was not benched for whoever the 3rd string QB was after his second pick vs Pitt.
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So give him 9 touches/game?

 
I said this earlier in the thread but I'll say it again.  I severely misread the RB situation in Baltimore when I drafted Collins in the 5th round.   There is not much I can do about it now but to hope things change for the better cause right now there really is no market for him.

 
Godsbrother said:
I said this earlier in the thread but I'll say it again.  I severely misread the RB situation in Baltimore when I drafted Collins in the 5th round.   There is not much I can do about it now but to hope things change for the better cause right now there really is no market for him.
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Agree - but what RB2's are producing.  If I passed on Collins on draft night I would have taken Drake.

 
Brisco54 said:
First, how he compares to the rest of the NFL is not relevant.  It only matters how he compares to the guy that replaces him.

Allen has a 3.0 YPC despite facing nickel and dime defenses for most of his carries.  Collins has 3.8 YPC despite facing 7 and 8 in the box on most of his runs.  These are not small sample size anomalies.  Collins has consistently been over a half yard better per carry than Allen on the Ravens.
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Isn't Allen the short yardage/goal line back?

That would skew his YPC and is a good example of why YPC is a flawed metric.

 
Synthesizer said:
Allen himself has an 18 yard catch and a 15 yard catch.  The very first Ravens highlight of the year is a 30 yard pass with Allen in the game.  A few highlights later is an 8 yard TD pass with Allen on the field, then another 12 yard TD pass with Allen on the field.  I stopped watching the highlights after that.

Fitz has gotten replaced everywhere he has played because of turnovers.
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Sorry, as noted, I did not look at the first week of highlights, just the last three.

 
Overthinking the fumble, it’s that Harb likes Buck and wants to give him chances in the game, and that’s pretty much it. Collins will have good games, but if you start him he may not. Maybe like Howard/Cohen right now.

 
shadyridr said:
Yep the RBs going in that vicinity were Collins, Drake, Henry, Ajayi... yuck

In hindsight, the wise move was to draft another position and then take one of the pass catching backs later like Thompson or White.
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Yup the Hines Cohen and white owners got good performance for cheap. So much for year of the rb

 
I am so happy to be out of this guy.  Traded him weeks ago for Gordon in the day Gordon was traded to the pats.  Gordon owner wanted out so bad.  He asked for Collins.  I was like “SURE!” 

Then the fumble at the gl to go along with usage issues and now a knee injury.  Peace, Irish dancer.  It was good while it lasted!  

 
Lovely. The old double whammy of Collins going down and my underdog opponent having Buck Allen in his flex who will now most likely be a workhorse

 
TartanLion said:
Lovely. The old double whammy of Collins going down and my underdog opponent having Buck Allen in his flex who will now most likely be a workhorse
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Yup.  Buck will get 20+ carries and 5+ catches BC he’s harbaugh’s guy.  Coach lives him and his 2 ypc lol. 

 
rickyg said:
Yup.  Buck will get 20+ carries and 5+ catches BC he’s harbaugh’s guy.  Coach lives him and his 2 ypc lol. 
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This is where you lose me. YPC is a flawed metric,. probably deeply so. 

The reality is probably closer Collins being a big upside guy but Allen is probably (definitely) better at real football. At least enough so that Collins's role will never grow beyond what it is. YPC simply doesn't tell the whole story.

I agree with those who say the Ravens don't have their RB of the future on the roster at the moment. And when they get that guy, whoever it turns out to be, Collins will be cut before Allen.

 
Allen is NOT better at 'real football' than Alex Collins.

I was a Collins owner last year and I've watched Javorius Allen for years. That man is NOT better at football than Alex Collins and the fact someone said that I find blasphemous. 

 
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NFL.com's Tom Pelissero reports Alex Collins' (knee) absence from Thursday's practice was "precautionary."

Per Pelissero, the Ravens want Collins "ready to rip" against the Browns. Collins was downgraded from limited to DNP on Thursday, which usually signals an absence. If Collins does indeed suit up, he will find himself on the RB2/3 borderline thanks to his fumbling issues and Buck Allen's goal-line work.

Source: Tom Pelissero on Twitter 

Oct 4 - 4:58 PM
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I've got Him in a dynasty league where I've got Gurley, Bell and Collins.  I'm firing him up this week because I don't have another option.  Hoping for the best.  Hoping he doesn't wind up with one of these recent Kenyen Drake games.  

I'm actively seeking out RB depth.  I don't want to sell low.  But, I'm also not in love with his situation.  If he doesn't get a TD, he isn't going to break double digits.  And even with a TD, there's no promises he's in the double digits.

 
jm192 said:
I've got Him in a dynasty league where I've got Gurley, Bell and Collins.  I'm firing him up this week because I don't have another option.  Hoping for the best.  Hoping he doesn't wind up with one of these recent Kenyen Drake games.  

I'm actively seeking out RB depth.  I don't want to sell low.  But, I'm also not in love with his situation.  If he doesn't get a TD, he isn't going to break double digits.  And even with a TD, there's no promises he's in the double digits.
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I have Boyd in at flex over him right now. That could change...

 
Starting Chris Thompson in his place (PPR).  That goal line fumble probably capped his short term value.   

 
I honestly think Collins is going to be fine. Allen is not going to take over. Harbaugh knows Allen's role, he's good at it, and I don't think he'll screw around with putting any more on his plate.

I think the problem with A. Collins owners are expectations. He was drafted as a RB2. He may deliver RB2 value here and there, but realistically, he's probably a perfect flex.

I'm ok with that, but I bet others aren't. And if you aren't, I'd advise trading him after he plunges into the endzone a couple times (when he's probably on everyone's benches).

 
He's a solid RB2 just as he was last year.  He looks good at times but then fumbles and his usage becomes unpredictable.  Puts up about 60 yards on average with an occasional TD.  It's just a bit difficult to see waiver wire guys get a full workload for 2-3 games and put up RB1 numbers (Conner, White, Peterson, Bernard, etc)

 
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