Brett Kavanaugh (4 Viewers)

timschochet said:

How has Kavanaugh done so far? I admit I haven’t really kept up with it. Is he making those who supported him happy? Has he shown any kind of independence yet? Written any decisions? 

Click to expand...

Henry Ford said:

And yet still, even then, I would not go the father of the person she’s claiming raped her how much I support his son, in case of the whole “boy who cried wolf” scenario.  And because, you know, my daughter may have been assaulted by the guy. 

Click to expand...

The Commish said:

No....I'm with you 100%  Nothing I have been provided scenario wise in this thread would cause me to behave like that towards my own flesh/blood.  Maybe I am just wired funny

Click to expand...

Henry Ford said:

Yeah. Many of that side want to hold it up as how terrible Ford is because the father didn’t even try to hide how much he supported Kavanaugh, until they realize what kind of bottom feeding low life it would take to say this and now it’s some private confessional where their confidence was betrayed by sneaky waiters. 

Click to expand...

jon_mx said:

Bottom feeding low lifes run in the family.  You have become a piece of work. 

Click to expand...

Henry Ford said:

And yet still, even then, I would not go the father of the person she’s claiming raped her how much I support his son, in case of the whole “boy who cried wolf” scenario.  And because, you know, my daughter may have been assaulted by the guy. 

Click to expand...

jon_mx said:

Now he raped her.  That is a new one.  The more that comes out about this story, the more absurd Ford's version becomes.  Not a single person can verify any details.  Blood should not be stronger than truth, and a person is not scum for thinking that.  

Click to expand...

The Commish said:

I can't even imagine what my daughter could do to make me skeptical of her if she accused someone of rape.  Maybe have accused someone else of raping her and then been provided proof she had intentionally and methodically lied about it?  

Click to expand...

Henry Ford said:

And yet still, even then, I would not go the father of the person she’s claiming raped her how much I support his son, in case of the whole “boy who cried wolf” scenario.  And because, you know, my daughter may have been assaulted by the guy. 

Click to expand...

jon_mx said:

Now he raped her.  That is a new one.  The more that comes out about this story, the more absurd Ford's version becomes.  Not a single person can verify any details.  Blood should not be stronger than truth, and a person is not scum for thinking that.  

Click to expand...

Henry Ford said:

Maybe you could read the posts you’re responding to before you go off on them.  Because we were discussing a scenario in which someone did accuse a person of rape. 

Or I guess you could just be super defensive and insulting while getting the facts of the discussion wrong. That’s a good option, too. 

Click to expand...

Henry Ford said:

Maybe you could read the posts you’re responding to before you go off on them.  Because we were discussing a scenario in which someone did accuse a person of rape. 

Or I guess you could just be super defensive and insulting while getting the facts of the discussion wrong. That’s a good option, too. 

Click to expand...

jon_mx said:

I did not mean to insult you, but you have changed a lot this last year.  You were a person with a good nature and sense of humor.  Two years of Trump has made you more bitter and combative and partisan.  

Click to expand...

jon_mx said:

I did not mean to insult you, but you have changed a lot this last year.  You were a person with a good nature and sense of humor.  Two years of Trump has made you more bitter and combative and partisan.  

Click to expand...

Henry Ford said:

I’m still a person with a good nature and a sense of humor.  The fact is there are topics and ideas that I feel very strongly about. That hasn’t changed in the slightest. What’s changed is that we discuss them on this board, often with the side I don’t agree with calling alleged sexual assault (or attempted rape) victims names, assuming that they are culpable and/or liars, so you see my opinions and thoughts on the matter.

It’s not Trump. I was accused of precisely this sort of thing in a discussion on transgender rights before he was ever elected.

On most matters, I’m happy to just toss in a joke and be lighthearted.  Not on all.  And certainly on the issues of rape, sexual assault, and related family issues I am certainly not.  

It’s possible when someone else used to seem great but now that you’re talking about alleged sexual assault (or attempted rape) victims derogatorily seems like a real jerk that a look inward is worthwhile. 

Click to expand...

During the winter of her freshman year, a drunken dormitory party unsettled her deeply. She and some classmates had been drinking heavily when, she says, a freshman named Brett Kavanaugh pulled down his pants and thrust his penis at her, prompting her to swat it away and inadvertently touch it. Some of the onlookers, who had been passing around a fake penis earlier in the evening, laughed.

...

While we found Dr. Ford’s allegations credible during a 10-month investigation, Ms. Ramirez’s story could be more fully corroborated. During his Senate testimony, Mr. Kavanaugh said that if the incident Ms. Ramirez described had occurred, it would have been “the talk of campus.” Our reporting suggests that it was.

At least seven people, including Ms. Ramirez’s mother, heard about the Yale incident long before Mr. Kavanaugh was a federal judge. Two of those people were classmates who learned of it just days after the party occurred, suggesting that it was discussed among students at the time.

We also uncovered a previously unreported story about Mr. Kavanaugh in his freshman year that echoes Ms. Ramirez’s allegation. A classmate, Max Stier, saw Mr. Kavanaugh with his pants down at a different drunken dorm party, where friends pushed his penis into the hand of a female student. Mr. Stier, who runs a nonprofit organization in Washington, notified senators and the F.B.I. about this account, but the F.B.I. did not investigate and Mr. Stier has declined to discuss it publicly. (We corroborated the story with two officials who have communicated with Mr. Stier.)

...

Click to expand...

jon_mx said:

I don't think I called her any names.  I called out her lies for things that were not related to her allegation.   

Click to expand...

caustic said:

Latest from NYT about the Deborah Ramirez accusations

Click to expand...

The Commish said:

Or maybe, there are some topics that have no room for good nature / sense of humor positions.  I think it's pretty clear that's the case for several of us...just read HF's rape thread.

Click to expand...

The Commish said:

jon_mx said:

Now he raped her.  That is a new one.  The more that comes out about this story, the more absurd Ford's version becomes.  Not a single person can verify any details.  Blood should not be stronger than truth, and a person is not scum for thinking that.  

Click to expand...

So, as one that doesn't really have an opinion of Kavanaugh based on Ford's testimony, I haven't paid close attention to this story and certainly haven't followed it.  What new facts have come out about the story?  I've missed something somewhere.

Click to expand...

whoknew said:

From the new article - 

Ms. Ramirez’s legal team gave the F.B.I. a list of at least 25 individuals who may have had corroborating evidence. But the bureau — in its supplemental background investigation — interviewed none of them, though we learned many of these potential witnesses tried in vain to reach the F.B.I. on their own.

Two F.B.I. agents interviewed Ms. Ramirez, telling her that they found her “credible.” But the Republican-controlled Senate had imposed strict limits on the investigation. “‘We have to wait to get authorization to do anything else,’” Bill Pittard, one of Ms. Ramirez’s lawyers, recalled the agents saying. “It was almost a little apologetic.”

Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat of Rhode Island and member of the Judiciary Committee, later said, “I would view the Ramirez allegations as not having been even remotely investigated.” Other Democrats agreed.

Click to expand...

The Commish said:

Do you happen to remember the circumstances the judiciary committee created for that "investigation"? 

Click to expand...

Henry Ford said:

Right. Cards on the table, I regularly represent sexual assault survivors as a lawyer; I am married to a multiple rape survivor whose parents and brother didn’t believe her either time: both when she was under the age of 18; and I grew up in a household where my stepfather used to regularly rape my mother.  I don’t have a sense of humor about rape and sexual assault.  I’m not good natured about rape and sexual assault allegations. Even those where people believe they’ve “proven” the accuser is a liar. 

Good reason why not: check out the new Netflix series “Unbelievable.” It’s based on the true story of Marie Adler.  She was charged and convinced to plead guilty to filing a false police report when she reported a rape.  

Turns out, funny story, her rapist was a serial rapist who ended up being sentenced to over 300 years in prison when he was finally caught years later. 

When a man reports he was punched in the face, we believe him first and investigate. When a man reports his car was stolen, we believe him first and investigate. When a woman reports she was assaulted, we ask “well, are we sure it was really rape? I mean, even if I believe her, she may well be wrong about it anyway. Honestly, she probably doesn’t remember.  Am I going to ruin some man’s life over a he said/she said situation? What does she really want out of this, anyway? Probably just wants attention.” Funny story, when a man reports he was raped, we generally believe him and investigate.

It’s disgusting. And it should be (and for many is) a source of pretty severe shame about how we treat people in this country. 

Click to expand...

The Commish said:

Anything on this other than the links posted in this thread?  All I am seeing is people talking about Kavanaugh's behavior as a teen...really doesn't alter "Ford's version" though it has the potential of giving it some context and color.

Click to expand...

jon_mx said:

There is still not one soul who has put these two together at such a party.  There is a ridiculous amount of one-sided postings here.  

Click to expand...

caustic said:

Latest from NYT about the Deborah Ramirez accusations

Click to expand...

During the winter of her freshman year, a drunken dormitory party unsettled her deeply. She and some classmates had been drinking heavily when, she says, a freshman named Brett Kavanaugh pulled down his pants and thrust his penis at her, prompting her to swat it away and inadvertently touch it. Some of the onlookers, who had been passing around a fake penis earlier in the evening, laughed.

...Mr. Kavanaugh, now a justice on the Supreme Court, has adamantly denied her claims.

...

But while we found Dr. Ford’s allegations credible during a 10-month investigation, Ms. Ramirez’s story could be more fully corroborated. During his Senate testimony, Mr. Kavanaugh said that if the incident Ms. Ramirez described had occurred, it would have been “the talk of campus.” Our reporting suggests that it was.

At least seven people, including Ms. Ramirez’s mother, heard about the Yale incident long before Mr. Kavanaugh was a federal judge. Two of those people were classmates who learned of it just days after the party occurred, suggesting that it was discussed among students at the time.

We also uncovered a previously unreported story about Mr. Kavanaugh in his freshman year that echoes Ms. Ramirez’s allegation. A classmate, Max Stier, saw Mr. Kavanaugh with his pants down at a different drunken dorm party, where friends pushed his penis into the hand of a female student. Mr. Stier, who runs a nonprofit organization in Washington, notified senators and the F.B.I. about this account, but the F.B.I. did not investigate and Mr. Stier has declined to discuss it publicly. (We corroborated the story with two officials who have communicated with Mr. Stier.)

...

Mr. Kavanaugh’s confirmation hearings were wrenching, as he strained to defend his character after Dr. Ford’s searing testimony. Thousands of miles away, Ms. Ramirez, who was never asked to testify, also found the hearings distressing. Her efforts to backstop her recollections with friends would later be cited as evidence that her memory was unreliable or that she was trying to construct a story rather than confirm one.

Ms. Ramirez’s legal team gave the F.B.I. a list of at least 25 individuals who may have had corroborating evidence. But the bureau — in its supplemental background investigation — interviewed none of them, though we learned many of these potential witnesses tried in vain to reach the F.B.I. on their own.

Two F.B.I. agents interviewed Ms. Ramirez, telling her that they found her “credible.” But the Republican-controlled Senate had imposed strict limits on the investigation. “‘We have to wait to get authorization to do anything else,’” Bill Pittard, one of Ms. Ramirez’s lawyers, recalled the agents saying. “It was almost a little apologetic.” ...

Click to expand...

KENNEDY: Are Ms. Ramirez’s allegations about you true?

KAVANAUGH: Those are not. She — no — no — none of the witnesses in the room support that. The — if that — that had happened, that would have been the talk of campus in our freshman dorm.

The New York Times reported that as recently as last week, she was calling other classmates seeking to — well, I’m not going to characterize it — but calling classmates last week and just seemed very — I’ll just stop there. But that’s not true. That’s not true.

Click to expand...

SaintsInDome2006 said:

You've probably lost track of what happened here (don't blame you it was a while ago) but I posted a story by a pro Kavanaugh writer in a pro-Kavanaugh blog (The Federalist) which was supposedly about how even Ford's family had rejected her assertion. IIRC you pointed out that there were reports that Ford was a partier and that her family must have been frustrated with her as a youth. I pointed out that would have been very consistent with the story she told of how she knew Kavanaugh and then you reverted to how no one had independently put them in the event Ford described. That final point doesn't require anything else, I mean (aside from certain data points like Kavanaugh's calendar) it stands on its own. What bothers me, what continually vexed me was Kavanaugh's weird unnecessary lying about seemingly small facts and points, primarily whether they knew each other, which BK claimed they did not. And I came away from that hearing from the various things that came from the reporting around it that they absolutely did know each other. And now as it turns out their fathers know each other and are apparently friends. There's the swirl about how fathers should treat daughters (or sons for that matter), and I still don't possibly comprehend your POV of that. But even that is just an iunteresting sidelight to the fact that Kavanaugh's family is apparently intertwined in the social milieu that Ford's family is in and he lied about that.

And now the Ramirez story is out. And I guess we can look at the testimony and it also seems like Kavanaugh lied about whether he would or could have known her. It's worse than bothersome. When you talk about proof or evidence when one party is lying about things while the other party seems near the truth but is vague about it and can't prove it, it starts to really drive my sense of balance off because it appears that the side that doesn't need to lie is lying and then the question is why.

Click to expand...

SaintsInDome2006 said:

You've probably lost track of what happened here (don't blame you it was a while ago) but I posted a story by a pro Kavanaugh writer in a pro-Kavanaugh blog (The Federalist) which was supposedly about how even Ford's family had rejected her assertion. IIRC you pointed out that there were reports that Ford was a partier and that her family must have been frustrated with her as a youth. I pointed out that would have been very consistent with the story she told of how she knew Kavanaugh and then you reverted to how no one had independently put them in the event Ford described. That final point doesn't require anything else, I mean (aside from certain data points like Kavanaugh's calendar) it stands on its own. What bothers me, what continually vexed me was Kavanaugh's weird unnecessary lying about seemingly small facts and points, primarily whether they knew each other, which BK claimed they did not. And I came away from that hearing from the various things that came from the reporting around it that they absolutely did know each other. And now as it turns out their fathers know each other and are apparently friends. There's the swirl about how fathers should treat daughters (or sons for that matter), and I still don't possibly comprehend your POV of that. But even that is just an interesting sidelight to the fact that Kavanaugh's family is apparently intertwined in the social milieu that Ford's family is in and he lied about that.

And now the Ramirez story is out. And I guess we can look at the testimony and it also seems like Kavanaugh lied about whether he would or could have known her. It's worse than bothersome. When you talk about proof or evidence when one party is lying about things while the other party seems near the truth but is vague about it and can't prove it, it starts to really drive my sense of balance off because it appears that the side that doesn't need to lie is lying and then the question is why.

Click to expand...

jon_mx said:

You are much more convinced that Kavanaugh lied than I am.  I think it is absurd to state it as a fact. 

Click to expand...

Dinsy Ejotuz said:

Impeach Gorsuch and Kavanaugh to restore democracy and the rule of law (respectively).

Click to expand...

timschochet said:

I can maybe get behind impeaching Kavanaugh, given the latest revelations, but the not Gorsuch. What McConnell did in stopping Garland was lousy but perfectly legal. 

Click to expand...

bigbottom said:

Before he testified, didn’t Kavanaugh give an interview where he painted himself as a good boy in high school who spent his time studying and going to church activities?  Am I remembering that right?

Click to expand...

timschochet said:

I can maybe get behind impeaching Kavanaugh, given the latest revelations, but the not Gorsuch. What McConnell did in stopping Garland was lousy but perfectly legal. 

Click to expand...

Dinsy Ejotuz said:

Impeaching Gorsuch would be lousy, but perfectly legal.

Click to expand...

bigbottom said:

What do you mean when you say “perfectly legal”?  You mean it isn’t a crime pursuant to a criminal statute?  Because I view it as an abdication of his constitutional duty.

Click to expand...

Henry Ford said:

Right. Cards on the table, I regularly represent sexual assault survivors as a lawyer; I am married to a multiple rape survivor whose parents and brother didn’t believe her either time: both when she was under the age of 18; and I grew up in a household where my stepfather used to regularly rape my mother.  I don’t have a sense of humor about rape and sexual assault.  I’m not good natured about rape and sexual assault allegations. Even those where people believe they’ve “proven” the accuser is a liar. 

Good reason why not: check out the new Netflix series “Unbelievable.” It’s based on the true story of Marie Adler.  She was charged and convinced to plead guilty to filing a false police report when she reported a rape.  

Turns out, funny story, her rapist was a serial rapist who ended up being sentenced to over 300 years in prison when he was finally caught years later. 

When a man reports he was punched in the face, we believe him first and investigate. When a man reports his car was stolen, we believe him first and investigate. When a woman reports she was assaulted, we ask “well, are we sure it was really rape? I mean, even if I believe her, she may well be wrong about it anyway. Honestly, she probably doesn’t remember.  Am I going to ruin some man’s life over a he said/she said situation? What does she really want out of this, anyway? Probably just wants attention.” Funny story, when a man reports he was raped, we generally believe him and investigate.

It’s disgusting. And it should be (and for many is) a source of pretty severe shame about how we treat people in this country. 

Click to expand...

timschochet said:

But not justified. 

Click to expand...

whoknew said:

From twitter - 

Buzzfeed tried to obtain thru FOIA & litigation the FBI’s background investigation of Kavanaugh. It’s been denied based on...executive privilege. It’s 500+ pages long.

--

What, exactly, is the executive privilege here?

Click to expand...

jon_mx said:

You are much more convinced that Kavanaugh lied than I am.  I think it is absurd to state it as a fact. 

Click to expand...

whoknew said:

From twitter - 

Buzzfeed tried to obtain thru FOIA & litigation the FBI’s background investigation of Kavanaugh. It’s been denied based on...executive privilege. It’s 500+ pages long.

--

What, exactly, is the executive privilege here?

Click to expand...

zoonation said:

I seriously question the judgment of anyone who can listen to his evidence at the confirmation hearing and the Ford hearing and not conclude he was lying.  

Click to expand...

zoonation said:

I seriously question the judgment of anyone who can listen to his evidence at the confirmation hearing and the Ford hearing and not conclude he was lying.  

Devil’s Triangle.   A drinking game.   #### off Brett.  I’m not going through it all again.  He lied about multiple things and lacked candour about a whole host of things.  His evidence was pathetic imo.  

But more than that and most of all, I believe Ford.  That woman was not lying.  It is not at all surprising that she could not remember details about facts surrounding the event from 35 years ago.  She remembered the assault itself.  She told her therapist about it years before Kavanaugh was nominated.  

I believe Ramirez.  

Stier appears to be a highly credible person.  

So, we are left with two choices.  

1.  Believe a guy who, at best, tried to hide or downplay what a blackout drunk and misogynist he has in high school and at Yale and who misled congress about several things during his confirmation hearing or, at worst, flat out lied about it (more likely).  

2.  Believe several accounts from victims and eye witnesses that confirm everything he was trying so hard to hide in 1.   

I’d bet my mortgage Ford is telling the truth.  I’d also bet a lot of money there are many others.  

Click to expand...

zoonation said:

I seriously question the judgment of anyone who can listen to his evidence at the confirmation hearing and the Ford hearing and not conclude he was lying.  

Devil’s Triangle.   A drinking game.   #### off Brett.  I’m not going through it all again.  He lied about multiple things and lacked candour about a whole host of things.  His evidence was pathetic imo.  

But more than that and most of all, I believe Ford.  That woman was not lying.  It is not at all surprising that she could not remember details about facts surrounding the event from 35 years ago.  She remembered the assault itself.  She told her therapist about it years before Kavanaugh was nominated.  

I believe Ramirez.  

Stier appears to be a highly credible person.  

So, we are left with two choices.  

1.  Believe a guy who, at best, tried to hide or downplay what a blackout drunk and misogynist he has in high school and at Yale and who misled congress about several things during his confirmation hearing or, at worst, flat out lied about it (more likely).  

2.  Believe several accounts from victims and eye witnesses that confirm everything he was trying so hard to hide in 1.   

I’d bet my mortgage Ford is telling the truth.  I’d also bet a lot of money there are many others.  

Click to expand...