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SwampDawg

*** Official 2019 Dolphins Thread *** Tank and Rebuild in full progress

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8 hours ago, travdogg said:

So the rumor is the Texans offered their 2020 1st and Clowney for Tunsil. I personally think the Dolphins would be nuts not to take that. Clowney is only slightly older than Tunsil and plays an equally valuable position, and an extra 2020 1st does a lot for a rebuilding team. Who knows where the Texans may finish, The AFC South seems wide open to me. 

Problem as I understand it is that the Fins could not negotiate a long term deal with Clowney until after the season, and may lose him.  According to posts on these boards, they would get a third round compensatory pick for him if they lost him, but then it becomes a young franchise LT who seems to be beloved by his teammates for a mid-ish 1st rounder and a late 3rd.  I dont think you do that.  If they throw in a 3rd and also take on some salary dumps like Alonzo and Stills then that may work.  I think for Miami to trade Tunsil it would have to completely lopsided in their favor.  He is a perfect building block for a rebuild, so losing him just means that you need to use a first rounder to replace him, and cross your fingers that you chose the right guy and not Erek Flowers.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, ChuckLiddell said:

Problem as I understand it is that the Fins could not negotiate a long term deal with Clowney until after the season, and may lose him.  According to posts on these boards, they would get a third round compensatory pick for him if they lost him, but then it becomes a young franchise LT who seems to be beloved by his teammates for a mid-ish 1st rounder and a late 3rd.  I dont think you do that.  If they throw in a 3rd and also take on some salary dumps like Alonzo and Stills then that may work.  I think for Miami to trade Tunsil it would have to completely lopsided in their favor.  He is a perfect building block for a rebuild, so losing him just means that you need to use a first rounder to replace him, and cross your fingers that you chose the right guy and not Erek Flowers.

This :goodposting:

I see a lot of people saying things about this possible trade, and they’re looking at it without factoring in that Clowney cannot negotiate with his new team, making him essentially a one year rental. He’s a really good/great player, but his value isn’t very high at the moment. I wouldn’t touch any trade that involves Tunsil (unless we’re talking multiple first round picks, which is unlikely) and I really hope Miami doesn’t trade him. Even if they dump another contract, I don’t think it’s worth it. Now, if there’s a way to bring him in without giving up Tunsil, I’m all ears. 

 

As as far as the starting QB situation, I’m kind of glad they’re starting Fitz. I would have been ok with either decision, but it makes sense to let Fitz start if they feel like Rosen can use a little more time. As has been pointed out, the beginning of the schedule is rough. Let the veteran start the season, and put Rosen in after the first month or so and see what he’s got. The one thing that can’t happen is for Fitz to play decent (say they go 2-3 in the first 5 games and he’s playing ok) and then the staff thinks they have a shot at going to the playoffs. That would set the franchise back even further. Everyone knows we’re not going anywhere anytime soon, and it’s essential that we find out if Rosen is a guy we can move forward with before this season is over. 

Edited by Man In The Box

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Posted (edited)

Unless the Dolphins win a stupidly lopsided deal for Tunsil, I don't do it.  

Edited by TripleThreat
cleaned it

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On 8/30/2019 at 9:46 AM, Man In The Box said:

 

 I wouldn’t touch any trade that involves Tunsil (unless we’re talking multiple first round picks, which is unlikely) and I really hope Miami doesn’t trade him. Even if they dump another contract, I don’t think it’s worth it.

 

Ok, so this actually happened and it’s what needed to be done. The next year are two are going to be really rough, but it’s the way to do a true rebuild. No more putting band aids on gun shot wounds. No more 7-9 or 8-8 seasons. Or even 6-10. We’re gonna have to take it in the chin for a bit, but we have an astounding amount of draft capital now. I’m pretty happy :shrug:

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Peak tanking for Tua today.  They clearly can't think much of Rosen

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This is the way to do it. Find out of Rosen is good, while tanking and compile tons of good draft picks.

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On 8/30/2019 at 7:11 AM, TripleThreat said:

Unless the Dolphins win a stupidly lopsided deal for Tunsil, I don't do it.  

So, is this stupidly lopsided enough for ya?

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58 minutes ago, IHEARTFF said:

This is the way to do it. Find out of Rosen is good, while tanking and compile tons of good draft picks.

We may not find out. Rosen is just going to get killed back there with a trash O-line just like he had in AZ.   

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4 hours ago, elmanx said:

We may not find out. Rosen is just going to get killed back there with a trash O-line just like he had in AZ.   

Yeah this is a the big downside of all this, for sure. The current roster is the worst of my lifetime as a fan since ‘85. They are going to have to scour the wire for some bodies. 

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1 minute ago, Man In The Box said:

Yeah this is a the big downside of all this, for sure. The current roster is the worst of my lifetime as a fan since ‘85. They are going to have to scour the wire for some bodies. 

I've mostly blocked out their 1-15 season, but that roster might give this one a run for it's money in the Dolphins' worst roster HOF. 

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5 hours ago, JetMaxx said:

I’m sorry for you all.

It’s all good. They’re finally doing things the right way. The old regimes would have undoubtedly bent over and given Houston whatever they wanted for Clowney, they would have overpaid for a bunch of other mediocre pieces, found a way to win 7-8 games, and they’d continue to be stuck in football purgatory. Better days may finally be ahead. 

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Really surprised by getting 2 first rounders but anything less would have been criminal. It’s going to be a rough few years but as others have said at least it seems an attempt to do it right, just can’t screw it up.

i agree Rosen starts after the bye. The biggest question is do we find out enough behind this o-line? And then if he isn’t the answer do we go after Tua, Fromm, Herbert this year or build the line this year and go all in on Lawrence in 2021?

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8 hours ago, elmanx said:

So, is this stupidly lopsided enough for ya?

Yes. Feels like ripping the bandaid off vs the excruciating bit by bit. 

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They’ve sucked for 20+ years - endless 6-10, 7-9, 8-8, etc mediocrity.

Everyone must go.

#Tank4Tua

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12 minutes ago, =Smackdown= said:

They’ve sucked for 20+ years - endless 6-10, 7-9, 8-8, etc mediocrity.

Everyone must go.

#Tank4Tua

Don't do this.  Tua = Mariota.

 

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On our way to the first 2 overall picks in the draft!

Tunsil looked bad.  Not rooting against him for any reasons having to do with him as a person or player - he seems like a good dude and did nothing wrong whatsoever...but I still enjoyed watching him get beat only because it helped justify the trade.  Happy to see Stills make a big play.  Those guys must be ecstatic to have been traded.

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On 8/31/2019 at 9:57 PM, IHEARTFF said:

This is the way to do it. Find out of Rosen is good, while tanking and compile tons of good draft picks.

Agreed - but only if you think they have the right people in the front office to not mess up the picks? Not sure they have the right people in place.

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This is a sore topic for a Miami born native who witnessed a coaching legend in Don Shula finally run out of town. My first home game was 1983 when Marino came in and permanently replaced David Woodley in the Orange Bowl vs the Chiefs, the next year Marino would throw for over 5,000 yards and almost 50 TDs as the 1st QB ever to do it. 

We then watched the team handed over from Shula to Jimmy Johnson who had a lot of Miami Shine form his days with the Canes, fans were openly cheering for Shula to retire thinking Jimmy would turn this place into Dallas East...well not so much. He tried to quick fix this place like he did in Dallas winning 2 SB in under 5 years if I recall, he wasn't there that long. And so after '98 he was about done in Miami and it felt like the team was heading in a different direction but not horrible. Instead of retiring or leaving, JJ opted to come back for the '99 season and tragically walked Marino to a Playoff Loss 61-7 drubbing by the Jacksonville Jaguars in his last game as an NFL QB.

-The Wandstadt Years consisted of Jay Fiedler and Lamar Smith and Chris Chambers came along during this run I think. The team slowly fell into total mediocrity but they did win a playoff game at the start of Dave's reign here.

-The last 15 years we have had Tony Sporano under Bill Parcells as the Team President and the Phins were trying to win the old fashioned way of power running mixed with some passing, lot of FGs were kicked when we needed a TD, the revolving door at coaching has been a tragedy for the most part. We had Dumbo Ears who couldn't manage a locker room to a guy who ran the Oklahoma Drill 1st in practice-Dan Campbell. It's been pretty bad although Adam Gase tried to work with Tannehill.  

 

-Some other lowlights include Bully-Gate, still waiting for Curtis Martin and Tony Dungy to arrive but I don't think they were ever coming here to clean things up. 

-An owner who is a total baffoon. I kind of applauded Kenny Stills although it's not his political opinions that I stand with him on, just the balls on him to mock the owner, the man writing his paychecks, Kenny Stills I salute you even though we don't vote for the same politicians, it's alright. 

-Let's deal with the 2017 draft that Chris Grier had a big hand in and that includes Charles Harris perhaps the worst DE in the NFL in quite some time coming out of the 1st round. In 2 seasons I think he has 3 sacks perhaps, guy has been a total whiff. McMillan who was a 2nd round pick in the same draft wasn't even hardly used this past Sunday, was used more on special teams, what is going on in Miami? Last year Fitzpatrick looked alright but he was ushered in and out of the game, he hasn't been talked up much by the coaches and he was torched like the rest of the secondary this past week. '

-Rashad Jones never would come out of the game with any of the previous coaches, absolutely would not allow anyone to play his position at any time in the game whether they were ahead or behind he felt a duty to start and finish...he was held to like 40 snaps this past weekend out of a possible 72 I believe, things are just not right in Miami. And Jones should be traded for any Safety in the 2nd or 3rd year of their rookie deal because that's all Miami cares about right now. 

-If you ever hear Chris Grier speak or go back to when he was introduced by Mike Tannenbaum a couple years back as his future replacement...he didn't call him that of course but that's exactly what Ross-the owner ends up doing. Grier doesn't sound intelligent to me and doesn't invoke a feeling of confidence that he can get it done. 

 

-I want folks to know and understand that open tanking like this on a level we have never seen has to be the lowest common denominator move you can make. What I mean is this is not an intelligent move because if it were then back when Andrew Luck was the No 1 pick you would not have allowed Tony Sporano to start winning football games when the Phins were 0-7 and in prime targeting range to take him but instead they ripped off a couple wins and THEN FIRED Sporano before the end of the season. ANd they screwed that up when they extended him in one of the most uncomfortable press conferences and interviews you will ever see...never has a Head Coach been so underwhelmed to be extended for a season or two. 

-You don't allow a gift like Tunsil that fell in your lap for a middle 1st round pick, you build around that typically. I actually was not as big a fan as some of this guy and he was set to make a huge amount in his next contract. And if you had to let Stills go 2 get not just one but two 1st round picks coming back then I guess it's worth it. In fact letting some of these guys go isn't that bad of an idea but the timing was terrible and they look so bad on TV this past week, it sounds good in theory to tank but let's see if they can even field a team in a couple of weeks. If they keep losing 50-10(NE and Dallas next up) then I think guys like Rashad Jones are going to simply ask for an outright release and that will be when the mutiny starts. Or maybe cooler heads prevail and say just pay me my money until you get me out of here...hard to imagine the Phins keep him all year. In fact every week guys like Jones take the field that you know in the end won't be here, you're risking getting an asset in return.   

-And now let's discuss the plans to build this BattleTanking Station because while Ross might have the perfect person to run them into the ground, he also gave Flores a 5 year guarantee that no matter how bad the Phins are after the strip down, he gets paid in full for doing this. I'm sure Flores can always go back to being a DC but how easy of the Phins to evoke the Rooney Rule here making it even easier to hire someone that may or may not be qualified to be a Head Coach...not every OC/DC is fit to be a head coach. Flores reminds me of an old boss I had who was rule stickler and while that was OK he also wanted to run things like it was the actual 1950s and Flores right now seems hellbent on breaking the will and moral of any of the old school players or leaders, Flores will decide moving forward who has a leadership position but right now he is acting like Joe Clark(Lean on Me) and I'm not sure that's a recipe for success in 2020...I know it's 2019 but this year is over except we still have to ride out 15 more Sundays of being embarrassed.  

-I don't think Miami will go too far down this path with Grier/Flores, perhaps Flores will stay in place, Cleveland allowed one of theirs to start off 1-31 before he finally was shown the door in year 3. I cannot see where Miami will win a game this year, I also cannot see how they could win much at all in 2020, they could possibly challenge the Browns for ineptness over a 2-3 year span, this is not going to be a quick fix. 

-Miami has not been good at drafting in the last 10-20 years and that has as much to do with this mess as anything. Now you want a fan base to believe that the only thing keeping you from a Super Bowl is losing every game on your schedule for the next 3-5 years until you can load up with top 5 picks...that's the message you are sending to everyone. We can't hack it and you know maybe 6 Super Bowls on 8 trips over the last 2 decades to a division rival will do that to you, make you a little punch drunk. To buy in to whatever BS that Stephen Ross pitches, don't forget he tried to threaten the area with a move to get tax payers to make his stadium look like it does now and people balked quickly...he got Goodell to pitch in funds finally so the Super Bowl can stay in South Beach on the rotation list. 

-The focus is everywhere but the product on the field which has now been reduced down to going 0-16...again they screwed this plan up in 2012 after an 0-7 start, this time they mean business!!!

Edited by Ministry of Pain
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I think every player on this roster would be better served sitting out the entire year to stay healthy.  I applaud these guys for even showing up to work tomorrow. 

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6 hours ago, Max Power said:

I think every player on this roster would be better served sitting out the entire year to stay healthy.  I applaud these guys for even showing up to work tomorrow. 

The team stinks because the vast majority of the players stink.  Many of these guys should be thrilled to have jobs in the NFL, even if just for this year and maybe next.  Watching them on offense is like watching a blooper reel.  Cue up that Kalen Ballage bobble-6...Bad News Bears of the NFL.

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Would you trade the current roster straight up for the entire Alabama roster?

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6 minutes ago, ChuckLiddell said:

The team stinks because the vast majority of the players stink.  Many of these guys should be thrilled to have jobs in the NFL, even if just for this year and maybe next.  Watching them on offense is like watching a blooper reel.  Cue up that Kalen Ballage bobble-6...Bad News Bears of the NFL.

Ballage had already shown in the game earlier that he wanted nothing to do with the short dump off passes the QB wanted to throw to him...I've never seen a RB duck their head down and avoid catching a football. I fault the coaches for continuing to dial him up and try to throw him balls...I would think Drake is such a better weapon throwing the ball and Drake would liek a chance to put up some stats even in these losses. 

It's painful when your 1st Rd Draft pick from last year wants out. 

BTW: Salgeuro reports that 3 teams are trying to get Fitzpatrick and Dallas isn't one of them at this point so there's a bidding war and Miami is seeking more than a 1st Round pick at this point. Miami will be armed with THREE 1st Round picks in 2019 very shortly, like maybe as soon as today or tomorrow. I liked Fitzpatrick and wonder how they can keep Howard or Jones as the season rolls on. I'm surprised a trio of Howard/Fitz/Jones, actually Miami was fighting the good fight yesterday but they have ZERO offense and even if the defense can slow them down and not hand over 2 TDs or 3 Interceptions maybe the Phins wouldn't lose 43-0!!! 

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10 minutes ago, BassNBrew said:

Would you trade the current roster straight up for the entire Alabama roster?

There aren't 5 1st Rd Talents on this team and Alabama likely will send 3-4 high 1st rounders every year for the next 4-5 years into the draft so YES we would. 

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On 8/23/2019 at 1:22 PM, TripleThreat said:

I like Laird more than I like Ballage at this point.  Not as big or fast, but has better vision and wiggle.  from what I see...

feel this way more and more. 

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3 hours ago, ChuckLiddell said:

The team stinks because the vast majority of the players stink.  Many of these guys should be thrilled to have jobs in the NFL, even if just for this year and maybe next.  Watching them on offense is like watching a blooper reel.  Cue up that Kalen Ballage bobble-6...Bad News Bears of the NFL.

Pretty much my thought as well. Why not trade them away for whatever you can get because obviously they probably aren't worth it. Did the front office pack it in, yup, but does anyone really believe the results are any different with Tunsil and Stills ? Fitzpatrick isn't increasing his trade value by anchoring that defense.

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3 hours ago, Ministry of Pain said:

There aren't 5 1st Rd Talents on this team and Alabama likely will send 3-4 high 1st rounders every year for the next 4-5 years into the draft so YES we would. 

Jerry Jeudy better then any of our WR's

Tua Tagovailoa better then our QB's

Dylan Moses better then any of our LB's

Raekwon Davis would start on the DL

Xavier McKinney is basically Fitzpatrick

and their whole OL is probably better.

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3 hours ago, ChuckLiddell said:

The team stinks because the vast majority of the players stink.  Many of these guys should be thrilled to have jobs in the NFL, even if just for this year and maybe next.  Watching them on offense is like watching a blooper reel.  Cue up that Kalen Ballage bobble-6...Bad News Bears of the NFL.

 

7 minutes ago, SwampDawg said:

Pretty much my thought as well. Why not trade them away for whatever you can get because obviously they probably aren't worth it. Did the front office pack it in, yup, but does anyone really believe the results are any different with Tunsil and Stills ? Fitzpatrick isn't increasing his trade value by anchoring that defense.

From reading Armando Salguero it seems like Miami is very close to a deal, a reported three teams are in a bidding war and Miami is likely to get a 1st round pick from a playoff level team plus a player in return, that's the word on the streets. People feel this will happen this week, maybe early in the week so they can get him out of here before he gets hurt and they have nothing. 

Edited by Ministry of Pain

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Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter

TRADE: Steelers are trading a 2020 first-round pick to the Dolphins for DB Minkah Fitzpatrick, league sources tell ESPN.

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44 minutes ago, Penguin said:

Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter

TRADE: Steelers are trading a 2020 first-round pick to the Dolphins for DB Minkah Fitzpatrick, league sources tell ESPN.

If true...the Steelers could be going like 4-12, we're talking a potential top 5-10 pick to go with the 1.01 which Miami will have locked up by Week 8 after they lose to the Jets by not even taking the field. 

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1 hour ago, Penguin said:

Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter

TRADE: Steelers are trading a 2020 first-round pick to the Dolphins for DB Minkah Fitzpatrick, league sources tell ESPN.

:jawdrop: Why???  For Pitt that is.  Good trade for Miami.

Edited by Max Power
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20 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

If true...the Steelers could be going like 4-12, we're talking a potential top 5-10 pick to go with the 1.01 which Miami will have locked up by Week 8 after they lose to the Jets by not even taking the field. 

There's a possibility of getting a choice of Tua, Hurst or Herbert. And then trading down with a team that desires the other QBs, to load up even more draft picks. 

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1 hour ago, Ministry of Pain said:

If true...the Steelers could be going like 4-12, we're talking a potential top 5-10 pick to go with the 1.01 which Miami will have locked up by Week 8 after they lose to the Jets by not even taking the field. 

Hi MoP - your friendly neighborhood Bengals fans poppin' in for a minute.

1) Congratulations on the Steelers pick!  I hope it's as high as possible for you guys that would be an excellent result.

2) After watching the "tackling" on display by my Bengals we might just be a mortal threat to Operation FishTank come week 16.  Even though clearly my team is trying to win.

I just hope for your guys sake your front office isn't salting the ground while plowing all the crops under with this tank.  Though if it all pans out 2024 and 2025 (or whatever) when all of those 1st contracts come due for renewal at the same exact time would be quite interesting to watch in terms of how they handle that if they manage to hit on all these picks.

-QG

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Miami could have Number 1, Number 8-projected and if Houston isn't careful they could have another in the top 20, then the No 33 plus another 2nd I think...

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2 hours ago, SoBeDad said:

There's a possibility of getting a choice of Tua, Hurst or Herbert. And then trading down with a team that desires the other QBs, to load up even more draft picks. 

Pitt would need to be #2 or #3 for this to happen, and I don't think that will be the case.  Tua and Justin are gonna go 1&2. 

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Wrote this in Steelers thread:

I have been a big fan of the dolphins moves in the offseason, jettisoning salary to get a solid rebuild going. Thought it was odd they dealt Tunsil but not after seeing the return. But this trade just doesn’t make sense to me. Fitzpatrick is 22 and is a fantastic player. I understand they got a first for him but he is a young, very good player. The type of player you want to hold onto in a rebuild, not trade.

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1 hour ago, Balco said:

Wrote this in Steelers thread:

I have been a big fan of the dolphins moves in the offseason, jettisoning salary to get a solid rebuild going. Thought it was odd they dealt Tunsil but not after seeing the return. But this trade just doesn’t make sense to me. Fitzpatrick is 22 and is a fantastic player. I understand they got a first for him but he is a young, very good player. The type of player you want to hold onto in a rebuild, not trade.

They need more ammo in case they mess this up and win a game or 4.

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2 hours ago, TripleThreat said:

8 other 0-2 teams and Dolphins play Jets 2x Giants Skins and Bengals... 

they better not screw the tank. 

This is shaping up to be a race between the Jets and Dolphins. Right now, the Dolphins are in a surprisingly tight dogfight.

Tua or whoever in kelly green or black seems too good to be true. 

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1 hour ago, Balco said:

Wrote this in Steelers thread:

I have been a big fan of the dolphins moves in the offseason, jettisoning salary to get a solid rebuild going. Thought it was odd they dealt Tunsil but not after seeing the return. But this trade just doesn’t make sense to me. Fitzpatrick is 22 and is a fantastic player. I understand they got a first for him but he is a young, very good player. The type of player you want to hold onto in a rebuild, not trade.

I think it seems like any players who want out, get out.  I am assuming Flores only wants players in the locker room who buy into the long term vision, and does not want anyone who is a malcontent or unhappy to poison the air.  I dont know for a fact that I am right, but if this is the case, it does not seem like a bad policy - as long as the players continue to return value.  Tear it down and build it back - with a locker room full of his own guys.

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I actually think Trevor Lawrence in 2021 is the actual target at Qi for this team. They’ll trade number one next year for a kings ransom build the team at the lines and some skill positions and wait for Lawrence in 2021 

im probably wrong on this but who knows

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2 hours ago, Balco said:

Wrote this in Steelers thread:

I have been a big fan of the dolphins moves in the offseason, jettisoning salary to get a solid rebuild going. Thought it was odd they dealt Tunsil but not after seeing the return. But this trade just doesn’t make sense to me. Fitzpatrick is 22 and is a fantastic player. I understand they got a first for him but he is a young, very good player. The type of player you want to hold onto in a rebuild, not trade.

-I agree and it's the smoking gun IMO that Miami is bending the rules. When players are openly questioning the positions coaches are putting them in and also openly complaining that the game plans are not professional or strong enough to win football games, that tells you right away what you are looking at here. Miami should not be proud and fans should not be patting Stephen Ross on the back. This sounds like a game plan that was concocted over some overpriced champagne in the Liv Nightclub situated in the end zone of the Hard Rock. 

 

1 minute ago, finfansteve said:

I actually think Trevor Lawrence in 2021 is the actual target at Qi for this team. They’ll trade number one next year for a kings ransom build the team at the lines and some skill positions and wait for Lawrence in 2021 

im probably wrong on this but who knows

I thought for a minute...what if Tua decides to stay another year? Miami will have a hard time climbing back quickly from this...but they do have $113 Million with which to work so far in the off season, that's a lot of money. So I might as well throw it around like a game show host

OL-$30Million plus some draft picks I assume

DL/LB $45 Million plus some draft picks

DBs-The rest

Draft will fill up QB, WR, most of the skill position players.  

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