Chadstroma
Footballguy
QB Sloter released from PS
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2021 Las Vegas Raiders - PLAYOFFS!!!! (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Hankmoody
- Start date
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
I don't follow the team that closely, so maybe I'm missing something. Why do so many folks consider this a "lost season?" They're 3-2 and seven teams in the conference make the playoffs. They lost to an underrated (then, anyway) Chargers team before their recent loss which occurred during a bunch of distractions.
They have their weapons (Jacobs seems to be healthy again) and Carr is making good use of what I considered an underwhelming group of receivers. Everything changes because the coach is gone? I get there's a loss in coaching ability, but it's the same team. Shouldn't this at least be a "wait and see" for a pretty good team?
They have their weapons (Jacobs seems to be healthy again) and Carr is making good use of what I considered an underwhelming group of receivers. Everything changes because the coach is gone? I get there's a loss in coaching ability, but it's the same team. Shouldn't this at least be a "wait and see" for a pretty good team?
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Someone check Chad's anti-depression meds. This might be the most negative thing he's said about the Raiders in a decade
Not true. Big jerk face.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Because we do follow the team closely amd have lived through these kinds of heartbreak for 20+ years. When the record is scratched, any jump makes you immediately think it is going to repeat.
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That's sort of how I see it. Although to be fair, lots of these threads on teams have heavily biased views. Few things are stronger than home town pessimism. Reading some of the Chargers thread, you'd think they're the Lions.
But my take too is the Raiders have plenty of room for optimism. It's not like they lost Andy Reid or Sean McVay. Lots of people were worried about the Gruden contract. Now they're out of that. Good young QB, solid RB, Top 3 TE in the game (maybe #1), new stadium, huge fan support, NFL royalty and lots more.
Chargers are up for sure but Kansas City looks to have serious flaws.
I think there's plenty of room for optimism.
kaso
Footballguy
Sorry @Joe Bryant... I know that this place is yours and all, but in this thread that kind of outlook is frowned upon.
massraider
Footballguy
Davis/Mayock need to hit it out of the park here. There's young talent, but Gruden was too conservative.
Gruden got what he deserved. But the conspiracy theorist in me can't help but wonder who spearheaded the witchhunt. Who had it out for Gruden and why are they protecting everyone else involved? And why now? Why not back in July? Things just aren't adding up for me. The $10 mil the WFT was fined seems like peanuts versus the $60 mil Gruden just lost.
kaso
Footballguy
I agree completely. This seems like a massive slight of hand trick, where the viewer is tricked into focusing at one thing while another much larger issue is slide past them.
I can buy into the idea that the first email leaked was used to keep Smith in his role w/ the NFLPA. A couple hours before a key vote. That timing can't be coincidence.
Only emails to/from Gruden and Allen are the issue out of 650,000 emails?!
No written report from the team that needed to investigate all of this? Who spends that kind of time and money on this type of exercise to only meet and verbally discuss the findings?
I have more questions than I do answers.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
my guess is that it's the NFL. sadly, i am certain that this crap is pervasive across the league. at the highest levels. kraft gets happy endings, nothing happens. snyder and all the bs with his team, nothing happens. jerry richardson has a bunch of sexual harassment suits, he sells the team. this is about protecting the owners.
imho, gruden was the biggest fish outside the sealed portion of the WFT investigation. he was/is the red herring to get the attention off the NFL owners. what gruden did was stupid and indefensible. an easy decision. why they waited? i have no clue. it may just have been that the reporters just got the info.
I agree, we would be naive to believe Gruden is the only one in the NFL who feels like that. He's got lots of friends, Andy Reid, Sean McVay, Mike Tomlin just to name a few. Many of these guys are scrubbing emails right about now and distancing themselves as far from Gruden as possible.
It all could be just as simple as Gruden was the scapegoat because he was dumb enough and blatant enough to get caught.
ICON211
Footballguy
Really dumb for Gruden to write this kind of stuff and send it to someone's work email, but I don't think he is a racist or homophobic. He had a guy on his own team that felt comfortable enough to come out as being gay with Gruden as his coach and he did not release or deactivate him on Sundays. I don't know exactly what all the emails say, but he supposedly said women should not be refs in the NFL. If that is true that might be the worst thing of everything, to just disqualify someone based on their gender.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
mike wilbon said something i agreed with this week. "stop saying, you don't have a racist bone in your body" or anything else similar. he went on to say "we ALL have racism inside of us, to some degree"
gruden is a crude, vulgar guy. he's a dinosaur from another era. i have no doubt in my mind that what he wrote in those emails, reflects a part of who he is. he's also not dumb enough to do or say anything about nassib. old, super rich white guys, aren't exactly the most tolerant group.
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TVT 0 N S T A
Footballguy
Some sweeping generalities here... Not that I can change your mind and I definitely am not about to try to, but do yourself a favor - next time Mike Wilbon is on your television or radio - shut that s**t off. He sucks. His takes are lame. He should probably start advocating the clean-up of Chicago and corruption that exists there first.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
TVT 0 N S T A
Footballguy
Not sure how the bolded is considered so funny, but... was referencing your term of tolerance toward a complete demographic of people based on color and then combatting racism. Some rich material out of you.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
It is "odd" that this has gone down the way it has and that largely Gruden is the only casualty through this all when we KNOW that some pretty nasty things were DONE and not just written in Washington.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Nassib has asked for a personal day to basically process all of this. I feel for the guy. I think he is struggling to come to terms with what I think he felt was acceptance and then the emails that suggest maybe that acceptance was false. I can't put my feet in his shoes exactly but I can remember feeling like people who I thought were my friends were saying things to one another in emails that were horrible about me and I found out. It is a horrible feeling.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
... and someone who is perceived as being, shall we say... "weak"Chaka said:
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I disagree vehemently with this. You can't confuse prejudice with racism. Prejudice is a constant in the human condition and not even talking about racial prejudice exactly here.... we all pre-judge things constantly every day of our lives. It is how our brain functions. For example, when you drive and to a green light. Your prejudice tells you that it is safe to hit the gas and go through the intersection without checking left and right to see if you will get hit by a vehicle that doesn't obey the traffic signs. Prejudice is amoral, it can be positive, neutral or negative. Prejudices in general can be based in fact or fiction. They can be accurate or false. I use that example to show that prejudice is not just in the form of ugliness in such as racial prejudice but of course racial prejudice is a part of that. Further, even racial prejudice and racism are not one in the same. Racism requires a belief in racial superiority of one group over another. Racial prejudice can actually be a positive prejudice such as Asians are good students or good at math, etc (being married to one that was an average student and not particularly good at math, I find those prejudices to be funny).
I am not going to try to judge if Gruden is racist or anything else. I don't know the guy that well. If you forced me to, I lean towards the thinking that it was what use to be called "locker room talk" but no doubt I do know that in this day and age, you just can't say or write those kind of things, even if you are joking. I have serious concerns about "Cancel Culture" and I believe that it is our of control but at the same time you have to realize with certain positions comes certain responsibility and beyond that, right or wrong, "Cancel Culture" is a thing.
The thing that to me is clearly wrong and the most egregious failing is the thing that is getting the least amount of discussion or talk- which is the sending of topless cheerleader pictures back and forth. From what I have seen that is the kind of thing that started this whole mess in getting into the emails. These women were coerced into compromising situations and candid photos of them while doing photo shoots etc that caught them nude were sent around to men within the organization undoubtedly without their permission. Taking part of that in any way, shape or form is something by itself is not allowable.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
meltdown coming for the Raiders. Carr was already showing cracks.
Enderdog
Footballguy
Wiki has a whole list of skeletons under Bieniemy's "Legal Issues" section. This is probably the highlight: According to the police report, while with his friends, Bieniemy put his hand on the attendant's neck, startling her. She told police he also made a comment about "a bunch of black males all at once being her worst nightmare,"[13] and that Bieniemy and his friends took off their pants and began urinating nearby.
Hm:
"Per Davis, general manager Mike Mayock will retain his title going forward but will now have 51% of the decision-making power on personnel moves, with Bisaccia at 49%. Before, it was Gruden 51%, Mayock 49%."
Would have thought it was 80/20 Gruden before. But still, guess it's now in Mayock we trust!
"Per Davis, general manager Mike Mayock will retain his title going forward but will now have 51% of the decision-making power on personnel moves, with Bisaccia at 49%. Before, it was Gruden 51%, Mayock 49%."
Would have thought it was 80/20 Gruden before. But still, guess it's now in Mayock we trust!
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I did note that and began to address it but dropped it.Not sure how the bolded is considered so funny, but... was referencing your term of tolerance toward a complete demographic of people based on color and then combatting racism. Some rich material out of you.
In this day and age you can say anything you want about anyone you want as long as they are White, Christian, Male, Conservative/Republican and Heterosexual. Old is questionable and not generally allowed by itself but if added with any combination of the the first 5 is is allowable. The only other excusable use is the "I belong to that group" exception but even that is losing it power as the "Cancel Culture" tries to outdo itself in virtue signaling the mobs purity.
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Chadstroma
Footballguy
Mayock press conference did shed light (by reading through the lines) of draft picks. Mayock said, in a couple of different ways, his job is to get the coaches the players they want. Take that and the above 51% thing and I think the early draft picks would definitely be more on Gruden than Mayock. As the picks got later in the draft more about Mayock selections than Gruden.
Mayock had high praise for Rich Bisaccia saying that he has endorsed him the past many times for HC jobs in both college and the NFL and is "one of the best leaders of men" he knows.
Chaka
Footballguy
there is so much wrong here not sure where to start or if its worth the effort....
if you don't think he is racist or homophobic, what exactly are you referring to by being dumb to send "this kind of stuff"....what do you think "this kind of stuff" was...and if it wasn't racist or homophobic, why would it be dumb to send....?
there were probably a lot of things that went into Nassib feeling comfortable about coming out...Gruden was probably a very small part of that...if any at all.....just because he didn't release or deactivate Nassib is not some feather in Gruden's cap here...
I'm not sure you meant how this came across in your post....internet/research is your friend....some of the info is out there....
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DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
dude said he wasn't going to try and change my mind. next sentence, he tries to change my mind.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
i already brought up the photos @Chadstroma
https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/800862-gruden-resigning/?do=findComment&comment=23641411
https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/800862-gruden-resigning/?do=findComment&comment=23641411
Chaka
Footballguy
Well I believe something can be stupid, uncalled for, hateful even without being racist or homophobic. I believed Gruden's explanation about his comments regarding DeSmith. Okay good, great, wonderful but then I read the second batch of leaked emails & #### that guy. He may not think he dislikes LGBTQ+ people but that's only because, at the time he didn't realize his dated perspective was hateful, which it certainly was.
It makes the excuse about why he refers to liars as rubber lips far less plausible. Even in 2011 to not recognize that referring to an African American person in such terms, even if his intention was otherwise, was highly offensive suggests a highly narcissistic person with low self awareness. Even worse, maybe he does refer to liars as "rubber lips", knew it was highly offensive to use that terminology about African Americans and decided to do it anyway. Either way that isn't a guy I want in my meeting rooms.
And I totally agree about Nassib, not releasing him could have been purely an act of self preservation. Can you imagine if Nassib came out and Gruden then released him? He would have been eviscerated worse than he is being right now. I am glad Gruden didn't release him because Nassib is a solid player in the d-line rotation. Then again if Gruden had released Nassib then Gruden would have been forced out that much sooner, which would also be a good outcome IMO.
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DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
i'm not confusing prejudice with racism. racism is so ingrained in us, that your statement of one must believe in racial superiority, in order to be racist, is laughable to me. your example of "a positive racial prejudice" is by definition, racist.
using your type of example, here's another. jews are good with money. positive? i guess. racist? i think so.
racist definition below.
ICON211
Footballguy
Some people use certain terms or offensive language to mean something other than what other people take it to mean. I'm not saying it's right. If he didn't realize it's not acceptable to use certain terms or words anymore that's dumb and shows a lack of awareness, but not necessarily bigoted behavior. I put more stock in people's actions over their word choice.
It's not a feather in his cap that he didn't release Nassib, but it shows how he actually reacted when there was a gay player on his team. And Gruden didn't know these emails were going to come out. If he truly was homophobic he could have reacted differently. There were people calling for Nassib to be released given his salary and lack of production last year. Gruden certainly could have had Ferrell active over him early in the season or not played him when he was active. He was on the field a ton and this shows me Gruden had a willingness to play who he thought were the best players regardless of other factors.
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Chadstroma
Footballguy
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
where am i disputing that? and what's your point? that i'm racist? ok.
this discussion started because i agreed with wilbon, when he said that every one has some racism in them. so again, what's your point?I think a better term would be "unconscious bias". Its something I had to learn about for my HR training in my line of work. We all have unconscious bias, no matter skin color, race, culture etc.... The key is recognizing it (self-awarenes), and addressing it in a positive manner.where am i disputing that? and what's your point? that i'm racist? ok.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
agreed. but i think that's merely sugar coating the word racism. but i like it. certainly sounds better.
massraider
Footballguy
I am as a liberal a bleeding heart as you will find, but put me behind a female Asian driver, and you will hear some racist sheet. So Wilbon is correct, but in terms of this team, it wasn't going to save Gruden.
I don't give a flying bucket of pig flops if he is actually racist.
Why do I care about that? I'm not a fan of the Las Vegas Grudens.
We can't read his mind, we can't read his heart, so we have to go by actions and words. His words rendered his actions moot to a lot of people, and he has gay and black players on the team, and not for nothing, the black ones tend to be important.
This is like Donald Sterling. He crossed a line you cannot cross.
Some calls are hard. This is not one of them.
I don't give a flying bucket of pig flops if he is actually racist.
Why do I care about that? I'm not a fan of the Las Vegas Grudens.
We can't read his mind, we can't read his heart, so we have to go by actions and words. His words rendered his actions moot to a lot of people, and he has gay and black players on the team, and not for nothing, the black ones tend to be important.
This is like Donald Sterling. He crossed a line you cannot cross.
Some calls are hard. This is not one of them.
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LawFitz
Footballguy
My take: he isn't a racist, but he does/did have homophobic language patterns and (at least in terms of NFL refereeing) a mysogynistic mindset. Sounds like most of my friends.
TVT 0 N S T A
Footballguy
I agree with @Chadstroma. I will add Gruden is just the scapegoat for all the issues that probably goes on in the league.
What is being swept under the rug is in most corporate structures considered a sex and exploitation scandal of the cheerleaders, but the league is playing on what everyone in this culture thinks is the worst - words. There are 2 sides to an email, the person sending it and the person receiving it. Am I expected to believe the person on the receiving end just deleted the email? They must have responded in a manor that made Gruden feel comfortable to air out his grievances in such a fashion.
We can sit here and talk about Deshaun Watson this, but it is an entire culture within the league. I am not worried about digging into it, because I love football and think employment and your employer is a choice. However, I will never let my daughters work for the NFL. This world picks and chooses who they want to blame and when they want to throw the flag at people's behavior; which is why I laugh at most of the causes and the "me too movement" because there are so many issues in our world, around exploitation and trafficking women and children but we are making sure Jon Gruden goes down for a couple emails sent out 10 years ago.
What is being swept under the rug is in most corporate structures considered a sex and exploitation scandal of the cheerleaders, but the league is playing on what everyone in this culture thinks is the worst - words. There are 2 sides to an email, the person sending it and the person receiving it. Am I expected to believe the person on the receiving end just deleted the email? They must have responded in a manor that made Gruden feel comfortable to air out his grievances in such a fashion.
We can sit here and talk about Deshaun Watson this, but it is an entire culture within the league. I am not worried about digging into it, because I love football and think employment and your employer is a choice. However, I will never let my daughters work for the NFL. This world picks and chooses who they want to blame and when they want to throw the flag at people's behavior; which is why I laugh at most of the causes and the "me too movement" because there are so many issues in our world, around exploitation and trafficking women and children but we are making sure Jon Gruden goes down for a couple emails sent out 10 years ago.
TVT 0 N S T A
Footballguy
I tried to change your mind? I was telling you Wilbon sucks - never once got into the race debate with you; which was the context of the "I am not going to try and change your mind" statement. Simple minds = Simple Statements and I will be sure to address you in the way you can comprehend going forward.DA RAIDERS said:
I would just like to mention Judaism isn't a race - so... where do you go from here? Judaism is a religion and an ethnicity. What you are referencing in your statement above would be considered "prejudice" again - as was originally stated, more prevalent in the world than actual racism.DA RAIDERS said:
If you would like to make reference of the type of races - here goes.
Asian
Black or African American (although, people are trying to change both terms)
Hispanic or Latino
American Indian
Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander
White
madshot31
Footballguy
I have been with my wife for a decade now and she loves that I am a Raider fan. After they were up in the final seconds of the raven game, she was like "they can't #### this up now....(peers in my direction) ..who am I kidding" Then she was giggling as they proceeded to self destruct.Chadstroma said:
After the 3-0 start her was response was. "The are still ####ty." She thinks all Raider fan are essential the bleacher fans from Major League. She loves seeing the glimmer of hope in my logical eyes at the start of every season only because she can see it get snuffed out.
She's a Rodgers fan.
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Chaka
Footballguy
Wow. Good article and quite scathing.
I think he underestimates the draw the Raiders will be for head coaches but overall a really interesting read.
Totally forgot Jordy Nelson was a Raider for a half minute.
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