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Privacy - this is getting ridiculous (1 Viewer)

AAABatteries said:
@Sand - I'll ask again, how is it actually impacting your life?  I don't disagree with your assessment and that you may not want it and should be able to "turn off" things but how does it impact your day to day?

I had this conversation with my FIL - he's like you but even more concerned.  My thought on it is with current technology people could make it look like you say or do just about anything so it kind of doesn't matter - if you get what I'm saying.  Just live your life and ignore it is my best advice.
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First issue is there are human beings who have access to data and may use unscrupulously things you never wanted collected or known. A couple of actual examples:

  1. Employee at Uber used company capabilities to track the movements of a journalist who was scheduled to meet with them.
  2. Police in Chicago and Minnesota have been caught looking up information on girlfriends and other women from law enforcement and state registration systems.


Next issue is you're trusting to corporations and individuals to choose to use the data in ethical ways.  There are as many ways to misuse such data as our imaginations allow. More real examples:

  1. Jan 2019: Privacy activists and browser-makers release Google data sold to advertisers that is so specific it could be used by advertisers to specifically target incest and abuse victims, or those with eating disorders.
  2. 2012: Netflix fined $9m for publicizing movie watching records of customers including a Supreme Court nominee.
  3. 2018 NY Times article on how smart devices around homes were being used as tools for spying and harassment by those committing domestic abuse.


It's not too hard to envision other ways that knowledge of your search history and habits could be used to disadvantage someone.  Off the top of my head:

  1. Search data could be used to price-fix, offering different prices to different people based on what their search history indicates on their demand for the given item, history with how much price comparison they do, etc.
  2. Medical search history could be used to deny someone insurance or up their premiums. 

 
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@GregR - I agree with you but we are getting to a point with technology where someone can do a lot of the things people worry about whether it’s real or not. 

 
The data these companies get are most analogous to my vote in the presidential election.  Mine alone doesn't help anyone, but the combined impact of mine and everyone else's decides who wins.

 
GregR said:
First issue is there are human beings who have access to data and may use unscrupulously things you never wanted collected or known. A couple of actual examples:

  1. Employee at Uber used company capabilities to track the movements of a journalist who was scheduled to meet with them.
  2. Police in Chicago and Minnesota have been caught looking up information on girlfriends and other women from law enforcement and state registration systems.


Next issue is you're trusting to corporations and individuals to choose to use the data in ethical ways.  There are as many ways to misuse such data as our imaginations allow. More real examples:

  1. Jan 2019: Privacy activists and browser-makers release Google data sold to advertisers that is so specific it could be used by advertisers to specifically target incest and abuse victims, or those with eating disorders.
  2. 2012: Netflix fined $9m for publicizing movie watching records of customers including a Supreme Court nominee.
  3. 2018 NY Times article on how smart devices around homes were being used as tools for spying and harassment by those committing domestic abuse.


It's not too hard to envision other ways that knowledge of your search history and habits could be used to disadvantage someone.  Off the top of my head:

  1. Search data could be used to price-fix, offering different prices to different people based on what their search history indicates on their demand for the given item, history with how much price comparison they do, etc.
  2. Medical search history could be used to deny someone insurance or up their premiums. 
Click to expand...
Highlighted a lot of "could be used" and may be used" in this post that aren't real examples.  I'd also ask a follow up question of how likely is it that your alexa or smart fridge is doing scrupulous things like this?  And how likely is it that you out of the millions in their databases are the one being targeted?  Mainly directed towards the people who shun all of these types of technologies out of the fear of this stuff happening to them.  Seems like an extreme stand to take on something that has a remote chance of happening.  Do these people also not cross streets? Because their chances of getting hit by a car are much higher?  

 
Never really had any reason to worry about my privacy, and think that would be true with all my family which is huge, we'd hear about it.

 
I saw another article on the Amazon staff listening to Alexa interactions ...very weird and creepy.   Glad I don't have one of those!

 
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here's what i dont get and/or hate about connectivity. in brick&mortar commerce it always was that, if a product/service became poorly offered or artificially overpriced, another entity would swoop in to compete on quality, price or both. is that not why the hilariously misnamed "free market" was important to anyone in the first place? ever since cable TV & mergerism, though, the customer has slowly lost his standing as the most important part of transactions. 

one would have thought that the internet would be the solution to all that, but everything i see shows me that it's the opposite. when people first started objecting to easily-available adult content, nobody swept in to offer an alternate, "safe" web. with privacy such a concern, why isn't the business of offering alternatives being pursued. i know y'all young people are terrible customers by the ridiculous cost of any entertainment and how easily your government has been taken from you, but are y'all ever gonna stand up to anything?!

 
Scoresman said:
Highlighted a lot of "could be used" and may be used" in this post that aren't real examples.  I'd also ask a follow up question of how likely is it that your alexa or smart fridge is doing scrupulous things like this?  And how likely is it that you out of the millions in their databases are the one being targeted?  Mainly directed towards the people who shun all of these types of technologies out of the fear of this stuff happening to them.  Seems like an extreme stand to take on something that has a remote chance of happening.  Do these people also not cross streets? Because their chances of getting hit by a car are much higher?  
Click to expand...
Rather than focus on extreme stands, why don't we instead focus on supporting some measured and reasonable stands?

For example, we could support that individuals should have a right to:

Know what information about them is being tracked.
Know what the retention is on it.
Be able to view it for himself.
Know who else it was shared with.
Be notified when a data breach occurs.
Require deletion of the data under certain conditions (fraudulent or unethical use of the data, etc).

 
wikkidpissah said:
here's what i dont get and/or hate about connectivity. in brick&mortar commerce it always was that, if a product/service became poorly offered or artificially overpriced, another entity would swoop in to compete on quality, price or both. is that not why the hilariously misnamed "free market" was important to anyone in the first place? ever since cable TV & mergerism, though, the customer has slowly lost his standing as the most important part of transactions. 

one would have thought that the internet would be the solution to all that, but everything i see shows me that it's the opposite. when people first started objecting to easily-available adult content, nobody swept in to offer an alternate, "safe" web. with privacy such a concern, why isn't the business of offering alternatives being pursued. i know y'all young people are terrible customers by the ridiculous cost of any entertainment and how easily your government has been taken from you, but are y'all ever gonna stand up to anything?!
Click to expand...


Interesting bit on trusting the market to regulate price.

Studies have found that even when companies implement analytics methods to set their prices independently of each other, the methods effectively learn to collude with each other to maximize their prices.  https://boingboing.net/2019/02/14/skynet-price-gouging.html

even relatively simple pricing algorithms systematically learn to play sophisticated collusive strategies," through iterated turns in which each tries to meet the others' prices without losing money, and that it's seemingly impossible to design pricing algorithms that don't evolve collusive strategies
Click to expand...


From another study, same article:

What is most worrying is that the algorithms leave no trace of concerted action – they learn to collude purely by trial and error, with no prior knowledge of the environment in which they operate, without communicating with one another, and without being specifically designed or instructed to collude. This poses a real challenge for competition policy.
Click to expand...

 
GregR said:
Interesting bit on trusting the market to regulate price.

Studies have found that even when companies implement analytics methods to set their prices independently of each other, the methods effectively learn to collude with each other to maximize their prices.  https://boingboing.net/2019/02/14/skynet-price-gouging.html

From another study, same article:
Click to expand...
i dont even understand this and i understand this. but the only way that this is possible is that the consumer puts up with it.

i never have any success with this, but i'll try it again.

1989, baseballer Rickey Henderson signs a 4 yr/$12mil deal. now, i had grown up on the same subway line as Fenway Park and, from age 10 or so, me Ma would give me 80 cents and a bag of cucumber sammiches and let me go to games by myself. 15 cents each way on the El, 50 cent bleacher seats. continuing the Norman Rockwell picture, i would watch BP, come back out and hand out the bags for a peanut vendor ("peanuts a dime, three fo a quata") who had been a train porter for Babe Ruth and Rogers Hornsby etc backinaday, in exchange for a free bag.

so, baseball was important to me - its traditions and, especially, the kidness of it. when Henderson signed that contract i knew that sports was getting away from us. in those days there was a sports strike every coupla years, owners kept saying TV would pay for the salaries but kept raising prices. i started calling national sports talkshows and railing on&on how there should be a National Fan's Union (and start striking games and boycotting broadcasts) to protect the prices and issues of the people who paid the tab. deaf ears, what can i tellya?.

15 years later i was back east for my 50th b'day and a friend got us tickets to Fenway for the infamous Yankees/Sox playoff series that led to the ending of The Curse and the same bleacher seats that cost me 50 cents apiece as a kid cost him $450 for the pair. 15 years later again, they've probably quadrupled from that.

great as America is, from the start it has run over the little guy unless the little guy said no. saying no was sumn i always felt allowed, even encouraged to do, even in a new-middle-class family of conformists. the 2nd half of the 1960s were as much about "no" as the first half was about "yes". my gen was built on that and it breaks me heart to see that most of my country no longer knows how or even why to start. nufced

 
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GregR said:
For example, we could support that individuals should have a right to:

Know what information about them is being tracked.
Know what the retention is on it.
Be able to view it for himself.
Know who else it was shared with.
Be notified when a data breach occurs.
Require deletion of the data under certain conditions (fraudulent or unethical use of the data, etc).
Click to expand...
:goodposting:

 
GregR said:
Rather than focus on extreme stands, why don't we instead focus on supporting some measured and reasonable stands?

For example, we could support that individuals should have a right to:

Know what information about them is being tracked.
Know what the retention is on it.
Be able to view it for himself.
Know who else it was shared with.
Be notified when a data breach occurs.
Require deletion of the data under certain conditions (fraudulent or unethical use of the data, etc).
Click to expand...
Of course.  That's all reasonable.  I just don't understand the position of shunning smart technology/social media altogether on the remote chance of that specific individual's data being used against them.  

 
GregR said:
Rather than focus on extreme stands, why don't we instead focus on supporting some measured and reasonable stands?

For example, we could support that individuals should have a right to:

Know what information about them is being tracked.
Know what the retention is on it.
Be able to view it for himself.
Know who else it was shared with.
Be notified when a data breach occurs.
Require deletion of the data under certain conditions (fraudulent or unethical use of the data, etc).
Click to expand...
Don't we already know most of this? Every time you install an app it more or less lists out precisely what permissions you are giving that app for instance.

You may not like the retention, but what do you assume the retention is right now? I assume we are agreeing to give them the data for as long as they want the data.

I don't think you'll ever get companies to share with you who they are selling the data to. While that sounds like something you want can you imagine what your email box would look like if every time your data is bought by a third party you got an email. And most of those places would be names you wouldn't even recognize. It wouldn't be as obvious as "ACME Insurance" for instance, it could be a company(more likely several different companies) that would purchase the data and sell it to ACME insurance. You may THINK you want that flood to hit your phone/inbox everyday but I honestly don't think you would want that in practice.

In general I think we are notified when data breaches occur, but not always in a timely manner. Would it really change the way you did anything? After the Experian data breach really your only recourse was to freeze your credit until you actually wanted to use it and then un-freeze it, and then re-freeze it over and over again. If you are doing that I don't what more you can do no matter what data breaches happen. 

Maybe I'm a cynic but when anyone assures me that yes, the data you are talking about has completely been stricken from the internet and I have 100% confidence in that..... well, I just roll my eyes. Even if they are European.

I'm not saying that these are bad ideas. Just unenforceable. And most of it wouldn't make as much difference in a real world sense. If you think you have to use a smartphone you are not going to have privacy in a real sense. For that matter if you want to use the internet it's going to take a lot of steps to have any privacy. You may think this is an extreme position but it's really not. It's just a practical one. It's simply the truth. People selling "privacy" on the internet are modern day snake oil salesman.

 
BoltBacker said:
Don't we already know most of this? Every time you install an app it more or less lists out precisely what permissions you are giving that app for instance.

You may not like the retention, but what do you assume the retention is right now? I assume we are agreeing to give them the data for as long as they want the data.

I don't think you'll ever get companies to share with you who they are selling the data to. While that sounds like something you want can you imagine what your email box would look like if every time your data is bought by a third party you got an email. And most of those places would be names you wouldn't even recognize. It wouldn't be as obvious as "ACME Insurance" for instance, it could be a company(more likely several different companies) that would purchase the data and sell it to ACME insurance. You may THINK you want that flood to hit your phone/inbox everyday but I honestly don't think you would want that in practice.

In general I think we are notified when data breaches occur, but not always in a timely manner. Would it really change the way you did anything? After the Experian data breach really your only recourse was to freeze your credit until you actually wanted to use it and then un-freeze it, and then re-freeze it over and over again. If you are doing that I don't what more you can do no matter what data breaches happen. 

Maybe I'm a cynic but when anyone assures me that yes, the data you are talking about has completely been stricken from the internet and I have 100% confidence in that..... well, I just roll my eyes. Even if they are European.

I'm not saying that these are bad ideas. Just unenforceable. And most of it wouldn't make as much difference in a real world sense. If you think you have to use a smartphone you are not going to have privacy in a real sense. For that matter if you want to use the internet it's going to take a lot of steps to have any privacy. You may think this is an extreme position but it's really not. It's just a practical one. It's simply the truth. People selling "privacy" on the internet are modern day snake oil salesman.
Click to expand...
No, I don't think we know or get most of those.  There are surely some legal obligations already ('"this phone call is being recorded") but I don't think we have a particularly strong set of protections and what we have may be side-effect rather than designed to fit this arena.

"I don't think you'll ever get companies to share with you who they are selling the data to." - If it's made law that they have to provide this information upon request, they will. Or else.  Companies in the EU have to live to this standard, why can't American companies?

I think a number of things around this can make a real world difference. If companies are required by law to take steps on data protection, we benefit. If they are required by law to have to provide copies to us of what they track and who they gave it to, then watchdog groups who are willing to put the time into monitoring such things have the tools they need to help us out, even if each individual rarely takes the time to go do it for ourselves. 

The fact that businesses had to adapt to comply with the EU laws pretty much tells me that, no they didn't have most of that. And I am sure we don't get that level of thought or concern from our companies either.

 
Scoresman said:
I don’t understand the uproar over targeted ads either. I mean, I’m going to be seeing ads anyway on various billboards, TV, webpages. They may as well be for stuff I might be interested in. 

And cottage cheese is gross. I hope my fridge knows that about my eating preferences. 
Click to expand...
agree on the cottage cheese.  So is tuna fish out of a can.

 
Sand said:
I fully reject this concept.  If I use Uber, I'm consciously requesting a GPS ping and service based on that.  That doesn't mean I should want or have to tolerate Google passively tracking my phone with its GPS everywhere I go.  

I don't want or need contextual information based on where I am at any given time.  I want to turn that feature off. 
Click to expand...
Then get a phone with no gps. :shrug:

 
jonessed said:
Europe has been much more proactive on this front.  I’m surprised we have let technology companies off the hook with regards to protecting privacy.
Click to expand...
It is probably as simple as the fact these companies have their HQ here

 
jonessed said:
Europe has been much more proactive on this front.  I’m surprised we have let technology companies off the hook with regards to protecting privacy.
Click to expand...
It is probably as simple as the fact these companies have their HQ here

 
I'm actually shocked how many of you brush this off as a non-issue.  We should all be angry about this.  This data collection is used against ALL of us in many ways.  We are controlled how to think, act, behave, judge, react to news/events. Wake up, folks.  The realization that so many of you are living in la la land is super depressing.

 
I'm just trying to enjoy how it is now before machine learning and predictive gets to the point where they read my thoughts before I even think them.

Philip K. ****'s precogs are really not so far-fetched in this light. 

 
irishidiot said:
agree on the cottage cheese.  So is tuna fish out of a can.
Click to expand...
Can you both please talk to my wife, who has eaten cottage cheese mixed with tuna as a snack in her lifetime...and enjoyed it.

This, way more than loss of privacy, is the true horror in my life.

 
I've been disappointed in big brother's cyber stalking of me lately.  You clearly see how often I resort to fast food and youtube is going to give me how to eat vegan ads.  Fix yo ####.

 
[scooter] said:
(P.S. just kidding, that's never going to happen.)
Click to expand...
Because of shareholder value. By omitting such revenue streams the directors are not maximizing shareholder value and should thus be removed from their positions.

Unless we figure out a new way to maximize shared value, beteeen the individual, companies and society.

 
[scooter] said:
We don't need government intervention. The free market will take care of it. Some smart entrepreneurs will come along and create companies that are just like Amazon/Google/Facebook/etc. except that they don't invade your privacy, and consumers will quickly switch over to the new companies. And in a few years, Facebook and Google will be about as memorable as Myspace and Altavista.
Click to expand...
Maybe we need a company with a product that would overwrite all that data with random noise?

 
mr. furley said:
i can't wait until the tv that's built in to my fridge is used to play ads every time i open the door, like the gas pump does when i unhook the nozzle to start filling my tank.

hopefully that's after my kids get tired of opening and shutting the fridge 1000 times per night.
Click to expand...
They'll put motion sensors and face recognition in so they can play ads before you open the door that is targeted to the individual(s) in the room

 
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GregR said:
Rather than focus on extreme stands, why don't we instead focus on supporting some measured and reasonable stands?

For example, we could support that individuals should have a right to:

Know what information about them is being tracked.
Know what the retention is on it.
Be able to view it for himself.
Know who else it was shared with.
Be notified when a data breach occurs.
Require deletion of the data under certain conditions (fraudulent or unethical use of the data, etc).
Click to expand...
I believe these are the rights EU citizens now have (since May 25, 2018). Except we can ask for the deletion under any pretext, I believe.

 
GregR said:
Companies in the EU have to live to this standard, why can't American companies?
Click to expand...
The GDPR rules are a bit of a pain, particularly for small companies, but if you have smart processes (and small companies generally need those) you can do it

 
Rhythmdoctor said:
I'm actually shocked how many of you brush this off as a non-issue.  We should all be angry about this.  This data collection is used against ALL of us in many ways.  We are controlled how to think, act, behave, judge, react to news/events. Wake up, folks.  The realization that so many of you are living in la la land is super depressing.
Click to expand...
Can you elaborate on this?  I’m willing to believe you but need more details about how this actually works.

 
AAABatteries said:
Rhythmdoctor said:
I'm actually shocked how many of you brush this off as a non-issue.  We should all be angry about this.  This data collection is used against ALL of us in many ways.  We are controlled how to think, act, behave, judge, react to news/events. Wake up, folks.  The realization that so many of you are living in la la land is super depressing.
Click to expand...
Can you elaborate on this?  I’m willing to believe you but need more details about how this actually works.
Click to expand...
I second this. If you specifically could elaborate on the malignant ways data collected is used against us normal folk, that would be appreciated

 
Rhythmdoctor said:
I'm actually shocked how many of you brush this off as a non-issue.  We should all be angry about this.  This data collection is used against ALL of us in many ways.  We are controlled how to think, act, behave, judge, react to news/events. Wake up, folks.  The realization that so many of you are living in la la land is super depressing.
Click to expand...
Controlled?  Sorry man, going to call :bs:  

I could see what you mean if you said conditioned, maybe.

 
msommer said:
I second this. If you specifically could elaborate on the malignant ways data collected is used against us normal folk, that would be appreciated
Click to expand...
No offense but if you’re too blind to see the obvious then some dude on the internet isn’t going to convince you otherwise. I’d suggest you stop watching the tv and stop reading mainstream newspapers/magazines. Observe the world without influence and bias from those sources. Report back in a year or so. Good luck! 

 
Rhythmdoctor said:
I'm actually shocked how many of you brush this off as a non-issue.  We should all be angry about this.  This data collection is used against ALL of us in many ways.  We are controlled how to think, act, behave, judge, react to news/events. Wake up, folks.  The realization that so many of you are living in la la land is super depressing.
Click to expand...
For me, I just feel like there are so many other things in life to worry about than a remote chance my data will be used against me in some meaningfully harmful way. 

Andif you want to say we are being controlled or told how to think, etc then that’s been since the invention of the television or heck, the invention of the newspaper editorial or political ads. 

If seeing an ad for something I actually might be interested vs a random ad for acne cream or something is considered being controlled, than yeah, I am going to continue to keep this issue very low on my worry list. The weathers great in la la land. 

 
Rhythmdoctor said:
No offense but if you’re too blind to see the obvious then some dude on the internet isn’t going to convince you otherwise. I’d suggest you stop watching the tv and stop reading mainstream newspapers/magazines. Observe the world without influence and bias from those sources. Report back in a year or so. Good luck! 
Click to expand...
No I’m not going to stop watching tv or reading, etc.  If you want to live a miserable, paranoid life go ahead, the rest of us will be here enjoying ourselves. 

 
Rhythmdoctor said:
No offense but if you’re too blind to see the obvious then some dude on the internet isn’t going to convince you otherwise. I’d suggest you stop watching the tv and stop reading mainstream newspapers/magazines. Observe the world without influence and bias from those sources. Report back in a year or so. Good luck! 
Click to expand...
Show your work, buddy, or get the  :tinfoilhat:

 
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Rhythmdoctor said:
No offense but if you’re too blind to see the obvious then some dude on the internet isn’t going to convince you otherwise. I’d suggest you stop watching the tv and stop reading mainstream newspapers/magazines. Observe the world without influence and bias from those sources. Report back in a year or so. Good luck! 
Click to expand...
Well, what sources SHOULD we get our influence and bias from?

 
https://fox11online.com/news/nation-world/thousands-of-amazon-employees-are-listening-to-you-through-alexa

SALT LAKE CITY — (KUTV) -- Many people are hesitant to purchase smart speakers like Amazon's Alexa and Echo, concerned that people may listen to them in their homes.

Turns out, someone is listening, and if you use Alexa or Echo, it's one of thousands of Amazon employees, according to a report in Bloomberg.

When workers hear something disturbing, they share it in an internal Amazon chat room.

but just the disturbing things.. nothing else. they aren't sharing any private information about the people they're listening to. they're only talking about possible crimes in progress. your freaky sex habits and personal financial information are perfectly secure. trust us.

 
The nets cast by law enforcement using new surveillance techniques are... not always effective in getting the right person.

This poor guy spent a week in jail thanks to a constitutionally untested type of search warrant to Google.

 
mr. furley said:
but just the disturbing things.. nothing else. they aren't sharing any private information about the people they're listening to. they're only talking about possible crimes in progress. your freaky sex habits and personal financial information are perfectly secure. trust us.
Click to expand...
Maybe just me, but I hate talking to machines.  Hate it.  So much more efficient to hit a button or type in something.

 
Rhythmdoctor said:
No offense but if you’re too blind to see the obvious then some dude on the internet isn’t going to convince you otherwise. I’d suggest you stop watching the tv and stop reading mainstream newspapers/magazines. Observe the world without influence and bias from those sources. Report back in a year or so. Good luck! 
Click to expand...
To be clear...the internet is brainwashing all of us but a guy on the internet isn't going to convince us one way or the other?  How does this work exactly?  You've left yourself with no real gray areas in your comments of absolution.  

 
Sand said:
Maybe just me, but I hate talking to machines.  Hate it.  So much more efficient to hit a button or type in something.
Click to expand...
This is why Alexa is holding a grudge against me. I've been cheating behind her back with Google.

 
Rhythmdoctor said:
No offense but if you’re too blind to see the obvious then some dude on the internet isn’t going to convince you otherwise. I’d suggest you stop watching the tv and stop reading mainstream newspapers/magazines. Observe the world without influence and bias from those sources. Report back in a year or so. Good luck! 
Click to expand...
:mellow:  

 
Sand said:
Maybe just me, but I hate talking to machines.  Hate it.  So much more efficient to hit a button or type in something.
Click to expand...
I wake up and walk in the bathroom.  I say “Alexa, what’s the news?”  While I wash my face, brush my teeth and take a piss I get the news (or sports scores) and weather.  I can take a dump or shave while listening to a podcast or traffic or music.  Never taking out my phone, tablet or laptop.  I love it - simple, convenient and I don’t give a rats ### if somebody is listening to me.

 
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