Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Go with him here. They get elite 1 and dones every year and develop highly recruited four year players. Then it must be the coach as to why they have 2 Final Fours in the last 15 years. What else could it be?
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2019 NCAA Tourney Thread: Nation has to watch Virginia again (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Capella
- Start date
coyote5
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Totally agree. I don't fault Reddish at all - just can't believe any NBA team feels like he is worth drafting.
Short Corner
Footballguy
No, I love Izzo. Was just pointing out that penciling him into the final four every year might not be prudent. Especially given their recent performances.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Eh, the college game is totally different. Reddish reminds me a lot of Myles Turner- similar rank in the recruiting class, similar "meh" college season, even similar appearance. Turner got drafted late lottery based on potential, and now he's probably the 4th best player in his draft class, and 2nd-best in terms of return for the team that drafted him.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Yeah, maybe. Do you have confidence that Reddish can develop into a 37% shooter from beyond the arc? If yes, then I'm sold on him being valuable. He has the athletic profile.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
jplvr
Footballguy
Gratz @Fat Drunk and Stupid, you damned Barner. It's funny today to see all of the Alabama fans saying they're still glad we stuck with Anthony Grant one more year instead of going after Bruce ourselves.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Was thinking along the lines of how he was 0-9 in the last minute of game time during the 3 losses with Zion in the lineup.For a missed free throw?
I was thinking about the two missed free throws with 13 seconds left in a squeaker against UNC.
Was thinking about the missed free throw against FSU in another squeaker.
Then of course there is the missed free throw in the elite 8 and then the made free throw when trying to miss. Which of course were after the two missed jumpers in the last minute.
Then compare that to a putback against UCF which was clearly a foul in order to get the rebound and be able to make the wide open layup and 4 free throws down the stretch against UVA.
jplvr
Footballguy
This past weekend is basically what I wish the tournament was anyway with so many favorites advancing, and no really big underdogs. IOW more like a 16 team tourney with maybe some play in games the previous weekend between those types of 8-11 seeds. I get that a 15 seed getting hot from behind the arc in the first round is fun on that night, but then you might still have Duke in the tourney if that had happened this year, and who wants to see that again except Duke fans?
Nugget
Footballguy
Still feels good today knowing MSU proved the committee wrong.
In the end, it was Duke who should have been complaining about having MSU as their 2 seed.
And enough with ESPN and their stories about the poor Duke freshman. Nobody is making you leave for the NBA. Stick around and maybe you'll get another chance.
In the end, it was Duke who should have been complaining about having MSU as their 2 seed.
And enough with ESPN and their stories about the poor Duke freshman. Nobody is making you leave for the NBA. Stick around and maybe you'll get another chance.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
I'm glad the committee got it wrong. The Duke-UCF game was awesome to watch, even though the ending was complete BS. We should be sitting here today discussing what an amazing time it was to watch MSU stop UCF last night.
Moe.
Footballguy
I get what you are saying but I think the main reason is they play a single elimination tournament and it’s a difficult thing to do. Do you think Duke has underperformed for the last 15 years? It’s a hard thing to win and they’ve done it twice. Is there really a huge difference between losing in the quarterfinals instead of the semis?
BroncoFreak_2K3
sucker for Orange
And most of his recruits that stick around are 3 stars or walkons (see Kenny Goins)
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ffmail4me
Footballguy
RJ is definitely a very skilled player, but he's a volume scorer, I don't know that he'll ever be overly efficient. He was the most consistent Blue Devil this year (the only major starter that never got injured) but he certainly required a lot of shots to get those points. That was what was so amazing about Zion. He'd score the same or more than Barrett with WAY less touches. That's K's biggest mistake this year, not going through Zion on every possession.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
I'm not really interested in setting off the Ripleys Rage meter today but yes they've absolutely underperformed. Their seeding starting in 2004-05 has been:
1, 1, 6, 2, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 1, 4, 2, 2, and 1. Just going by the seeds that should be 6 Final Fours. They have 2. It should be 12 Elite 8's or better. They have 4. It should be 14 Sweet 16's or better. They have 9.
They lost as a 2 seed to #7 South Carolina on first weekend. They lost as a 3 seed to #14 Mercer in the first round. They lost as a 2 seed to #15 Lehigh in the first round. They were smoked in a Sweet 16 game as a 1 seed to #5 seed Arizona. They also lost a Sweet 16 game as a 1 seed to #5 Michigan State.
I'll buy the argument that perhaps the uniform gets them overseeded over time (certainly not this year) and with their seeding it's almost impossible to live up to seed expectations. But this also isn't a small sample size anymore either. They really haven't performed that well for the seed they are given plus the talent they have on that roster with one of the best coaches in the history of the game. But I'm not saying they haven't been a great program either
ffmail4me
Footballguy
Trust me Duke fans weren't happy we had MSU as our #2, nor the late start games when other #1 seeds usually had the earlier start time.
And you are correct, if these kids wanted to stay they could, but the culture says otherwise. Zion is the only one clearly ready. Cam and RJ both have plenty of areas to improve on. And if Tre Jones leaves, I don't know what to say. Great defender and good passer, but doesn't have elite speed and can't shoot from deep to save his life (I think he had 2 good shooting games all year) But I expect they will all leave.
ffmail4me
Footballguy
IF you could would you trade with Duke's awful performing program and take 2 titles over the last 15 years? Would about 300+ other programs? The answer to both of those questions is YES.
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TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
For a second there, I thought you were throwing out an opening lobby of Onslaught.
Moe.
Footballguy
Fair enough. As far as that goes I can’t believe anybody even bothers with him anymore.
In my mind the two championships in that period balances out the years where they got bumped early, but I get what you are saying. Obviously 15 years is a random number to use and without even looking I’m guessing it was chosen for a reason. Izzo has a ton of final fours but only one championship period - is that better?
culdeus
Footballguy
There are 5 other schools that have won multiple titles in that stretch. Duke is held up as the top A#1 program. They struggle to even make the last weekend consistently. Don't see why they get a pass for the 2 titles.
ffmail4me
Footballguy
Isn't the goal of a college basketball program to win a title? So Duke is one of 5 or 6 teams that has won 2 titles over the last 15 years. You could just as easily go back 2 more years and Duke has 3 titles in that span. That leaves 300+ programs who have NOT done that. Is this unique to Duke that teams with great talent don't always win it every year?
How many titles did UNC win with Jordan, considered the greatest of all time by everyone? 1 title. Just one. And his supporting cast was pretty amazing too (Perkins, Worthy, Kenny Smith, Brad Daughtery)
News flash, Duke is statistically the best program of the last 2+ decades using any data you want to use. That's why there is so much hate, because they have beaten all of your favorite teams more often than not. Our Coach has the most wins and we've won with ZERO scandals no matter how many times you cry "oh they are private they cheat, they cheat"
ffmail4me
Footballguy
Speaking of cheating...
"The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill has asked for an external review of the women's basketball program after, according to a statement, "issues raised by student-athletes and others."
UNC hired Charlotte-based Parker Poe Adams & Bernstein to "assess the culture of the women’s basketball program and the experience of our student-athletes," the university statement said.
The women's basketball coaching staff, including head coach Sylvia Hatchell, a member of the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame with more than 1,000 victories, is on paid leave for the course of the review."
But I'm sure Roy is totally clean. You only need to cheat for the women's program since that is the one that brings in so much revenue
"The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill has asked for an external review of the women's basketball program after, according to a statement, "issues raised by student-athletes and others."
UNC hired Charlotte-based Parker Poe Adams & Bernstein to "assess the culture of the women’s basketball program and the experience of our student-athletes," the university statement said.
The women's basketball coaching staff, including head coach Sylvia Hatchell, a member of the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame with more than 1,000 victories, is on paid leave for the course of the review."
But I'm sure Roy is totally clean. You only need to cheat for the women's program since that is the one that brings in so much revenue
Moe.
Footballguy
Unless there are some vacated championships that Wikipedia does not count it's 5 schools including Duke, not 5 other schools, but point taken. I'm not giving them a pass, and I think there are at least three other schools that would argue against the A#1 program designation.
Who is swapping results with Duke over the last 15 years? UNC for sure wouldn't, but I would bet the other three schools with multiple titles in that span would in a heartbeat.
Side note, UConn would have 3 titles if we went back to 2004, but Duke made the Final Four that year (now I know why we're using 15 years) - pretty impressive considering where they are right now.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Sorry, I'll take some responsibility here even though there was no intent. You really can't have an honest discussion about that program that includes both good and bad.
Moe.
Footballguy
All those other top schools have years where they were bounced early as well. It's bound to happen and I don't think it really says much, but I do acknowledge when we're comparing the best of the best you have to differentiate them somehow. I think if you go through each school year by year you'd be surprised at the early exits this century that you don't even remember.
Moe.
Footballguy
You are good, it's a boring Monday and it's interesting to me. No reason why the rest of us can't discuss it
ffmail4me
Footballguy
UCONN, Duke, UNC, Villanova, and Florida are the only schools with 2 or more Titles going back to 2000. Pick whatever year you want to start but the point is VERY few schools have had the success that these 5 programs have. And only Duke and Villanova have had multiple titles with ZERO infractions or investigations/allegations from this group.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Without looking up any stats off the top of my head I would rather have Kentucky, Kansas and Michigan St's success in that time period over Florida and UConn. I may be underestimating UConn's Big East years though. I may add Louisville to my list too.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Like a team losing to a 15 seed, an 11 seed, a 7 seed, to duke, to a 4 seed when they were the one seed, losing to a horizon league team, and losing in the first round another time?
Obviously I am cherry picking some stuff here, but the point remains, there are always disappointing years in there.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Kansas?No way i value 233 conference championships over an extra two national titles compared to Uconn.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Seems like this whole conversation is reaching back to before Duke became the headquarters of one-and-done, which was like 2015-ish. They won a title with three one-and-dones in 2015, but that team also had leftover upperclassmen from before K decided to make Duke a super-sized version of Calipari's Kentucky program.
Since that time they've had four teams with an "obvious Top 3 NBA Draft" type one and done (Brandon Ingram, Jayson Tatum, Marvin Bagley and Zion) supported by multiple other lottery caliber talents. Those four teams have yet to appear in a Final Four or win an ACC regular season championship. Admittedly it's a small sample size, and they have won the conference tournament twice, but it's still somewhat underwhelming. They were odds-on favorites to make a Final Four this year alone. Plus it's Duke, so
Since that time they've had four teams with an "obvious Top 3 NBA Draft" type one and done (Brandon Ingram, Jayson Tatum, Marvin Bagley and Zion) supported by multiple other lottery caliber talents. Those four teams have yet to appear in a Final Four or win an ACC regular season championship. Admittedly it's a small sample size, and they have won the conference tournament twice, but it's still somewhat underwhelming. They were odds-on favorites to make a Final Four this year alone. Plus it's Duke, so
Capella
Footballguy
Moe.
Footballguy
Exactly. I'm not sure who that is but I can mostly do KU off the top of my head - they have three Final Fours over the time period in question and one title, undoubtedly one of the top five programs.
They lost to Bucknell and Bradley in the 1st round in consecutive years. A second round loss to Northern Iowa (FARROKMANESH! I was at that game) as the number one overall seed, a second round loss to a ten seed, a second round loss to a 7 seed, and this year they got bounced in the round of 32 as a 4. It happens.
Moe.
Footballguy
It is crazy how those Florida championships feel like eons ago.Seems like this whole conversation is reaching back to before Duke became the headquarters of one-and-done, which was like 2015-ish. They won a title with three one-and-dones in 2015, but that team also had leftover upperclassmen from before K decided to make Duke a super-sized version of Calipari's Kentucky program.
Since that time they've had four teams with an "obvious Top 3 NBA Draft" type one and done (Brandon Ingram, Jayson Tatum, Marvin Bagley and Zion) supported by multiple other lottery caliber talents. Those four teams have yet to appear in a Final Four or win an ACC regular season championship. Admittedly it's a small sample size, and they have won the conference tournament twice, but it's still somewhat underwhelming. They were odds-on favorites to make a Final Four this year alone. Plus it's Duke, so
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Maybe the big problem here is that scouts just rate duke recruits too highly. I mean what have duke players really accomplished in the NBA? Coach k could just be super amazing after all.Seems like this whole conversation is reaching back to before Duke became the headquarters of one-and-done, which was like 2015-ish. They won a title with three one-and-dones in 2015, but that team also had leftover upperclassmen from before K decided to make Duke a super-sized version of Calipari's Kentucky program.
Since that time they've had four teams with an "obvious Top 3 NBA Draft" type one and done (Brandon Ingram, Jayson Tatum, Marvin Bagley and Zion) supported by multiple other lottery caliber talents. Those four teams have yet to appear in a Final Four or win an ACC regular season championship. Admittedly it's a small sample size, and they have won the conference tournament twice, but it's still somewhat underwhelming. They were odds-on favorites to make a Final Four this year alone. Plus it's Duke, so
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Thats why I said two more. Since 2000 uconn has 3. Kansas has 1.
I would never trade 2 titles in exchange for winning regular season big 12 championship a bunch of times. No way.
No allegations re: Duke? That's where you're taking this, Ripleys?
Corey Maggette - Admitted accepting money from boosters during recruitment.
Chris Duhon - Mother received a job from a Duke booster, which was never advertised and for which she was completely unqualified.
Lance Thomas - Jewelry fiasco ring a bell?
Greg Newton - Suspended for cheating on an exam.
Meredith Watson accused a Duke basketball player of rape.
Zion - Apparently requested payments from Kansas, yet later chose Duke.
This took all of five minutes to Google. I'm sure there aren't more...
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Johnny Rock
Footballguy
No apologies needed. I found your data fascinating.
We all know Duke is a top program but I’m surprised they don’t win more titles. I’m not looking up their roster but you always think they have a bench full of 4* & 5* and McDonalds AA.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
John Blutarsky
Footballguy
I hope Virginia wins it. Tony Bennett is a class act.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
For sure. But they got a good look quickly, and if he'd missed, they wouldn't have been dead in the water. They'd certainly be in a tough spot, but not dead. I mean a lot depends on just getting lucky enough for their shot to go in, and Duke's 3 to miss, but I think Sparty's end-game management tipped the scales towards them a bit more.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Imagine being a grown adult who's gone through maybe a dozen (?) aliai and spoof email addresses just to argue about the basketball team of a school that you didn't attend, and with people who don't like you.
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No thanks. I’ll take my 4 titles in last 20 years at UConn. Taking down the blue bloods in the tournament is so much more rewarding.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
You guys have won 4? Damn, I was wrong earlier in the thread. My bad they are right up there with anyone else.
PS: Damn you for 2004
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I'd like to see a metric to measure NCAA schools based on men's basketball and football only. I'd think the Big 10 and Pac 12 would dominate the top 20 over the past 20-30 years, with the ACC and SEC schools (other than Florida) being pretty scarce on the list.
