Ilov80s
Footballguy
You don't think immigrants to the United States have assimilated well? You don't think history has proven that immigrants can become assets to the country, love their country of origin and love America?disagree
You don't think immigrants to the United States have assimilated well? You don't think history has proven that immigrants can become assets to the country, love their country of origin and love America?disagree
It's not a wife or child, you aren't supposed to love, cherish or support the United States above all others unless you want to. It's more like a job- an obligation. I am obligated to stay informed, vote, be on a jury, pay taxes, mostly follow the rules, fight if I had been asked to, but I would prefer to never have to give the country a second thought. The country wasn't built to be worshipped or loved, but to allow individuals to live their lives as freely as possible.see, that's love of family - love of family and putting them before everyone else. Same with your country - you're suppose to love it, cherish it, support it above all others. Why? Because its YOUR country, not someone elses but yours and your families.
again - do you sit around and worry about the other 330 million people and the 19,000 cities in the country ? do you donate your money to all Americans in need? do you plan to donate your time and go help them? fight with them for injustices?again - do you sit around and worry about the other 7 billion people on this planet and the other 194 countries on this planet ? do you donate your money to all those in need? do you plan to donate your time and go help them? fight with them for injustices?
I would never expect anyone nit a citizen of the United States to put the United States above their home country. EVER. Would you ?
I'm not sure it drives people to act - but if you think any country helps other countries more than than their own I think you're mistaken.Sinn Fein said:Help me understand the difference? On one hand you cite that activity as love of country, but now its compassion. I happen to agree that its compassion that drives people to act - help me see how its "nationalism" that drives people to act.
I think first generation immigrants still long for home, even though they've pledge US citizenship don't you ? I could move to Belize, I loved it there. I could learn to love the people, the area, even the country. I'd always long for my Ozark mtns though.Ilov80s said:You don't think immigrants to the United States have assimilated well? You don't think history has proven that immigrants can become assets to the country, love their country of origin and love America?
Sure in some ways-most people "long for home" at certain points in life. The Iowa kid that went to Hollywood and made it in the movies still likely has some longing for what life was like in small town Iowa with mom and dad. That doesn't diminish Hollywood or California or mean they don't also love their new life. You've yet to explain why having an Italian immigrant living in America, working in America, raising their kids here, respecting the US but having a deep love and pride for Italy is bad for America.I think first generation immigrants still long for home, even though they've pledge US citizenship don't you ? I could move to Belize, I loved it there. I could learn to love the people, the area, even the country. I'd always long for my Ozark mtns though.
did I ever say it was bad ?You've yet to explain why having an Italian immigrant living in America, working in America, raising their kids here, respecting the US but having a deep love and pride for Italy is bad for America.
Why is that so important?But in the ends, a country has to be proud, strong and dedicated to its self.
I inferred you think it's bad since it's your line of reasoning why you are anti immigration. You just said a country has to be strong, dedicated to itself and have love for itself so I'm assuming you mean immigrants somehow interfere with this.did I ever say it was bad ?
it would be conflicting no doubt, and 100% understandable too. I've done a lot of traveling and moving/living in different states, I kinda get it
I have a strong sense of southern pride, of my State and in the area I grew up. I love the western states, but I feel at home in my Ozarks. When I came back from Venezuela, it was emotional to be home in the States again, i can't imagine how it would be for soldiers etc. THAT is patriotism, nationalism, love of country, that feeling.
if in your example the US went to war with Italy .... where would your immigrant stand? With his born country and countrymen or the country he moved to and swore allegiance? I don't know, it would be a conflict for sure, with many variables etc.
But in the ends, a country has to be proud, strong and dedicated to its self. A country split isn't a country and having a love of country is exceptionally important.
That seems to be a better definition of neighborhoodism. Even the smallest nations are big enough that I don't know everybody. Hell, I work in an office with 250 people and maybe know 1/3 of them.Two kids are starving.....One is yours, the other is some kid you don't know......You have limited food....Who are you going to make sure gets fed first....That's my definition of Nationalism.
One kid is the citizens of The United States ...the other is any other country...The parent is our government.That seems to be a better definition of neighborhoodism. Even the smallest nations are big enough that I don't know everybody. Hell, I work in an office with 250 people and maybe know 1/3 of them.
I am going to give them each a chance at survival - probably at my own expense - depending on their ages.Two kids are starving.....One is yours, the other is some kid you don't know......You have limited food....Who are you going to make sure gets fed first....That's my definition of Nationalism.
Not only am I going to feed the kid, I am going to invite his family over too. And, together, we will figure out how to find/create more food.One kid is the citizens of The United States ...the other is any other country...The parent is our government.
And that my friend is why you are going to go broke and not be able to afford the bigger house you are going to need for the extra people you are caring for.Not only am I going to feed the kid, I am going to invite his family over too. And, together, we will figure out how to find/create more food.
Yes. I understand metaphors.One kid is the citizens of The United States ...the other is any other country...The parent is our government.
His logic fails for the same reason the logic on the other side fails, you can not blame every thing bad which happens on democracy and you can not credit the goodness to nationalism and vice versa. It is silly to point to Hitler and solely blame democracy for electing him while ignoring the racial superiority and nationalism which he used to raise to power. But I also think it is silly to solely blame nationalism when it was a socialistic democracy which gave him power. Just because evil men will use things for evil purposes, does not make what they use evil.
I did not say that he did. But the Nazi party though did win about 43 percent of the vote, making them the largest and most powerful party which eventually garnered enough power and popularity to over take the government. Hitler lost the election, but the Nazi won the most power.When did Hitler get elected?
That's pretty awful but I think it unlikely that Crazy Pat represents the views of more than a handful of Americans. You can't legislate the return of Christian privilege, for example, with barely 15% of Americans even attending church these days.
I think there’s a distinction between those who view themselves as Christian and those who want a sort of theocracy. The former are very much driving things even though the man they are following and the program he offers are not doctrinally Christian. I think it’s the identifiers who get wrapped into nationalism. The Christian doctrine in government can only happen if enough power is gotten, then that substantial minority can do quite a lot in any system. That is actually the history of radical movements.That's pretty awful but I think it unlikely that Crazy Pat represents the views of more than a handful of Americans. You can't legislate the return of Christian privilege, for example, with barely 15% of Americans even attending church these days.
I was with you until your last two sentences. I believe nationalism is evil.His logic fails for the same reason the logic on the other side fails, you can not blame every thing bad which happens on democracy and you can not credit the goodness to nationalism and vice versa. It is silly to point to Hitler and solely blame democracy for electing him while ignoring the racial superiority and nationalism which he used to raise to power. But I also think it is silly to solely blame nationalism when it was a socialistic democracy which gave him power. Just because evil men will use things for evil purposes, does not make what they use evil.
That’s now how I took Jon’s point, ie as defending nationalism. I took it to mean that people drive events, not ideas. But I don’t know, having tried to say that it’s tough to thread that needle.I was with you until your last two sentences. I believe nationalism is evil.
Europe, left to its own devices, has always been nationalist. Especially it’s most central and eastern parts. And they’ve always been ####ed.>>A fortnight ago, Viktor Orban and his Fidesz Party won enough seats in the Hungarian parliament to rewrite his country’s constitution.
To progressives across the West, this was disturbing news.<<
Its not about Hitler. I see Jon’s point and it is *the classic example of how democracies go bad, but right now there are real nationalist movements which have taken power - and radically changed Constitutions - in Turkey and now Hungary.
Poland has fought this off somewhat, but not entirely, and movements have been brewing in Czech Rep. & Austria. This is happening right now. In Hungary the government just closed the last private newspaper.
Yes, and the end of the Cold War has presented challenges because the old East/West rubric kept a lid on all that.Europe, left to its own devices, has always been nationalist. Especially it’s most central and eastern parts. And they’ve always been ####ed.
That’s why the majority of people living in the USA are descended from those who fled Europe. Because we don’t want nationalism. That’s why we’re the “new world”.
I think I understood him. He said ideas aren’t evil. But some ideas certainly are: fascism, communism, nationalism.That’s not how I took Jon’s point, ie as defending nationalism. I took it to mean that people drive events, not ideas. But I don’t know, having tried to say that it’s tough to thread that needle.
To be clear Buchanan says Hitler ‘rose to power through a democratic election’, not that he was elected. It was the Enabling Act that vaulted him into the role of dictator, but the Reichstag did that.When did Hitler get elected?
I personally agree with that. Ideology matters.I think I understood him. He said ideas aren’t evil. But some ideas certainly are: fascism, communism, nationalism.
Right. I think some of our leaders thought that the fall of the Iron Curtain would bring about western style democracies in Eastern Europe, and they certainly tried. But in my estimation, rather than little Swedens (stable democracies), what they ended up with is new versions of the Weimar Republic (unstable democracies with both nationalism and class struggle brewing underneath the surface, ready to erupt at any time.) Which is exactly what they were about BEFORE the Iron Curtain. Why should we have expected any different?Yes, and the end of the Cold War has presented challenges because the old East/West rubric kept a lid on all that.
If this is true, it says more about the person allowing "millions of illegals" to taint their sense of national pride way more than it does about the "millions of illegals".also, nationalism is a sense of national pride as well, citizenship ........ and all the millions of illegals here destroys that.
The presence of institutions - the EU, IMF, NATO, OSCE, etc. - And also the experience of having lived under fascism/communism for decades. The people are not as pliant or naive as they were in pre war Europe. Just as an example look at what’s going on in Budapest.Right. I think some of our leaders thought that the fall of the Iron Curtain would bring about western style democracies in Eastern Europe, and they certainly tried. But in my estimation, rather than little Swedens (stable democracies), what they ended up with is new versions of the Weimar Republic (unstable democracies with both nationalism and class struggle brewing underneath the surface, ready to erupt at any time.) Which is exactly what they were about BEFORE the Iron Curtain. Why should we have expected any different?
Many of the same people argued that gay marriage would destroy straight marriage, remember?If this is true, it says more about the person allowing "millions of illegals" to taint their sense of national pride way more than it does about the "millions of illegals".
I think the phenomenon Ditka Butkus describes makes sense, though I wouldn't call it nationalism. There are practical reasons why we should spend more per person on domestic poverty-relief programs than on foreign aid. I don't want to spend any time arguing for that point; I just want to acknowledge that I agree with it.That seems to be a better definition of neighborhoodism. Even the smallest nations are big enough that I don't know everybody. Hell, I work in an office with 250 people and maybe know 1/3 of them.Two kids are starving.....One is yours, the other is some kid you don't know......You have limited food....Who are you going to make sure gets fed first....That's my definition of Nationalism.
Patriotism is acting out American ideals. A recent example of American patriotism was Colin Kaepernick kneeling during the anthem. By doing so he not only invoked the 1st Amendment, he expressed his public dissent against the policies of our government, specifically their failure to do anything about the systemic mistreatment of minorities by law enfocrement. This is the sort of peaceful, public protest that our founding fathers envisioned, and Kaepernick behaved in the most patriotic way imaginable, IMO. Dead serious about this.We should include 3 subjects atriotism, Nationalism,and Trumpism. It is hard to separate our current form of Nationalism from Trumpism where it plagued with accepting an inept President who thinks he can control all aspects of governing with little insight and guidance from Cabinet Secretaries and simple aggressive plans and tactics. This Trumpism demands loyalty and constant praise willingness to destroy institutions such as the DOJ and FBI with fake conspiracy theories.
Out of those, only fascism is pure evil. Communism in theory could work, except it goes against human nature and inevitably turns into a failing tyrannical state. Nationalism while demonized heavily by the left gets way too much blame for causing WWII and not enough credit for ending it. Nationalism like religion can be used for good or evil depending on the cause (and what the values of the country or religion stands for). I would argue that America rising up and helping defeat the Nazis was as much driven by nationalism as anything. Was nationalism evil in that case?I think I understood him. He said ideas aren’t evil. But some ideas certainly are: fascism, communism, nationalism.
Sorry how is this not evil? In theory it takes all private property, establishes a dictatorship and eliminates all individual rights.Communism in theory could work, except it goes against human nature and inevitably turns into a failing tyrannical state.
By that same logic, a traitor would be a Patriot for involking his fifth amendment rights.Patriotism is acting out American ideals. A recent example of American patriotism was Colin Kaepernick kneeling during the anthem. By doing so he not only invoked the 1st Amendment, he expressed his public dissent against the policies of our government, specifically their failure to do anything about the systemic mistreatment of minorities by law enfocrement. This is the sort of peaceful, public protest that our founding fathers envisioned, and Kaepernick behaved in the most patriotic way imaginable, IMO. Dead serious about this.
I think you’re confusing nationalism and patriotism here. They’re not the same thing, though nationalism does lean on patriotism obviously. This is maybe an interesting claim if applied to WW1.Nationalism while demonized heavily by the left gets way too much blame for causing WWII and not enough credit for ending it. Nationalism like religion can be used for good or evil depending on the cause (and what the values of the country or religion stands for). I would argue that America rising up and helping defeat the Nazis was as much driven by nationalism as anything. Was nationalism evil in that case?
It works for bees. People on the other hand are more selfish and are driven by self interest more than community. So the rights you mention are valued more. I would not classify bees setup as evil.Sorry how is this not evil? In theory it takes all private property, establishes a dictatorship and eliminates all individual rights.
No, but we’re talking politics here, not botany.It works for bees. People on the other hand are more selfish and are driven by self interest more than community. So the rights you mention are valued more. I would not classify bees setup as evil.
I suppose you could argue that nationalism helped us defeat the Nazis. Of course you would be wrong, not a little wrong but 100% wrong. But you could argue it.Out of those, only fascism is pure evil. Communism in theory could work, except it goes against human nature and inevitably turns into a failing tyrannical state. Nationalism while demonized heavily by the left gets way too much blame for causing WWII and not enough credit for ending it. Nationalism like religion can be used for good or evil depending on the cause (and what the values of the country or religion stands for). I would argue that America rising up and helping defeat the Nazis was as much driven by nationalism as anything. Was nationalism evil in that case?
And doing otherwise would mean defining and treating humans as mere insects. I would call that evil, yeah, if applied.No, but we’re talking politics here, not botany.
Not for the act of treachery itself. But the invocation of the Fifth can absolutely be an act of patriotism, under certain circumstances. It was for Dalton Trumbo and the Hollywood Ten.jon_mx said:By that same logic, a traitor would be a Patriot for involking his fifth amendment rights.
Jon seems to be invoking his inner BF Skinner in this thread.SaintsInDome2006 said:And doing otherwise would mean defining and treating humans as mere insects. I would call that evil, yeah, if applied.
But you have to concede the point about the importance of patriotism existentially to a country. A tincture of nationalism is necessary for any country to survive, replete with flag waving & all that.Not for the act of treachery itself. But the invocation of the Fifth can absolutely be an act of patriotism, under certain circumstances. It was for Dalton Trumbo and the Hollywood Ten.
Again I separate that from nationalism. No doubt it’s a subtle difference, and both have many of the same features (such as flag waving in certain instances) yet the differences are still there. I offered Kaepernick and Dalton Trumbo as examples of patriotism, but they could never be offered as examples of nationalism- that is the difference.But you have to concede the point about the importance of patriotism existentially to a country. A tincture of nationalism is necessary for any country to survive, replete with flag waving & all that.