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Lowering the Federal Voting Age to 16 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Opie
- Start date
Apropos of nothing, since I wanted to gush, my 18 year old son, who I’ve referenced in the past as adopted from Colombia, just was able to identify/label and explain every amendment to the constitution. I was kind of amazed.
im ashamed to say I only knew the big ones.
We were playing Alexa Jeopardy and one question precipated this exercise.
im ashamed to say I only knew the big ones.
We were playing Alexa Jeopardy and one question precipated this exercise.
Sand
Footballguy
I'm sure your dad had some specific reason for that. I'm talking in general.
As far as women in the draft that's coming soon. The courts have found (finally, it's been obvious since women were allowed into combat roles) that, on 14th amendment grounds, women need to be treated equal to men and become eligible for the draft. Small article.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
but can't change the tire on a car, balance a check book, decline texting and driving .......... or handle a shotgun
the bolded is true however, age limits are set on things as a guideline to maturity .... think marriage license, voting, etc. Me? I think drivers licenses should change to 18 too, voting to 21 ........ if these people can't handle other things with maturity, responsibility etc? anyway, my opinion .......
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I get and it most of world agrees with you. I know I’m arguing the minority opinion here but it’s somethibh I’ve thought a lot abound being a high school teacher. Based on my experiences with adults and teens, I really don’t see that big of a difference in the skills required to be a voter. It’s a difference of opinion, that’s all.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Since when was the draft back in place? We have a military draft again? News to me.
Sand
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I assume he means registering for selective service. I honestly don’t think there is a logical argument against 16 and 17 year olds being allowed to vote. The crowd against is against based on their gut feel. That’s fine and that’s how the majority feel, but the age of 18 is arbitrary.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
The crowd against it feels that since 16 yr olds have been fed and clothed their whole life they will end up on welfare if they vote, but two years later they are all obviously self sufficient by then so it’s fine.
If they are old enough to work and pay taxes one could argue they are being taxed without representation, which is unconstitutional.
Moonlight
Footballguy
Many laws and commerce practices are not supportive in viewing minors capable of making responsible judgments and actions without parental consent or guidance.
Most states require a person to be 18 to drink. I think federal law requires a person to be 18 to smoke tobacco. About half the states require some form of parental notification/involvement in an abortion decision. A minor joining the military needs parental consent.
In business hotels will not rent rooms to minors without parents booking/paying for the room. Rental car companies will not rent cars to minors without parental consent.
The trend for many states has been to raise the school dropout age to 17 or 18 to keep minors in school. Over half the states now require that the minor stay in school till then.
Most states require a person to be 18 to drink. I think federal law requires a person to be 18 to smoke tobacco. About half the states require some form of parental notification/involvement in an abortion decision. A minor joining the military needs parental consent.
In business hotels will not rent rooms to minors without parents booking/paying for the room. Rental car companies will not rent cars to minors without parental consent.
The trend for many states has been to raise the school dropout age to 17 or 18 to keep minors in school. Over half the states now require that the minor stay in school till then.
skol asylum
Footballguy
My 14 year old 8th grade daughter just finished learning about all the amendments. She has a very robust social studies class and at this rate would be a very educated and we'll informed voter at 16.
I still say leave it at 18 though.
skol asylum
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
meh....there's a lot of grown adults that clearly aren't responsible enough to handle it to. 21 is a purely arbitrary line you've chosen to draw using that standard.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Any age is going to arbitrary, and we'll always be able to identify people on the younger side of the cut-off who are sharper than most and people on the older side of the cut-off who are duller than most. You're going to have to live with a little messiness no matter where we decide to draw this line as a society. Our job is to come up with an arbitrary line that generates the "right" balance of Type I and Type II errors, and different people of reason and good will can easily disagree on where that line ought to be drawn.
If you don't think there is a logical argument against moving the line to 16, ask yourself whether there is a logical argument against moving the cut-off to 14. Or 21. If you see the logic against either of those moves, then you should have no problem seeing the argument against moving it to 16. All you're doing is applying the exact same arguments to a slightly different population.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
There's nothing unconstitutional about taxation without representation. When I was 12, my detasseling earnings were taxed despite not being able to vote. Non-naturalized immigrants pay taxes and can't vote. Ex-felons pay taxes but can't vote in many states (this last one is controversial as a matter of policy and fairness, but it's explicitly allowed by the 13th amendment).
Edit: And that's just income taxes. Foreign tourists pay sales taxes, for example, and they have no voice in our government.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
I agree any age is arbitrary. My question is can we find an arbitrary age that is more inclusive of our citizens. I think we can.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
isn't that true with every age limit ?
people 25 aren't capable of having a marriage license or driving a car and we allow them ........... some people at 15 can do both and we don't
The Commish
Footballguy
That's my point. I'm not making a responsibility argument based on an age. You are.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
No taxation without representation.
Don't tax their minimum wage paychecks until they can vote.
Don't tax their minimum wage paychecks until they can vote.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
16 and 17 are of age to work so that hurts your argument. We don't require adults to have a job to vote.
I noticed that the ones who oppose voting at 16 are 90% Republican. I'm trying to figure out why that is.
The 13th Amendment allows involuntary servitude for felons, but doesn't say anything about voting. (The 15th Amendment says stuff about voting, but not about being a felon.)
I was pretty good at calculus and sports when I was 16, but I would have been a terrible voter. I pretty much just copied and repeated whatever my parents believed. I suspect that's the case with most 16-year-olds.
I think 18 is about the right year to allow voting.
I do think felons should be able to vote. I also think Washing D.C. should have two Senators and a House Representative. I think Puerto Rico should also have two Senators and however many Representatives and Electoral College votes its population warrants.
But 16-year-olds, in my subjective judgment, have less life experience than voters should have. I'm not locked into that position, but that's my initial instinct.
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fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Why do you think it’s so terrible for a 16 year old voter to just copy his parents?
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I 100% agree with bolded.
As for 16 year old voters parroting their parents. I am sure many would. Many 18-year-olds parrot their parents as well. Many voters of other ages parrot what MSNBC or FOX or Breitbart or some Twitter group says. I don't think parroting or concern for a lack of unique thought is any kind of rule out. A seventeen year old who can understand physics or perform calc problems has the skills to be a good voter. They may not exercise those skills but they have them.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
This exchange got me thinking. What is the correlation of political views between parents to 16-year-olds today and how do we think that's trended over the decades? We all have anecdotes but I wonder what really happens.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
It is interesting. Many young people do parrot their parents but I also think a lot of young people try very hard to not be like their parents.
The Commish
Footballguy
This isn't unique to a particular age.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I don't think I want to effectively give people more votes just because they're parents. An argument could be made that a family of five (with three children) should get five times as many votes as a single adult, but I don't think I'm on board with that argument. I haven't given it a ton of thought...
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I don't believe that very many 16 year olds are "tax payers". I am pretty sure that they are "tax deductions"
Every 16 year old that I know has mom or dad fill out their W-4 and just about all of them list "Tax Exempt" or "Student"as their withholding.
If it's not done on their W-4, the parents sure take care of it on any tax return that they may fill out prior to April 15th.
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The Commish
Footballguy
I'm still kinda waiting for a reason tied to age. Everything so far can be applied to most age groups. Which i find kind of comical.
Sand
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
What's the reason for being tied to 16 as the age at which people can drive? What's the reason for being tied to 16 (or 17 or 18 or whatever depending on the state) as the age of consent? What's the reason for being tied 21 as the age where drinking is okay? What's the reason for being tied to 18 as the age at which you can enter into binding contracts?
The Commish
Footballguy
I suspect for driving it's a factor of physical ability. They need to be tall enough to see over the steering wheel, reach the pedals, have the motor skills necessary etc. Age of consent seems to have always been based on biological/physiological/psychological reasons based in science. Oddly enough the two examples closest to voting are the last two and all I can offer is a big
on those. They seem just as arbitrary.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
They're definitely arbitrary, and there's nothing wrong with that.I suspect for driving it's a factor of physical ability. They need to be tall enough to see over the steering wheel, reach the pedals, have the motor skills necessary etc. Age of consent seems to have always been based on biological/physiological/psychological reasons based in science. Oddly enough the two examples closest to voting are the last two and all I can offer is a big
The Commish
Footballguy
Sorry, I guess I don't understand the your point as it pertains to my question above. The arguments thus far in this thread for not lowering the voting age are arguments that can easily be made for other ages. So I was asking why age was used if that's true. And then I come to this. I have no idea what point it is you guys are trying to make. There may even be different points. I'm not sure.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
I don't know that it does. I'm trying to understand them myself. To me, it doesn't matter if you're an immature 16 year old or an immature 30 year old, or a 25 year old living at home echoing mom and dad's talking points or a 10 year old doing the same.
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
If you can’t win on issues, then of course you want to change the rules of the game.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Do you think that the population of 10 year-olds is meaningfully different from the population of 30 year-olds when it comes to maturity?
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