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*** 2013 Oakland Raiders thread *** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter UnknownCoach
- Start date
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I'm not sure that Carson Palmer is tradable with his present contract. Sure he could agree to a paycut with his new potential team in order to help the Raiders trade him, but why would he do that when he can just refuse his paycut now, get released and have more say in where he ends up?
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I think for Carson as a practical matter he would like to choose his destination, and Reggie can screw him over by sending to the hinterlands of Buffalo or New York if they are desperate enough to pay his $13 million salary. Maybe he agrees to a restructure as part of the trade package to send him to a preferred destination like Arizona. As the draft draws closer and free agency spending draws to a close, most teams will have their starting QB in place by the end of the first night of the draft. Carson's leverage dwindles. I don't see any action on Palmer until the night of the draft and we could see a day two draft trade similiar to the Raiders deal for Jason Campbell with the Redskins for a 4th round pick.
kaso
Footballguy
I agree with this from the pure stance of only looking at the details surrounding Palmer. But the tripping point for me, and I think for McKenzie, is what happens once Palmer is traded - who are the QBs for the Raiders in 2013?I can't think of a scenario where Palmer is traded without Reggie already having another QB on the Roster. As it stands it's Pryor and Palmer. No chance McKenzie stands for having only Pryor on the roster for even 15 minutes. The options I think at the moment are: Draft Geno (I sure hope not), Sign Kolb (I sure hope not), or trade for Flynn (two trades to end up with basically the same QB and same contract? - maybe).
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
The Jets can't and I doubt the Bills would want to - they released virtually the same QB, Fitzpatrick, due to his salary.'Raiderfan32904 said:
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
I expect the Raiders to use some of their cap space to sign Porter, and/or Jenkins once they cut Kelly. Either or both represent a BIG upgrade at CB IMO.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Well then, there is always the possibility he takes a pay cut as part of his restructure. He did when he got traded from Cincinnati. But like I said earlier, not very likely he offers Buffalo or NY any pay cut. As a Raiders fan, I'm hoping the draft turns into a bidding war for QB's and a panic move sets a team in the direction of taking on Palmer's contract.
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
You're correct that no one will take on his contract, but like the prior post stated, the Raiders can just hang onto him until cut down day (I believe all his guaranteed $$ is done).No team is going to wait on him until end of camp to be their starter. And Carson will lose millions in the process. The Raiders can always allow his agent to shop him around to NFL team (to facilitate a trade)To my knowledge, there's no benefit to the Raiders to cutting Palmer now (or anytime soon) as opposed end of training camp.'Dr. Octopus said:
silentmark
Footballguy
What are the chances of Matt Flynn getting signed once Palmer is released ?
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
They'd have to trade for Flynn.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
All I know is, it will be poetic that we don't have our 2nd-round pick -OR- the player who cost us that pick.And for once, this one's not on Al.'Raiderfan32904 said:
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I'm honestly not sure if any of his contract is guaranteed at this point, but Palmer counts $15MM against the cap now and $9MM against the cap if released - so they'd free up about $5MM in cap space if he's released.Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't beleive the Raiders have all that much cap space so creating some room gives them felxibility to make other moves. They'll also need cap space to sign their incoming rookies so they can get them to camp. I doubt they are going to wait until training camp to cut him, in order to screw him out of a chance to go elsewhere, that sets a bad precendent for other FAs to sign when they see things like that.Bottom line is Palmer has a contract and it's within his rights not to take a paycut. He gets more of a choice if he's released than if he's traded - he has little incentive not to try and get released.I'm a Jets fan and I would love for them to be able to trade Mark Sanchez, but I know that's not very realistic. I don't think trading Palmer is all that realistic either, but I do understand why the team and it's fans would prefer it.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Not quite true, this deal was made under Hue's watch, who was part of Al's legacy. Had Al's established a strong front office instead of ruling like a paranoid dictator this deal would have never happened. Once Palmer is released or moved, everything from that point on will be part of Reggie's legacy.
cstu
Footballguy
I expect the Raiders to sign Vince Young.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
At this point I don't see why we need anyone else but Pryor. To your point, Flynn would be an upgrade and provide us with some more proven ability than Pryor, but let's face it -- the way this team has been dismantled, it's not as if Palmer is going to lead this team to many victories, let alone a guy like Flynn. We are going to be atrocious no matter the QB options. It's the perfect year to rip the band-aid off this team altogether -- take all the cap hits we can which makes it the perfect year to force Pryor to step up or step out. He's been developing for three years now, and it's high time we see what that development can bear. Worst case, he fails miserably, and we have that much more of a shot at Clowney and an upgrade via FA or drafting in 2014.'kaso said:
If Pryor actually shows some consistent spark like he did in his start last year, then great -- he can be a good interim transition QB over the next two years as we solidify other areas of need through this year and next, and go for a blue chip FA in 2015.
I hate to be defeatist and write off a year, but given that there is no way our beloved Silver and Black are going to be anywhere near competitive this year, it seems like a no-brainer at this point to cut Palmer and take on as much of the pain of rebuilding as we can now and help even more to free up space in the coming year to keep talents like McFadden, Reese, Houston, and The Incredible Hulk that is Veldheer.
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32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
+1Remember that Flynn couldn't beat out a rookie for a starting job. He has a very small sample size so he is almost as much an unknown quantity as Pryor. If we could bring him in cheaply (6th round pick, then sure, do it). His contract may have some baring on whether the Raiders can take on his cap number. They have some cap room now, but only have 20 odd players signed.
Its clearly not a detriment to lose a competition to Russell Wilson.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
My point wasn't to demean Russell only to show that Flynn is a very unproven commodity. Like I said, if he comes cheaply there is no harm. In regards to drafting a QB high, if the Raiders do suck as badly as we all expect then it would be wasting a year of the QB's development because the staff would be fired and he would have to start over.What a mess.
ICON211
Footballguy
With this roster purge next year might be a free year for the coaching staff. With these offseason moves it seems like Reggie convinced Mark Davis this is a multi-year rebuilding job and everyone was given assurances they were here for at least two more years. Total speculation on my part, but I think its a reasonable assumption given what has gone on.
LawFitz
Footballguy
This.Also the reason why they should cut or trade Palmer before June 1. 2013 is no longer about winning games, but rather building for the future. Might as well take his dead cap during the lost season, and not later. And it would give a good look at Pryor to see if he's worth building around. Count me as a guy who thinks good QBs don't need more than a season to sit. He needs to be thrown into the pool to see if he sinks or swims. Either way, they come out ahead by either unveiling his potential or moving on from it.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
Domenik Hixon - WR - Giants
Free agent WR Domenik Hixon is visiting the Raiders on Wednesday.
It's Hixon's first known visit since he turned down an offer from the Lions on the opening day of free agency. In Oakland, Hixon could return punts and kicks while also acting as a situational deep threat at receiver, replacing Darrius Heyward-Bey. Hixon, 28, is one of the better receivers left on the free-agent market.
Free agent WR Domenik Hixon is visiting the Raiders on Wednesday.
It's Hixon's first known visit since he turned down an offer from the Lions on the opening day of free agency. In Oakland, Hixon could return punts and kicks while also acting as a situational deep threat at receiver, replacing Darrius Heyward-Bey. Hixon, 28, is one of the better receivers left on the free-agent market.
LawFitz
Footballguy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=CydzUjk494s&feature=endscreen
I like Pryor's personality. I really hope he starts this season. His athleticism is ridiculous and his playing style is extremely exciting. Cam Newton, Colin Kaepernick, RGIII, Russell Wilson have laid out the blueprint for how to design the offense around this guy.
I like Pryor's personality. I really hope he starts this season. His athleticism is ridiculous and his playing style is extremely exciting. Cam Newton, Colin Kaepernick, RGIII, Russell Wilson have laid out the blueprint for how to design the offense around this guy.
I like his athleticism too, but that throwing motion, its painful to watch. You think that can be fixed? He's nowhere in the same league as Cam, Kaepernick, RGIII and Wilson IMO... But I do agree, it looks like they're in 100% rebuild mode. Might as well see what the kid can do.
UnknownCoach
Footballguy
I was pimping for Matt Flynn a couple years ago but then we traded for Palmer. At this point I'd rather just keep Palmer. Palmer has performed better than I expected. Flynn would have been a good fit for Knapp because Flynn is a system QB. Our WRs struggled in that system. We'd be back at square one with chemistry between the QB and receivers. I am hoping to go back to what seemed to be working when Hue Jackson was in charge. We'd also have to give up a draft pick for Flynn and wouldnt get much cap relief from the move until 2014. It would almost have to be a 3 team trade to work. Where we trade Palmer for a pick and a pick for Flynn.
Last year we tried to put new systems in on both sides of the ball and we all know how that turned out. This year we have turned over nearly the entire defense. The only returning starters are Branch, Houston, and Burris who might get sent to the bench. Put a new QB in the offense and the cycle continues. If the team proceeds to play worse then what? New coaches? New coaches then new systems again? New systems then new players again? Even though I like Flynn, he aint worth all that when we can just roll with Palmer.
Last year we tried to put new systems in on both sides of the ball and we all know how that turned out. This year we have turned over nearly the entire defense. The only returning starters are Branch, Houston, and Burris who might get sent to the bench. Put a new QB in the offense and the cycle continues. If the team proceeds to play worse then what? New coaches? New coaches then new systems again? New systems then new players again? Even though I like Flynn, he aint worth all that when we can just roll with Palmer.
RaiderBones
Footballguy
I would think that if the Raiders would trade for Flynn they might try swapping picks in the 3rd round possibly. Also if the Raiders did trade for Flynn I would be shocked if they didn't get him to restructure his contract for this year to lower his cap number closer to $1.5 - $2 million dollars.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Does not look likely we will have Carson back.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Unless he wants to be a backup, how could he possibly hope to play for a contender? Any real contender already has a QB, not to mention he's no longer fit to lead a team to a Super Bowl.ETA: I guess you could argue the Arizona with their weapons in the passing game and a solid defense could be contenders with good QB play, but being in a division with two of the best teams in the league it's a tough road to haul.
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ICON211
Footballguy
Maybe contender is not the right word to use. He probably just wants to go somewhere he feels at least has a shot to compete in games and maybe has an outside playoff shot. Some teams turn it around quick in today's NFL and outside of the Raiders and the Jags I would not count anyone out before the season starts. At this point it looks like the Raiders could be historically bad.'Dr. Octopus said:
Garrett
Footballguy
I would not be completely shocked if that shot Palmer took to the ribs near the end of the season while battling for a team completely out of playoff contention is not lingering in his mind a bit.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Link to Mike Silver's article.
In terms of any additional cap hit the article states:
There are no roster bonuses or other pending payments due to Palmer that would trigger any sort of deadline, and the team has not yet threatened to release him should he decline to accept the pay cut.
This might be a clue as to the Raider's strategy: hold Palmer and try to make a draft day deal to get compensation. The Cards seem like the most likely suitor and any kind of compensation is better than simply letting Palmer walk. What I find humorous is anyone thinking the AZ situation is preferable. I would be very surprised if Palmer lasted an entire season behind the Cards current Oline.
Another interesting snippet in Silver's article:
As Oakland heads into coach Dennis Allen's second season, Palmer isn't the only one unimpressed by the team's direction. A document comparing the Raiders' rebuilding efforts to those of the Indianapolis Colts — one originating from a frustrated employee inside the team's Alameda training facility, and obtained by Y! Sports — did not reflect favorably upon McKenzie and Allen.
Among the cited similarities between the two organizations heading into the 2012 season: Each team hired a first-time general manager and a first-time head coach who had previously been a defensive coordinator. Each had to contend with severe salary-cap issues and more "dead money" than any of their other NFL counterparts. Both started quarterbacks picked first overall (Oakland's Palmer in 2003, Indy's Andrew Luck in 2012) who were learning a new offensive system. And both replaced their starting cornerbacks and center from the previous season, lacked a 1,000-yard rusher in 2012 and featured rosters devoid of any of their first-round selections from the 2004-08 drafts.
Great, besides the gloomy prospects next year, Reggie has to deal with in house back stabbing.
In terms of any additional cap hit the article states:
There are no roster bonuses or other pending payments due to Palmer that would trigger any sort of deadline, and the team has not yet threatened to release him should he decline to accept the pay cut.
This might be a clue as to the Raider's strategy: hold Palmer and try to make a draft day deal to get compensation. The Cards seem like the most likely suitor and any kind of compensation is better than simply letting Palmer walk. What I find humorous is anyone thinking the AZ situation is preferable. I would be very surprised if Palmer lasted an entire season behind the Cards current Oline.
Another interesting snippet in Silver's article:
As Oakland heads into coach Dennis Allen's second season, Palmer isn't the only one unimpressed by the team's direction. A document comparing the Raiders' rebuilding efforts to those of the Indianapolis Colts — one originating from a frustrated employee inside the team's Alameda training facility, and obtained by Y! Sports — did not reflect favorably upon McKenzie and Allen.
Among the cited similarities between the two organizations heading into the 2012 season: Each team hired a first-time general manager and a first-time head coach who had previously been a defensive coordinator. Each had to contend with severe salary-cap issues and more "dead money" than any of their other NFL counterparts. Both started quarterbacks picked first overall (Oakland's Palmer in 2003, Indy's Andrew Luck in 2012) who were learning a new offensive system. And both replaced their starting cornerbacks and center from the previous season, lacked a 1,000-yard rusher in 2012 and featured rosters devoid of any of their first-round selections from the 2004-08 drafts.
Great, besides the gloomy prospects next year, Reggie has to deal with in house back stabbing.
RaiderBones
Footballguy
This article can't seriously be comparing Palmer to Luck. I would even go out on a limb and say if we had Luck and Colts had Palmer last year, things would be much different. Luck>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Palmer.
ICON211
Footballguy
Arizona has Larry Fitzgerald and a new coaching staff that might be able to fix their offensive line not to mention a roster that has not been completely gutted. It pains me to say it, but for the short term the Raiders are in probably the worst shape of any team in the league.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Bolded to help clarify where the comparison is originating.
UnknownCoach
Footballguy
Its fair to compare our direction to the Colts because both teams gutted their rosters and gave up on their veterans even though there was still potential on the team. Both teams were looking to compete in 2011 until their QB was injured. The Colts did one thing right. They decided to do their makeover when they had the number one pick in the draft and one of the best QB prospects of the decade was available. Another difference is they didnt make any real effort to bring in a competative QB after Manning was lost for the season. We traded our first round pick for Palmer which only makes sense if you dont gut the team.
Of course it wasnt Reggie who traded for Palmer and it is Reggie who is gutting the team. Had Hue Jackson stayed then the Palmer trade would have made a lot more sense. The first decision Reggie made was to can Hue. Then he chose to only make a half effort to compete in 2012 and only half an effort to rebuild that year. After a bad year he's now at least making a full effort to rebuild with little effort to compete in 2013. This year we do have a high first round pick. So its like we are a year behind Indy but also we dont have the the luxery of a talent like Luck availabe to draft.
Its comparable how the teams are being gutted of veterans and starting from scratch. Especially true if we draft Smith. Indy had a better team with Manning and then did a more decisive faster rebuild at a more favorable time. We werent as good and then did a less decisive slower rebuild (largely because of Al's midseason death) at a less favorable time.
Of course it wasnt Reggie who traded for Palmer and it is Reggie who is gutting the team. Had Hue Jackson stayed then the Palmer trade would have made a lot more sense. The first decision Reggie made was to can Hue. Then he chose to only make a half effort to compete in 2012 and only half an effort to rebuild that year. After a bad year he's now at least making a full effort to rebuild with little effort to compete in 2013. This year we do have a high first round pick. So its like we are a year behind Indy but also we dont have the the luxery of a talent like Luck availabe to draft.
Its comparable how the teams are being gutted of veterans and starting from scratch. Especially true if we draft Smith. Indy had a better team with Manning and then did a more decisive faster rebuild at a more favorable time. We werent as good and then did a less decisive slower rebuild (largely because of Al's midseason death) at a less favorable time.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
No it's not. Colts were a perrenial playoff team for the last decade while the Raiders have been bottom feeders during the same stretch. The Colts lost their franchise QB and decided to tank the season for a chance at one in the ensuing draft. Their roster was much more talented and also didn't have the dead money and salary cap issues that the new regime that Reggie inherited. Night and day difference imo.
Silver & Black
Footballguy
For whatever its worth, I have heard a few interesting tidbits from a friend within the organization that I thought were worth letting everyone in on. None of this is gospel and my pal isn't part of the Raider inner circle. He's just part of the team and hears lots of things from being a fly on the wall etc..
Anyway, the one thing I can tell you is the overwhelming word is, Palmer is gone. Oakland is trying to work out the best possible exit strategy for themselves and will pull the trigger when they feel it is the right time for the organization. The feeling I get is they don't give a hoot about Palmers ability or chances to catch on somewhere else. Nothing Earth shattering here.
The second piece is a bit more interesting. I believe much of the people that matter in Oakland do in fact like Pryor. This feeling was made firmer with the success of Kaepernich and Wilson last year. That said, while the feeling for Pryor is generall warm and fuzzy, enough important people apparently feel he is simply not ready to take the reigns the way Wilson and Kaepernick did. As a result, I think the rumors you are hearing about Flynn are more accurate than you may think, and further, I believe Oakland will in fact obtain Flynn in the very near future. Again, timing appears to be the issue with all the rumours flying about Geno etc....
On a related note, and despite the general consensus...well just about everywhere, Oakland is not looking at 2013 as a lost season. They are taking appropriate steps and long overdue salary moves to help the team in the long run, but they are not prepared to look at 2013 as a total punt as mentioned by some in this thread recently. Right or wrong, good or bad, the scuttlebut is that they will absolutely focus the offense around McFadden in 2013. Power running game and lots and lots and lots of screen passes in space. They are going to set him up to succeed and try to keep him healthy (I know) and let him run where his talents are best suited. This is part of the reason they are going to trade for Flynn. He will be more of a game manager in the mold of Dilfer and Oakland believes he is good enough to keep defenses honest so McFadden can flourish. The sense is with Pryor at the healm, this simply won't happen.
Like I said, none of the above is definitive or concrete. I am just paraphrasing feelings my friend is picking up from bits and pieces of things he is hearing and from the feeling he is getting from the team.
Anyway, it's fun to talk about. I am very curious to see how things pan out.
Anyway, the one thing I can tell you is the overwhelming word is, Palmer is gone. Oakland is trying to work out the best possible exit strategy for themselves and will pull the trigger when they feel it is the right time for the organization. The feeling I get is they don't give a hoot about Palmers ability or chances to catch on somewhere else. Nothing Earth shattering here.
The second piece is a bit more interesting. I believe much of the people that matter in Oakland do in fact like Pryor. This feeling was made firmer with the success of Kaepernich and Wilson last year. That said, while the feeling for Pryor is generall warm and fuzzy, enough important people apparently feel he is simply not ready to take the reigns the way Wilson and Kaepernick did. As a result, I think the rumors you are hearing about Flynn are more accurate than you may think, and further, I believe Oakland will in fact obtain Flynn in the very near future. Again, timing appears to be the issue with all the rumours flying about Geno etc....
On a related note, and despite the general consensus...well just about everywhere, Oakland is not looking at 2013 as a lost season. They are taking appropriate steps and long overdue salary moves to help the team in the long run, but they are not prepared to look at 2013 as a total punt as mentioned by some in this thread recently. Right or wrong, good or bad, the scuttlebut is that they will absolutely focus the offense around McFadden in 2013. Power running game and lots and lots and lots of screen passes in space. They are going to set him up to succeed and try to keep him healthy (I know) and let him run where his talents are best suited. This is part of the reason they are going to trade for Flynn. He will be more of a game manager in the mold of Dilfer and Oakland believes he is good enough to keep defenses honest so McFadden can flourish. The sense is with Pryor at the healm, this simply won't happen.
Like I said, none of the above is definitive or concrete. I am just paraphrasing feelings my friend is picking up from bits and pieces of things he is hearing and from the feeling he is getting from the team.
Anyway, it's fun to talk about. I am very curious to see how things pan out.
RaiderBones
Footballguy
Thanks for the info Silver & Black.
This is interesting info indeed. Now there are rumors that the Seahawks are in discussions to trade Flynn and a trade is imminent. The team is not yet known. information via Ed Werder from Twitter. I can say for certain that this has been an interesting offseason so far.
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RaiderBones
Footballguy
Jason La Canfora@JasonLaCanfora2m
Sounds like Matt Flynn heading to Oakland via trade, and Carson Palmer will be on his way out (possibly to AZ). trying to nail down details
If this is true the Palmer saga could be over soon.
Sounds like Matt Flynn heading to Oakland via trade, and Carson Palmer will be on his way out (possibly to AZ). trying to nail down details
If this is true the Palmer saga could be over soon.
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ICON211
Footballguy
Assuming we don't have to give up too much to get him I am a big fan of this move.
RaiderBones
Footballguy
Yes me too, I am interested to see what the compensation is.
texasbirdfan
Footballguy
any recent reports/ links on Pryor working out at Raiders facility or elsewhere this off-season?? Considering taking a flyer on him on our dynasty rookie/ free agent draft in May....
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RaiderBones
Footballguy
Albert Breer@AlbertBreer5m
The Seahawks and Raiders have in fact agreed to draft-pick compensation on a tentative trade to send Matt Flynn to Oakland. Deal's close.
The Seahawks and Raiders have in fact agreed to draft-pick compensation on a tentative trade to send Matt Flynn to Oakland. Deal's close.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
WHo would you rather see on the roster, Kolb or Flynn?
