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2020 MLB Spring Training (3 Viewers)

Capella said:
The second or third best player in the game is spending it poorly? I’d argue they spent it poorly before it came to him. 
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If it puts them over the cap to where they are paying ridiculous luxury taxes, yes.  Mookie's great and I like him a lot.  But overpaying for something that doesn't guarantee any more wins doesn't make sense.  

 
TheIronSheik said:
If it puts them over the cap to where they are paying ridiculous luxury taxes, yes.  Mookie's great and I like him a lot.  But overpaying for something that doesn't guarantee any more wins doesn't make sense.  
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A healthy Mookie absolutely guarantees that team more wins. 

 
TheIronSheik said:
We've gone over this, GB.  It doesn't.  The Phillies added Bryce Harper who was healthy all year.  They won the exact same games as they did the previous year without him.  
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Sorry buddy but you’re just way off here. That’s not how things are calculated at all. Betts by most metrics was worth 7 wins to the Sox last year. Whomever they replace him with won’t come anywhere near that. 
 

Harper was worth 4 wins to the Phils last year. I assume the rest of their roster let them down. 

 
Capella said:
Sorry buddy but you’re just way off here. That’s not how things are calculated at all. Betts by most metrics was worth 7 wins to the Sox last year. Whomever they replace him with won’t come anywhere near that. 
 

Harper was worth 4 wins to the Phils last year. I assume the rest of their roster let them down. 
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In a linear win total model, sure, the Sox won't be able to gain back the 7 wins Mookie was worth THIS YEAR. But in 2021, being almost $70M under the CBT number and the willingness to go way over it by avoiding the cumulative tax increase, they should be able to more than make up the 7 wins with the subsequent roster moves and signings (and the guys they picked up for Betts). But I am sure you will say they have a bottomless bit of money and none of that matters.

 
Anarchy99 said:
For all the people saying Boston had plenty of money lying around to give Mookie whatever he wanted, there was an article by Jayson Stark on The Athletic a few days ago that outlined what would have happened if Boston had kept Betts and Price and did not get under the CBT. Basically, what would have happened if Boston just stayed above the tax line indefinitely and never had the tax multiplier reset. If Mookie was extended for $40 million a year, with the tax included, it would have cost Boston $78 million a year for Betts (I believe that was the number . . . based on a 95% tax rate for exceeding and maintaining all 3 conditions to achieve the max CBT tax rate). I won't argue with people that would point out that Boston had other ways to get under the CBT baseline this year. However, I certainly don't think it would have been easy.  Other teams did not want Price unless they got a really good incentive to take him (in reality, Betts). That's why teams can't just live over the tax threshold for forever. Betts is good . . . but $70+ million a year good?
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I love Jayson Stark but Fangraphs came up with much different results.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/what-do-the-red-sox-actually-save-by-trading-betts-price/.

 
TheIronSheik said:
No.  They added a lot of other good players, too.  They were the first team ever to trade for 3 former All Stars in an offseason.  
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The Phillies pitching took a bit of a step back.  Aaron Nola went from 10.5 WAR to 3.5 WAR (and 3.01 FIP to 4.03 FIP). Arrieta from 2.9 WAR (4.25 FIP) to 0.9 WAR (4.89 FIP).  Pivetta 2.3 WAR to -0.5 WAR.  They also had a lot of bullpen injuries; lost McCutcheon too.

 
RUSF18 said:
They also could’ve not given Eovaldi $16MM a year as a reward for that postseason.

If the Yankees were able to manage their payroll to get under the tax line to avoid the multiplier effect without losing any star players, the Red Sox should have been able to as well. 
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The Yankees were in a similar situation in 2016 (needing to pare payroll). They made corresponding roster moves to get under the CBT line, but their moves were not as Draconian as having to trade someone like Betts. The Yanks got off of $75-80M by extracting themselves from the contracts of ARod, Texeira, McCann, and Beltran. So they had a bit of a trifecta. They got younger, they saved money, and they hit on their young talent all in one year. Admittedly the Red Sox had a decade of getting into bad contracts and have been paying the price ever since. So the bind they got in was self-inflicted. There are only so many bad contracts a team can just eat and not feel it at some point.

 
TheIronSheik said:
No.  They added a lot of other good players, too.  They were the first team ever to trade for 3 former All Stars in an offseason.  
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Interesting with all this change you are able to discern that Harper's add made no difference to the outcome, when it appears several other players came and went, and every other team in the league had changes as well.  :shrug:  

 
Brunell4MVP said:
I'm a Braves and Nats fan, and I'll forever contend the Astors did nothing wrong and they should have gone with that as their defense.  Everyone is stealing signs.  This is all about the mechanisms used to do it and how one is ok but one isn't.  To me - whether a player at 2nd base, a coach picking up a pitcher's tell, a guy in center field beating a drum, or a wire telling a player what's coming - doesn't matter.  It's all stealing signs.  Teams should have done a better job to combat it.  Like have the pitcher and catcher wear electronics to avoid the other team stealing anything.  or the pitcher doing a better job hiding his grip.  To me this ihas been one giant non-story.
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MLB sent a memo threatening severe penalties for electronic sign stealing. Houston blatantly ignored it and kept on doing it.  The argument about sign stealing going on for decades is irrelevant.  Houston isn't being punished for stealing signs prior to the memo.  If any other club was doing the same thing after Sept 2017 they should be punished accordingly.

The organization absolutely knew they were breaking a very specific rule, how can MLB just allow them to get away with it?

 
Tom Hagen said:
MLB sent a memo threatening severe penalties for electronic sign stealing. Houston blatantly ignored it and kept on doing it.  The argument about sign stealing going on for decades is irrelevant.  Houston isn't being punished for stealing signs prior to the memo.  If any other club was doing the same thing after Sept 2017 they should be punished accordingly.

The organization absolutely knew they were breaking a very specific rule, how can MLB just allow them to get away with it?
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I don't think the point being made is that a punishment should not occur.  I think the point being made is that it is not an integrity of the game altering infraction.  Signs get stolen.  It is not illegal to steal signs.  This particular method to do so is against the rules.  Astros got caught doing it and were punished accordingly.  Time to move on. 

 
Don’t know about anyone else but I’m really hoping the “time to move on/get over it” schtick continues well into the decade. 

 
Capella said:
Sorry buddy but you’re just way off here.  That’s not how things are calculated at all. Betts by most metrics was worth 7 wins to the Sox last year. Whomever they replace him with won’t come anywhere near that. 

Harper was worth 4 wins to the Phils last year. I assume the rest of their roster let them down. 
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Just here?  

 
Bull Dozier said:
Interesting with all this change you are able to discern that Harper's add made no difference to the outcome, when it appears several other players came and went, and every other team in the league had changes as well.  :shrug:  
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What I’m saying is payroll doesn’t mean anything. Their payroll increased dramatically and there was zero effect on their win total. 

 
I see Heyman said the Astros players were all very apologetic in the dugout and after their initial first statement yesterday.  He said their first responses were written by the team and they shouldn't be blamed for how it sounded.

If that's true, why didn't the media report more on their later apologies?  

 
TheIronSheik said:
I see Heyman said the Astros players were all very apologetic in the dugout and after their initial first statement yesterday.  He said their first responses were written by the team and they shouldn't be blamed for how it sounded.

If that's true, why didn't the media report more on their later apologies?  
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It's not the media's job to clean up the Astros recurring PR messes. We don't even know if those discussion with players were on the record.

Also, isn't Heyman part of the media?

 
NREC34 said:
The Astros and their fans are mad right now. Why? We feel scapegoated. We feel like it was a technological arms race in baseball for a few years a lots of teams were doing the same thing or a similar version of it and if you wanted to compete at the highest levels or win you better be doing something too.

We feel unfairly singled out here because of one disgruntled, child molester ex-employee. We feel like NY gets a pass on everything! I’m sorry, Carlos Beltran didn’t magically transform into a different guy the one year he was in Houston but because he goes by a code that 99.9% of players follow he will never implicate anyone else. 

Let’s see what happens if Boston also gets hammered. Will the public or guys on this board be as harsh to them and parse every word any of them say about it? Or conjure up conspiracy theories they can’t prove about them? I doubt it. 

It the unfairness of all this that pisses us off. 

There you have it. At least my opinion of it. 

Sorry you can’t accept our apologies for being the scourge of baseball. 
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Sorry but this just seems silly imo

TheIronSheik said:
I see Heyman said the Astros players were all very apologetic in the dugout and after their initial first statement yesterday.  He said their first responses were written by the team and they shouldn't be blamed for how it sounded.

If that's true, why didn't the media report more on their later apologies?  
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What ???      :lol:

 
TheIronSheik said:
I see Heyman said the Astros players were all very apologetic in the dugout and after their initial first statement yesterday.  He said their first responses were written by the team and they shouldn't be blamed for how it sounded.

If that's true, why didn't the media report more on their later apologies?  
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They did. Rosenthal and MLB Network were all over that.

 
Again, I'm not trying to defend them.  I've said from the get go that they get what they deserve.

But my point was that it was widely reported everywhere that the players didn't really seem very apologetic.  And they quoted their initial, pre-scripted apologies.  But if later on in the day, they actually were more genuine and apologetic, it seems odd that no one besides Heyman is reporting that.  That's the media pushing an agenda.  

Again, you can be mad at them for what they did.  But a lot of the anger yesterday was coming from people who were saying the players didn't seem very sorry for what they did.  But that now sounds like it's because the media only reported on half of the story.

 
NREC34 said:
They’re worse than Hitler if you listen to the NY media I’ve listened to. 

Reminds me of Fox News talking about democrats. 
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Oh please, get over yourself man. WFAN is a SPORTS radio station. Do you NOT expect them to talk about the biggest scandal in baseball in years? Especially when THAT team knocked out the Yankees 2 times in the last 3 years and one of those years was due to a walkoff HR that may or may not have been aided by a buzzer? What else are they going to talk about now? All other NY teams SUCK! You keep telling people to move on but you are the ONLY one who feels that way. This is a HUGE story that won't end for quite some time.

 
shadyridr said:
Oh please, get over yourself man. WFAN is a SPORTS radio station. Do you NOT expect them to talk about the biggest scandal in baseball in years? Especially when THAT team knocked out the Yankees 2 times in the last 3 years and one of those years was due to a walkoff HR that may or may not have been aided by a buzzer? What else are they going to talk about now? All other NY teams SUCK! You keep telling people to move on but you are the ONLY one who feels that way. This is a HUGE story that won't end for quite some time.
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I expect them to. 

I would hope that they wouldn’t fabricate stuff to fan the flames more. 

I know, I know.  Ratings. 

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
I haven’t really posted about this at all, and will probably regret getting involved , but what exactly has been fabricated?
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A lot of them just state that buzzers were used as if it’s fact. 

They had Curt Schilling on yesterday who stated that Reddick had a wire on in a pic that’s been proven to be a piece of confetti. The hosts don’t question that statement at all. 

Things like that. Maybe I’ll think of more later. 

 
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NREC34 said:
A lot of them just state that buzzers were used as if it’s fact. 

They had Curt Schilling on yesterday who stated that Reddick had a wire on in a pic that’s been proven to be a piece of confetti. The hosts don’t question that statement at all. 

Things like that. Maybe I’ll think of more later. 
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For someone who wants everyone to move on, you’re sure having a hard time doing so yourself. 

Maybe turn off the radio if you can’t stand it so much?

 
NREC34 said:
A lot of them just state that buzzers were used as if it’s fact. 

They had Curt Schilling on yesterday who stated that Reddick had a wire on in a pic that’s been proven to be a piece of confetti. The hosts don’t question that statement at all. 

Things like that. Maybe I’ll think of more later. 
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Right or wrong I think that things like that should be expected of the media these days. I wouldn’t think anyone should be surprised by any of it

 
They had a caller call in yesterday who said he wanted to ban all people from Houston from coming to NY. 

I think he was serious too. 😂

 
RUSF18 said:
For someone who wants everyone to move on, you’re sure having a hard time doing so yourself. 

Maybe turn off the radio if you can’t stand it so much?
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It’s an interesting story to me. 

The Yankee fans so hurt by feeling like they’ve been cheated is great. After all the cheating they’ve done through the years and all the advantages they have over everyone else. 

It’s almost like it kills them when the tables turn. 

Hopefully if buzzers were used it comes out. They’ll have talk radio material for at least a decade. 

 
TheIronSheik said:
I see Heyman said the Astros players were all very apologetic in the dugout and after their initial first statement yesterday.  He said their first responses were written by the team and they shouldn't be blamed for how it sounded.

If that's true, why didn't the media report more on their later apologies?  
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I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the Astros are only sorry because they got caught. If they had never been caught, they’d probably still be laughing it up about what they got away with. 

That said, I do like the fact that the Yankees were victimized by this. 

 
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I know this is spitting hairs but the Astros did not cheat.  Sign stealing is not illegal.  Every team steal signs.  It has been happening since the game began.  The Astros broke the rule instituted at the end of 2017 that you cannot use cameras to steal signs in real time.  They are punished for using an illegal method to steal signs...……...not for stealing the signs.  They deserve to be punished because they broke a rule. 

Sign stealing will continue to happen this year, next year, and forever.  All teams will continue to steal signs.  That is not cheating. 

 
Gally said:
I know this is spitting hairs but the Astros did not cheat.  Sign stealing is not illegal.  Every team steal signs.  It has been happening since the game began.  The Astros broke the rule instituted at the end of 2017 that you cannot use cameras to steal signs in real time.  They are punished for using an illegal method to steal signs...……...not for stealing the signs.  They deserve to be punished because they broke a rule. 

Sign stealing will continue to happen this year, next year, and forever.  All teams will continue to steal signs.  That is not cheating. 
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If you break a rule its cheating HTH

 
shadyridr said:
If you break a rule its cheating HTH
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I get that which is why I said I was splitting hairs.  The big outcry is about "stealing signs".  There is nothing wrong with stealing signs.  That is not the issue and never really has been the issue.  The public is harping on the wrong part of what happened.  Stealing signs is not a problem or against the rules......the method they used was the problem and they are being punished for it.  It is not a game integrity issue.

 
Ghost Rider said:
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the Astros are only sorry because they got caught. If they had never been caught, they’d probably still be laughing it up about what they got away with. 

That said, I do like the fact that the Yankees were victimized by this. 
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Of course they are mostly sorry that they got caught and all the negative stuff associated with it. 

But they’re also mad. I’ve went over why a couple of other times and I won’t get redundant. 

I feel like I have a good pulse on how most of them feel. And their fans. 

 
Been at Phillies practice for an hour and all we’ve seen is them stretch and overhear old men talk about chicks in yoga pants. 

 
NREC34 said:
But they’re also mad.
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Mad they got caught?

Mad that Fiers ratted them out?

That's their own problem. The part that is irritating to me is they got busted. And ever since then the whole Astros organization has acted like a bunch of damn idiots. And the only reason is because they are trying to justify in their own minds the validity of the World Series title.

Instead of just standing up and saying: Yep, we did it. We are sorry. 

The way they are handling this is horrible.

 
Somebody ####ing do something. It’s just baseball they’ve been stretching for 45 minutes. Is a karate match going to break out?

 
ChiefD said:
Mad they got caught?

Mad that Fiers ratted them out?

That's their own problem. The part that is irritating to me is they got busted. And ever since then the whole Astros organization has acted like a bunch of damn idiots. And the only reason is because they are trying to justify in their own minds the validity of the World Series title.

Instead of just standing up and saying: Yep, we did it. We are sorry. 

The way they are handling this is horrible.
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Privately they are mad. Yes! They seemed to handle it pretty much the way you outlined unless I’m missing something they did. 

Mad that Fiers did that, yes. Mad that others know about other teams that did similar but don’t want to pull a Fiers, yes. Mad that 5 heads have rolled plus all the other fines and penalties and most everyone (like you) still criticize and parse every word they say, yes. Mad that Boston gets investigated for the same thing but we hardly hear a peep about them, yes...

 
Gally said:
I know this is spitting hairs but the Astros did not cheat.  Sign stealing is not illegal.  Every team steal signs.  It has been happening since the game began.  The Astros broke the rule instituted at the end of 2017 that you cannot use cameras to steal signs in real time.  They are punished for using an illegal method to steal signs...……...not for stealing the signs.  They deserve to be punished because they broke a rule. 

Sign stealing will continue to happen this year, next year, and forever.  All teams will continue to steal signs.  That is not cheating. 
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You are contradicting yourself, gb

 
bryhamm said:
You are contradicting yourself, gb
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It's splitting hairs.  I know that.  The end result (stealing signs) is not cheating.  The method used is against the rules.  I understand it's a fine line but people only seem to be upset that they stole signs.  Stealing signs is not the problem.  It is perfectly legal to steal signs.  MLB made a rule prohibiting using cameras to do so.  That is why they are being punished.  If the Astros stole signs by some other method there would not be an issue. 

ETA:  I am not a fan of the Astros or Dodgers or any other team involved in this pissing match.  I just don't think this should be a big issue.  Break a rule, get punished, move on.  The game didn't change.  The integrity wasn't compromised.  Sign stealing will still happen.....just don't use cameras. 

 
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Gally said:
It's splitting hairs.  I know that.  The end result (stealing signs) is not cheating.  The method used is against the rules.  I understand it's a fine line but people only seem to be upset that they stole signs.  Stealing signs is not the problem.  It is perfectly legal to steal signs.  MLB made a rule prohibiting using cameras to do so.  That is why they are being punished.  If the Astros stole signs by some other method there would not be an issue. 
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I think this is where we disagree.  I think people are the most upset with HOW they went about stealing the signs.

 
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