2015 ACC Basketball - CLOSED (use 2016 thread now) (1 Viewer)

[oso diablo]

don't discount the "dumb as mud" angle.

 

[pantherclub]

is tobias real life?

 

[oso diablo]

NYT article on UNC report. Story focuses mostly on the football program. Some pretty damning stuff toward the bottom about the football part.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Absolutely no surprise to me that football is the main culprit. Honestly, although maybe not to this degree, that happens at lots of big time football programs. I'm sure they cross the line way more than big time basketball programs. It make sense due to the entry rules of the NFL vs. NBA. For quite a while, the NBA would take kids right from HS, and now they just have to stay eligible for basically one semester. The NFL requires three years. So it stands to reason that the football programs need a lot more help/cheating to keep their players eligible.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

And if anyone sees PantherClub, tell him I'm still laughing.

 

[pantherclub]

And if anyone sees PantherClub, tell him I'm still laughing.

unpack this a bit for me please

 

[omally]

Absolutely no surprise to me that football is the main culprit. Honestly, although maybe not to this degree, that happens at lots of big time football programs. I'm sure they cross the line way more than big time basketball programs. It make sense due to the entry rules of the NFL vs. NBA. For quite a while, the NBA would take kids right from HS, and now they just have to stay eligible for basically one semester. The NFL requires three years. So it stands to reason that the football programs need a lot more help/cheating to keep their players eligible.

Football also has a lot more players on a team versus other sports such as basketball, therefore more players from football would be involved.

 

[Premier]

Man UNC is going to get torpedoed. wow.

 

[Aerial Assault]

Man UNC is going to get torpedoed. wow.

Noooooo. The report contains nothing, nothing I tell you! It's all just conjecture and hearsay and speculation, and most importantly, it absolutely does NOT involve the basketball team in, let's call them, 1993, (for example) 2005, or (say) 2009.

 

[TLEF316]

This idea that Wayne Walden (who Roy brought with him from KU to be the head academic guy for the UNC program) knew about the paper classes and steered players towards them (admitted in the report) but didn't tell Roy is totally absurd. If he "didn't know" its because he made it very clear that he didn't want to know.

When asked about whether he ever told Roy that Crowder was grading papers, he said he "didn't recall ever telling him that". That's very clearly code for "I don't want to get caught in a lie and there's zero upside to telling the truth". (if the truth is that Roy knew).

As I've been saying for like the past year, its pretty clear that UNC's basketball program will never face any significant punishment for whatever happened. And even if they did, it won't change the fact that they won the games on the court.

i absolutely believe that the 05 title is a complete and total sham. Considering that Tyler Hansbrough can barely read English but claims to have taken Swahili classes, the 09 title probably is as well. But even that's the case, they're not the first dirty title teams in NCAA history and they certainly wont be the last. The argument that UNC fans are making (everyone does it. We just got caught) is pretty much nonsense. Athletes at every big time program in America are being given extra help and nudged towards easier majors and schedules. But I refuse to believe that other schools went as far as UNC did with the AFAM program. To think that that's the case is just crazy.

 

[Aerial Assault]

Agree that basically nothing will happen to UNC over this, and mortal lock certainty that nothing will happen to the basketball team. Even though quite a bit should.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Absolutely no surprise to me that football is the main culprit. Honestly, although maybe not to this degree, that happens at lots of big time football programs. I'm sure they cross the line way more than big time basketball programs. It make sense due to the entry rules of the NFL vs. NBA. For quite a while, the NBA would take kids right from HS, and now they just have to stay eligible for basically one semester. The NFL requires three years. So it stands to reason that the football programs need a lot more help/cheating to keep their players eligible.

Football also has a lot more players on a team versus other sports such as basketball, therefore more players from football would be involved.

I didn't feel the need to mention that in my opinion I accounted for that already. But thanks.

 

[omally]

Absolutely no surprise to me that football is the main culprit. Honestly, although maybe not to this degree, that happens at lots of big time football programs. I'm sure they cross the line way more than big time basketball programs. It make sense due to the entry rules of the NFL vs. NBA. For quite a while, the NBA would take kids right from HS, and now they just have to stay eligible for basically one semester. The NFL requires three years. So it stands to reason that the football programs need a lot more help/cheating to keep their players eligible.

Football also has a lot more players on a team versus other sports such as basketball, therefore more players from football would be involved.

I didn't feel the need to mention that in my opinion I accounted for that already. But thanks.

You obviously feel the need to be condescending.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

This idea that Wayne Walden (who Roy brought with him from KU to be the head academic guy for the UNC program) knew about the paper classes and steered players towards them (admitted in the report) but didn't tell Roy is totally absurd. If he "didn't know" its because he made it very clear that he didn't want to know.

When asked about whether he ever told Roy that Crowder was grading papers, he said he "didn't recall ever telling him that". That's very clearly code for "I don't want to get caught in a lie and there's zero upside to telling the truth". (if the truth is that Roy knew).

As I've been saying for like the past year, its pretty clear that UNC's basketball program will never face any significant punishment for whatever happened. And even if they did, it won't change the fact that they won the games on the court.

i absolutely believe that the 05 title is a complete and total sham. Considering that Tyler Hansbrough can barely read English but claims to have taken Swahili classes, the 09 title probably is as well. But even that's the case, they're not the first dirty title teams in NCAA history and they certainly wont be the last. The argument that UNC fans are making (everyone does it. We just got caught) is pretty much nonsense. Athletes at every big time program in America are being given extra help and nudged towards easier majors and schedules. But I refuse to believe that other schools went as far as UNC did with the AFAM program. To think that that's the case is just crazy.

The "gap", for lack of a better word, between the two bolded statements is absolutely tremendous. If you think that all these big time SEC football players are just getting a little "extra help" or "nudge toward easier majors", then I believe you are out of touch with the inner workings of big time college athletics.

P.S. Notice that nowhere in this post do I say that they have complete departments with mostly fake classes. Even SEC football programs are like "Damn, why didn't we think of that?!?"

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Absolutely no surprise to me that football is the main culprit. Honestly, although maybe not to this degree, that happens at lots of big time football programs. I'm sure they cross the line way more than big time basketball programs. It make sense due to the entry rules of the NFL vs. NBA. For quite a while, the NBA would take kids right from HS, and now they just have to stay eligible for basically one semester. The NFL requires three years. So it stands to reason that the football programs need a lot more help/cheating to keep their players eligible.

Football also has a lot more players on a team versus other sports such as basketball, therefore more players from football would be involved.

I didn't feel the need to mention that in my opinion I accounted for that already. But thanks.

You obviously feel the need to be condescending.

Well, you'd have to think I was pretty dumb not to account for the fact that there are around 90-100 football players on a team while there are only 12-15 basketball players on a team and that there would an absolute difference in numbers based on that discrepency.

So really, you were being condescending toward me.

 

[Tau837]

For those curious about the Wainstein repor on the UNC Afro-Am scandal, my admittedly biased take: while the university takes further hits, the men's basketball program comes out smelling like roses

 

[Tau837]

UNC report forces school to face truth about its culture of cheating

For years, as the revelations accumulated and no fewer than six other reports were filed, North Carolina refused to look honestly at itself and acknowledge what it saw.


Today, the school can squirm away from the truth no more. Wainstein’s report provided a devastating house of mirrors for UNC to gaze into. The loud-and-proud claims to being a special place, capable of both athletic and academic success without cutting corners, are now hollow.

North Carolina spent many years operating like a lowest-common-denominator football/basketball factory. Regardless of whatever else comes from this thorough and painstaking investigation, that label sticks.

…

We can wait and see what results come from Indianapolis, but don’t hold your breath in anticipation of a deathblow for Carolina – especially Carolina basketball.

If anything, the school should react on its own to this report. Don’t wait for the NCAA to step in, do something yourself.

Now that UNC knows the independently reported facts, it can act. For years, its championship basketball teams were populated by players who benefitted from academic fraud – the 2005 national title team alone had 10 AFAM majors. If those titles were won with players who wouldn’t have been eligible without sham grades, take down the banners yourself. Take the hardware out of the trophy cases. Wear your shame.

For a school that long proclaimed to be a special place, that would be a start on restoring its integrity.

 

[Tau837]

NCAA's response to damning UNC report will define its future

It’s standard practice these days to mock the NCAA for its antiquated rules and haphazard enforcement of them, but the North Carolina report does not involve tattoos for memorabilia, free hotel stays or agent payments. It details systemic abuse of the one area the NCAA purportedly holds most dear. Its mission statement, according to president Mark Emmert, is “to be an integral part of higher education and to focus on the development of our student-athletes.” Those Enterprise rental car commercials, those “going pro in something other than sports” PSAs, the obsession with APR scores and Graduation Success Rates – all reinforce the NCAA’s stated-though-not-always-followed contention that academics are paramount to the college athlete’s experience.


So today, Emmert and the NCAA face a defining moment. What are they going to do about North Carolina? How do you appropriately reprimand a university whose employees spent 18 years making a mockery of higher education? Who put the competitive needs of athletics above the academic development of students? Who made “the most serious academic fraud violations in 20 years” — Clem Haskins’ 18 cheating basketball players — seem like child’s play when compared with the unfathomable scope of UNC’s “shadow curriculum.”

…

The NCAA has no choice but to deliver a stern punishment to North Carolina or risk losing all credibility whenever Emmert or its leaders talk big about the importance of academics. But what that punishment will be is anyone’s guess.

…

Maybe wins and trophies will be vacated. Maybe more postseason bans are in store. Maybe something more severe. There’s no blueprint.

Whatever the punishment, it has to effectively send the message that academics, more than anything else, cannot be compromised for the sake of athletics success. The cynics will say that already happens, that there’s jock majors and easy classes at every school. Maybe so, but we don’t know that.

We only know what happened at UNC. And if the NCAA does not demonstrate the extent of its disincentive, then it does risk what happened at UNC happening everywhere else.

 

[TobiasFunke]

This idea that Wayne Walden (who Roy brought with him from KU to be the head academic guy for the UNC program) knew about the paper classes and steered players towards them (admitted in the report) but didn't tell Roy is totally absurd. If he "didn't know" its because he made it very clear that he didn't want to know.

When asked about whether he ever told Roy that Crowder was grading papers, he said he "didn't recall ever telling him that". That's very clearly code for "I don't want to get caught in a lie and there's zero upside to telling the truth". (if the truth is that Roy knew).

As I've been saying for like the past year, its pretty clear that UNC's basketball program will never face any significant punishment for whatever happened. And even if they did, it won't change the fact that they won the games on the court.

i absolutely believe that the 05 title is a complete and total sham. Considering that Tyler Hansbrough can barely read English but claims to have taken Swahili classes, the 09 title probably is as well. But even that's the case, they're not the first dirty title teams in NCAA history and they certainly wont be the last. The argument that UNC fans are making (everyone does it. We just got caught) is pretty much nonsense. Athletes at every big time program in America are being given extra help and nudged towards easier majors and schedules. But I refuse to believe that other schools went as far as UNC did with the AFAM program. To think that that's the case is just crazy.

"These things totally happened, you guys, even if several investigations including this most recent one by a former DOJ Official who along with a staff probably spend thousands of hours poring over hundreds of documents and conducting dozens of interviews found absolutely no evidence of these things!" Really excellent work here. Your bitterness about the absence of any concrete evidence of misdoing by the MBB program in the report comes through clear as a bell.

I also like the "09 title is a total sham because Hansbrough seems really dumb to me" argument. Super classy approach. Let me know when you're ready to take a look at some of Duke's renowned scholars with the same discerning eye.

 

[TobiasFunke]

NCAA's response to damning UNC report will define its future

It’s standard practice these days to mock the NCAA for its antiquated rules and haphazard enforcement of them, but the North Carolina report does not involve tattoos for memorabilia, free hotel stays or agent payments. It details systemic abuse of the one area the NCAA purportedly holds most dear. Its mission statement, according to president Mark Emmert, is “to be an integral part of higher education and to focus on the development of our student-athletes.” Those Enterprise rental car commercials, those “going pro in something other than sports” PSAs, the obsession with APR scores and Graduation Success Rates – all reinforce the NCAA’s stated-though-not-always-followed contention that academics are paramount to the college athlete’s experience.


So today, Emmert and the NCAA face a defining moment. What are they going to do about North Carolina? How do you appropriately reprimand a university whose employees spent 18 years making a mockery of higher education? Who put the competitive needs of athletics above the academic development of students? Who made “the most serious academic fraud violations in 20 years” — Clem Haskins’ 18 cheating basketball players — seem like child’s play when compared with the unfathomable scope of UNC’s “shadow curriculum.”

…

The NCAA has no choice but to deliver a stern punishment to North Carolina or risk losing all credibility whenever Emmert or its leaders talk big about the importance of academics. But what that punishment will be is anyone’s guess.

…

Maybe wins and trophies will be vacated. Maybe more postseason bans are in store. Maybe something more severe. There’s no blueprint.

Whatever the punishment, it has to effectively send the message that academics, more than anything else, cannot be compromised for the sake of athletics success. The cynics will say that already happens, that there’s jock majors and easy classes at every school. Maybe so, but we don’t know that.

We only know what happened at UNC. And if the NCAA does not demonstrate the extent of its disincentive, then it does risk what happened at UNC happening everywhere else.

Oooh, hot take!

Lemme know when he shows concrete evidence of a violation of an NCAA rule by the men's basketball program. Something with actual meat on the bones instead of a bunch of grandstanding click bait. Let's say Corey Maggette level certainty of violations or better.

 

[TLEF316]

This idea that Wayne Walden (who Roy brought with him from KU to be the head academic guy for the UNC program) knew about the paper classes and steered players towards them (admitted in the report) but didn't tell Roy is totally absurd. If he "didn't know" its because he made it very clear that he didn't want to know.

When asked about whether he ever told Roy that Crowder was grading papers, he said he "didn't recall ever telling him that". That's very clearly code for "I don't want to get caught in a lie and there's zero upside to telling the truth". (if the truth is that Roy knew).

As I've been saying for like the past year, its pretty clear that UNC's basketball program will never face any significant punishment for whatever happened. And even if they did, it won't change the fact that they won the games on the court.

i absolutely believe that the 05 title is a complete and total sham. Considering that Tyler Hansbrough can barely read English but claims to have taken Swahili classes, the 09 title probably is as well. But even that's the case, they're not the first dirty title teams in NCAA history and they certainly wont be the last. The argument that UNC fans are making (everyone does it. We just got caught) is pretty much nonsense. Athletes at every big time program in America are being given extra help and nudged towards easier majors and schedules. But I refuse to believe that other schools went as far as UNC did with the AFAM program. To think that that's the case is just crazy.

The "gap", for lack of a better word, between the two bolded statements is absolutely tremendous. If you think that all these big time SEC football players are just getting a little "extra help" or "nudge toward easier majors", then I believe you are out of touch with the inner workings of big time college athletics.

P.S. Notice that nowhere in this post do I say that they have complete departments with mostly fake classes. Even SEC football programs are like "Damn, why didn't we think of that?!?"

Believe me, I'm not under any sort of delusion about what goes on at big time college athletic programs. I'm guessing the make up of an average "big time" football program is probably somewhere along these lines....

Category 1: The Freaks- The guys who can handle the rigors of a big time football schedule and a big time academic schedule. Guys like John Urschel who finish their degree in an advanced field in 2 and a half years. I'm guessing there's MAYBE 2-3 of these guys on a team..tops (more at places like Stanford or Northwestern)

Category 2: Average Joes- If they didn't have football, these guys could probably apply themselves and earn a degree in a very respectable field. (maybe even an advanced field) But with football, doing so is pretty much impossible. So instead, they take something a little easier (Maybe Sports Management instead of Business or Communications instead of History or English, for example). These guys are never eligibility risks. Percentage of the team probably varies by team (Higher at Michigan than Alabama, probably)

Category 3: The eligibility risks- These guys are there to play football. If they weren't contributing players, they probably wouldn't be there. (not worth the trouble) These guys probably take mostly easy majors and schedule the easiest classes possible. These guys are the reason that the football program has 40 tutors on staff, as you basically have to hold their hands during mandatory study hour in order to coax them into turning in anything resembling college level work. At most places, they probably get greased through with C's and the occasional A in "Basket weaving" to keep them on the field. Percentage varies by program.

Category 4: the Dopes- Star players who are just biding their time until they're eligible for the draft. At big time schools, the professors probably basically gift these kids the necessary minimum grades regardless of how little they try or whether they even show up to class. If you're this caliber of player and you STILL get declared ineligible, you did something seriously wrong.

 

[TLEF316]

This idea that Wayne Walden (who Roy brought with him from KU to be the head academic guy for the UNC program) knew about the paper classes and steered players towards them (admitted in the report) but didn't tell Roy is totally absurd. If he "didn't know" its because he made it very clear that he didn't want to know.

When asked about whether he ever told Roy that Crowder was grading papers, he said he "didn't recall ever telling him that". That's very clearly code for "I don't want to get caught in a lie and there's zero upside to telling the truth". (if the truth is that Roy knew).

As I've been saying for like the past year, its pretty clear that UNC's basketball program will never face any significant punishment for whatever happened. And even if they did, it won't change the fact that they won the games on the court.

i absolutely believe that the 05 title is a complete and total sham. Considering that Tyler Hansbrough can barely read English but claims to have taken Swahili classes, the 09 title probably is as well. But even that's the case, they're not the first dirty title teams in NCAA history and they certainly wont be the last. The argument that UNC fans are making (everyone does it. We just got caught) is pretty much nonsense. Athletes at every big time program in America are being given extra help and nudged towards easier majors and schedules. But I refuse to believe that other schools went as far as UNC did with the AFAM program. To think that that's the case is just crazy.

"These things totally happened, you guys, even if several investigations including this most recent one by a former DOJ Official who along with a staff probably spend thousands of hours poring over hundreds of documents and conducting dozens of interviews found absolutely no evidence of these things!" Really excellent work here. Your bitterness about the absence of any concrete evidence of misdoing by the MBB program in the report comes through clear as a bell.

I also like the "09 title is a total sham because Hansbrough seems really dumb to me" argument. Super classy approach. Let me know when you're ready to take a look at some of Duke's renowned scholars with the same discerning eye.

The first bolded item was admitted in the report. Walden admitted this. The fact that they never found "proof" that he told Roy Williams means very little. These guys worked side by side every single day. Do you seriously think they needed some folder full of smoking gun emails to communicate what was going on there?

If you seriously think that having 10 of 13 players from a championship team in a fraudulent major is just a coincidence, I'm not sure what to tell you.

If you find an example of one of Duke's players being incapable of reading a children's book, I'd be more than willing to discuss it. (and probably laugh about it right along side you)

The report was paid for by UNC. Its pretty clear that they wanted it to show just enough to say "See, we're admitting mistakes were made" without completing torpedioing the bball program or putting titles in jeopardy. Wanstein did the job he was hired and paid to do. This was always about UNC cutting their losses and saving what little face they have left.

Edit: and Honestly man, the fact that every one of your replies basically consists of "LOL, you have no proof. The report didn't say anything about basketball!!!!1111Juan" means you're probably being purposely obtuse and at least sort of fishing at this point. You've made it very clear that all you care about is wins on the court, and that's certainly your prerogative. I'm not about to get in a pissing match over this.

 

[randall146]

Tobias -

I think the following seems undeniable: A significant percentage of both football and basketball players was keeping itself NCAA eligible by knowingly enrolling in phantom classes. They (the players) knew they weren't doing the work, weren't attending the classes, and were getting A's.

If the above is true, then the programs were either complicit in this sham eligibility (by intentionally steering players, by looking the other way when the guys had no work to do and no exams scheduled) or blind to it. Or, possibly, a combination - the academic advisors and assistants were aware, but Roy didn't know. Seems to me even under the most innocent explanation (total program blindness) there's lack of institutional control.

I think you're in a weird state of denial combined with "everybody does it"

 

[TobiasFunke]

This idea that Wayne Walden (who Roy brought with him from KU to be the head academic guy for the UNC program) knew about the paper classes and steered players towards them (admitted in the report) but didn't tell Roy is totally absurd. If he "didn't know" its because he made it very clear that he didn't want to know.

When asked about whether he ever told Roy that Crowder was grading papers, he said he "didn't recall ever telling him that". That's very clearly code for "I don't want to get caught in a lie and there's zero upside to telling the truth". (if the truth is that Roy knew).

As I've been saying for like the past year, its pretty clear that UNC's basketball program will never face any significant punishment for whatever happened. And even if they did, it won't change the fact that they won the games on the court.

i absolutely believe that the 05 title is a complete and total sham. Considering that Tyler Hansbrough can barely read English but claims to have taken Swahili classes, the 09 title probably is as well. But even that's the case, they're not the first dirty title teams in NCAA history and they certainly wont be the last. The argument that UNC fans are making (everyone does it. We just got caught) is pretty much nonsense. Athletes at every big time program in America are being given extra help and nudged towards easier majors and schedules. But I refuse to believe that other schools went as far as UNC did with the AFAM program. To think that that's the case is just crazy.

"These things totally happened, you guys, even if several investigations including this most recent one by a former DOJ Official who along with a staff probably spend thousands of hours poring over hundreds of documents and conducting dozens of interviews found absolutely no evidence of these things!" Really excellent work here. Your bitterness about the absence of any concrete evidence of misdoing by the MBB program in the report comes through clear as a bell.

I also like the "09 title is a total sham because Hansbrough seems really dumb to me" argument. Super classy approach. Let me know when you're ready to take a look at some of Duke's renowned scholars with the same discerning eye.

The first bolded item was admitted in the report. Walden admitted this. The fact that they never found "proof" that he told Roy Williams means very little. These guys worked side by side every single day. Do you seriously think they needed some folder full of smoking gun emails to communicate what was going on there?

If you seriously think that having 10 of 13 players from a championship team in a fraudulent major is just a coincidence, I'm not sure what to tell you.

If you find an example of one of Duke's players being incapable of reading a children's book, I'd be more than willing to discuss it. (and probably laugh about it right along side you)

The report was paid for by UNC. Its pretty clear that they wanted it to show just enough to say "See, we're admitting mistakes were made" without completing torpedioing the bball program or putting titles in jeopardy. Wanstein did the job he was hired and paid to do. This was always about UNC cutting their losses and saving what little face they have left.

No, it means pretty much everything. Especially considering that they interviewed a huge number of other people familiar with the program and the story held up. And also considering that the one person from the program who had previously said otherwise refused multiple requests to speak on the record. That tells you everything you need to know- dozens of people supporting Williams' story, including the person who did the report, and the one guy who previously contradicting it refusing to speak.

There are plenty of accusations I could make about Duke players who weren't the sharpest pencils in the drawer somehow magically finding incredible academic success at one of the best schools in the country despite a demanding practice and travel schedule. You've been around the rivalry and the mudslinging enough to know the stories. But I don't care about unfounded gossipy stuff and theories and what people believe behind their dark blue or light blue or red colored glasses to be the truth. I'll stick to the facts.

I do like the "trusted DOJ official's meticulous investigation is a sham because UNC paid for it" angle you threw in there at the end, though. Nice bit of to round it up.

 

[Worm]

Tobias: Is Roy Williams an absolute idiot, or was he complicit? There's no middle ground.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Tobias -

I think the following seems undeniable: A significant percentage of both football and basketball players was keeping itself NCAA eligible by knowingly enrolling in phantom classes. They (the players) knew they weren't doing the work, weren't attending the classes, and were getting A's.

If the above is true, then the programs were either complicit in this sham eligibility (by intentionally steering players, by looking the other way when the guys had no work to do and no exams scheduled) or blind to it. Or, possibly, a combination - the academic advisors and assistants were aware, but Roy didn't know. Seems to me even under the most innocent explanation (total program blindness) there's lack of institutional control.

I think you're in a weird state of denial combined with "everybody does it"

If it's undeniable, prove it. Show me the text of the report or the comments at the press conference that demonstrate that a single basketball player (let alone a "significant percentage of them") (1) kept NCAA eligible by (2) knowingly enrolling in phantom classes and (3) not doing the work.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Tobias: Is Roy Williams an absolute idiot, or was he complicit? There's no middle ground.

Good question! Let's see: the text of the report says that there was no evidence that he was complicit. And Wainstein reiterated that in the PC. So if there is no middle ground, I guess that means he's an absolute idiot? Congratulations to the NC State men's basketball team on having its ### handed to it for the last ten years by an absolute idiot.

 

[Worm]

Tobias: Is Roy Williams an absolute idiot, or was he complicit? There's no middle ground.

Good question! Let's see: the text of the report says that there was no evidence that he was complicit. And Wainstein reiterated that in the PC. So if there is no middle ground, I guess that means he's an absolute idiot? Congratulations to the NC State men's basketball team on having its ### handed to it for the last ten years by an absolute idiot.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Tobias: Is Roy Williams an absolute idiot, or was he complicit? There's no middle ground.

Good question! Let's see: the text of the report says that there was no evidence that he was complicit. And Wainstein reiterated that in the PC. So if there is no middle ground, I guess that means he's an absolute idiot? Congratulations to the NC State men's basketball team on having its ### handed to it for the last ten years by an absolute idiot.

Thanks, I was particularly pleased with that one.

 

[pantherclub]

So you are hanging your hat on there is no evidence that Roy knew? After everything else thats the small victory you are clinging to? Jesus H Christ.

 

[randall146]

Tobias -

I think the following seems undeniable: A significant percentage of both football and basketball players was keeping itself NCAA eligible by knowingly enrolling in phantom classes. They (the players) knew they weren't doing the work, weren't attending the classes, and were getting A's.

If the above is true, then the programs were either complicit in this sham eligibility (by intentionally steering players, by looking the other way when the guys had no work to do and no exams scheduled) or blind to it. Or, possibly, a combination - the academic advisors and assistants were aware, but Roy didn't know. Seems to me even under the most innocent explanation (total program blindness) there's lack of institutional control.

I think you're in a weird state of denial combined with "everybody does it"

If it's undeniable, prove it. Show me the text of the report or the comments at the press conference that demonstrate that a single basketball player (let alone a "significant percentage of them") (1) kept NCAA eligible by (2) knowingly enrolling in phantom classes and (3) not doing the work.

i was just trying to have a reasonable discussion. i don't feel the need to prove anything to you.My understanding of the report is that student athletes enrolled in, got graded in, and got credits in nonexistent classes. Lecture classes that didn't meet. Paper classes with minimal work, assigned and generously graded by a secretary.

Then, after enjoying that non-academic experience, they and their right knit group of football and basketball players continued enrolling in and getting the eligibility benefit of fake classes. Year after year. The only reasonable conclusion is that they knew what they were doing.

I can't prove the classes kept them eligible, because we don't have access to transcripts. However, players generally take the minimal number of credits to stay eligible during the season. So in all likelihood most wouldn't have had enough credits if you took away the fake ones.

And, even absent that, obviously a fake A makes all the difference to a GPA when it's one of 3 or 4 classes in a semester (2 legit A's and a 0 = ineligible; 1 fake A and 2 gentlemen's D's = eligible)

 

[pantherclub]

/\ it did matter in Peppers case

 

[drfeelgood]

Tobias: Is Roy Williams an absolute idiot, or was he complicit? There's no middle ground.

He knew. All of the coaches knew. It is no surprise they are denying it. Walden saying he couldn't recall if he told Roy or not about the classes is laughable, as is Roy saying that he was concerned about all the AFAM classes his guys were taking, but he didn't know they weren't being taught by an instructor. There were 167 basketball players enrolled in AFAM in an 11 year timeframe under Roy. At least Doherty was honest enough to say that he was told when hired he could change anything regarding the staff, but was told by Dean and Guthridge he couldn't chance the academic support system run by Burgess McSwain. My sister was a student athlete at UNC from 2003-2007, and she said everyone within the athletic department knew about the phantom classes, and many knew outside of it. She said it was so big it was hard for people not to know about it.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

This thread is much more entertaining when Duke is the bad guy instead of UNC.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Tobias: Is Roy Williams an absolute idiot, or was he complicit? There's no middle ground.

He knew. All of the coaches knew. It is no surprise they are denying it. Walden saying he couldn't recall if he told Roy or not about the classes is laughable, as is Roy saying that he was concerned about all the AFAM classes his guys were taking, but he didn't know they weren't being taught by an instructor. There were 167 basketball players enrolled in AFAM in an 11 year timeframe under Roy. At least Doherty was honest enough to say that he was told when hired he could change anything regarding the staff, but was told by Dean and Guthridge he couldn't chance the academic support system run by Burgess McSwain. My sister was a student athlete at UNC from 2003-2007, and she said everyone within the athletic department knew about the phantom classes, and many knew outside of it. She said it was so big it was hard for people not to know about it.

I wish your sister had contacted Mr. Wainstein to assist with his investigation. Alas, she did not, which leaves us in the position of determining whose conclusions to believe- a massive investigation by a respected former Justice Department official who interviewed dozens of people and reviewed what must have been thousands of emails and transcripts, or an anonymous message board poster who roots for a rival team whose only evidence supporting his conclusions is that his sister told him "everyone knew." Tough call, to be sure, but personally I'll stick with Wainstein. Maybe the NCAA will disagree, though!

 

[Sammy3469]

Tobias -

I think the following seems undeniable: A significant percentage of both football and basketball players was keeping itself NCAA eligible by knowingly enrolling in phantom classes. They (the players) knew they weren't doing the work, weren't attending the classes, and were getting A's.

If the above is true, then the programs were either complicit in this sham eligibility (by intentionally steering players, by looking the other way when the guys had no work to do and no exams scheduled) or blind to it. Or, possibly, a combination - the academic advisors and assistants were aware, but Roy didn't know. Seems to me even under the most innocent explanation (total program blindness) there's lack of institutional control.

I think you're in a weird state of denial combined with "everybody does it"

If it's undeniable, prove it. Show me the text of the report or the comments at the press conference that demonstrate that a single basketball player (let alone a "significant percentage of them") (1) kept NCAA eligible by (2) knowingly enrolling in phantom classes and (3) not doing the work.

i was just trying to have a reasonable discussion. i don't feel the need to prove anything to you.My understanding of the report is that student athletes enrolled in, got graded in, and got credits in nonexistent classes. Lecture classes that didn't meet. Paper classes with minimal work, assigned and generously graded by a secretary.

Then, after enjoying that non-academic experience, they and their right knit group of football and basketball players continued enrolling in and getting the eligibility benefit of fake classes. Year after year. The only reasonable conclusion is that they knew what they were doing.

I can't prove the classes kept them eligible, because we don't have access to transcripts. However, players generally take the minimal number of credits to stay eligible during the season. So in all likelihood most wouldn't have had enough credits if you took away the fake ones.

And, even absent that, obviously a fake A makes all the difference to a GPA when it's one of 3 or 4 classes in a semester (2 legit A's and a 0 = ineligible; 1 fake A and 2 gentlemen's D's = eligible)

Well we (and the NCAA do know this):

In other words, for at least one semester in their college career, each of those students had an

actual cumulative GPA above a 2.0 but a recalculated GPA (excluding the paper class grade(s))

below a 2.0. This number includes 123 football players, 15 men’s basketball players, eight women’s

basketball players, and 26 Olympic sport athletes.

So from 1999-2011 we know that 15 basketball players played while academically ineligible. There's no getting around that. It doesn't matter if Roy, Doherty, Gut, or Dean knew or didn't know, they were playing guys who shouldn't have been playing.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Tobias -

I think the following seems undeniable: A significant percentage of both football and basketball players was keeping itself NCAA eligible by knowingly enrolling in phantom classes. They (the players) knew they weren't doing the work, weren't attending the classes, and were getting A's.

If the above is true, then the programs were either complicit in this sham eligibility (by intentionally steering players, by looking the other way when the guys had no work to do and no exams scheduled) or blind to it. Or, possibly, a combination - the academic advisors and assistants were aware, but Roy didn't know. Seems to me even under the most innocent explanation (total program blindness) there's lack of institutional control.

I think you're in a weird state of denial combined with "everybody does it"

If it's undeniable, prove it. Show me the text of the report or the comments at the press conference that demonstrate that a single basketball player (let alone a "significant percentage of them") (1) kept NCAA eligible by (2) knowingly enrolling in phantom classes and (3) not doing the work.

i was just trying to have a reasonable discussion. i don't feel the need to prove anything to you.My understanding of the report is that student athletes enrolled in, got graded in, and got credits in nonexistent classes. Lecture classes that didn't meet. Paper classes with minimal work, assigned and generously graded by a secretary.

Then, after enjoying that non-academic experience, they and their right knit group of football and basketball players continued enrolling in and getting the eligibility benefit of fake classes. Year after year. The only reasonable conclusion is that they knew what they were doing.

I can't prove the classes kept them eligible, because we don't have access to transcripts. However, players generally take the minimal number of credits to stay eligible during the season. So in all likelihood most wouldn't have had enough credits if you took away the fake ones.

And, even absent that, obviously a fake A makes all the difference to a GPA when it's one of 3 or 4 classes in a semester (2 legit A's and a 0 = ineligible; 1 fake A and 2 gentlemen's D's = eligible)

Well we (and the NCAA do know this):

In other words, for at least one semester in their college career, each of those students had an

actual cumulative GPA above a 2.0 but a recalculated GPA (excluding the paper class grade(s))

below a 2.0. This number includes 123 football players, 15 men’s basketball players, eight women’s

basketball players, and 26 Olympic sport athletes.

So from 1999-2011 we know that 15 basketball players played while academically ineligible. There's no getting around that. It doesn't matter if Roy, Doherty, Gut, or Dean knew or didn't know, they were playing guys who shouldn't have been playing.

Not true. You'd also have to show that the 15 basketball players that took those classes didn't do any work. Just because you took an AFAM paper class doesn't mean you didn't write a paper. In fact according to the report "several of the basketball players insisted that they read extensively and worked hard to produce papers for those classes."

Maybe they're lying, maybe they're not. But to say that you "know that 15 basketball players played while academically ineligible" you'd have to prove that they are lying. And considering that the only person who has alleged otherwise refused multiple requests to talk to Wainstein, I'd say you're on pretty weak ground with that claim.

While we're here, feel free to own up to that mistake yesterday re: Dean Smith and the 54 kids between 1993 and 1997. If I made a mistaken allegation like that about Duke basketball and Coach K I'd sure own up to it.

 

[drfeelgood]

Tobias: Is Roy Williams an absolute idiot, or was he complicit? There's no middle ground.

He knew. All of the coaches knew. It is no surprise they are denying it. Walden saying he couldn't recall if he told Roy or not about the classes is laughable, as is Roy saying that he was concerned about all the AFAM classes his guys were taking, but he didn't know they weren't being taught by an instructor. There were 167 basketball players enrolled in AFAM in an 11 year timeframe under Roy. At least Doherty was honest enough to say that he was told when hired he could change anything regarding the staff, but was told by Dean and Guthridge he couldn't chance the academic support system run by Burgess McSwain. My sister was a student athlete at UNC from 2003-2007, and she said everyone within the athletic department knew about the phantom classes, and many knew outside of it. She said it was so big it was hard for people not to know about it.

I wish your sister had contacted Mr. Wainstein to assist with his investigation. Alas, she did not, which leaves us in the position of determining whose conclusions to believe- a massive investigation by a respected former Justice Department official who interviewed dozens of people and reviewed what must have been thousands of emails and transcripts, or an anonymous message board poster who roots for a rival team whose only evidence supporting his conclusions is that his sister told him "everyone knew." Tough call, to be sure, but personally I'll stick with Wainstein. Maybe the NCAA will disagree, though!

I don't care if you believe me or not. You are so thin skinned when it comes to this UNC scandal, and you're arrogant and condescending to boot. My sister told my mom about the fake classes back when she was in college. My mother told her not to tell my dad or any of us siblings, and warned her not to take those courses. Like my sister, my mom is also an alumni from UNC. My dad is a NC State alumni. I have a brother who is also a NCSU alumni, and a sister and brother that are ECU alumni. I'm Elon. When the stuff came out about Butch and the football team, my sister and mom told everyone in the family about the fake classes. Of course my competitive family was like this .

 

[Sammy3469]

Tobias -

I think the following seems undeniable: A significant percentage of both football and basketball players was keeping itself NCAA eligible by knowingly enrolling in phantom classes. They (the players) knew they weren't doing the work, weren't attending the classes, and were getting A's.

If the above is true, then the programs were either complicit in this sham eligibility (by intentionally steering players, by looking the other way when the guys had no work to do and no exams scheduled) or blind to it. Or, possibly, a combination - the academic advisors and assistants were aware, but Roy didn't know. Seems to me even under the most innocent explanation (total program blindness) there's lack of institutional control.

I think you're in a weird state of denial combined with "everybody does it"

If it's undeniable, prove it. Show me the text of the report or the comments at the press conference that demonstrate that a single basketball player (let alone a "significant percentage of them") (1) kept NCAA eligible by (2) knowingly enrolling in phantom classes and (3) not doing the work.

i was just trying to have a reasonable discussion. i don't feel the need to prove anything to you.My understanding of the report is that student athletes enrolled in, got graded in, and got credits in nonexistent classes. Lecture classes that didn't meet. Paper classes with minimal work, assigned and generously graded by a secretary.

Then, after enjoying that non-academic experience, they and their right knit group of football and basketball players continued enrolling in and getting the eligibility benefit of fake classes. Year after year. The only reasonable conclusion is that they knew what they were doing.

I can't prove the classes kept them eligible, because we don't have access to transcripts. However, players generally take the minimal number of credits to stay eligible during the season. So in all likelihood most wouldn't have had enough credits if you took away the fake ones.

And, even absent that, obviously a fake A makes all the difference to a GPA when it's one of 3 or 4 classes in a semester (2 legit A's and a 0 = ineligible; 1 fake A and 2 gentlemen's D's = eligible)

Well we (and the NCAA do know this):

In other words, for at least one semester in their college career, each of those students had an

actual cumulative GPA above a 2.0 but a recalculated GPA (excluding the paper class grade(s))

below a 2.0. This number includes 123 football players, 15 men’s basketball players, eight women’s

basketball players, and 26 Olympic sport athletes.

So from 1999-2011 we know that 15 basketball players played while academically ineligible. There's no getting around that. It doesn't matter if Roy, Doherty, Gut, or Dean knew or didn't know, they were playing guys who shouldn't have been playing.

Not true. You'd also have to show that the 15 basketball players that took those classes didn't do any work. Just because you took an AFAM paper class doesn't mean you didn't write a paper. In fact according to the report "several of the basketball players insisted that they read extensively and worked hard to produce papers for those classes."

Maybe they're lying, maybe they're not. But to say that you "know that 15 basketball players played while academically ineligible" you'd have to prove that they are lying. And considering that the only person who has alleged otherwise refused multiple requests to talk to Wainstein, I'd say you're on pretty weak ground with that claim.

While we're here, feel free to own up to that mistake yesterday re: Dean Smith and the 54 kids between 1993 and 1997. If I made a mistaken allegation like that about Duke basketball and Coach K I'd sure own up to it.

That's directly from Wainstein's report. So you're saying he isn't telling the truth?

 

[TobiasFunke]

Tobias: Is Roy Williams an absolute idiot, or was he complicit? There's no middle ground.

He knew. All of the coaches knew. It is no surprise they are denying it. Walden saying he couldn't recall if he told Roy or not about the classes is laughable, as is Roy saying that he was concerned about all the AFAM classes his guys were taking, but he didn't know they weren't being taught by an instructor. There were 167 basketball players enrolled in AFAM in an 11 year timeframe under Roy. At least Doherty was honest enough to say that he was told when hired he could change anything regarding the staff, but was told by Dean and Guthridge he couldn't chance the academic support system run by Burgess McSwain. My sister was a student athlete at UNC from 2003-2007, and she said everyone within the athletic department knew about the phantom classes, and many knew outside of it. She said it was so big it was hard for people not to know about it.

I wish your sister had contacted Mr. Wainstein to assist with his investigation. Alas, she did not, which leaves us in the position of determining whose conclusions to believe- a massive investigation by a respected former Justice Department official who interviewed dozens of people and reviewed what must have been thousands of emails and transcripts, or an anonymous message board poster who roots for a rival team whose only evidence supporting his conclusions is that his sister told him "everyone knew." Tough call, to be sure, but personally I'll stick with Wainstein. Maybe the NCAA will disagree, though!

I don't care if you believe me or not. You are so thin skinned when it comes to this UNC scandal, and you're arrogant and condescending to boot. My sister told my mom about the fake classes back when she was in college. My mother told her not to tell my dad or any of us siblings, and warned her not to take those courses. Like my sister, my mom is also an alumni from UNC. My dad is a NC State alumni. I have a brother who is also a NCSU alumni, and a sister and brother that are ECU alumni. I'm Elon. When the stuff came out about Butch and the football team, my sister and mom told everyone in the family about the fake classes. Of course my competitive family was like this .

You clearly do care, because you replied to my post to tell me about it.

I promise you I'm not thin-skinned about this at all. They could take the banners down for all I care, it wouldn't change the fact that those tournaments and games happened and I enjoyed the hell out of them. This is just me passing the time, enjoying the desperation of rival fans who clearly thought they'd get more yesterday than got. It's a little boring, though, because the Wainstein report vindicated the basketball program to a degree that makes it a little too easy.

As for the arrogance and condescension- not sure how insisting that people stick to facts on the page instead of their own theories amounts to arrogance and condescension, but if the tone bothers you, put me on ignore. However, one thing I try to never do (at least not since putting pantherclub and ripleys on ignore) is say negative things about other posters. I respond only to what people post. Hopefully I've stuck to that here.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Tobias -

I think the following seems undeniable: A significant percentage of both football and basketball players was keeping itself NCAA eligible by knowingly enrolling in phantom classes. They (the players) knew they weren't doing the work, weren't attending the classes, and were getting A's.

If the above is true, then the programs were either complicit in this sham eligibility (by intentionally steering players, by looking the other way when the guys had no work to do and no exams scheduled) or blind to it. Or, possibly, a combination - the academic advisors and assistants were aware, but Roy didn't know. Seems to me even under the most innocent explanation (total program blindness) there's lack of institutional control.

I think you're in a weird state of denial combined with "everybody does it"

If it's undeniable, prove it. Show me the text of the report or the comments at the press conference that demonstrate that a single basketball player (let alone a "significant percentage of them") (1) kept NCAA eligible by (2) knowingly enrolling in phantom classes and (3) not doing the work.

i was just trying to have a reasonable discussion. i don't feel the need to prove anything to you.My understanding of the report is that student athletes enrolled in, got graded in, and got credits in nonexistent classes. Lecture classes that didn't meet. Paper classes with minimal work, assigned and generously graded by a secretary.

Then, after enjoying that non-academic experience, they and their right knit group of football and basketball players continued enrolling in and getting the eligibility benefit of fake classes. Year after year. The only reasonable conclusion is that they knew what they were doing.

I can't prove the classes kept them eligible, because we don't have access to transcripts. However, players generally take the minimal number of credits to stay eligible during the season. So in all likelihood most wouldn't have had enough credits if you took away the fake ones.

And, even absent that, obviously a fake A makes all the difference to a GPA when it's one of 3 or 4 classes in a semester (2 legit A's and a 0 = ineligible; 1 fake A and 2 gentlemen's D's = eligible)

Well we (and the NCAA do know this):

In other words, for at least one semester in their college career, each of those students had an

actual cumulative GPA above a 2.0 but a recalculated GPA (excluding the paper class grade(s))

below a 2.0. This number includes 123 football players, 15 men’s basketball players, eight women’s

basketball players, and 26 Olympic sport athletes.

So from 1999-2011 we know that 15 basketball players played while academically ineligible. There's no getting around that. It doesn't matter if Roy, Doherty, Gut, or Dean knew or didn't know, they were playing guys who shouldn't have been playing.

Not true. You'd also have to show that the 15 basketball players that took those classes didn't do any work. Just because you took an AFAM paper class doesn't mean you didn't write a paper. In fact according to the report "several of the basketball players insisted that they read extensively and worked hard to produce papers for those classes."

Maybe they're lying, maybe they're not. But to say that you "know that 15 basketball players played while academically ineligible" you'd have to prove that they are lying. And considering that the only person who has alleged otherwise refused multiple requests to talk to Wainstein, I'd say you're on pretty weak ground with that claim.

While we're here, feel free to own up to that mistake yesterday re: Dean Smith and the 54 kids between 1993 and 1997. If I made a mistaken allegation like that about Duke basketball and Coach K I'd sure own up to it.

That's directly from Wainstein's report. So you're saying he isn't telling the truth?

Of course he's telling the truth. The Wainstein report says the recalculated GPA (excluding the paper classes) of these 15 players would have been under 2.0. He doesn't say that those players should have been ineligible. To reach that conclusion you have to assume that the 15 players didn't do any work in those paper classes, something which contradicts their statements and to my knowledge is not asserted anywhere in the report. If you find that in the report- or a simple statement that the 15 players should have been ineligible- let me know.

 

[omally]

This thread is much more entertaining when Duke is the bad guy instead of UNC.

That's cause you are a UNC fan asskisser, and a Duke hater.

 

[omally]

However, one thing I try to never do (at least not since putting pantherclub and ripleys on ignore) is say negative things about other posters. I respond only to what people post. Hopefully I've stuck to that here.

You already told TLEF earlier today that he was bitter, which he wasn't being at all.

 

[TobiasFunke]

However, one thing I try to never do (at least not since putting pantherclub and ripleys on ignore) is say negative things about other posters. I respond only to what people post. Hopefully I've stuck to that here.

You already told TLEF earlier today that he was bitter, which he wasn't being at all.

Fair point. TLEF- if you don't think your post reflected bitterness on your part please accept my apologies for the negativity.

 

[TLEF316]

However, one thing I try to never do (at least not since putting pantherclub and ripleys on ignore) is say negative things about other posters. I respond only to what people post. Hopefully I've stuck to that here.

You already told TLEF earlier today that he was bitter, which he wasn't being at all.

Fair point. TLEF- if you don't think your post reflected bitterness on your part please accept my apologies for the negativity.

I'm not bitter towards unc at all. For most of my life, the rivalry has been fun to watch and pretty even on court. Unc being a good team produces great games that have brought me a lot of joy.That being said, I think there's waaaay too much smoke for a reasonable person to assume that the basketball program didnt do something pretty wrong here. And if unc has been winning games by cheating for the majority of my life, I would like to see that acknowledged.

The banners coming down would mean nothing to me. I couldn't care less. Certainly wouldn't make my life any better.

The new England Patriots on the other hand? Bunch of dirty cheaters with a fan base full of d-bags. #### those guys

 

[fantasycurse42]

Haven't had time to dig into this UNC scandal... Only have one question; Does this have an impact on my futures bet for UNC to win an NCAA Championship this year?

 

[meanjoegreen]

Haven't had time to dig into this UNC scandal... Only have one question; Does this have an impact on my futures bet for UNC to win an NCAA Championship this year?

Why don't you start a thread on it.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Haven't had time to dig into this UNC scandal... Only have one question; Does this have an impact on my futures bet for UNC to win an NCAA Championship this year?

Why don't you start a thread on it.

This feels like the right place for the question

 

[TobiasFunke]

However, one thing I try to never do (at least not since putting pantherclub and ripleys on ignore) is say negative things about other posters. I respond only to what people post. Hopefully I've stuck to that here.

You already told TLEF earlier today that he was bitter, which he wasn't being at all.

Fair point. TLEF- if you don't think your post reflected bitterness on your part please accept my apologies for the negativity.

I'm not bitter towards unc at all. For most of my life, the rivalry has been fun to watch and pretty even on court. Unc being a good team produces great games that have brought me a lot of joy.That being said, I think there's waaaay too much smoke for a reasonable person to assume that the basketball program didnt do something pretty wrong here. And if unc has been winning games by cheating for the majority of my life, I would like to see that acknowledged.

The banners coming down would mean nothing to me. I couldn't care less. Certainly wouldn't make my life any better.

The new England Patriots on the other hand? Bunch of dirty cheaters with a fan base full of d-bags. #### those guys

See this doesn't mean anything to me. There's smoke around every major college athletic program. You and I both know I could blow plenty about Duke, too. It's meaningless. If I don't see the fire it's all just the meaningless accusations and assumptions that surround every program. This was the chance for someone to uncover the fire regarding the UNC basketball program. It was investigated as thoroughly as any program in memory. And the result? Nothing but some trace puffs of smoke. That's a win for UNC MBB any way you slice it.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Haven't had time to dig into this UNC scandal... Only have one question; Does this have an impact on my futures bet for UNC to win an NCAA Championship this year?

No. However UNC's bizarre strategy of being good at most basketball skills but really really bad at shooting may present a problem.