2005 FBG/NFL Mock Draft Rounds 2 and 3 (1 Viewer)

[saintfool]

I didn't draft him. I like Aaron Brooks, but am just saying the value there with Smith would have been hard to ignore.

There's a huge thread around here somewhere where nearly every Saints fan rips on Aaron Brooks (and on ImpSaintsFan). So, it looks like you may be in the minority amongst your own team's fans.

I agree that the defense has been much more to blame for the Saints failures in recent years. But, if there wasn't an obvious pick at defense that is going to help immediately, grabbing the BPA isn't a bad idea and helps maximize value.

I've found very often those who are anti-Brooks are also anti-Haslet. Historically, these are also the folks that were also anti-Ricky but that's water under the bridge... I see a QB like Smith in at #16 as a value, certainly. But when the needs of the team are so glaringly apparent on the other side, it's not a value pick. It becomes a wasted pick. Escecially when you consider the inadequacies of our defense. Make the defense better and Brooks doesn't have to "lead" so much. The burden of the team's success doesn't fall so squarely on his shoulders, as so many people think it does. It becomes Deuce's team instead maybe. Perhaps Charles Grant becomes the heart and soul of the team.

What frustrated me all season long was the play-calling, more than Brooks mental lapses for another year. A new OC, to my mind, is going to likely be a more accurate measure of Brooks abilities. We know what the offense can do when it's got Brooks and the others clicking. It's awfully good, thrilling even. We've not had a defense worth a damn in a loooong time. This what needs to be addressed.

 

[aaronr28]

FA is another avenue available to the Saints to address their defensive needs.If the Saints front office thinks Alex Smith is far and away the best player available on their draft board, chances are he's the choice.The organization seems to have a history of picking the best player available, and ignoring needs. Just last year, they spent a 1st round pick on a DE when they had a glaring need at CB and 2 franchise DEs already on the roster.

 

[Football Jones]

I'll have my pick shortly. As far as the Alex Smith pick at 16, faced with that same scenario in the NFL draft, I'm confident New Orleans would be all over Smith. Basically, he was too good to pass up at that point. Plus, Brooks hasn't come close to showing he's a championship caliber QB. I believe Smith has that capability.

 

[saintfool]

FA is another avenue available to the Saints to address their defensive needs.If the Saints front office thinks Alex Smith is far and away the best player available on their draft board, chances are he's the choice.The organization seems to have a history of picking the best player available, and ignoring needs. Just last year, they spent a 1st round pick on a DE when they had a glaring need at CB and 2 franchise DEs already on the roster.

This is the type claptrap that gets tossed around. Will Smith is a smart draft for a couple of reasons.Case in point: Darren Howard, your franchise DE, is in the last year of his contract when Smith was drafted. Now, going into the offseason, they can slap the franchise tag on him again or they can roll with Smith who has proven to be effective. With that said, I doubt the front office will keep Howard because it's too expensive but, as we have a proven commodity in Will Smith, it's no big deal. That, kids, is smart.What frustrates me to no end is the perception that Brooks is the problem. We have inept coaches and a pitiful defense but you want to ditch Brooks who signed a 6 year $36 million contract in 2002. If think Brooks or a simple change at QB is going to make the difference between us getting into and progressing though the playoffs then you clearly don't know the Saints or watch the games. In the game versus Atlanta, it wasn't Brooks that allowed Vick to scramble and hit Crumpler with 1:50 left in the game. Brooks rallied with some great play to tie us up. The defense gave up the go ahead TD. It's not solely Brooks that can be blamed for the offensive woes and losses but people want to. By the same logic, if a great WR plopped in at #16 you'd draft him because you're simply down on Stallworth. I'll repeat this for the last time: WE HAVE BIGGER PROBLEMS THAN SIMPLY BROOKS. I'm done. I'll let you resume but, dude, that's an great pick but an awful decision. You know, the Knicks and Mets could use a guy like you in the front office...

 

[Football Jones]

3.18 (82): Darrent Williams, CB, Oklahoma State

New Orleans needs someone to overtake the ancient Ashley Ambrose. With Mike McKenzie on one side & Williams on the other, the Saints have a nice CB combo for the future. With the DL's ability to put pressure on the passer & good coverage from their CBs, they could have a much-improved D next season.

Williams made a lot of money at the Senior Bowl, showing tight coverage. He has great speed/quickness & is an excellent athlete. Outstanding instincts & ball skills, as well. Also a good punt returner.

edited for grammar/spelling

 

[aaronr28]

FA is another avenue available to the Saints to address their defensive needs.If the Saints front office thinks Alex Smith is far and away the best player available on their draft board, chances are he's the choice.The organization seems to have a history of picking the best player available, and ignoring needs. Just last year, they spent a 1st round pick on a DE when they had a glaring need at CB and 2 franchise DEs already on the roster.

This is the type claptrap that gets tossed around. Will Smith is a smart draft for a couple of reasons.Case in point: Darren Howard, your franchise DE, is in the last year of his contract when Smith was drafted. Now, going into the offseason, they can slap the franchise tag on him again or they can roll with Smith who has proven to be effective. With that said, I doubt the front office will keep Howard because it's too expensive but, as we have a proven commodity in Will Smith, it's no big deal. That, kids, is smart.What frustrates me to no end is the perception that Brooks is the problem. We have inept coaches and a pitiful defense but you want to ditch Brooks who signed a 6 year $36 million contract in 2002. If think Brooks or a simple change at QB is going to make the difference between us getting into and progressing though the playoffs then you clearly don't know the Saints or watch the games. In the game versus Atlanta, it wasn't Brooks that allowed Vick to scramble and hit Crumpler with 1:50 left in the game. Brooks rallied with some great play to tie us up. The defense gave up the go ahead TD. It's not solely Brooks that can be blamed for the offensive woes and losses but people want to. By the same logic, if a great WR plopped in at #16 you'd draft him because you're simply down on Stallworth. I'll repeat this for the last time: WE HAVE BIGGER PROBLEMS THAN SIMPLY BROOKS. I'm done. I'll let you resume but, dude, that's an great pick but an awful decision. You know, the Knicks and Mets could use a guy like you in the front office...

since we're capitalizing things for emphasis now: WHY DO YOU KEEP TALKING TO ME AS IF I AM THE ONE WHO MADE THIS PICK FOR THE SAINTS? I really don't care what the Saints do.For the record, I'm an Aaron Brooks supporter (which I've already indicated to you in this thread) and a HUGE Will Smith fan (wanted the Bills to draft him).Also, since this is so much fun: I AGREE THAT THE SAINTS DEFENSE SUCKS.Dude, get a grip.

 

[Bobcat10]

FA is another avenue available to the Saints to address their defensive needs.If the Saints front office thinks Alex Smith is far and away the best player available on their draft board, chances are he's the choice.The organization seems to have a history of picking the best player available, and ignoring needs. Just last year, they spent a 1st round pick on a DE when they had a glaring need at CB and 2 franchise DEs already on the roster.

This is the type claptrap that gets tossed around. Will Smith is a smart draft for a couple of reasons.Case in point: Darren Howard, your franchise DE, is in the last year of his contract when Smith was drafted. Now, going into the offseason, they can slap the franchise tag on him again or they can roll with Smith who has proven to be effective. With that said, I doubt the front office will keep Howard because it's too expensive but, as we have a proven commodity in Will Smith, it's no big deal. That, kids, is smart.What frustrates me to no end is the perception that Brooks is the problem. We have inept coaches and a pitiful defense but you want to ditch Brooks who signed a 6 year $36 million contract in 2002. If think Brooks or a simple change at QB is going to make the difference between us getting into and progressing though the playoffs then you clearly don't know the Saints or watch the games. In the game versus Atlanta, it wasn't Brooks that allowed Vick to scramble and hit Crumpler with 1:50 left in the game. Brooks rallied with some great play to tie us up. The defense gave up the go ahead TD. It's not solely Brooks that can be blamed for the offensive woes and losses but people want to. By the same logic, if a great WR plopped in at #16 you'd draft him because you're simply down on Stallworth. I'll repeat this for the last time: WE HAVE BIGGER PROBLEMS THAN SIMPLY BROOKS. I'm done. I'll let you resume but, dude, that's an great pick but an awful decision. You know, the Knicks and Mets could use a guy like you in the front office...

:rotflmao:

 

[Bobcat10]

1 (65). San Francisco 49ers - CJ Moseley - DT - Missouri2 (66) St. Louis Rams (from Miami) - Craphonso Thorpe - WR - Florida St3 (67) Cleveland Browns - Mike Patterson - DT - USC4 (68) Tennessee Titans - Andew Walter - QB - Arizona St5 (69) Oakland Raiders - Ronald Bartell - CB - Howard6 (70) Miami Dolphins (from Chicago) - Jeremy Parquet - OT - Southern Miss7 (71) Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Marcus Johnson - OG - Ole Miss8 (72) Detroit Lions - Jason Campbell QB Aubrun9 (73) Houston Texans(Dallas) - Marion Barber III RB Minnesota10 (74) Washington Redskins - Fred Gibson WR Georgia11 (75) New York Giants - James Butler - S - Georgia Tech12 (76) Arizona Cardinals - Evan Mathis - OG - Alabama13 (77) Philadelphia Eagles(KC) - JJ Arrington RB Cal 14 (78) Houston Texans - Michael Boley LB Southern Missisippi15 (79) Carolina Panthers - JR Russell WR Louisville16 (80) Minnesota Vikings - Mike Nugent - K - The Ohio State University17 (81) St. Louis Rams - Bill Swancutt - DE - Oregon St.18 (82) New Orleans Saints - Darrent Williams - CB - Oklahoma State19 (83) Cincinnati Bengals20 (84) Baltimore Ravens 21 (85) Jacksonville Jaguars22 (86) Seattle Seahawks23 (87) Buffalo Bills 24 (88) New York Jets25 (89) Green Bay Packers 26 (90) Denver Broncos - forfeited pick27 (91) Atlanta Falcons28 (92) Tampa Bay Buccaneers(SD)29 (93) Indianapolis Colts30 (94) Philadelphia Eagles 31 (95) New England Patriots32 (96) Pittsburgh Steelers

 

[Kirby]

Jamaal Brimmer - SS - UNLV

As this pick neared, I was trying to decide between Bill Swancutt and Jamaal Brimmer. Swancutt was taken a couple of picks earlier, so that made my decision.. well not a decision I was leaning towards Brimmer anyways because I think Geathers and Clemons can handle the end for another year. Brimmer is a big hitter and great against the run. He is also decent in coverage. Very athletic with tons of potential. He should be able to make an impact in his first year.

The Bengals once slacking D is looking a lot better with the additions in the draft.

 

[Bobcat10]

Jamaal Brimmer - SS - UNLV

As this pick neared, I was trying to decide between Bill Swancutt and Jamaal Brimmer. Swancutt was taken a couple of picks earlier, so that made my decision.. well not a decision I was leaning towards Brimmer anyways because I think Geathers and Clemons can handle the end for another year. Brimmer is a big hitter and great against the run. He is also decent in coverage. Very athletic with tons of potential. He should be able to make an impact in his first year.

The Bengals once slacking D is looking a lot better with the additions in the draft.

Nice pick, again. I think the North is drafting well.

 

[J R]

But the tell-tale for me about Brooks has nothing to do with his ability. Fact is, I don't see his teammates buying him as a leader. When he tries to lead, it seems as if it's a choreographed attempt to give him more 'responsibility' and when he doesn't lead, he doesn't.I believe the Saints are weighed down by the anchor that is Aaron Brooks physical talent. When he first came onto the scene he was a dynamic playmaker that spurred the Saints to nice heights. But since then for whatever reason the team has stopped responding to him.

This is a really great point--but I would suggest a different interpretation. Worry about Brooks being a leader seems to me a creation of the stupidity of Haslett/the FO sending Brooks to leadership camp or whatever it was, and the subsequent media coverage that ever since likes to remind us of that. Players are probably just as influenced by that coverage as fans are. If people didn't equate being a loudmouth with being a leader, or just called Brooks a leader, people probably wouldn't think of it as a problem. But if people are focused on it, Brooks probably attracts an unfair balance of the blame, prompting him to feel like he has to defend himself (the 'it's not my fault' thing), which of course gets written down as lack of leadership, continuing the cycle. So, you might be totally right that the team doesn't buy him as a leader, but leadership isn't so much an essence people possess, but is the product of a context that gets attributed to someone as a label after the fact. Like the way nearly every baseball team that is winning has a manager that is good at "creating clubhouse chemistry."If this is so, a "change of scenery" would be great for Brooks. The real winner if the Saints really did draft Alex Smith is whatever team swoops in and picks up Brooks probably pretty cheaply in trade.

 

[Hit55]

Has this fizzled out or what?

 

[saintfool]

Has this fizzled out or what?

I did what I could.

 

[saintfool]

Has this fizzled out or what?

I did what I could. :shrugs:

 

[Reaper]

Has this fizzled out or what?

No... Not at all.This is about the pace this part of the draft takes - The end of the round usually finishes fast and it'll be done this week!!!!!!!!

 

[-OZ-]

Has this fizzled out or what?

No... Not at all.This is about the pace this part of the draft takes - The end of the round usually finishes fast and it'll be done this week!!!!!!!!

Don't forget, this draft is now at the stage where most fans aren't really sure who to take.The first round is easy, not only are there 10000 mocks out there to reference, we've all seen most of these guys play all year. How many actually saw UNLV last year, or paid much attention to Southern Miss's OT, or Georgie Tech's OG? Except for those teams fans and the die hards, very few can speak intelligibly on those players. Personally, I'm learning a lot here, keep up the good work guys.

 

[-OZ-]

But the tell-tale for me about Brooks has nothing to do with his ability. Fact is, I don't see his teammates buying him as a leader. When he tries to lead, it seems as if it's a choreographed attempt to give him more 'responsibility' and when he doesn't lead, he doesn't.I believe the Saints are weighed down by the anchor that is Aaron Brooks physical talent. When he first came onto the scene he was a dynamic playmaker that spurred the Saints to nice heights. But since then for whatever reason the team has stopped responding to him.

This is a really great point--but I would suggest a different interpretation. Worry about Brooks being a leader seems to me a creation of the stupidity of Haslett/the FO sending Brooks to leadership camp or whatever it was, and the subsequent media coverage that ever since likes to remind us of that. Players are probably just as influenced by that coverage as fans are. If people didn't equate being a loudmouth with being a leader, or just called Brooks a leader, people probably wouldn't think of it as a problem. But if people are focused on it, Brooks probably attracts an unfair balance of the blame, prompting him to feel like he has to defend himself (the 'it's not my fault' thing), which of course gets written down as lack of leadership, continuing the cycle. So, you might be totally right that the team doesn't buy him as a leader, but leadership isn't so much an essence people possess, but is the product of a context that gets attributed to someone as a label after the fact. Like the way nearly every baseball team that is winning has a manager that is good at "creating clubhouse chemistry."If this is so, a "change of scenery" would be great for Brooks. The real winner if the Saints really did draft Alex Smith is whatever team swoops in and picks up Brooks probably pretty cheaply in trade.

Good points, and I agree to a large extent.Brooks has never shown leadership though, which prompts the media's attention.A change of scenery and maturity would help Brooks, but he most likely will never fit the Favre, Brady or Elway mold. Some Super Bowl champions didn't have true leaders at QB though, so maybe things will work out. For example, put Brooks in Baltimore, he'd do well there.

 

[saintfool]

Good points, and I agree to a large extent.Brooks has never shown leadership though, which prompts the media's attention.A change of scenery and maturity would help Brooks, but he most likely will never fit the Favre, Brady or Elway mold. Some Super Bowl champions didn't have true leaders at QB though, so maybe things will work out. For example, put Brooks in Baltimore, he'd do well there.

This brings up a good point though. There are system QB's who didn't exactly act as General Patton for their squads. Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Chandler, Collins all serve as examples of recent Superbowl teams that went in with Qb's who were less than dynamic. You want to talk about the intangible, often ephemeral quality of leadership? I'd argue that *nothing* these guys offered up was so special and yet they appeared in the SB. Even more interesting, some of them won it. Brooks is as good and is surrounded by comparable talent. I'm sorry but not every QB is HOF material. What's the common thread among the QB's I mentioned above and Elway, Brady and Young? Coaching. Reeves, Fassel, Billick, Gruden as well as Walsh, Belicheck, and Shanny all have excellent coaches and staffs sourrounding them. To follow through on your example, instead of putting Brooks in Baltimore; I suggest you put Brian Billick in NO. Who here wouldn't think they'd be in the playoffs?

 

[TheDirtyWord]

Good points, and I agree to a large extent.Brooks has never shown leadership though, which prompts the media's attention.A change of scenery and maturity would help Brooks, but he most likely will never fit the Favre, Brady or Elway mold. Some Super Bowl champions didn't have true leaders at QB though, so maybe things will work out. For example, put Brooks in Baltimore, he'd do well there.

This brings up a good point though. There are system QB's who didn't exactly act as General Patton for their squads. Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Chandler, Collins all serve as examples of recent Superbowl teams that went in with Qb's who were less than dynamic. You want to talk about the intangible, often ephemeral quality of leadership? I'd argue that *nothing* these guys offered up was so special and yet they appeared in the SB. Even more interesting, some of them won it. Brooks is as good and is surrounded by comparable talent. I'm sorry but not every QB is HOF material. What's the common thread among the QB's I mentioned above and Elway, Brady and Young? Coaching. Reeves, Fassel, Billick, Gruden as well as Walsh, Belicheck, and Shanny all have excellent coaches and staffs sourrounding them. To follow through on your example, instead of putting Brooks in Baltimore; I suggest you put Brian Billick in NO. Who here wouldn't think they'd be in the playoffs?

To counter your point, Dilfer is amongst a class of "great guys" in the NFL that many teammates would fall on their swords for. What he lacks in talent he more than makes up for with guts and perspective. Teammates recognize that.As for Johnson and Chandler, those QB's played extremely efficiently within the scope of the offensive system and when their teams needed them to make plays in the SB seasons, they invariably did. Another thing those QB's had in their favor was the fact that they worked extremely hard through some very bad situations to persevere and get to where they got. Johnson in Minnesota & Washington (unfairly jettisoned in WAS) and Chandler with countless teams. That type of sticktoitiveness no matter how you look at it engenders respect. It doesn't mean he's the favorite of every player, it just means that each player knows and believed in the character and make-up of each QB.As for Collins, he turned his life around from the abyss of alcoholism and very public and embarrassing stints in Carolina & New Orleans. He came to the Giants with his hat in hand and willingness to work to earn the trust and respect of his teammates. He came to training camp with no car so he could hitch rides with others to help him in the bonding and relationship process that was going to be some tough ice to crack.Leadership doesn't mean being a rah-rah 'let's go get em' type personality. It simply means that others believe in the person you are and the values you uphold and the manner in which you go about yuor business.Aaron Brooks slammed his team as being inferior to Carolina's so he could justify his NFL QB standing against Jake Delhomme a month ago...

 

[saintfool]

To counter your point, Dilfer is amongst a class of "great guys" in the NFL that many teammates would fall on their swords for. What he lacks in talent he more than makes up for with guts and perspective. Teammates recognize that.As for Johnson and Chandler, those QB's played extremely efficiently within the scope of the offensive system and when their teams needed them to make plays in the SB seasons, they invariably did. Another thing those QB's had in their favor was the fact that they worked extremely hard through some very bad situations to persevere and get to where they got. Johnson in Minnesota & Washington (unfairly jettisoned in WAS) and Chandler with countless teams. That type of sticktoitiveness no matter how you look at it engenders respect. It doesn't mean he's the favorite of every player, it just means that each player knows and believed in the character and make-up of each QB.As for Collins, he turned his life around from the abyss of alcoholism and very public and embarrassing stints in Carolina & New Orleans. He came to the Giants with his hat in hand and willingness to work to earn the trust and respect of his teammates. He came to training camp with no car so he could hitch rides with others to help him in the bonding and relationship process that was going to be some tough ice to crack.Leadership doesn't mean being a rah-rah 'let's go get em' type personality. It simply means that others believe in the person you are and the values you uphold and the manner in which you go about yuor business.Aaron Brooks slammed his team as being inferior to Carolina's so he could justify his NFL QB standing against Jake Delhomme a month ago...

That's not really answering my question though. I'm not arguing that Brooks is a franchise QB. My point is that coaching is the difference in his case. Put him with Baltimore and he'd flourish? Maybe. Put Brian Billick in NO and would the Saints flourish? More than likely.The anecdotal evidence you provide about those QB's is largely irrelevant, if not downright untrue (as in the case of Dilfer who was an ######## on a lame team before coming to Baltimore). These guys were not franchise QB's. They didn't show much leadership. They were all choices at the position that were seen as "at risk" due to numerous factors - injury, attitude, age or whatever. They were asked to play within the system.Again, my position is that the lack of development for Brooks, the offense and the defense should be squarely put on the coaching staff. Haslet, McCarthy and Venturi are accountable. Brooks lack of leadership, such as it is, is symptomatic of the greater malaise within that team.

 

[Bobcat10]

1 (65). San Francisco 49ers - CJ Moseley - DT - Missouri2 (66) St. Louis Rams (from Miami) - Craphonso Thorpe - WR - Florida St3 (67) Cleveland Browns - Mike Patterson - DT - USC4 (68) Tennessee Titans - Andew Walter - QB - Arizona St5 (69) Oakland Raiders - Ronald Bartell - CB - Howard6 (70) Miami Dolphins (from Chicago) - Jeremy Parquet - OT - Southern Miss7 (71) Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Marcus Johnson - OG - Ole Miss8 (72) Detroit Lions - Jason Campbell QB Aubrun9 (73) Houston Texans(Dallas) - Marion Barber III RB Minnesota10 (74) Washington Redskins - Fred Gibson WR Georgia11 (75) New York Giants - James Butler - S - Georgia Tech12 (76) Arizona Cardinals - Evan Mathis - OG - Alabama13 (77) Philadelphia Eagles(KC) - JJ Arrington RB Cal 14 (78) Houston Texans - Michael Boley LB Southern Missisippi15 (79) Carolina Panthers - JR Russell WR Louisville16 (80) Minnesota Vikings - Mike Nugent - K - The Ohio State University17 (81) St. Louis Rams - Bill Swancutt - DE - Oregon St.18 (82) New Orleans Saints - Darrent Williams - CB - Oklahoma State19 (83) Cincinnati Bengals - Jamaal Brimmer - SS - UNLV20 (84) Baltimore Ravens 21 (85) Jacksonville Jaguars22 (86) Seattle Seahawks23 (87) Buffalo Bills 24 (88) New York Jets25 (89) Green Bay Packers 26 (90) Denver Broncos - forfeited pick27 (91) Atlanta Falcons28 (92) Tampa Bay Buccaneers(SD)29 (93) Indianapolis Colts30 (94) Philadelphia Eagles 31 (95) New England Patriots32 (96) Pittsburgh Steelers The Ravens are up. What happened to all the user names from the first page? I don't know who to PM.EDIT, it is Wu-banger. I'll PM him.

 

[Wu-banger]

got the PM... give me a few to pick...hectic day a t work.

 

[Wu-banger]

The Baltimore Ravens select TA MCClendon , RB NC State

I am assuming Jamal Lewis is done with his Tony Montana-like ways but I still feel TA would be an excellent insurance policy if Lewis got in more trouble or got skanked during his jail bid!!!

Musa Smith seemed slow in the NFL and Chester Talor filled in admirably but surely is not the answer.

I wouldnt be a surprise to see the Ravens wait another round or two before making a similiar selection or get a more change of pace guy like Sproles or Anthony Davis.

*edited to make it easier to see I picked amid the Brooks hijack

 

[TheDirtyWord]

To counter your point, Dilfer is amongst a class of "great guys" in the NFL that many teammates would fall on their swords for. What he lacks in talent he more than makes up for with guts and perspective. Teammates recognize that.As for Johnson and Chandler, those QB's played extremely efficiently within the scope of the offensive system and when their teams needed them to make plays in the SB seasons, they invariably did. Another thing those QB's had in their favor was the fact that they worked extremely hard through some very bad situations to persevere and get to where they got. Johnson in Minnesota & Washington (unfairly jettisoned in WAS) and Chandler with countless teams. That type of sticktoitiveness no matter how you look at it engenders respect. It doesn't mean he's the favorite of every player, it just means that each player knows and believed in the character and make-up of each QB.As for Collins, he turned his life around from the abyss of alcoholism and very public and embarrassing stints in Carolina & New Orleans. He came to the Giants with his hat in hand and willingness to work to earn the trust and respect of his teammates. He came to training camp with no car so he could hitch rides with others to help him in the bonding and relationship process that was going to be some tough ice to crack.Leadership doesn't mean being a rah-rah 'let's go get em' type personality. It simply means that others believe in the person you are and the values you uphold and the manner in which you go about yuor business.Aaron Brooks slammed his team as being inferior to Carolina's so he could justify his NFL QB standing against Jake Delhomme a month ago...

That's not really answering my question though. I'm not arguing that Brooks is a franchise QB. My point is that coaching is the difference in his case. Put him with Baltimore and he'd flourish? Maybe. Put Brian Billick in NO and would the Saints flourish? More than likely.The anecdotal evidence you provide about those QB's is largely irrelevant, if not downright untrue (as in the case of Dilfer who was an ######## on a lame team before coming to Baltimore). These guys were not franchise QB's. They didn't show much leadership. They were all choices at the position that were seen as "at risk" due to numerous factors - injury, attitude, age or whatever. They were asked to play within the system.Again, my position is that the lack of development for Brooks, the offense and the defense should be squarely put on the coaching staff. Haslet, McCarthy and Venturi are accountable. Brooks lack of leadership, such as it is, is symptomatic of the greater malaise within that team.

It's interesting that you use Billick because in Baltimore, it's not as if he's had much if any luck developing QB's at all. In fact, you could say that the biggest mistake of his regime was letting Dilfer go (although Newsome had a say in that as well).But that off-season after they won the SB, they picked up Elvis Grbac...a notoriously aloof QB who nonetheless had put up great numbers the previous 2 years. He was a disaster in Baltimore and under Billick. To Billick's credit, he recognized this and jettisoned him. Now part of that decision lied in the fact that the veterans on that team like Ray Lewis and Shannon Sharpe outrighted rejected the guy but that said...while statistically he was very bad...it was his lack of leadership skills that ultimately sunk him.The difference in NO is that the front office and coaching brass there is still seduced by Brooks obviously physical talent. Like Billick did back with Grbac, it's time for NO to start finding a suitable replacement. The whole debate started about Alex Smith being picked at #16. A good pick for NO IMO.

 

[saintfool]

It's interesting that you use Billick because in Baltimore, it's not as if he's had much if any luck developing QB's at all. In fact, you could say that the biggest mistake of his regime was letting Dilfer go (although Newsome had a say in that as well).But that off-season after they won the SB, they picked up Elvis Grbac...a notoriously aloof QB who nonetheless had put up great numbers the previous 2 years. He was a disaster in Baltimore and under Billick. To Billick's credit, he recognized this and jettisoned him. Now part of that decision lied in the fact that the veterans on that team like Ray Lewis and Shannon Sharpe outrighted rejected the guy but that said...while statistically he was very bad...it was his lack of leadership skills that ultimately sunk him.The difference in NO is that the front office and coaching brass there is still seduced by Brooks obviously physical talent. Like Billick did back with Grbac, it's time for NO to start finding a suitable replacement. The whole debate started about Alex Smith being picked at #16. A good pick for NO IMO.

Well, my selecting Baltimore and/or Billick was following someone else saying that Brooks in Baltimore might be a nice change of scenery. I agree it likely would benefit him. However, I think it would benefit him because Billick is such a good coach and in control of his team.I'm not down on Haslet, per se, nor am I necessarily pro-Brooks. I do think the offense, and Brooks consequently, have not progressed effectively under the tutelage of Haslet's offensive coaching staff. Certainly, the defense bears the burden of that too, as talent is abundant there too. The reason I defend Brooks here is that he's not really done anything to warrant No to give up on him. He's in his prime, physically. Now, if folks were seriously anti-Brooks they would have asked for him to be benched, as Gruden did with Johnson. I haven't heard anyone say that with regards to Brooks. Consequently, you're not identifying QB as the problem with the Saints. Defense has consistently been identified as the problem, and the stats bear that out, but far be from me to be the voice of reason.

 

[-OZ-]

It's interesting that you use Billick because in Baltimore, it's not as if he's had much if any luck developing QB's at all. In fact, you could say that the biggest mistake of his regime was letting Dilfer go (although Newsome had a say in that as well).But that off-season after they won the SB, they picked up Elvis Grbac...a notoriously aloof QB who nonetheless had put up great numbers the previous 2 years. He was a disaster in Baltimore and under Billick. To Billick's credit, he recognized this and jettisoned him. Now part of that decision lied in the fact that the veterans on that team like Ray Lewis and Shannon Sharpe outrighted rejected the guy but that said...while statistically he was very bad...it was his lack of leadership skills that ultimately sunk him.The difference in NO is that the front office and coaching brass there is still seduced by Brooks obviously physical talent. Like Billick did back with Grbac, it's time for NO to start finding a suitable replacement. The whole debate started about Alex Smith being picked at #16. A good pick for NO IMO.

Well, my selecting Baltimore and/or Billick was following someone else saying that Brooks in Baltimore might be a nice change of scenery. I agree it likely would benefit him. However, I think it would benefit him because Billick is such a good coach and in control of his team.I'm not down on Haslet, per se, nor am I necessarily pro-Brooks. I do think the offense, and Brooks consequently, have not progressed effectively under the tutelage of Haslet's offensive coaching staff. Certainly, the defense bears the burden of that too, as talent is abundant there too. The reason I defend Brooks here is that he's not really done anything to warrant No to give up on him. He's in his prime, physically. Now, if folks were seriously anti-Brooks they would have asked for him to be benched, as Gruden did with Johnson. I haven't heard anyone say that with regards to Brooks. Consequently, you're not identifying QB as the problem with the Saints. Defense has consistently been identified as the problem, and the stats bear that out, but far be from me to be the voice of reason.

I chose Baltimore as an easy example of a team that doesn't need the QB as the leader.I'm sure there are others.

 

[J R]

Good points, and I agree to a large extent.Brooks has never shown leadership though, which prompts the media's attention.

I should clarify something: I don't believe "leadership" is a real thing. It's some sort of psuedo-concept for people who buy books from the same place they get their office supplies.That's not to say there might not be players whose teammates would "fall on swords" for them. But I would bet that's based on personal relationships (maybe not everyone is equally impressed with Collins overcoming alcoholism; K.Warner's god and family profile probably appealed to some and made him some kind of "leader in the community" but bothered others), winning, and media shaping of perception (which imo is the fitting of complex events into stock narratives).

Aaron Brooks slammed his team as being inferior to Carolina's so he could justify his NFL QB standing against Jake Delhomme a month ago... yucky.gif

I referenced this in an earlier post I made. A more charitable--and less simplistic--way of reading this is that Brooks may have hit a breaking point where he's tired of being unfairly blamed for the team's lack of success. Maybe he could have handled this better, but you would be hard pressed to name a QB that's had to answer criticism as continously and consistently as he has. A simple thought experiment: if that had been Aaron Brooks that, in a playoff game (some wiseass is going to grab a cartoon smilehead and say 'if they ever made the playoffs' if I don't pre-empt it here), ran across the line of scrimmage and then instead of diving for the first down, flipped the ball into the endzone with a smile, what would have been the story? It wouldn't have been, 'geez that Aaron Brooks is having fun out there,' it would be 'once again it shows you that Aaron Brooks isn't a leader.'

 

[Bobcat10]

This news could have possibly changed the Browns direction in this draft, especially the 3rd round pick.

On his preference to run a 3-4 defense (three linemen, four linebackers): "That's something I would like to continue to use. It's a defense that we know and feel pretty comfortable with and have been successful with."

LINK

 

[-OZ-]

Good points, and I agree to a large extent.Brooks has never shown leadership though, which prompts the media's attention.

I should clarify something: I don't believe "leadership" is a real thing. It's some sort of psuedo-concept for people who buy books from the same place they get their office supplies.That's not to say there might not be players whose teammates would "fall on swords" for them. But I would bet that's based on personal relationships (maybe not everyone is equally impressed with Collins overcoming alcoholism; K.Warner's god and family profile probably appealed to some and made him some kind of "leader in the community" but bothered others), winning, and media shaping of perception (which imo is the fitting of complex events into stock narratives).

This might come from your personal background, but from the Military perspective, leadership is key. You can't put your thumb on it, or quantify it, but there are some leaders, who although not the most tactically competent, have a knack with their soldiers and get things done. Granted, the QB isn't automatically the Commander, but leadership is an important element in any team or organization.

 

[J R]

This news could have possibly changed the Browns direction in this draft, especially the 3rd round pick.

great point. probably the 2nd round pick as well since almost all the top LBs were still available there. blackstock or ware especially.

 

[Bobcat10]

This news could have possibly changed the Browns direction in this draft, especially the 3rd round pick.

great point. probably the 2nd round pick as well since almost all the top LBs were still available there. blackstock or ware especially.

I think I would have stuck with E. Brown in the 2nd, but went with Boley in the 3rd. From what I've read, it sounds like he's a 3-4 kinda LB. But you are right, there were alot of LBs still there in the 2nd.

 

[J R]

QUOTE (J R @ Feb 2 2005, 02:44 PM)QUOTEThis news could have possibly changed the Browns direction in this draft, especially the 3rd round pick.great point. probably the 2nd round pick as well since almost all the top LBs were still available there. blackstock or ware especially.I think I would have stuck with E. Brown in the 2nd, but went with Boley in the 3rd. From what I've read, it sounds like he's a 3-4 kinda LB. But you are right, there were alot of LBs still there in the 2nd.

i like that idea. i keep forgetting about boley for some reason. why does he seem to be rated so much lower than the other guys? it seems like almost every LB you read about is a 3-4 kinda LB, so it can't be that, can it? i saw him play once last year and he looked like a player to my untrained eye.

 

[J R]

####, how do i make the boxes within the boxes?

 

[Bobcat10]

QUOTE (J R @ Feb 2 2005, 02:44 PM)QUOTEThis news could have possibly changed the Browns direction in this draft, especially the 3rd round pick.great point. probably the 2nd round pick as well since almost all the top LBs were still available there. blackstock or ware especially.I think I would have stuck with E. Brown in the 2nd, but went with Boley in the 3rd. From what I've read, it sounds like he's a 3-4 kinda LB. But you are right, there were alot of LBs still there in the 2nd.

i like that idea. i keep forgetting about boley for some reason. why does he seem to be rated so much lower than the other guys? it seems like almost every LB you read about is a 3-4 kinda LB, so it can't be that, can it? i saw him play once last year and he looked like a player to my untrained eye.

What I've read about him is that he's a pass rusher with good speed. But he's 6'3 213, so he's kinda tall and skinny. Maybe his lower ranking is due to that? I've also read that he does not take on blocks well, so that might hurt him in the NFL vs the run. Either way, he'll need to bulk up to play LB.

 

[beto]

I just PMed JR for the Jags pick. I guess he was so caught up in this riveting Aaron Brooks discussion that he didn't realize he was up? 1 (65). San Francisco 49ers - CJ Moseley - DT - Missouri2 (66) St. Louis Rams (from Miami) - Craphonso Thorpe - WR - Florida St3 (67) Cleveland Browns - Mike Patterson - DT - USC4 (68) Tennessee Titans - Andew Walter - QB - Arizona St5 (69) Oakland Raiders - Ronald Bartell - CB - Howard6 (70) Miami Dolphins (from Chicago) - Jeremy Parquet - OT - Southern Miss7 (71) Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Marcus Johnson - OG - Ole Miss8 (72) Detroit Lions - Jason Campbell QB Aubrun9 (73) Houston Texans(Dallas) - Marion Barber III RB Minnesota10 (74) Washington Redskins - Fred Gibson WR Georgia11 (75) New York Giants - James Butler - S - Georgia Tech12 (76) Arizona Cardinals - Evan Mathis - OG - Alabama13 (77) Philadelphia Eagles(KC) - JJ Arrington RB Cal14 (78) Houston Texans - Michael Boley LB Southern Missisippi15 (79) Carolina Panthers - JR Russell WR Louisville16 (80) Minnesota Vikings - Mike Nugent - K - The Ohio State University17 (81) St. Louis Rams - Bill Swancutt - DE - Oregon St.18 (82) New Orleans Saints - Darrent Williams - CB - Oklahoma State19 (83) Cincinnati Bengals - Jamaal Brimmer - SS - UNLV20 (84) Baltimore Ravens - TA Mclendon RB NCSU21 (85) Jacksonville Jaguars Chris Colmer OT NCSU22 (86) Seattle Seahawks - Michael Roos OT Eastern Washington23 (87) Buffalo Bills - Josh Bullocks FS Nebraska24 (88) New York Jets - Vincent Fuller S VT25 (89) Green Bay Packers - OTC26 (90) Denver Broncos - forfeited pick27 (91) Atlanta Falcons28 (92) Tampa Bay Buccaneers(SD)29 (93) Indianapolis Colts30 (94) Philadelphia Eagles31 (95) New England Patriots32 (96) Pittsburgh Steelers

 

[Bobcat10]

Good catch Beto. I did not see Wu Banger's pick until just now.

 

[J R]

I just PMed JR for the Jags pick. I guess he was so caught up in this riveting Aaron Brooks discussion that he didn't realize he was up?

####, good catch. i had a different draft order so i was waiting for someone else. give the jags Chis Colmer, OT NC St 6'5-6'6 300ish. this leaves CB unaddressed 1st day, but after the late 2nd/early 3rd run, there's not so much value there. Colmer has considerable upside if he's healthy. He's only around in the 3rd b/c he's missed time with Parsonage-Turner syndrome. Here's its summary at webmd:

a common condition characterized by inflammation of a network of nerves that control and supply (innervate) the muscles of the chest, shoulders, and arms (brachial plexus). Individuals with the condition first experience a sudden onset of severe pain across the shoulder and upper arm. Within a few hours or days, the muscles of the affected shoulder may be affected by weakness, wasting (atrophy), and paralysis (atrophic paralysis). Although individuals with the condition may experience paralysis of the affected areas for months or, in some cases, years, recovery is usually complete. The exact cause of Parsonage-Turner Syndrome is not known.

if colmer falls under "recovery is usually complete," the Jags have themselves a guy who can push Pearson/Williams for a starting job.

 

[J R]

1 (65). San Francisco 49ers - CJ Moseley - DT - Missouri2 (66) St. Louis Rams (from Miami) - Craphonso Thorpe - WR - Florida St3 (67) Cleveland Browns - Mike Patterson - DT - USC4 (68) Tennessee Titans - Andew Walter - QB - Arizona St5 (69) Oakland Raiders - Ronald Bartell - CB - Howard6 (70) Miami Dolphins (from Chicago) - Jeremy Parquet - OT - Southern Miss7 (71) Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Marcus Johnson - OG - Ole Miss8 (72) Detroit Lions - Jason Campbell QB Aubrun9 (73) Houston Texans(Dallas) - Marion Barber III RB Minnesota10 (74) Washington Redskins - Fred Gibson WR Georgia11 (75) New York Giants - James Butler - S - Georgia Tech12 (76) Arizona Cardinals - Evan Mathis - OG - Alabama13 (77) Philadelphia Eagles(KC) - JJ Arrington RB Cal14 (78) Houston Texans - Michael Boley LB Southern Missisippi15 (79) Carolina Panthers - JR Russell WR Louisville16 (80) Minnesota Vikings - Mike Nugent - K - The Ohio State University17 (81) St. Louis Rams - Bill Swancutt - DE - Oregon St.18 (82) New Orleans Saints - Darrent Williams - CB - Oklahoma State19 (83) Cincinnati Bengals - Jamaal Brimmer - SS - UNLV20 (84) Baltimore Ravens - TA Mclendon RB NCSU21 (85) Jacksonville Jaguars OTC - Chris Colmer OT NCSU22 (86) Seattle Seahawks23 (87) Buffalo Bills24 (88) New York Jets25 (89) Green Bay Packers26 (90) Denver Broncos - forfeited pick27 (91) Atlanta Falcons28 (92) Tampa Bay Buccaneers(SD)29 (93) Indianapolis Colts30 (94) Philadelphia Eagles31 (95) New England Patriots32 (96) Pittsburgh Steelers

 

[Bobcat10]

We voted on Seattle last time. So far:1st Cadillac Williams- RB- Auburn2nd Barrett Rudd- LB- Nebraska

 

[J R]

my vote for Seattle:1--Roscoe Parrish, or insert whatever WR everyone else rates higher2--michael Roos, OT

 

[Bloom]

I say the hawks go for a RT to replace womack -Ray Willis, Florida St.

 

[Bloom]

my vote for Seattle:1--Roscoe Parrish, or insert whatever WR everyone else rates higher2--michael Roos, OT

i like willis better than roos because willis is basically ready to step in and play, which the hawks will need if womack walks. roos is a project.

 

[Dolfan]

my vote for Seattle:1--Roscoe Parrish, or insert whatever WR everyone else rates higher2--michael Roos, OT

i like willis better than roos because willis is basically ready to step in and play, which the hawks will need if womack walks. roos is a project.

I was watching the offensive and defensive lines closely at the Senior Bowl because 1) My team needs OL and DL help; and 2) You can get a feel for how the skill position players did by looking at the box scores.Roos was probably the most impressive OL there after David Baas.Willis looked terrible. In fact, the entire South O-line got handled most of the game. Parquet was the only one on the South O-line who played well.Roos, Bass, and Jonathan Clinkscale all stood out to me as blocking well for the North. I read a negative review of Clinkscale somewhere, but everytime I watched him, he looked very good.I'm no scout and I know you can't judge a lot from watching one game, but I wouldn't say Willis is in another class from Roos. I like Roos better, but if anything they are pretty close to even.Just my

 

[Bloom]

my vote for Seattle:1--Roscoe Parrish, or insert whatever WR everyone else rates higher2--michael Roos, OT

i like willis better than roos because willis is basically ready to step in and play, which the hawks will need if womack walks. roos is a project.

I was watching the offensive and defensive lines closely at the Senior Bowl because 1) My team needs OL and DL help; and 2) You can get a feel for how the skill position players did by looking at the box scores.Roos was probably the most impressive OL there after David Baas.Willis looked terrible. In fact, the entire South O-line got handled most of the game. Parquet was the only one on the South O-line who played well.Roos, Bass, and Jonathan Clinkscale all stood out to me as blocking well for the North. I read a negative review of Clinkscale somewhere, but everytime I watched him, he looked very good.I'm no scout and I know you can't judge a lot from watching one game, but I wouldn't say Willis is in another class from Roos. I like Roos better, but if anything they are pretty close to even.Just my

thats fair. roos may very well be further along than he was in initial assessments. i didnt catch that willis got schooled in the senior bowl - i was just looking for the RT who would be closest to NFL ready, even if he has a lower upside. i definitely agree that roos has a higher ceiling and is the better long term prospect.

 

[jgb95]

I vote for Roos.

 

[J R]

was Willis the guy that Swancutt abused?

 

[Dolfan]

was Willis the guy that Swancutt abused?

Yep.. Swancutt and Roth both...

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

to keep this moving, I'll 3rd (or 4th) the nomination for Roos.Let me know when the Bills are up.

 

[Reaper]

1 (65). San Francisco 49ers - CJ Moseley - DT - Missouri2 (66) St. Louis Rams (from Miami) - Craphonso Thorpe - WR - Florida St3 (67) Cleveland Browns - Mike Patterson - DT - USC4 (68) Tennessee Titans - Andew Walter - QB - Arizona St5 (69) Oakland Raiders - Ronald Bartell - CB - Howard6 (70) Miami Dolphins (from Chicago) - Jeremy Parquet - OT - Southern Miss7 (71) Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Marcus Johnson - OG - Ole Miss8 (72) Detroit Lions - Jason Campbell QB Aubrun9 (73) Houston Texans(Dallas) - Marion Barber III RB Minnesota10 (74) Washington Redskins - Fred Gibson WR Georgia11 (75) New York Giants - James Butler - S - Georgia Tech12 (76) Arizona Cardinals - Evan Mathis - OG - Alabama13 (77) Philadelphia Eagles(KC) - JJ Arrington RB Cal14 (78) Houston Texans - Michael Boley LB Southern Missisippi15 (79) Carolina Panthers - JR Russell WR Louisville16 (80) Minnesota Vikings - Mike Nugent - K - The Ohio State University17 (81) St. Louis Rams - Bill Swancutt - DE - Oregon St.18 (82) New Orleans Saints - Darrent Williams - CB - Oklahoma State19 (83) Cincinnati Bengals - Jamaal Brimmer - SS - UNLV20 (84) Baltimore Ravens - TA Mclendon RB NCSU21 (85) Jacksonville Jaguars OTC - Chris Colmer OT NCSU22 (86) Seattle Seahawks - Michael Roos OT Eastern Washington 23 (87) Buffalo Bills24 (88) New York Jets25 (89) Green Bay Packers26 (90) Denver Broncos - forfeited pick27 (91) Atlanta Falcons28 (92) Tampa Bay Buccaneers(SD)29 (93) Indianapolis Colts30 (94) Philadelphia Eagles31 (95) New England Patriots32 (96) Pittsburgh SteelersBILLS ARE UP

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Buffalo Bills select FS Josh Bullocks, Nebraska

This guy had 10 interceptions his sophomore year (only 2 in his junior year) and proved that he can be an elite playmaker from the safety position. He is described by scouts as a smart player with great range who excels in coverage. This is exactly the type of player the Bills should have drafted years ago instead of relying on a cast of rejects at FS over the years. Last year, they finally got some stability at the position when they moved Troy Vincent over from CB. Troy can still play CB when needed, so if Bullocks shows enough progress early in camp to earn the starting job, that will give the Bills 3 very solid CBs to match up with any team in the league. If he's slow to develop, they can keep Vincent at FS and allow Bullocks to develop while contributing in nickel and dime packages, and on special teams as well. Lastly, Nate Clements is entering his contract year, so this is also a pick to start preparing for the future. OT and DT were considerations here b/c of the pending FA status of Jonas Jennings and Pat Williams, but the talent available at those positions did not seem worthy of this selection. RB was also an option, assuming that Travis Henry will be traded, but this is a deep RB class and comparable talent can be found on the 2nd day of the draft.