SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Except for the fact the names were on the calendar, written in by BK himself, years before the controversy started.
Agree.
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Brett Kavanaugh (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Captain Cranks
- Start date
Agree.
Kavanaugh claimed he did not know Ford, he did not or could not make a claim on what she knows. But if you have no date, no location, and can't even recall obvious details about the location, what kind of accusation is that? How can anyone even defend against such a claim?
The Commish
Footballguy
shtick...
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Which is by no means enough for a conviction. It is enough to put someone else on the Supreme Court.
Ford was a partisan hack. Her lawyer constantly trashed what the Republicans did, but she never once complained about Democrats leaking her identification. She made up several stories to try to delay testifying. Oh I can't fly. Oh I will only testify after a full investigation. blah, blah, blah. All she wanted to do was delay, delay, delay until after the election and hope that Democrats took control of the Senate.
jonessed
Footballguy
No. They would just have the facts and the facts would lead them to a conclusion. The odds of that coming out 50/50 are pretty slim. This isn’t like flipping a coin.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
You're right on most of the above, I think (I think the calendar gives a date and a location, which is my point). You can't. But I do think he could have been honest and said that yes she knew one of his friends, yes she could have been at the party on his calendar, yes they engaged in that kind of behavior - but make clear he didn't do the thing she accused him of. It's just my perception that he personally participated in the media campaign against her, and I just don't think that's right for a USSC judge, or really any judge.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
The only people she named were BK, Judge, PJ, and her friend. She couldn't remember the other boy she said. She described the inside of the home with some detail and I believe she said it was near the pool.
She was dating Garrett aka Squi during that summer at least according to Tom.
Kavanaugh didn't say she didn't know him. He said he didn't know her, but may have met her. Keyser released this statement. Which obviously makes BK's statement incredibly reasonable.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
We have first person testimony about Kavanaugh that you have completely discarded. We have no such testimony about Democrats leaking her identification. Why do you believe that to have been the case to the point that it 100% must be true? Which Democrat do you think leaked it?
jonessed
Footballguy
The calendar? She didn’t even know the year it happened. Of course he had friends names on his summer calendar.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Sorry, I thought we were discussing how things should be. I still am. I wish you well in your conversation, and will take mine to other discussion partners.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I resolved to my own satisfaction who I believed and who I did not when the matter first arose. I find his appointment a stain upon the bench.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I could see liberals naturally believing the woman - but not all of them. And I could see conservatives expressing skepticism about the process whereby the man was accused - but not all of them.
I agree on the credibility issue, it's not flipping a coin, but that's my point. People wouldn't ordinarily fall one way or the other with this set of facts just based on political leanings.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
This is the other guy at the party and Iirc this came out at hearing. Ford withheld his name originally supposedly to keep him out of the controversy. Iirc also at the hearing she said Ski may have been the one who took her home.
There was a date on Kavanagh's calander which could have been this mysterious date, but it was not one which Ford pointed out. Ford did not know a specific date or location, and Kavanaugh was forced to defend against the whole year. It is absurd.
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
People should utilize a fact-based approach, but few do. Even if partisan politics were removed from the Kavanaugh equation, many people would still be willing to, in essence, find Kavanaugh guilty based on sheer emotion, “Believe all women!”, or some other non-fact-based factor.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Ok right, and when that point - that the calendar did show such a party that could have been the party that Ford described - was elucidated, what happened?
They suspended the hearing, pulled the interviewer, and Graham blew it up on the spot.
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
And then after Ford’s supposed primary witness, Leland Keyser, gave her statement that she could not corroborate Ford’s statement, Keyser then told the FBI that Ford’s camp or allies were pressuring her to change that statement.
”A friend of Christine Blasey Ford told FBI investigators that she felt pressured by Dr. Ford’s allies to revisit her initial statement that she knew nothing about an alleged sexual assault by a teenage Brett Kavanaugh, which she later updated to say that she believed but couldn’t corroborate Dr. Ford’s account, according to people familiar with the matter.”
https://www.wsj.com/articles/friend-of-dr-ford-felt-pressure-to-revisit-statement-1538715152
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I would disagree based upon personal experience. I would generally agree with the proposition that time is often the enemy of accurate recall. I believe there are events that transcend the general rule. I also happen to believe that discussing recall can alter it as we may incorporate additional information gained from the discussion along with the recall combining them during later recall..
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I dont remember her admitting he was the other guy there. I thought somebody else floated floated that. I definitely remember her admitting to dating him for a couple months but not admitting he was there, but I am too lazy to go back and look. If I am wrong I apologize.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I did google a picture of the calendar since I find the concept of saving it so damn funny.
Beach week!!!!
Also who is this suzanne character?
the moops
Footballguy
jonessed
Footballguy
I disagree based on personal experience and reading. I find the topic extremely interesting.
Traumatic events do not transcend this rule. Recollection of eye witnesses to traumatic events are all over the place. Some pieces can be extremely accurate due to heightened senses and some can be completely inaccurate due to sensory overload. It’s impossible for the individual to know which is which because the mind fills gaps and manipulates sensory input instantly, while the memory is being created. Something you recall in complete vividness will generally have a fair amount of inaccuracy built in from the start.
That’s meant as an aside to this particular topic. I don’t see much merit in discussing the Kavanaugh hearings further. The human mind is an amazing thing.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I suspect we have seen many of the same demonstrations and read many of the same articles on this subject matter. I suspect we are closer to agreement than you perceive, but perhaps not. Regardless, I offer the following, I think eye witnesses, who are notoriously unreliable are different from victims in their recollection. I do appreciate that their are challenges with the recollections of both.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Usually depends a lot on the person accused. I think kavanaugh was mostly unknown so political leanings were the primary force here.
I would say well liked athletes and actors often have far more support actually.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Saving it was less bizarre than filling it out. And crying about the calendar while testifying.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
That's my point actually. Yes, because he was a political fulcrum that was the prism many maybe nearly all approached it. However I think conservatives reading or hearing about some random woman who had accused say some other man from a normal everyday walk of life, with similar details, might believe her, and some liberals might disbelieve her. It's just such a tell that everyone is falling on one side or the other here based on their political leanings (and most of us post here enough to know what they are...).
And on your second point just to use an extreme example - RKelly. That was a guy who obviously did what he did and yet there were people slavishly supportive of him among his fan base. That goes on, those people exist even though rationally they should not. That's not a comp, that's an extreme that demonstrates what I'm talking about.
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Dickies
Footballguy
whoknew
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I really didn't want to get into the substance of this again, but this standard is absolutely bananas. It shows zero understanding of how the human mind works. It is not only normal to think that someone can't recall the exact date and location of an important event in their past (traumatic or otherwise), it's expected.
Thinking back on stuff that happened during my teen years- I don't remember exactly where I was when I first found out a close relative or friend had died, or when I first found out I'd gotten into the college of my choice, or when I lost my virginity, or when I got dumped for the first time (of many). And I certainly don't remember the dates of any of these things. Nobody remembers dates of things that happened 30 year ago. I bet most of us wouldn't remember our own anniversaries if we didn't burn them into our brains by acknowledging them every year. I remember the people involved, and the emotions I felt, and perhaps some extraneous details that struck me for some reason. That's how memories work. Brains are not journals or log books or video recorders.
Imposing this expectation on women who allege they were victims of sexual assault is not only silly, it's incredibly dangerous. It discourages women from coming forward about past sexual assaults, which in turn leads men to feel that can get away with it more easily, which in turn leads to more assaults. I don't think your intent here is shameful- it's likely just an outgrowth of your politics. But the inevitable result of the preposterous nonsensical standard you want to set is definitely shameful.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Well this is where you and Brett Kavanaugh are very different. Brett Kavanaugh was a virgin in high school and "many years after."
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The only significant point you made in this rant is the human mind is not a video recorder. In fact it is terrible in that it has the ability to insert things which are not true. That is why it was essential to have something to collaborate details of her story. As is, there is not any reason to put any weight in such a sketchy story no matter how much she may believe it. She could have heard Kavanaugh's name in the news trigger some vague event she now recalls and falsely inserted him into the story.
And is it even possible to discuss something without personalizing it?
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Of course it's possible that she remembered things incorrectly. And I really don't want to get into the particulars of the Kavanaugh accusation here. I have my reasons for believing Ford's account, and I assume you would reject those reasons no matter how convincing I find them, and it doesn't matter at this point anyway.
My actual point- which you ignored- is that expecting an accuser to remember dates and specific locations many years later is absurd. It's completely unreasonable and would have the affect of stifling accusations and enabling abusers. That's it. That's all I was saying. I used examples of major events from my teenage years because I assumed other people would reflect back on when they experienced those or similar things decades ago and realize they too could not remember the exact date, nor the location unless maybe it happened in their home or another place central to their lives.
I did not expect her to remember anything. What I called absurd is Kavanaugh having to defend such a flakey accusation which lacks essential details and has Zero collaboration. You may wish it to be true, but the logic to doubt it far outweight the reasons to believe it as accurate. And I would say that no matter what the politics are.
The Commish
Footballguy
This is still going on? Really? Forget Ford. The second he opened his mouth and went on his political tirade, displayed the temperment of a child and was rude to a sitting Senator he was done in my view. While I believed Ford, I also knew her comments alone weren't going to be enough. NOTHING was going to be enough for McConnell and the GOP on this. It's become quite clear that "by any means necessary to get our guy" is their standard.
Zow
Footballguy
For what it’s worth, I’ve personally, um, observed Rachel Mitchell call an expert who would testify to these exact same notions.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
As I said before, I'm not going to debate the substance again. The reasons that many people, myself included, thought Kavanaugh was lying have been well documented. If you refuse to acknowledge and address them (as you did when you called his lies under oath about his lifestyle and activities at the time of the alleged incident "smoothing over"), so be it.
My only concern is that we not raise the bar for believing victims to the impossible level you seemed to be suggesting- where they should be dismissed as fraud if they cannot remember exact dates and locations- because that would do massive damage.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Oh, who among us hasn’t occasionally gone a couple hundred thousand in debt for baseball tickets and then been paid back right when we’re getting a job requiring us to be impartial?
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I agree 100% with this. I am not sure who to believe in regards to the Ford testimony, something traumatic happened to that woman but I do not think there was enough to definitely say exactly what, if anything, Kavanaugh had to do with it. That said his demeanor during the proceedings was enough to convince me that he did not belong on the SCOTUS.
The Commish
Footballguy
Few will talk about this in any meaningful way though...they didn't while the events were unfolding either.
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Stealthycat
Footballguy
which still astonishes me ... believing someone's high accusation with zero evidence is remarkable to me
The Commish
Footballguy
The remarkable thing here is the continued assertion that there was "zero evidence". Creating a false premise for whatever reason you are is pretty lazy and unhelpful IMO.
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zoonation
Footballguy
She discussed the assault with her therapist before Kavanaugh was a nominee.
Brett Kavanaugh is a liar. He told ridiculous lies about his yearbook. Devil's Triangle. Yeah, sure thing Brett.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
She definitely discussed an assault with her therapist in 2012 and 2013 "by students from an elite boy’s school" who are now “highly respected and high-ranking members of society in Washington." She also took a polygraph that indicated she was being truthful. Her husband confirmed that he recalled the discussion with the therapist and says Kavanaugh was mentioned by last name.
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