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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Thread

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11 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I'm just asking you what you meant. Do you mind responding? It's just a polite request for you to unpack it. You obviously don't have to.

- eta - To be clear I mean the earlier statement, "She is very reluctant to ever imply anything bad about people of color or POC as she likes to say.   But she has no issue with saying the most condemning things about white nationals and painting with a broad brush." - Not the other stuff with the Trump comp.

- eta2 - What did you mean by "white nationals" especially? Thanks.

It was just a typo...nationalists. 

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14 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I must be missing something. This sounds like local politics here. I hate it personally as a rule but this is the way it works. And really usually HOR district races are  just local pols getting promoted up. That wasn't Cortez but someone like her winning a city or state race district wide would not be unheard of. It's funny what conservatives focus on these days. I don't understand why the focus isn't on the demographics in the district changing. As good as her ads were and as charismatic as she was I think that was the biggest factor in her running, getting support and winning.

I have never seen a candidate who was as spoon feed as AOC.  I have a hard time believing that is typical .

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7 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

It was just a typo...nationalists. 

Actually nm, I think I read your post wrong. I thought you were saying Cortez is somehow unfair to white nationalists or was painting people as white nationalists unfairly. I guess your point is she is willing to talk about white nationalism but not extremist islamism.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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3 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Thanks, do you mind just unpacking some more? Do you think she has been unfair towards white nationalists, or do you think she is calling people white nationalists who aren't?

She grossly exaggerates the threat posed by nationalists and emphizes the white part, while she completely ignores the dangers posed by radical islamics and I doubt she would never even utter the phrase.  

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55 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

She grossly exaggerates the threat posed by nationalists 

Does she? 

Gotta tell you this morning I find them particularly threatening.

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1 hour ago, jon_mx said:

I have never seen a candidate who was as spoon feed as AOC.  I have a hard time believing that is typical .

I don’t think political groups supporting a candidate D/R is unusual. If you want a comp for someone so lacking in prior experience I’d think the tea party candidates from 2010 & 2012 would have examples. I don’t feel like exploring that because of the work involved but I remember some really raw candidates jumping in (and Dems roundly used that against the GOP).

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I’m not entirely sure why someone of Cortez’s skills and education was working as a bartender. I’ve got a friend with a Masters and he bartends but he’s also a professor at a local community college, and that’s more a statement on our educational system in LA.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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1 minute ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I don’t think political groups supporting a candidate D/R is unusual. If you want a comp for someone so lacking in prior experience I’d think the tea party candidates from 2010 & 2012 would have examples. I don’t feel like exploring that because of the work involved but I remember some really raw candidates jumping in (and Dems roundly used that against the GOP).

The house has always been raucous, unruly, and exceedingly partisan, as it was designed to be.

 

Where it not for the house I do not believe we would have seen the various movements towards term limitations.  None of us want to limit the terms of our own folks, but the raucous, partisan nature of Electeds from other Districts, well they are tough to stomach, so we seek to limit them.  The house is suppose to present a wide variety of views, and it does that well, often to my consternation, but my consternation is a feature, not a bug.

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In my opinion she is eating her critics for breakfast...she is going to gain a ton of followers

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3 hours ago, killface said:

In my opinion she is eating her critics for breakfast...she is going to gain a ton of followers

I have no doubt that is how you see it.   The reality is the Justice Democrat movement is elevating the in-fighting on the left with the all or nothing mentality and is making the entire Democrat party look like loons to the moderate voters.   She may get lots of followers but the Justice Democrats are a big loser in setting  back their agenda.   

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4 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I’m not entirely sure why someone of Cortez’s skills and education was working as a bartender. I’ve got a friend with a Masters and he bartends but he’s also a professor at a local community college, and that’s more a statement on our educational system in LA.

 

Eventually I realized, this is my life.

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4 hours ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

The house has always been raucous, unruly, and exceedingly partisan, as it was designed to be.

 

Where it not for the house I do not believe we would have seen the various movements towards term limitations.  None of us want to limit the terms of our own folks, but the raucous, partisan nature of Electeds from other Districts, well they are tough to stomach, so we seek to limit them.  The house is suppose to present a wide variety of views, and it does that well, often to my consternation, but my consternation is a feature, not a bug.

 

I would gladly term limit out Ted Cruz, John Cornyn, and Chip Roy.

I mean, really, its kind of a miracle any of them were elected in the first place.

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4 hours ago, jon_mx said:

I have no doubt that is how you see it.   The reality is the Justice Democrat movement is elevating the in-fighting on the left with the all or nothing mentality and is making the entire Democrat party look like loons to the moderate voters.   She may get lots of followers but the Justice Democrats are a big loser in setting  back their agenda.   

What do you mean by ”justice democrats”? Did you come up with this on your own?

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31 minutes ago, Glass Joe said:

What do you mean by ”justice democrats”? Did you come up with this on your own?

Its the name of a liberal PAC i believe. 

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12 hours ago, jon_mx said:

She grossly exaggerates the threat posed by nationalists and emphizes the white part, while she completely ignores the dangers posed by radical islamics and I doubt she would never even utter the phrase.  

Looking at this again, this is a weird way to put things. White nationalists are not nationalists who happen to be white.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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3 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Looking at this again, this is a weird way to put things. White nationalists are not nationalists who happen to be white.

It is to point out the lack of mentioning race or ethnicity by left-leaning politicians or media when the attacker is Muslim or black or when the victim is Christian or white.  

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14 hours ago, timschochet said:

Does she? 

Gotta tell you this morning I find them particularly threatening.

Your viewpoint is crafted by what you see reported by the media.  There are over 15,000 homocides in the US, over 2,000 are gang related violence.  It is very rare you hear about those.     What you do hear about in lots if details of the 20-50 murders committed by anyone with any relationshipto a white nationalist group.   They are tragic and in cases where there are multiple victims they should be newsworthy.  But these are still lottery-winning type odds we are talking about and you face dozens of things on a daily basis which are far more threatening than any danger posed from white nationalists.  We are talking about small fractions of a percent of all homicide and even those numbers are kind of dubious as they skewed by several attacks which had little or maybe even nothing to do with it.  

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6 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Looking at this again, this is a weird way to put things. White nationalists are not nationalists who happen to be white.

Also, I think nationalists is a bit of a misnomer.  The real issue is white supremacy.  Their are lots of people of all races who are nationalists who believe in things like patriotism, protecting the borders, and just the things which makes America great.   That is not the problem here.  The issue here is hatred of minorities from the white supremacists. There is overlap, but they are not the same. 

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5 hours ago, jon_mx said:

Your viewpoint is crafted by what you see reported by the media.  There are over 15,000 homocides in the US, over 2,000 are gang related violence.  It is very rare you hear about those.     What you do hear about in lots if details of the 20-50 murders committed by anyone with any relationshipto a white nationalist group.   They are tragic and in cases where there are multiple victims they should be newsworthy.  But these are still lottery-winning type odds we are talking about and you face dozens of things on a daily basis which are far more threatening than any danger posed from white nationalists.  We are talking about small fractions of a percent of all homicide and even those numbers are kind of dubious as they skewed by several attacks which had little or maybe even nothing to do with it.  

While this is all true, it’s also true of radical Islamic terrorism. Yet that worries me too. I don’t feel like I am in personal danger from either one, but I find both to be threatening to our society - with good reason. 

I find it interesting to read this sort of approach from you, given some of your paranoid reactions  in the past- Ebola (“it’s in the rivers!”) comes immediately to mind. 

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1 hour ago, bananafish said:

If we can indulge in a tangent for a moment, I'm curious as to what you think "the things which makes America great" are. I'm not trying to catch you in some gotcha moment or anything, but I think an elucidation of these attributes might tease out some differences and perhaps shine a light on where reconciliation might be possible. Or, conversely, we might find agreement where conflict was presupposed. 

If we are truly striving to "make America great again", I think it would be helpful to spell out exactly what the goals are. I take you at your word that you are not a Trump fan and assume you probably disagree with what his conception is, but what would a Great America of the 21st century look like to you?

What makes America great?   We paved the way for and created the model for democracy and individual freedoms.  We fought for their freedom.  We provided the major advances in science and medicine. We provide opportunity for everyone to succeed.   We are great now.  

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1 hour ago, jon_mx said:

What makes America great?   We paved the way for and created the model for democracy and individual freedoms.  We fought for their freedom.  We provided the major advances in science and medicine. We provide opportunity for everyone to succeed.   We are great now.  

We did not create the model for democracy.  We provided some of the advances in medicine though Pasteur, Carrie and Christian Bernard would dispute that we were the most impactful.  We provided opportunity for many, but not everyone though I think we do better on this now. We are not great now, not in my mind.  We are lost and squabbling, in my mind, destructively so.  Still, it is nice that you have a positive outlook.   

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders

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2 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

 WE are not great now, not in my mind.  We are lost and squabbling, in my mind, destructively so.  

I blame this on Tom Brady and the New England Patriots. Most mediocre dynasty in the history of sports.

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2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I blame this on Tom Brady and the New England Patriots. Most mediocre dynasty in the history of sports.

I agree.  I know some rank Tom Brady only behind Jesus Christ in their list of world's greatest Americans, but not me.  I see the truth.  I know pure evil when I see it.

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders

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4 hours ago, jon_mx said:

Also, I think nationalists is a bit of a misnomer.  The real issue is white supremacy.  Their are lots of people of all races who are nationalists who believe in things like patriotism, protecting the borders, and just the things which makes America great.   That is not the problem here.  The issue here is hatred of minorities from the white supremacists. There is overlap, but they are not the same. 

White nationalism adds the axiom that to be American or patriotic means being of a certain ethnicity or religion, or that to be great America must adhere to a certain religion or conform to a certain ethnic culture. White supremacy is about racial superiority, calling for racial or religious separation, and legal definitions recognizing that.

I say this again agreeing with your prior point about Cortez possibly ignoring islamic terrorism as a national security issue, perhaps out of PC concerns, I don't know.  But as applied there is such a thing as white nationalism, there is a difference between nationalism and white nationalism and white supremacy, and no one who considers themselves a nationalist should be offended by attacks on white nationalism. I can tell you though that it is a short leap from nationalism to white nationalism and some groups and proselytizers work on that. I haven't followed Cortez but if she has said critical things about white nationalism it's not anything that mainstream Americans should have a problem with, it's something they should find common cause with. 

 

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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42 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

White nationalism adds the axiom that to be American or patriotic means being of a certain ethnicity or religion, or that to be great America must adhere to a certain religion or conform to a certain ethnic culture. White supremacy is about racial superiority, calling for racial or religious separation, and legal definitions recognizing that.

I say this again agreeing with your prior point about Cortez possibly ignoring islamic terrorism as a national security issue, perhaps out of PC concerns, I don't know.  But as applied there is such a thing as white nationalism, there is a difference between nationalism and white nationalism and white supremacy, and no one who considers themselves a nationalist should be offended by attacks on white nationalism. I can tell you though that it is a short leap from nationalism to white nationalism and some groups and proselytizers work on that. I haven't followed Cortez but if she has said critical things about white nationalism it's not anything that mainstream Americans should have a problem with, it's something they should find common cause with. 

 

In my whole life, in every area work, play, friends, family, acquaintances, I have never heard anyone use the term "white nationalism" in any conversation. Never heard white supremacy either.  Even when I am in large groups of all white people. never.. Only time I have every heard it is on the news or here.

Serious, has anyone heard it used other than in the news or here?

Edited by Da Guru

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9 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

In my whole life, in every area work, play, friends, family, acquaintances, I have never heard anyone use the term "white nationalism" in any conversation. Never heard white supremacy either.  Even when I am in large groups of all white people. never.. Only time I have every heard it is on the news or here.

Serious, has anyone heard it used other than in the news or here?

No.   :lol:

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12 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

In my whole life, in every area work, play, friends, family, acquaintances, I have never heard anyone use the term "white nationalism" in any conversation. Never heard white supremacy either.  Even when I am in large groups of all white people. never.. Only time I have every heard it is on the news or here.

Serious, has anyone heard it used other than in the news or here?

Of course. 

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12 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

In my whole life, in every area work, play, friends, family, acquaintances, I have never heard anyone use the term "white nationalism" in any conversation. Never heard white supremacy either.  Even when I am in large groups of all white people. never.. Only time I have every heard it is on the news or here.

Serious, has anyone heard it used other than in the news or here?

Consider yourself lucky.  They are frequently discussed topics here in the south :shrug: 

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51 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

In my whole life, in every area work, play, friends, family, acquaintances, I have never heard anyone use the term "white nationalism" in any conversation. Never heard white supremacy either.  Even when I am in large groups of all white people. never.. Only time I have every heard it is on the news or here.

Serious, has anyone heard it used other than in the news or here?

My first wife was a woman of color as the euphemism now goes.  It was not a rare event back in those days for us to be out together and to have persons comment in negative fashions and to use inflammatory words.    I heard race "traitor", "white power", "mud people",  "****** lover" and others, but never white nationalism or white supremacy.

 

Quick story.  Colorado Springs, 30 years ago.  At a mall right around closing time.  My wife and I walked down a spur hallway of closed stores to hit up an ATM.  We needed money to buy some movie tickets, the theater then being about the only thing still open.  Mixed race couples were not unknown in those parts, thanks in large part to the large military contingent, soldiers and airmen taking wives all over the world and then coming back with them.  Still, it was not super common.  Anyhow, three meatheads followed us down the hallway.  One of them had on a white power hat.  They reviled us for a bit and then one spit on my wife.  That individual set off an audible alarm when he went through the plate glass window of the store we were in front of.  This brought mall security, off duty C.S.P.D.  I thought I was going to lose my job as a Prosecutor.  In the end I did not.  

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders
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4 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

My first wife was a woman of color as the euphemism now goes.  It was not a rare event back in those days for us to be out together and to have persons comment in negative fashions and to use inflammatory words.    I heard race "traitor", "white power", "mud people",  "****** lover" and others, but never white nationalism or white supremacy.

 

Quick story.  Colorado springs, 30 years a go.  At a mall right around closing time.  My wife and I walked down a spur hallway of closed stores to hit up an ATM.  We needed money to buy some movie tickets, the theater then being about the only thing still open.  Mixed race couples were not unknown in those parts, thanks in large part to the large military contingent, soldiers and airmen taking wives all over the world and then coming back with them.  Still, it was not super common.  Anyhow, three meatheads followed us down the hallway.  One of them had on a white power hat.  The reviled us for a bit and then one spit on my wife.  That individual set off an audible alarm when he went through the plate glass window of the store we were in front of.  This brought mall security, off duty C.S.P.D.  I thought I was going to lose my job as a Prosecutor.  In the end I did not.  

I dated a black girl in college on and off for a year.  We went our many time to the bar, restaurant, wherever.  Never had anyone say a word. In fact I just saw her at a Michigan football game last year and it brought back good memories. Funny thing was she was from Detroit but only dated white guys..ended up marrying a white guy who I met and drank with last fall.  I said to her did you tell him we went out?  She said "No, Lets leave that part out" :)

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4 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

I dated a black girl in college on and off for a year.  We went our many time to the bar, restaurant, wherever.  Never had anyone say a word. In fact I just saw her at a Michigan football game last year and it brought back good memories. Funny thing was she was from Detroit but only dated white guys..ended up marrying a white guy who I met and drank with last fall.  I said to her did you tell him we went out?  She said "No, Lets leave that part out" :)

Its your little secret.  You two have that.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

In my whole life, in every area work, play, friends, family, acquaintances, I have never heard anyone use the term "white nationalism" in any conversation. Never heard white supremacy either.  Even when I am in large groups of all white people. never.. Only time I have every heard it is on the news or here.

Serious, has anyone heard it used other than in the news or here?

I’m from Louisiana and David Duke made it a thing here. So yeah I’ve been hearing it a long long time.

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3 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

I’m from Louisiana and David Duke made it a thing here. So yeah I’ve been hearing it a long long time.

"The South will rise again!"

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7 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

"The South will rise again!"

More like, "New Orleans is a jungle" or "welfare queens are taking over" or "aren't you proud of your heritage?" Until the statues thing it was rarely wrapped in Confederacy talk, really never. Reminder: we surrendered quick and good.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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3 hours ago, timschochet said:

While this is all true, it’s also true of radical Islamic terrorism. Yet that worries me too. I don’t feel like I am in personal danger from either one, but I find both to be threatening to our society - with good reason. 

It is true and we have done a great job in reducing the threat and even stopping several attacks before they were pulled off.  The difference between the two is the threat from white nationalists are almost always lone-wolf nut jobs.   The threat from radical islam comes from more coordinated attacks often times with multiple perpetrators.  They also don't have large organizations such as ISLS which can finance and plan attacks which could result in massive causualties. 

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58 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

Among friends or family?

I had a friend of a friend who was a white nationalist. He disturbed me because he was a nice smart guy. That was 20 years ago, no idea what became of him. 

There is a guy in my Continuing Care (alcoholics anonymous) Thursday night meeting whom I’m pretty sure is one, based on some offhand comments- but politics aren’t discussed in there, and I haven’t asked him. 

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Maybe the reason you all never heard much talk about white nationalism until recently is that white nationalism was considered a disgusting and horrifying ideology and any mention of it that wasn't negative would immediately and rightly disqualify the speaker from being taken seriously by virtually everyone until recently?

 

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Unfortunately a lot of Americans aren’t sophisticated in this. And I thought we had done the country a solid here in Louisiana some time ago. I would have never thought this would be a national conversation in 2019. It would have been shocking and disgusting to Young Me.

And this whole notion above about blending nationalism and white nationalism or pretending the latter doesn’t exist is part of the patter. The people who push this stuff love hearing just that.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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1 hour ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Unfortunately a lot of Americans aren’t sophisticated in this. And I thought we had done the country a solid here in Louisiana some time ago. I would have never thought this would be a national conversation in 2019. It would have been shocking and disgusting to Young Me.

And this whole notion above about blending nationalism and white nationalism or pretending the latter doesn’t exist is part of the patter. The people who push this stuff love hearing just that.

White nationalism obviously exists, but the blending occurs both ways.  White nationalist groups playing as patriotic nationalists and nationalists getting painted as white nationalists.

It’s not hard to see why people get confused, especially where immigration is concerned.

Edited by jonessed
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1 hour ago, TobiasFunke said:

Maybe the reason you all never heard much talk about white nationalism until recently is that white nationalism was considered a disgusting and horrifying ideology and any mention of it that wasn't negative would immediately and rightly disqualify the speaker from being taken seriously by virtually everyone until recently?

 

I continue to believe that the quantity of racism hasn't changed all that much in recent years. Rather people are much more comfortable spouting their nonsense as their political idols provide them the cover to do so

It has never been enough to simply shoot them down and sweep them under the rug. Hopefully we've learned that lesson. 

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3 hours ago, The Commish said:

I continue to believe that the quantity of racism hasn't changed all that much in recent years. Rather people are much more comfortable spouting their nonsense as their political idols provide them the cover to do so

It has never been enough to simply shoot them down and sweep them under the rug. Hopefully we've learned that lesson. 

The Internet has provided an easy platform for scumbags of all stripes to find others like them.

Edited by Sheriff Bart

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4 hours ago, jonessed said:

nationalists getting painted as white nationalists.

 

I don’t understand- what is the difference please? 

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This has nothing to do with AOC, but given the focus on white nationalism and white supremacy the last page or so, I thought it might be worth linking this excellent article from The Atlantic on the long and dark history of white nationalism in America:

Quote

White Nationalism’s Deep American Roots - A long-overdue excavation of the book that Hitler called his “bible,” and the man who wrote it
...
"America has always grappled with, in the words of the immigration historian John Higham, two “rival principles of national unity.” According to one, the U.S. is the champion of the poor and the dispossessed, a nation that draws its strength from its pluralism. According to the other, America’s greatness is the result of its white and Christian origins, the erosion of which spells doom for the national experiment."

Side note, the article above contains a reference and link to an article supporting racist policy in America, but what caused me to pause for a second was that the reason they were able to do so, was that the article was also posted in The Atlantic -- in 1896. I don't think I realized The Atlantic was that old.

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Ocasio-Cortez on discovering garbage disposals: ‘It is terrifying’

Published: May 7, 2019 11:16 a.m. ET

‘I am told this is a garbage disposal. I’ve never seen a garbage disposal. I never had one in any place I’ve ever lived. It is terrifying. I don’t know what it’s for, or what its purpose is. Like, food scraps? Like, is this environmentally sound?’

Hard to figure out if this is simply schtick or is it really possible to be this dumb?

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3 minutes ago, lod001 said:

Ocasio-Cortez on discovering garbage disposals: ‘It is terrifying’

Published: May 7, 2019 11:16 a.m. ET

‘I am told this is a garbage disposal. I’ve never seen a garbage disposal. I never had one in any place I’ve ever lived. It is terrifying. I don’t know what it’s for, or what its purpose is. Like, food scraps? Like, is this environmentally sound?’

Hard to figure out if this is simply schtick or is it really possible to be this dumb?

Did she really say that? She is not a bright one at all.

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