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timschochet

Anti-Semitism

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

For whatever it’s worth (not that anybody asked me), I think accusations of trolling are leveled far too often.

Tobias’s post was excessively inflammatory in rhetoric and possibly in substance, but I think he believed every word of it. He wasn’t trolling. He wasn’t insincerely claiming something he didn’t believe simply to waste another person’s time or to get a rise out of someone. He was stating his heartfelt opinion using gratuitously incendiary language.

That may justify a suspension for not being excellent, but it’s starkly different from trolling.

That's cool. We can disagree there.

It was completely unexcellent and I believe designed as a shot to attempt to "score points" and get a reaction from the "other" side. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but he very well may truly believe it. Doesn't make it any less trolling in my opinion. But to be fair, I've little interest in debating the actual word of what's trolling. Either way, we're definitely not having what he did here. 

Edited by Joe Bryant

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For anyone who is interested, The Daily podcast (New York Times) did an interview with rashida tlaib today. She came off well, and most definitely did not sound anti-Semitic. Further her interview in which she uttered the comments regarding the holocaust was played. She absolutely did not try to convey pride over the holocaust. Her words in context were expressing pride for the Palestinians helping the Jews after WW2. 

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2 hours ago, Glass Joe said:

For anyone who is interested, The Daily podcast (New York Times) did an interview with rashida tlaib today. She came off well, and most definitely did not sound anti-Semitic. Further her interview in which she uttered the comments regarding the holocaust was played. She absolutely did not try to convey pride over the holocaust. Her words in context were expressing pride for the Palestinians helping the Jews after WW2. 

Clearly, you don't "know what she means" when she says what she says.  I think there's a special decoder ring involved but you'll have to consult the experts on that.

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16 hours ago, timschochet said:

First off I reject the analogy of the United States. If the USA was the size of Vermont and surrounded by enemies on all sides, I certainly would not be for open immigration. The immigrants who come to this country want to be part of our system, they want the freedom and the economic and social opportunities. And we have plenty of room for them. Those are the key differences. 

Surrounded by enemies?  This is Netanyahu think.  Most Palestinians are just human beings trying to live a normal life.  When you characterize them as terrorists seeking to destroy Israel, I think you are being xenophobic.  

A better analogy would be if Vermont settlers herded a bunch of Vermont natives into a ghetto, then tried to say the natives are a demographic threat.  

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2 hours ago, ren hoek said:

Surrounded by enemies?  This is Netanyahu think.  Most Palestinians are just human beings trying to live a normal life.  When you characterize them as terrorists seeking to destroy Israel, I think you are being xenophobic.  

A better analogy would be if Vermont settlers herded a bunch of Vermont natives into a ghetto, then tried to say the natives are a demographic threat.  

I didn’t characterize Palestinians as terrorists. But the sad facts are that their two governments, freely elected, consistently publicly call for the violent destruction of the state of Israel and have done so ever since 1948. The government of Gaza, Hamas, has gone even further, declaring a holy war against Jews and calling for their complete extermination. They engage in terrible propaganda in their media and schools, hateful bigoted anti-Semitism. Frankly, they make Netanyahu’s own bigotry much easier. 

So let’s not pretend that if these people were allowed to move into Israel it would be one big happy country. It would not. It wouldn’t be South Africa in 1992. Although there is no good analogy, the best one I can come up with is India/Pakistan 1949: massacres, genocide, destruction of social order, perhaps millions dead. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/15/2019 at 8:26 AM, TobiasFunke said:

Yes, I agree. The issue here is the disgraceful, pathetic, rage-inducing duplicity of many conservatives who have co-opted anti-Semitism for their own Islamophobic political gain on the one hand while doing virtually everything they can to ignore of even embrace white nationalism on the other hand.  They are duplicitous bloodsuckers feeding on bigotry. This poster is merely echoing their disingenuous garbage on a much smaller stage.

Here's a clip from Laura Ingraham's Fox News show where she and Matt Schlapp (the chair of the American Conservative Union and a former member of the George W Bush administration) accuse two Muslim congresswomen of anti-Semitism while Fox runs the chryon reading: "Exposed: the Left's anti-Semitism probem."

Here's a clip from Ingraham's show last night promoting the "prominent voices" of a number of "conservatives."  Among them are a number of far-right hatemongers, including Paul Nehlen. Here is Paul Nehlen calling for the expulsion of Jews from America and wearing a t-shirt glorifying Robert Bowers, the Tree of Life shooter who killed 11 Jews in their house of worship. He's also posted a photoshop of himself in the Oval Office surrounded by a bunch of bloody Orthodox Jewish heads of spikes that I won't repost here, among countless other horrifying things.

The mods suspended me two weeks for the above post, first because it was wrongly described as trolling (ironic since my previous suspension was for an innocuous post about responding to trolls in the abstract whereby the mods informed me that "not everyone who disagrees with you is a troll," but that's an absurdity for another time), and then when one of their own staff pointed out that it obviously wasn't trolling, because what I said was "completely unexcellent."

So ... yeah.

I enjoy my time in this community and I have a lot of affection for many of the posters here. I think places like this that foster an friendly online environment are performing a valuable service in a time when many middle-aged men in America are increasingly depressed and isolated, and they've got my respect and gratitude for that. But if the mods insist on making this a place where I can't accurately describe people who use anti-Semitism as a tool to enable Islamophobia and anti-left sentiment one week only to ignore, enable and even embrace anti-Semitism the next week, it's clearly no longer the place for me.

 

 

Edited by TobiasFunke
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Stick around Tobias.  You articulate your points well.

 

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3 hours ago, TobiasFunke said:

Here's a clip from Laura Ingraham's Fox News show where she and Matt Schlapp (the chair of the American Conservative Union and a former member of the George W Bush administration) accuse two Muslim congresswomen of anti-Semitism while Fox runs the chryon reading: "Exposed: the Left's anti-Semitism probem."

Here's a clip from Ingraham's show last night promoting the "prominent voices" of a number of "conservatives."  Among them are a number of far-right hatemongers, including Paul Nehlen. Here is Paul Nehlen calling for the expulsion of Jews from America and wearing a t-shirt glorifying Robert Bowers, the Tree of Life shooter who killed 11 Jews in their house of worship. He's also posted a photoshop of himself in the Oval Office surrounded by a bunch of bloody Orthodox Jewish heads of spikes that I won't repost here, among countless other horrifying things.

The mods suspended me two weeks for the above post, first because it was wrongly described as trolling (ironic since my previous suspension was for an innocuous post about responding to trolls in the abstract whereby the mods informed me that "not everyone who disagrees with you is a troll," but that's an absurdity for another time), and then when one of their own staff pointed out that it obviously wasn't trolling, because what I said was "completely unexcellent."

So ... yeah.

I enjoy my time in this community and I have a lot of affection for many of the posters here. I think places like this that foster an friendly online environment are performing a valuable service in a time when many middle-aged men in America are increasingly depressed and isolated, and they've got my respect and gratitude for that. But if the mods insist on making this a place where I can't accurately describe people who use anti-Semitism as a tool to enable Islamophobia and anti-left sentiment one week only to ignore, enable and even embrace anti-Semitism the next week, it's clearly no longer the place for me.

 

 

The moderators misinterpret posts and respond to complaints. I strongly doubt that they were trying to make a statement about anti-Semitism or anything else. 

Please stay @TobiasFunke, you’re one of the very best posters here. 

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18 minutes ago, timschochet said:

The moderators misinterpret posts and respond to complaints. I strongly doubt that they were trying to make a statement about anti-Semitism or anything else. 

Please stay @TobiasFunke, you’re one of the very best posters here. 

Thanks, I appreciate the sentiment.

Anyway, further support for my very true and accurate statement that many conservatives co-opt anti-Semitism in bad faith to spread hatred and division and then turn around and ignore or even embrace it when it suits their purposes: It's now almost 1 PM eastern time and Fox News (which I think we can all agree is operated by and marketed to "many conservatives" and which obviously pushed the Omar/Tlaib anti-Semitism allegations ad nauseam) has not uttered a single word about what Ingraham did last night. link

I think calling this behavior "disgraceful, pathetic, disingenuous garbage" is entirely accurate- if anything it's too mild.  I also think it's important to call out such behavior for what it is. It appears the moderators disagree, so :shrug:

 

 

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4 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

Thanks, I appreciate the sentiment.

Anyway, further support for my very true and accurate statement that many conservatives co-opt anti-Semitism in bad faith to spread hatred and division and then turn around and ignore or even embrace it when it suits their purposes: It's now almost 1 PM eastern time and Fox News (which I think we can all agree is operated by and marketed to "many conservatives" and which obviously pushed the Omar/Tlaib anti-Semitism allegations ad nauseam) has not uttered a single word about what Ingraham did last night. link

I think calling this behavior "disgraceful, pathetic, disingenuous garbage" is entirely accurate- if anything it's too mild.  I also think it's important to call out such behavior for what it is. It appears the moderators disagree, so :shrug:

 

 

The mods want us to be excellent to each other. Your post that earned you the timeout wasn't being excellent. 

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4 hours ago, TobiasFunke said:

Here's a clip from Laura Ingraham's Fox News show where she and Matt Schlapp (the chair of the American Conservative Union and a former member of the George W Bush administration) accuse two Muslim congresswomen of anti-Semitism while Fox runs the chryon reading: "Exposed: the Left's anti-Semitism probem."

Here's a clip from Ingraham's show last night promoting the "prominent voices" of a number of "conservatives."  Among them are a number of far-right hatemongers, including Paul Nehlen. Here is Paul Nehlen calling for the expulsion of Jews from America and wearing a t-shirt glorifying Robert Bowers, the Tree of Life shooter who killed 11 Jews in their house of worship. He's also posted a photoshop of himself in the Oval Office surrounded by a bunch of bloody Orthodox Jewish heads of spikes that I won't repost here, among countless other horrifying things.

The mods suspended me two weeks for the above post, first because it was wrongly described as trolling (ironic since my previous suspension was for an innocuous post about responding to trolls in the abstract whereby the mods informed me that "not everyone who disagrees with you is a troll," but that's an absurdity for another time), and then when one of their own staff pointed out that it obviously wasn't trolling, because what I said was "completely unexcellent."

So ... yeah.

I enjoy my time in this community and I have a lot of affection for many of the posters here. I think places like this that foster an friendly online environment are performing a valuable service in a time when many middle-aged men in America are increasingly depressed and isolated, and they've got my respect and gratitude for that. But if the mods insist on making this a place where I can't accurately describe people who use anti-Semitism as a tool to enable Islamophobia and anti-left sentiment one week only to ignore, enable and even embrace anti-Semitism the next week, it's clearly no longer the place for me.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVrEwCa8nSA

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21 hours ago, TobiasFunke said:

Thanks, I appreciate the sentiment.

Anyway, further support for my very true and accurate statement that many conservatives co-opt anti-Semitism in bad faith to spread hatred and division and then turn around and ignore or even embrace it when it suits their purposes: It's now almost 1 PM eastern time and Fox News (which I think we can all agree is operated by and marketed to "many conservatives" and which obviously pushed the Omar/Tlaib anti-Semitism allegations ad nauseam) has not uttered a single word about what Ingraham did last night. link

I think calling this behavior "disgraceful, pathetic, disingenuous garbage" is entirely accurate- if anything it's too mild.  I also think it's important to call out such behavior for what it is. It appears the moderators disagree, so :shrug:

 

 

This is an Israel-based, online newspaper: far-left-california-democrats-want-to-link-israeli-govt-to-pittsburgh-massacre

Only reason I saw this is because it was shared by an Israeli Jew I'm friends with on Facebook.

To act like you are the final authority on what is "disgraceful, pathetic, disingenuous garbage" and then by extension paint other posters with the same "pathetic" brush, "poster is merely echoing their disingenuous garbage." You leave no room for any alternative explanation or discussion and resort to tar and feathering.

That's not excellent.

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9 minutes ago, Trump Tight said:

This is an Israel-based, online newspaper: far-left-california-democrats-want-to-link-israeli-govt-to-pittsburgh-massacre

Only reason I saw this is because it was shared by an Israeli Jew I'm friends with on Facebook.

To act like you are the final authority on what is "disgraceful, pathetic, disingenuous garbage" and then by extension paint other posters with the same "pathetic" brush, "poster is merely echoing their disingenuous garbage." You leave no room for any alternative explanation or discussion and resort to tar and feathering.

That's not excellent.

Maybe a day, if even that.  Two weeks is crazy.  I guess I can see where it was unexcellent, but I can't believe he got banned for that.  I can't believe someone wanted to report that.  Should be much different weight given to posts attacking substance versus attacking the poster, although often the former is obviously meant to achieve the latter. 

I've had plenty of beefs with @TobiasFunke; other than the astonishingly low attack that I would gladly trade dead Yemeni civilians to keep Trump in office, which was nothing but pure unadulterated lies and makes my blood boil to even think about it again, I've never felt like Tobias should be banned for, let's say, expressing his thoughts too artfully.  Tobias is a good contributor on net.  When push comes to shove I don't think he harbors real animosity toward anyone.  

I dunno, it's a tough line the mods walk.  I just feel like dialogue was so much better and more participatory when we let some haymakers fly here and there.  It seems like people can report posts that are just mildly bothersome to them now.  Given that the strikezone is about the size of a cup of tea these days, I think we can afford to loosen up a bit on the reporting function.  

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Posted (edited)
On 5/15/2019 at 6:13 AM, knowledge dropper said:

Falsehood   

No backtrack.  His post holds no more water than mine earlier.  

Please address the issue and not the poster. 

KD I addressed with you that you had posted a YouTube handle of someone who was obviously an admirer of Oswald Mosely and (albeit in a different video) suggested that he and Hitler were ‘right’. I only mention that because of Tobias’ post above. Please consider your sources and the purposes of the sources and voices you are taking in and disseminating.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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Laura Ingraham putting this guy up is a disgrace. She should apologize or be taken off the air. Fox’s silence and then pushback is also a disgrace. 

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On 5/15/2019 at 5:10 AM, knowledge dropper said:

Splice or edit her comments however you want.  I’ve heard enough from her over the past few months to know what she is.  

I was giving full context there.

I caught a sort of mini-debate between Candace Owens and Cornell West on Fox a week or so ago.

One thing I noticed was that Owens defended Trump’s claim that Maxine Waters is stupid (‘low IQ’), which is remarkable given Waters is a committee chairman who just outdueled Steve Mnuchin in a hearing.

Another was that Owens claimed that West was being inaccurate in stating that blacks had been affected by Trump’s ‘xenophobia’, and she tried to defend Trump on this wordplay. Owens pointed out that xenophobia literally means fear of ‘the other’ and so blacks should have nothing to fear. 

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9 minutes ago, timschochet said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/31/media/laura-ingraham-paul-nehlen-extremists/index.html

Nehlan approves of the Pittsburgh shootings because it’s a good thing to “rid the white lands of all Jews.” 

Seriously, Laura? You should be ashamed. 

It’s beyond disgusting. I’ll add that Ingraham likes to retweet VDare on her twitter feed. - It’s hard to follow if she is just that pernicious or is there something manifestly wrong in her morally or intellectually. Does she know who these people are when she features them or just reading off scripts?

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Posted (edited)
On 6/1/2019 at 10:15 AM, Trump Tight said:

This is an Israel-based, online newspaper: far-left-california-democrats-want-to-link-israeli-govt-to-pittsburgh-massacre

Only reason I saw this is because it was shared by an Israeli Jew I'm friends with on Facebook.

To act like you are the final authority on what is "disgraceful, pathetic, disingenuous garbage" and then by extension paint other posters with the same "pathetic" brush, "poster is merely echoing their disingenuous garbage." You leave no room for any alternative explanation or discussion and resort to tar and feathering.

That's not excellent. 

You are missing the part that makes the behavior so terrible. People are welcome to think some of the things Omar and Tlaib have said was anti-Semitic, or that opposing Israel's priorities and approach amounts to anti-Semitism. I think they're very wrong, but there is certainly room for differences of opinion on that.  Nothing wrong with being overly vigilant on this subject.

The problem comes when people who claim to care about anti-Semitism when the alleged bigotry comes from the mouths of minority women (particularly Muslims, given the obvious tensions that don't need to be exacerbated) then turn around and ignore or even encourage it when similar tropes or far more detestable statements come from white men. That sort of hypocrisy is repulsive and disgraceful; both because its so obviously an attempt to sow division and Islamophobia for political/ratings gain and because of the subject about which they are being hypocritical.

Edited by TobiasFunke

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58 minutes ago, TobiasFunke said:

You are missing the part that makes the behavior so terrible. People are welcome to think some of the things Omar and Tlaib have said was anti-Semitic, or that opposing Israel's priorities and approach amounts to anti-Semitism. I think they're very wrong, but there is certainly room for differences of opinion on that.  Nothing wrong with being overly vigilant on this subject.

The problem comes when people who claim to care about anti-Semitism when the alleged bigotry comes from the mouths of minority women (particularly Muslims, given the obvious tensions that don't need to be exacerbated) then turn around and ignore or even encourage it when similar tropes or far more detestable statements come from white men. That sort of hypocrisy is repulsive and disgraceful; both because its so obviously an attempt to sow division and Islamophobia for political/ratings gain and because of the subject about which they are being hypocritical.

People disappoint me all the time, often in new and ever more objectionable ways.  I sympathize with your passions.  I have them too.  some times one has to run with their passions and accept the consequences as they arise.  The thing is, if we are true to ourselves accepting consequences is a small thing. The dignity with which we do so ought to flail to shame those who are reprehensible, yet they are oblivious to our integrity.

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3 hours ago, TobiasFunke said:

The problem comes when people who claim to care about anti-Semitism when the alleged bigotry comes from the mouths of minority women (particularly Muslims, given the obvious tensions that don't need to be exacerbated) then turn around and ignore or even encourage it when similar tropes or far more detestable statements come from white men. That sort of hypocrisy is repulsive and disgraceful; both because its so obviously an attempt to sow division and Islamophobia for political/ratings gain and because of the subject about which they are being hypocritical.

The history of faux horror at the Omar and Tlaib comments by ingraham is very important here. Her segment on censorship(i realize that is a very loose description of the segment) could actually be defended if she had not engaged in this prior behavior and if she had apologized for putting that guy up there. I find it very believable that she didn't put the graphic together and could have bought that she was making a point about censorship and people were digging too deep into things if the history didnt exist.

But you cant act like the entire left has an anti-semitism issue and then engage in behavior like this and DOUBLE DOWN on it and expect a rational person to find you to be a genuine person. You just can't.  

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4 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

But you cant act like the entire left has an anti-semitism issue and then engage in behavior like this and DOUBLE DOWN on it and expect a rational person to find you to be a genuine person. You just can't.  

"You can't oppose [insert something conservatives were outraged about here*], and then support a conservative who engages in similar behavior, and then expect a rational person to find you to be credible" is pretty much the defining theme of the current Republican party.

* examples: "marital infidelity", "church indifference", "evading Vietnam", "sexual harassment", etc., etc., etc.

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On 5/31/2019 at 9:26 AM, TobiasFunke said:

I enjoy my time in this community and I have a lot of affection for many of the posters here. I think places like this that foster an friendly online environment are performing a valuable service in a time when many middle-aged men in America are increasingly depressed and isolated, and they've got my respect and gratitude for that. But if the mods insist on making this a place where I can't accurately describe people who use anti-Semitism as a tool to enable Islamophobia and anti-left sentiment one week only to ignore, enable and even embrace anti-Semitism the next week, it's clearly no longer the place for me.

Maybe many middle-aged men are increasingly isolated and depressed because they waste countless hours of each day sitting in front of a computer alone and posting anonymously to strangers on a message board rather than:

(A) doing something productive that will give them a sense of fulfillment; 

(B) having actual human contact that helps build meaningful relationships; and

(C) engaging in physical activity that helps combat depression.

Excessive message boarding and social media use is exacerbating the depression problem more than it is combatting it.

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