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2013 Off Season Dynasty Trade Thread (for completed trades) (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter squistion
- Start date
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
I don't understand how you take a deal like that in good conscience. It was a horrible, insulting, and lame offer that you sent, and he countered with a deal just as bad. Its like stealing the basketball from the special kid in gym class. Aren't you worried about how it will effect the league? Unless this is some crazy big money league where the money is so large that it trumps the morals, league integrity should always be everyone's #1 priority if they really enjoy the hobby and their league.
I don't believe in vetos. But if I were the Commish in that league, I'd give serious thought to citing the ambiguous clause in the by-laws giving the Commish power to protect the league's integrity, reverse the trade, and boot the other guy. And seriously reprimand you for putting myself and the league as a whole in such a position while taking advantage of someone who obviously doesn't know what they're doing.
Its embarrassing and it doesn't speak well of you as an owner. The other guy either, of course.
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ItsOnlytheRiver
Footballguy
Nothing to add I just wanted to say great post. I wish more owners will think about offering fair deals and not blatant ripoffs for top tier studs
The_Head_Ape
Footballguy
10 team start 2QB, 2RB, 4WR
Eli Manning
Pierre Garcon
Gio Bernard
Mario Manningham
For
Andrew Luck
Eli Manning
Pierre Garcon
Gio Bernard
Mario Manningham
For
Andrew Luck
Thanks for the feedback, but think you are a little over the top when I look at the rankings of this site and another that I use. I always go for quality over quantity but I know that others do not feel the same. Obviously, I like the Green side better but neither Brown nor Welker are trash. They are decent WR2s and Gresham is a low end TE1 or high TE2. Randle is an unknown rookie and some owners love to take a chance on rookies. It takes two to tango and there is no collusion in this deal...way over the top to say this puts league integrity at risk. Assuming that we will have to agree to disagree on this based on the venom in the responses.
BTW...the other owner was #3 in points last year so he obviously has a clue what he doing.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
So in your own words, at best, you gave a WR2, a TE2, and a 5th round rookie for a 1st round start-up pick.
Keep on explaining it away to yourself. This absolutely damages league competitiveness and integrity.
There is no uproar in league chat or on the league messageboard? Has the Commish not made a peep about this? Are you the Commish?
msudaisy26
Footballguy
As I said...some players take quantity over quality. I have seen worse trades in this league over the years and the commishs have been consistent in letting teams manage their teams as they see fit. I am not one of the commishs by the way. Thus far there have been no complaints about the deal as the commishs have established that trades only get overturned if collusion is apparent.
What if the commish overturns the deal and Green tears his ACL in camp? The other owner will be furious as he wanted this deal...I accepted his offer. It is not the commish's job to protect owners from themselves. While I might appear to win this trade on paper right now, actual results might prove otherwise down the road.
Feel free to judge me, call me immoral or whatever you would like. I know that I operate in good faith and can't get upset over your opinion.
What if the commish overturns the deal and Green tears his ACL in camp? The other owner will be furious as he wanted this deal...I accepted his offer. It is not the commish's job to protect owners from themselves. While I might appear to win this trade on paper right now, actual results might prove otherwise down the road.
Feel free to judge me, call me immoral or whatever you would like. I know that I operate in good faith and can't get upset over your opinion.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Green could tear both of his ACL's and lose his right pointer finger in a freak Sawzall accident sustained while renovating his weed greenhouse and he'd still be worth more than this.
If no one in your league has even mentioned how poor this trade is in the league chat, assuming they've been online and seen it, then its safe to say that no one cares about that league. Which would explain why you don't.
Harsh, maybe, but I think most here would agree. Nobody clicks accept on an offer like this and thinks "this will be great for all involved--I don't feel guilty at all!"
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Whatever...thanks for your opinion...not going to get into some personal pissing match with you.
cstu
Footballguy
There's nothing more irritating than when an owner tries to justify how a ripoff trade wasn't that bad for the other owner.
Moot point how he finished last year, does not establish FF acumen. And accepting this trade verifies the exact opposite.
Would love to see a link to this league to see what other trades go through, etc. Please post a link. TIA.
Donsmith753
Footballguy
I'm going to speculate that he finished 3rd in total points last year because he had AJ ####### Green
Andrew74
Footballguy
This is one of those few veto worthy trades. Green would have to die to make this in the other guy's favor.
ItsOnlytheRiver
Footballguy
Agree to disagree 
Yes, with everyone. Welker and Brown aren't anywhere close to Green and the other two pieces are garbage. Would love a link. I'm guessing we don't get one.
Yes, with everyone. Welker and Brown aren't anywhere close to Green and the other two pieces are garbage. Would love a link. I'm guessing we don't get one.
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
If AJ Green tore his ACL today in the most horrific way imaginable, I wouldnt trade him for that.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Honestly, what worse deal have you seen?? I am going to shortly update my sig..............this is the new worst deal ever.
And the bolded is absolutely MEANINGLESS in a trade.
I could trade AJ Green, Julio JOnes, and Jimmy Graham for three 5th round rookie picks in 2014. It is POSSIBLE those picks end up better than those players. Does it make it a good trade???? Ummmmm, no, it would still be the most idiotic deal imaginable, regardless of how it turns out.
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I'm the Ray Rice owner, guy I traded with owns Frank Gore. 14 teamer. 1 pt PPR (its a Superflex 1-2 QB but doesn't make much difference to this deal!)
Gave:
Hunter, 2014 2nd (in the 2.05 to 2.09 range) and my 2014 3rd (I think in the 3.08 to 3.11 range) - it's a 14 team league and I'm pretty strong but not yet a contender.
Received
Pierce, 2014 2nd (in the 2.01 to 2.04 range)
Gave:
Hunter, 2014 2nd (in the 2.05 to 2.09 range) and my 2014 3rd (I think in the 3.08 to 3.11 range) - it's a 14 team league and I'm pretty strong but not yet a contender.
Received
Pierce, 2014 2nd (in the 2.01 to 2.04 range)
Lucky Dolfan 81
Footballguy
Haha, this is terrible. Looks like the other owner got Jermaine Gresham confused with Jimmy Graham
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
He still is. Getting Greschem and a handcuff is not a good reason to seriously downgrade at WR. I'm sure he could have snagged Greschem and Randle from you for far less than that. Weird.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
What is he supposed to do? He's not cheating and it's not his job to take care of the other guys roster.
It's not veto worthy, as it's not cheating. As an owner, his goal is to make his team the best it can be, which includs winning every potential deal by as much as he can.
If someone sends me that deal, I'm taking it. As it wasn't collusion, I'd be pretty pissed if the commish considered vetoing it.
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
I'm with you. You did nothing wrong. At all. You did your job as an owner.
It was a horrible trade for the other guy, and a great one for you. I don't see why you need to apologize for, or justify that.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Maybe because I'm a Commish or co-Commish across a few different leagues I have a different POV. But my largest priority in every league, even those in which I'm just a plain old vanilla owner with no responsibilities whatsoever beyond my own roster, is upholding league integrity.
Why? Because I love this hobby, and I really enjoy my leagues. I've put a huge amount of time into my leagues. Too much, maybe. But that's probably true for anyone in the Shark Pool in July. I've put too much time into drafting, bidding, looking over rosters, trading, emailing about trades, chatting in the league chat, pouring over possible starting lineups, getting jittery on Sundays as the clock ticks down. Too much time and investment to risk a league folding, or eventually folding, over a moment where I decided to take clear, egregious advantage of a complete and utter moron. My leagues staying in existence and staying enjoyable, justifying the time I've spent in them, are of utmost importance to me, especially since I share many dynasty leagues with a bunch of the same owners.
I reject this offer and send back a note saying that I can't take that deal in good conscience, and that Green is worth a TON more. I tell him I think stealing Green for that wold unbalance the league in an unfair way, and hope that it sinks in rather than making him take a similarly bad offer to someone else.
Why? Because I love this hobby, and I really enjoy my leagues. I've put a huge amount of time into my leagues. Too much, maybe. But that's probably true for anyone in the Shark Pool in July. I've put too much time into drafting, bidding, looking over rosters, trading, emailing about trades, chatting in the league chat, pouring over possible starting lineups, getting jittery on Sundays as the clock ticks down. Too much time and investment to risk a league folding, or eventually folding, over a moment where I decided to take clear, egregious advantage of a complete and utter moron. My leagues staying in existence and staying enjoyable, justifying the time I've spent in them, are of utmost importance to me, especially since I share many dynasty leagues with a bunch of the same owners.
I reject this offer and send back a note saying that I can't take that deal in good conscience, and that Green is worth a TON more. I tell him I think stealing Green for that wold unbalance the league in an unfair way, and hope that it sinks in rather than making him take a similarly bad offer to someone else.
squistion
Footballguy
So the ends justify the means? Sorry, that doesn't fit with my personal ethics. If it is fine with you OK, but trade rape of people who really don't belong in dynasty leagues I don't find acceptable - obviously you don't feel the same way. Personally and this just my opinion, I thought this was most one sided unfair trade in the 139 pages of this thread and should be vetoed by the Commish of that league.
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
[SIZE=medium]What if an owner felt that Robert Woods was the best player in the rookie draft and took him with the 1.01? Would you stop the draft and tell him no; that he needed to pick a player that you felt would better balance the league? Is it your job to tell him that he is wrong in his valuation? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]League integrity is not based on parity. If you want parity, start a cap or keeper league. If an owner is better or worse than his peers, he or shee will separate from the pack, in either direction. It is not the commissioners job to prevent that. That is not what league integrity is about. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]I certainly wouldn’t be in a league with a commission that felt it was his or her job to maintain parity. It’s not. [/SIZE]
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
That is the point of the hobby - to win and lose based on your valuations and resulting actions.
I think the trade was lopsided and am not surprised that everyone else does too. But the only opinion that matters is the owner pulling the trigger. The other guy thinks that he is helping his team and it is nobody's place to tell him that he's wrong.
Where do we draw the line, otherwise? Whose rankings do we use? How "fair" does a trade have to be in order to process?
Nobody cheated and the owner getting Green did what he SHOULD do. That is maintaining league integrity - trying to make your team better. That's all he did.
ETA: The guy finished 3rd in points last year. It's a bit early to say he doesn't belong in a dynasty league, in my opinion. If he proves that he deosn't belong, I would understand the league taking action. But I don't think one trade, after a solid season, is proof of that.
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cstu
Footballguy
A large part of league integrity is the belief your fellow owners know what they are doing. I don't see how trading a top 5 dynasty player for a WR2 with little upside, a TE2 (if lucky) and a backup RB conveys any sort of knowledge. That the league isn't upset by it is also a comment on the quality of the league.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
[SIZE=10.5pt]I agree. I like being in leagues with guys I consider good owners too. IF this owner proves that he isn't a good owner, I think it's reasonable to consider replacing him. But I think you need more than one trade to establish that, especially as he was a top 3 team last year.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I am not suggesting that this isn't an awful trade; I think it is. I am suggesting that it's not the commissioner’s place to veto because there was no collusion. And it’s not any owners responsibility to look out for his trading partner’s roster. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]If I were in this league, I'd grumble too. But if every trade that I thought was lopsided and thought to myself "WTF was owner X thinking?!" - there would be mutiple blocked trades in every season, every year. [/SIZE]
Again - where do we draw the line? There HAS to be a measurable standard.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I know in the Sharkpool we all fall into the "groupthink" mentality and while I agree this was a horrible trade for the guy moving Green, I think we're getting a little too worked up over nothing.
That trade isn't going to kill that league. AJ Green is a golden child of hardcore dynasty leaguers, but do we really expect that he's going to outscore Antonio Brown by THAT much? - I mean Brown is the top target on a better passing attack, even if his talent level doesn't sniff Green's.
ETA: The Pittsburgh Steelers an organization that generally knows what it is doing did sign Brown to a rather nice contract while letting Mike Wallace walk. It seems they think that Brown will be productive for their team.
And what if DeMarco Murray goes down (and does anyone think he's not going to) and Joseph Randle saves that guys season?
Bad trades happen. They usually don't kill a league. At worst it will set one team back a bit for a while.
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ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
You're acting as if this is a grey area. Robert Woods over Tavon/Gio/Lacy/whoever is a grey area. It wouldn't be smart to take Woods without taking literally anything to trade back a bit first, but it's still a grey area.
This A.J. Green deal is not a grey area.
I understand you're trying to make a point. But there is a line, and a Commish has to keep an eye out for the rare case that crosses that line.
If you don't agree that's fine. But this is obviously an extreme circumstance. This type of deal puts the league more at risk than the Commish taking a rare step into dictator category to protect the future (and present) of the league.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
How do we define said "line"? And you would have to define it; it would have to be measurable. Next time there is a trade that the league owners don't agree with, they'll be knocking on the commish's door, telling him to veto it.ConnSKINS26 said:
Brown and Gresham are 25. Randle is 21. If the owner thinks Brown is a top 10 WR as the #1 guy, that Randle will be starting by the end of the season and a top 10 RB, and that Gresham continues to improve on his numbers and is a top 5 dynasty TE - who are we to tell him that he's wrong?
Can we at least wait for the owner to be proven wrong before we grab our pitchforks? We would have been up in arms had an owner traded Jermichael Finley for Gronk a few years ago. Or Forte for Morris. Or Romo for Kaepernick. Or Ingram for Murray. Or DeSean for M. Wallace. EBF caught flack for trading Nicks for D.Thomas THIS season! The hobby was wrong, and often is.
Just my opinion and thoughts on the matter.
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
Jeremy
Footballguy
We all see lopsided deals in our dynasty leagues that makes us 
, but these kinds of deals threaten the league. If I'm one of the other owners not involved in that deal, I might be thinking..."screw this. I'm going to find a more competitive league". If it was a one time thing in a league I've participated in for a while and it hadn't happened before, maybe not. But nobody joins a dynasty league (or any league) hoping to play with people who don't know what they're doing, unless you're in it for the money.
, but these kinds of deals threaten the league. If I'm one of the other owners not involved in that deal, I might be thinking..."screw this. I'm going to find a more competitive league". If it was a one time thing in a league I've participated in for a while and it hadn't happened before, maybe not. But nobody joins a dynasty league (or any league) hoping to play with people who don't know what they're doing, unless you're in it for the money.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
It's an awful trade, in my opinion. Awful trades happen. If others want a league in which awful trades (based on their opinion) are vetoed, then who am I to say they are wrong? Everyone will have different opinions on how a league should be run.
I wouldn't play in said league, however. In my opinion, trades should be vetoed when there is collusion, and only when there is collusion.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
It doesn't matter if he turns out, somehow, to be correct. It's not the outcome, right? It's the process. This is bad process. Incredibly bad.
You wait for him to "prove" it's a bad move, he drags the league down further.
I believe a strong league has a strong Commish...who rarely has to do anything but point to the by-laws and set up the league calendar. Very, very rarely.
But in that extreme case, the Commish has to be able to step in.
Who cares exactly where the line is, if this flies a hundred miles past it? I don't play in leagues with whiners who would run to the Commish every time they didn't like a deal. They're smart enough, as a group, to realize the special category something like this falls into.
But I realize every league is different, and so this might be a step down the slippery slope in many leagues.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Exactly. It cheapens the time everyone else puts into a league, to see a trade like this go down. THAT'S why it can be a league killer. Not because the league will immediately fold, but because owners will lose interest in a league where their own hard work isn't proportionally rewarded.We all see lopsided deals in our dynasty leagues that makes us
Concept Coop
Footballguy
My last post on the matter (sorry to beat a dead horse...again):
Per target production:
Player A: 0.57 Rec/ 8.6 Yrds/0.06 TD - 280 Targets (26.9% of team's targets)
Player B: 0.58 Rec/ 8.2 Yrds/0.03 TD - 230 Targets (20.8% of teams' targets)*
Player B is now the #1 option on his team (hasn't been), was signed to a longterm $40mil contract, and is expected to see an increase in targets.
I'm playing devil's advocate. But you have to when evaluating each trade for a potential veto. This guy thinks he is helping his team. It should take a lot to tell him that he is wrong and doesn't have the right to make a deal he thinks is in his best interest. Brown has done enough for a reasonable mind to conclude that he will improve his production greatly with additional looks.
* Starting QB missed 4 games, played hurt in others. Backups: Charlie Batch, Byron Leftwitch
Per target production:
Player A: 0.57 Rec/ 8.6 Yrds/0.06 TD - 280 Targets (26.9% of team's targets)
Player B: 0.58 Rec/ 8.2 Yrds/0.03 TD - 230 Targets (20.8% of teams' targets)*
Player B is now the #1 option on his team (hasn't been), was signed to a longterm $40mil contract, and is expected to see an increase in targets.
I'm playing devil's advocate. But you have to when evaluating each trade for a potential veto. This guy thinks he is helping his team. It should take a lot to tell him that he is wrong and doesn't have the right to make a deal he thinks is in his best interest. Brown has done enough for a reasonable mind to conclude that he will improve his production greatly with additional looks.
* Starting QB missed 4 games, played hurt in others. Backups: Charlie Batch, Byron Leftwitch
5Rings
Lurker
Agreed. I think have three options, 1 Keep your young studs to build around, 2 sell CJ/Shady if you get a huge offer, or 3 make this trade and pick 1st for the foreseeable future. You are not getting close to enough in return to make this deal.
After things started to get personal, I was going to just leave this conversation, but appreciate the fact the CC helped me to articulate the arguments that I was not so effective at making.
Do I think I win this trade?...yes...big time win?...likely
Would I make this deal backwards?...no...I obviously like the Green side and feel it helps my team. Trades are a matter of personal evaluation and judgement. I'd be shocked if you never sent a feeler offer to another owner and had them say WTF (even if you thought or it was a completely fair offer). They will value players different than you...which is what really makes dynasty leagues interesting in my opinion.
As an update, no one has objected to the trade and one owner chatted "wow, nice trade guys" (perhaps sarcastically...who knows). The other party in the trade replied back "yeah, good trade for us. I might have been able to get a little more, but Brown is a very solid WR, Randle backs up the mighty fragile Murray and I need a TE because my TE is a murderer. Green - stud"
As CC stated, when there is no collusion where do you draw the line? The line might be different for every owner in the league. I've watched a number of trades go down in this league over the past 10 years that I said WTF to, but none have brought the league down like you are suggesting. An overbearing Commish can be just as bad as a more hands-off one depending on the expectations of the league owners. The owners in this league have proven that they want freedom with their rosters and the league has not had much turnover at all in the past 10 years.
Can understand and appreciate your comments, but stand by my opinion that I did nothing wrong in accepting an offer presented to me by another competent owner who has been in the league for many years. Perhaps you are the better man and would truly turn down the offer if given to you as you noted in your hypothetical scenario. More power to you...I will improve my team if offered the opportunity and I'm sure many of the other commenters would as well despite their holier than thou attitudes on this thread.
Do I think I win this trade?...yes...big time win?...likely
Would I make this deal backwards?...no...I obviously like the Green side and feel it helps my team. Trades are a matter of personal evaluation and judgement. I'd be shocked if you never sent a feeler offer to another owner and had them say WTF (even if you thought or it was a completely fair offer). They will value players different than you...which is what really makes dynasty leagues interesting in my opinion.
As an update, no one has objected to the trade and one owner chatted "wow, nice trade guys" (perhaps sarcastically...who knows). The other party in the trade replied back "yeah, good trade for us. I might have been able to get a little more, but Brown is a very solid WR, Randle backs up the mighty fragile Murray and I need a TE because my TE is a murderer. Green - stud"
As CC stated, when there is no collusion where do you draw the line? The line might be different for every owner in the league. I've watched a number of trades go down in this league over the past 10 years that I said WTF to, but none have brought the league down like you are suggesting. An overbearing Commish can be just as bad as a more hands-off one depending on the expectations of the league owners. The owners in this league have proven that they want freedom with their rosters and the league has not had much turnover at all in the past 10 years.
Can understand and appreciate your comments, but stand by my opinion that I did nothing wrong in accepting an offer presented to me by another competent owner who has been in the league for many years. Perhaps you are the better man and would truly turn down the offer if given to you as you noted in your hypothetical scenario. More power to you...I will improve my team if offered the opportunity and I'm sure many of the other commenters would as well despite their holier than thou attitudes on this thread.
I think it's completely lopsided, but what I don't really get is posting the the trade. I use this thread to help gauge market value, as many others do. Your trade was not representative of market value at all, and based on your comments, you know it.
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Just getting a feel for other's views of the deal.
Frankly, I thought it was a win for me but didn't expect it others to view it so strongly. I must like Brown more than others...I see several services that have him between WR15-20 in dynasty given his age and favorable situation. No doubt that Green is a stud.
My last post that you quoted shows a skew of my opinion after seeing the other opinions on this thread.
Didn't expect it to blow up into a debate like this...
Frankly, I thought it was a win for me but didn't expect it others to view it so strongly. I must like Brown more than others...I see several services that have him between WR15-20 in dynasty given his age and favorable situation. No doubt that Green is a stud.
My last post that you quoted shows a skew of my opinion after seeing the other opinions on this thread.
Didn't expect it to blow up into a debate like this...
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First, you know it was an obvious steal of a top 5 dynasty player on your part. Second and most important to me is I don't even know how this type trade is offered in any league. Be it a "feeler" type deal or a serious offer. How can you make any offer for a top dynasty guy and in good conscious not include one in the offer?
I have Calvin and I get offers like Freeman, Pierce, Housler, Broyles and 4 2nd round picks offered for him. I counter for Dez plus and get asked, Am I serious? IMO, Dez would have to be included to even consider Calvin. Some owners really want something for nothing.
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Dez
Footballguy
There have been some pretty awful trades in some of my leagues but it is really hard to veto anything in fact even with the worst trades in the world I once had people saying a trade needed to be overturned and the guy who bad the "bad" side of the trade said he was going to quit if it was overturned. I had a person quit my league over a trade in 2010. I have seen 3rd string RB's that have never done a thing in the world like Karim traded for a future 1st and more when that future 1st was going to be a lock to be Trent Richardson the next year.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
It only BLEW UP because you tried to justify the deal as being "fair". It's not fair. It's the new worst deal of the offseason. Really, trades like this shouldnt be posted.
If I deal Ben Tate for Doug martin in a league, I wont be posting it here.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
ItsOnlytheRiver
Footballguy
Of course you like Brown more than others. He was on your roster. I know exactly the type of owner you are based on the offer you sent him.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Ryheaps! You owe us all a hand written apology for what you did to us! How dare you? You ripped that poor guy off, tricked him into making an offer he didn't want to, then came here to brag and rub it in our faces! What kind of person are you?!
This place can get silly sometimes. (Not that I haven't contributed.)
This place can get silly sometimes. (Not that I haven't contributed.)
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