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The Russia Investigation: Mueller - "Over the course of my career, I've seen a number of challenges to our democracy.The Russian govt's effort to interfere in our election is among the most serious."

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Just now, Max Power said:

Where are you getting 2014 from?  Phones manufactured in 2011 and 2014 can still be used in 2016.

Why are you getting bent out of shape over this? So little is known about Misfud and these phones could shed some light on it.  If Flynn's team think there is something on that phone that exonerates him, let them ask for it. 

It says it in the motion - the claim is it's "relevant to the defense of Mr. Flynn, and specifically to the Oconus Lures and agents that western intelligence tasked against him likely as early as 2014... ."

I thought I was being pretty light above, I try to not to put smiley emojis or LOL's when responding to posts.

Hey if the judge thinks it's relevant, so be it, let's see.

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37 minutes ago, Max Power said:

I'll wait to see what the current investigations reveal.  

Q?

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5 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

It says it in the motion - the claim is it's "relevant to the defense of Mr. Flynn, and specifically to the Oconus Lures and agents that western intelligence tasked against him likely as early as 2014... ."

I thought I was being pretty light above, I try to not to put smiley emojis or LOL's when responding to posts.

Hey if the judge thinks it's relevant, so be it, let's see.

I missed the 2014 bit, but they must think there is something to it.

Do we know if Mueller had access to these phones during his investigation?  Misfud seems to be a real wildcard in all of this.  Is he a Russian Agent as Comey suggested? 

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1 hour ago, Max Power said:

I missed the 2014 bit, but they must think there is something to it.

Do we know if Mueller had access to these phones during his investigation?  Misfud seems to be a real wildcard in all of this.  Is he a Russian Agent as Comey suggested? 

I have no idea. I’m guessing a bemused DOJ will be responding with answers to these questions soon. - I think Mueller’s filings stated that Mifsud was in communication with actual Russian intelligence agents and assets, they never said he was himself an agent.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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3 hours ago, Max Power said:

Barr/Durham

Will point out that Barr showed his cards when he misled about the Mueller report. He showed them again when he interfered with the whistleblower. He’s not a serious DOJ. He’s a political hack, and an abuser of his office, which is supposed to be independent and held to high ideals. He operates more like a Soviet minister.

Edited by Mr. Ham
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13 hours ago, Max Power said:

I'll wait to see what the current investigations reveal.  

This president has shown you his predilection for criminality his entire life and you need more evidence? Yeah, let's not jump to any hasty conclusions here.

You've made a huge error in judgment backing this guy.

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14 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I have no idea. I’m guessing a bemused DOJ will be responding with answers to these questions soon. - I think Mueller’s filings stated that Mifsud was in communication with actual Russian intelligence agents and assets, they never said he was himself an agent.

Mueller said he had “ties” to Russian intelligence, and “maintained those ties” in 2016, but didn’t elaborate beyond that.  

When asked why he didn’t charge Mifsud for lying to the FBI, after throwing the book at every other individual in the Trump orbit, Mueller stonewalled and obfuscated.  The framing of George P’s relationship with Mifsud, the report is very careful to note,  was that George had been operating under the impression Mifsud was somehow affiliated with Russian govt, not that Mifsud was an actual Russian agent.  In testimony, Mueller didn’t even know what Fusion GPS was.  

There needs to be a real investigation of how this moronic conspiracy theory cane to dominate the news cycle for years.  I’m doubtful that Barr/Durham will deliver.  

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1 hour ago, ren hoek said:

Mueller said he had “ties” to Russian intelligence, and “maintained those ties” in 2016, but didn’t elaborate beyond that.  

When asked why he didn’t charge Mifsud for lying to the FBI, after throwing the book at every other individual in the Trump orbit, Mueller stonewalled and obfuscated.  The framing of George P’s relationship with Mifsud, the report is very careful to note,  was that George had been operating under the impression Mifsud was somehow affiliated with Russian govt, not that Mifsud was an actual Russian agent.  In testimony, Mueller didn’t even know what Fusion GPS was.  

There needs to be a real investigation of how this moronic conspiracy theory cane to dominate the news cycle for years.  I’m doubtful that Barr/Durham will deliver.  

Do you think the bolded is possible because the Russia election interference investigation wasn't really all about the Steele Dossier like the alt-right media and Russian trolls told you? That the investigators may have had other, far more credible sources and methods? 

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3 hours ago, ren hoek said:

Mueller said he had “ties” to Russian intelligence, and “maintained those ties” in 2016, but didn’t elaborate beyond that.  

When asked why he didn’t charge Mifsud for lying to the FBI, after throwing the book at every other individual in the Trump orbit, Mueller stonewalled and obfuscated.  The framing of George P’s relationship with Mifsud, the report is very careful to note,  was that George had been operating under the impression Mifsud was somehow affiliated with Russian govt, not that Mifsud was an actual Russian agent.

Well he did elaborate. I am glad to dig it up but IIRC in the report and the indictments the specific ties are laid out, glad to do that if helpful.

If we ask - well what if Mifsud was either a neutral individual or say someone who had communicated with western intel agencies in the past, then what? Well, Mifsud still told Papa what he told him. Papadopoulas still lied about him. That lying still helped Mifsud escape a full knowledgeable interview the first time and a follow-up interview after that. And Papa talking to the AUS ambassador still happened and that discussion still ended up being a firecracker that lit the investigation after sure enough the DNC/Podesta emails were hacked and released.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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Kyle Cheney

@kyledcheney

·

7m

JUST IN: Judge Howell says DOJ improperly redacted a recent filing to prohibit the House from learning the identities of two witnesses who *didn't* testify to the grand jury. She also adds this curious bit questioning why Mueller didn't seek to subpoena these unnamed witnesses.

 

https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1184917869005545473 - relevant quotes from judge in tweet

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13 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Kyle Cheney

@kyledcheney

·

7m

JUST IN: Judge Howell says DOJ improperly redacted a recent filing to prohibit the House from learning the identities of two witnesses who *didn't* testify to the grand jury. She also adds this curious bit questioning why Mueller didn't seek to subpoena these unnamed witnesses.

 

https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1184917869005545473 - relevant quotes from judge in tweet

Ha, so if I understand this correctly the DOJ has been treating people who didn't testify at GJ to be within redactable names under "matters before the grand jury"? That's rich.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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9 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Well he did elaborate. I am glad to dig it up but IIRC in the report and the indictments the specific ties are laid out, glad to do that if helpful.

If we ask - well what if Mifsud was either a neutral individual or say someone who had communicated with western intel agencies in the past, then what? Well, Mifsud still told Papa what he told him. Papadopoulas still lied about him. That lying still helped Mifsud escape a full knowledgeable interview the first time and a follow-up interview after that. And Papa talking to the AUS ambassador still happened and that discussion still ended up being a firecracker that lit the investigation after sure enough the DNC/Podesta emails were hacked and released.

If Misfud was neutral, than this dies real quick. 

If he communicated with western intelligence prior to talking to papadopoulos, than there is a lot to be examined. 

I think it may boil down to if Misfud was instructed to do something and or paid to do something. 

If western agencies said "hey go poke this guy and see what happens" I think that is a massive difference from them saying "you will be paid to relay this exact information"

DOJ has the phones so hopefully we will figure it out.

Now if Jim Jordan's claims are accurate (which I dont know, but also haven't been shown they aren't) Mifsud lied to investigators aka obstructed justice and was never charged. So why is that? 

Misfud was apparently under surveillance by Italian intelligence prior to all of this. Why???

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7 minutes ago, Biff84 said:

Talk about a lucky break - Mitch worked to lift sanctions on the companies associated with Deripaska and then they invested in a plant in Kentucky. What a coincidence!

It's all a back room deal to help the working and middle class.

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Wasn't the IG report coming out today or is that going to be after 5pm Friday where they hopefully hope no one will notice it?

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1 hour ago, Biff84 said:

Talk about a lucky break - Mitch worked to lift sanctions on the companies associated with Deripaska and then they invested in a plant in Kentucky. What a coincidence!

Mitch should be flipped on his back.

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On 10/17/2019 at 11:42 PM, Max Power said:

If Misfud was neutral, than this dies real quick. 

If he communicated with western intelligence prior to talking to papadopoulos, than there is a lot to be examined. 

I think it may boil down to if Misfud was instructed to do something and or paid to do something. 

If western agencies said "hey go poke this guy and see what happens" I think that is a massive difference from them saying "you will be paid to relay this exact information"

DOJ has the phones so hopefully we will figure it out.

Now if Jim Jordan's claims are accurate (which I dont know, but also haven't been shown they aren't) Mifsud lied to investigators aka obstructed justice and was never charged. So why is that? 

Misfud was apparently under surveillance by Italian intelligence prior to all of this. Why???

This era is truly exhausting. Trump and his proxies have behaved badly right out in the open. They’ve broken laws, and acted corruptly, and gaslighted, and lied consistently and often, and attacked our institutions and press when cornered, and misled about facts, or abused the legal process to obstruct justice and bury (sometimes illegally) information about multiple criminal cases that implicate them — and you’re still allowing them to lead you down new tangential paths rather than confronting what is apparent on the face of it. The Administration has accepted assistance from foreign governments, and self dealt, all in the name of a proven lifetime conman who has abused the US legal and tax system for decades while serially abusing women; all while leaving a wake of bankruptcy and destruction. I’d ask that you stop doing backflips while carrying his water. 

Edited by Mr. Ham

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On 10/17/2019 at 3:52 PM, Sinn Fein said:

Kyle Cheney

@kyledcheney

·

7m

JUST IN: Judge Howell says DOJ improperly redacted a recent filing to prohibit the House from learning the identities of two witnesses who *didn't* testify to the grand jury. She also adds this curious bit questioning why Mueller didn't seek to subpoena these unnamed witnesses.

 

https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/status/1184917869005545473 - relevant quotes from judge in tweet

Follow - up - the two witnesses who did not testify before the Grand Jury were Don McGahn and Trump Jr.

 

 

Zoe Tillman@ZoeTillman ·4m


NEW: Per government filing unsealed on judge's order, former White House counsel Don McGahn and Donald Trump Jr. did not testify before the Mueller grand jury https://documentcloud.org/documents/6502875-10-20-19-Unredacted-Doc-Grand-Jury.html

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25 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Follow - up - the two witnesses who did not testify before the Grand Jury were Don McGahn and Trump Jr.

 

 

Zoe Tillman@ZoeTillman ·4m


NEW: Per government filing unsealed on judge's order, former White House counsel Don McGahn and Donald Trump Jr. did not testify before the Mueller grand jury https://documentcloud.org/documents/6502875-10-20-19-Unredacted-Doc-Grand-Jury.html

News like this makes me question the Mueller investigation again. Why didn’t they make these people testify? Why didn’t they demand that the President testify? Why wasn’t his report more determinative? I just don’t get it. 

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As much as I disliked Kenneth Starr, he would not have put up with the White House’s nonsense. Starr would have gone before TV cameras and said “President Trump refuses to testify. Don McGahn refuses to testify. Don Jr. won’t testify. I’m trying to investigate this and they won’t cooperate. What are they hiding?” 

Mueller could have changed the history of the last 2 years with one little press conference. 

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Just a guess on my part - but there was a sense - maybe from DOJ - that Mueller needed to hurry up.  Going to court to force McGahn and Trump Jr, and Trump to testify would have significantly lengthened the inquiry.  (It would still be going on).

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Just now, Sinn Fein said:

Just a guess on my part - but there was a sense - maybe from DOJ - that Mueller needed to hurry up.  Going to court to force McGahn and Trump Jr, and Trump to testify would have significantly lengthened the inquiry.  (It would still be going on).

Not if he had gone to the public and said “I don’t know why they’re fighting this, I want to finish my investigation and they’re preventing it. Do you guys want me to get to the truth or not?” 

Thats how you fight legal challenges and delays. You get public opinion on your side. If Mueller had done that, Trump would have been forced to give up all attempts at delay, the same way he was forced to change his mind on Dorrell this week. 

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Not if he had gone to the public and said “I don’t know why they’re fighting this, I want to finish my investigation and they’re preventing it. Do you guys want me to get to the truth or not?” 

Thats how you fight legal challenges and delays. You get public opinion on your side. If Mueller had done that, Trump would have been forced to give up all attempts at delay, the same way he was forced to change his mind on Dorrell this week. 

Did you see Mueller's testimony?

Guy lost a little bit of his fastball...

 

And, Trump then, is very different than Trump now.  Trump then was feisty, and have the backing of the entire GOP.  Trump today is a shell of his former self - he got beat by Turkey!  The GOP support - mostly as a result of Syria - was/is falling apart - and even more so on the Doral issue.

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17 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

Did you see Mueller's testimony?

Guy lost a little bit of his fastball...

 

And, Trump then, is very different than Trump now.  Trump then was feisty, and have the backing of the entire GOP.  Trump today is a shell of his former self - he got beat by Turkey!  The GOP support - mostly as a result of Syria - was/is falling apart - and even more so on the Doral issue.

Eh, I don't think that's it. Mueller had an ace team.

I think if you want a puzzle piece to put in it's the Corsi indictment. Just before the 2018 election he was facing indictment. Right after in came Whitaker immediately and he was never indicted. Things wound up pretty quickly after that.

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17 hours ago, timschochet said:

News like this makes me question the Mueller investigation again. Why didn’t they make these people testify? Why didn’t they demand that the President testify? Why wasn’t his report more determinative? I just don’t get it. 

Quote

 

Renato Mariotti‏Verified account @renato_mariotti

If a witness agrees to be interviewed by FBI agents, as McGahn did, typically prosecutors won’t put him in the grand jury to testify unless there’s a concern that he will later change his story. As for Trump Jr., this suggests to me that his lawyers said he would take the Fifth.

The fact that Trump Jr. didn’t testify before the grand jury suggests to me that his lawyer said he would take the Fifth if called to testify. In my experience, in that situation federal prosecutors won’t force him to take the stand and take the Fifth for a variety of reasons.

12:35 PM - 20 Oct 2019

The McGahn piece makes sense. They got everything they wanted from him.

The JUNIOR piece should be a big damned deal. 

It also means that Barr has overredacted to protect the President and his son.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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Quote

The investigation did not always yield admissible information or testimony, or a complete picture of the activities undertaken by subjects of the investigation. Some individuals invoked their Fifth Amendment right against compelled self-incrimination and were not, in the Office’s judgment, appropriate candidates for grants of immunity. 

- Mueller report.

Just one other thought on this: by calling someone before the GJ whatever happened was legitimately redactable. If not, like McGahn, it could all be plugged into the report. It's possible that Jr's Fifth plea has either been improperly redacted or otherwise withheld by Barr.

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22 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

Just a guess on my part - but there was a sense - maybe from DOJ - that Mueller needed to hurry up.  Going to court to force McGahn and Trump Jr, and Trump to testify would have significantly lengthened the inquiry.  (It would still be going on).

There certainly was pressure from Barr on this

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BREAKING

Justice Dept. Is Said to Open Criminal Inquiry Into Its Own Russia Investigation

The move is likely to open the attorney general to accusations that he is trying to deliver a political victory for President Trump.

 

WASHINGTON — For more than two years, President Trump has repeatedly attacked the Russia investigation, portraying it as a hoax and illegal even months after the special counsel closed it. Now, Mr. Trump’s own Justice Department has opened a criminal investigation into how it all began.

Justice Department officials have shifted an administrative review of the Russia investigation closely overseen by Attorney General William P. Barr to a criminal inquiry, according to two people familiar with the matter. The move gives the prosecutor running it, John H. Durham, the power to subpoena for witness testimony and documents, to impanel a grand jury and to file criminal charges.

The opening of a criminal investigation is likely to raise alarms that Mr. Trump is using the Justice Department to go after his perceived enemies. Mr. Trump fired James B. Comey, the F.B.I. director under whose watch agents opened the Russia inquiry, and has long assailed other top former law enforcement and intelligence officials as partisans who sought to block his election.

Mr. Trump has made clear that he sees the typically independent Justice Department as a tool to be wielded against his political enemies. That view factors into the impeachment investigation against him, as does his long obsession with the origins of the Russia inquiry. House Democrats are examining in part whether his pressure on Ukraine to open investigations into theories about the 2016 election constituted an abuse of power.

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26 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

BREAKING

Justice Dept. Is Said to Open Criminal Inquiry Into Its Own Russia Investigation

The move is likely to open the attorney general to accusations that he is trying to deliver a political victory for President Trump.

 

WASHINGTON — For more than two years, President Trump has repeatedly attacked the Russia investigation, portraying it as a hoax and illegal even months after the special counsel closed it. Now, Mr. Trump’s own Justice Department has opened a criminal investigation into how it all began.

Justice Department officials have shifted an administrative review of the Russia investigation closely overseen by Attorney General William P. Barr to a criminal inquiry, according to two people familiar with the matter. The move gives the prosecutor running it, John H. Durham, the power to subpoena for witness testimony and documents, to impanel a grand jury and to file criminal charges.

The opening of a criminal investigation is likely to raise alarms that Mr. Trump is using the Justice Department to go after his perceived enemies. Mr. Trump fired James B. Comey, the F.B.I. director under whose watch agents opened the Russia inquiry, and has long assailed other top former law enforcement and intelligence officials as partisans who sought to block his election.

Mr. Trump has made clear that he sees the typically independent Justice Department as a tool to be wielded against his political enemies. That view factors into the impeachment investigation against him, as does his long obsession with the origins of the Russia inquiry. House Democrats are examining in part whether his pressure on Ukraine to open investigations into theories about the 2016 election constituted an abuse of power.

Of course

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6 minutes ago, Punxsutawney Phil said:

What's going on here?

The investigation into how the Russia Collusion probe started is turning into a criminal case based on the evidence uncovered. 

NYT implying its politically motivated while not having any facts. 

 

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41 minutes ago, Max Power said:

The investigation into how the Russia Collusion probe started is turning into a criminal case based on the evidence uncovered

Can you summarize the evidence uncovered?

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8 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

Can you summarize the evidence uncovered?

To my knowledge nothing has been released yet. This shift to criminal inquiry is based on Barr and Durham's  findings so far. 

If I'm speculating, they probably found something in Italy. Possibly Misfud gave them some new information. 

I know Durham did ask for some more bodies for the investigation several weeks ago because they needed more manpower to go through their findings. 

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54 minutes ago, Max Power said:

The investigation into how the Russia Collusion probe started is turning into a criminal case based on the evidence uncovered. 

NYT implying its politically motivated while not having any facts. 

 

Low water mark in American governance. This is nothing but an abuse of power. How do I know? It’s perpetrated by serial power abusers. Italian PM disavowed himself of Barr’s efforts to, pun intended, Trump up charges.

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3 minutes ago, Max Power said:

To my knowledge nothing has been released yet. This shift to criminal inquiry is based on Barr and Durham's  findings so far. 

If I'm speculating, they probably found something in Italy. Possibly Misfud gave them some new information. 

I know Durham did ask for some more bodies for the investigation several weeks ago because they needed more manpower to go through their findings. 

You’re embarrassing yourself. Italian PM distanced himself. There is no real predicate here, anymore than there was in the GOP stunt in the SCIF. 

Edited by Mr. Ham
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16 hours ago, Punxsutawney Phil said:

What's going on here?

Just more abuse of power.

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Maria Butina just got released from prison.  Her crime was failing to submit a piece of paper.  Her life was ruined based on a slanderous smear campaign by prosecutors.  She's expected to be deported back to Russia.

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3 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

Maria Butina just got released from prison.  Her crime was failing to submit a piece of paper.  Her life was ruined based on a slanderous smear campaign by prosecutors.  She's expected to be deported back to Russia.

Remind me again - how was her life "ruined"?

 

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4 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

Maria Butina just got released from prison.  Her crime was failing to submit a piece of paper.  Her life was ruined based on a slanderous smear campaign by prosecutors.  She's expected to be deported back to Russia.

Actually, she pleaded guilty to conspiring to act as a clandestine foreign agent. She was sentenced to 18 months in prison.

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1 minute ago, Sinn Fein said:

Remind me again - how was her life "ruined"?

She can't live or work here anymore, falsely tarred as a Kremlin agent that traded sexual favors for influence, imprisoned for 18 months, and had the law selectively applied to her because she's Russian.  This was for the sort of activites that happen all the time in DC (and I believe would have been entirely legal had she properly registered with the DOJ).  

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2 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

Remind me again - how was her life "ruined"?

 

To be fair, she might accidentally fall from an open window after being shot 15 times.
 

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31 minutes ago, ren hoek said:

She can't live or work here anymore, falsely tarred as a Kremlin agent that traded sexual favors for influence, imprisoned for 18 months, and had the law selectively applied to her because she's Russian.  This was for the sort of activites that happen all the time in DC (and I believe would have been entirely legal had she properly registered with the DOJ).  

She pleaded guilty.

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4 minutes ago, Sheriff Bart said:

She pleaded guilty.

Noted again and applies to all.

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16 hours ago, Max Power said:

To my knowledge nothing has been released yet. This shift to criminal inquiry is based on Barr and Durham's  findings so far. 

If I'm speculating, they probably found something in Italy. Possibly Misfud gave them some new information. 

I know Durham did ask for some more bodies for the investigation several weeks ago because they needed more manpower to go through their findings. 

Is there somewhere I can read these things you're saying?  I'd like to see where that's been released.

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