2022-23 NBA Thread: “you’ll never let me down like the Heat did”, Miami fan says to giant pile of cocaine (3 Viewers)

[mr. furley]

Looking at box score from last night; Steph was -26 with 3 turnovers and Klay was -23 with 6 turnovers.

That seems ungood.

No more meaningless stat than a single game +/-

Only useful if you take it for five-man units over much larger sample sizes

i don't know nuthin about nuthin, but i always hesitate when someone references +/-

"Klay was -38 in 19 minutes!"

uhh.. ok. they won by 17, though??

 

[Jayrod]

Looking at box score from last night; Steph was -26 with 3 turnovers and Klay was -23 with 6 turnovers.

That seems ungood.

No more meaningless stat than a single game +/-

Only useful if you take it for five-man units over much larger sample sizes

i don't know nuthin about nuthin, but i always hesitate when someone references +/-

"Klay was -38 in 19 minutes!"

uhh.. ok. they won by 17, though??

+/- is just one thing to look at, but I like that it takes into account how the team did when a player was on the floor.

Curry and Klay both being in the -20's means they got their butts kicked when those guys were playing. Sure it isn't all their fault, but when you are 1/5 guys on the court it means more than nothing. Maybe not a bad thing to do is take it and divide by 5? or divide it by the minutes played? Either way it is just one piece of the puzzle, but anything worse than -20 is a very big number.

 

[Capella]

Note: thread title not in regards to any actual Miami fan running crypto scams, on this board or not.

 

[identikit]

Note: thread title not in regards to any actual Miami fan, on this board or not.

So the Disclaimer Era begins....

 

[hagmania]

I would love to run a crypto scam and then watch Jimmy God in the playoffs.

 

[trader jake]

can't eject the owner, so you toss some random guy 2 rows back who put a finger on Jokic

Reminded me of the classic quote from Jerry Tarkanian, "The NCAA is so mad at Kentucky, they're gonna give Cleveland state 2 more years probation."

No more meaningless stat than a single game +/-

Only useful if you take it for five-man units over much larger sample sizes

Best +/- of all time? Tim Duncan, lifetime +/- of exactly +10,000. When the best all-time players are discussed, he's listed lower than he should be way too often.

 

[Pipes]

Are they seriously suggesting Joker should be suspended for that? Pho’s owner is a worse flopper than Booker.

NBA doesn't want its players shoving fans

Bad on both sides. Ishbia a complete doosh here no doubt but what is Joker doing? He had nothing to gain to go into the crowd and get the ball. His job is to play hoops not retrieve errant balls.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Are they seriously suggesting Joker should be suspended for that? Pho’s owner is a worse flopper than Booker.

NBA doesn't want its players shoving fans

That "fan" touched Jokic first, and if you are a player that close to the fans and one touches you, you have no idea what their intention is. Bottom line: don't touch the players.

 

[Tau837]

Are they seriously suggesting Joker should be suspended for that? Pho’s owner is a worse flopper than Booker.

NBA doesn't want its players shoving fans

Bad on both sides. Ishbia a complete doosh here no doubt but what is Joker doing? He had nothing to gain to go into the crowd and get the ball. His job is to play hoops not retrieve errant balls.

Exactly. If a ball goes into the crowd, and a fan is holding it, that is for refs, and, if needed, security to deal with. Jokic had no business trying to take the ball there.

 

[mr. furley]

Looking at box score from last night; Steph was -26 with 3 turnovers and Klay was -23 with 6 turnovers.

That seems ungood.

No more meaningless stat than a single game +/-

Only useful if you take it for five-man units over much larger sample sizes

i don't know nuthin about nuthin, but i always hesitate when someone references +/-

"Klay was -38 in 19 minutes!"

uhh.. ok. they won by 17, though??

+/- is just one thing to look at, but I like that it takes into account how the team did when a player was on the floor.

Curry and Klay both being in the -20's means they got their butts kicked when those guys were playing. Sure it isn't all their fault, but when you are 1/5 guys on the court it means more than nothing. Maybe not a bad thing to do is take it and divide by 5? or divide it by the minutes played? Either way it is just one piece of the puzzle, but anything worse than -20 is a very big number.

it just seems like a made up number that can be tacked on to a headline to outrage fans

i get how it's calculated, but the only thing people consider is the number. there's never any clarification of how that number came to be.


Embiid's +/- last night was 0.

he went for 34 and 13 with 4 assists. he was a net neutral??

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Looking at box score from last night; Steph was -26 with 3 turnovers and Klay was -23 with 6 turnovers.

That seems ungood.

No more meaningless stat than a single game +/-

Only useful if you take it for five-man units over much larger sample sizes

i don't know nuthin about nuthin, but i always hesitate when someone references +/-

"Klay was -38 in 19 minutes!"

uhh.. ok. they won by 17, though??

+/- is just one thing to look at, but I like that it takes into account how the team did when a player was on the floor.

Curry and Klay both being in the -20's means they got their butts kicked when those guys were playing. Sure it isn't all their fault, but when you are 1/5 guys on the court it means more than nothing. Maybe not a bad thing to do is take it and divide by 5? or divide it by the minutes played? Either way it is just one piece of the puzzle, but anything worse than -20 is a very big number.

it just seems like a made up number that can be tacked on to a headline to outrage fans

i get how it's calculated, but the only thing people consider is the number. there's never any clarification of how that number came to be.


Embiid's +/- last night was 0.

he went for 34 and 13 with 4 assists. he was a net neutral??

James Harden barely / rarely plays defense. He could have an offensive explosion and still be a net neutral. For an extreme example, see Jordan Poole.

 

[caustic]

Over the course of a season +/- averages out to become a useful stat, but the single game figures are extremely noisy. Heavily influenced by lineup decisions, teammate play, shooting luck, etc. Probably shouldn't put too much stock in them, although I, too, am probably guilty of citing these figures to win dumb arguments online.

 

[Instinctive]

I tend to find +/- has always been a bit more useful for role players than for star level players, possibly starters too. Its best use is to identify potential lineup combos that could be matching up really well. We used it to ask ourselves if someone outside the core, not really gonna change, parts of the rotation might be getting overlooked or overplayed.

 

[General Malaise]

Stolen from sports talk radio but the NBA commissioner should fine Ishbia $5,000 for flopping.

 

[zoobird]

Best +/- of all time? Tim Duncan, lifetime +/- of exactly +10,000. When the best all-time players are discussed, he's listed lower than he should be way too often.

Been meaning to ask about this for a while, but your mention of Duncan reminded me...

I wasn't following the NBA very closely for most of Duncan's career, so don't have much insight here, but...looking at his stats, I'm not really seeing the case for why he's considered a top 10-15 player by many. What am I missing?

 

[General Malaise]

Best +/- of all time? Tim Duncan, lifetime +/- of exactly +10,000. When the best all-time players are discussed, he's listed lower than he should be way too often.

Been meaning to ask about this for a while, but your mention of Duncan reminded me...

I wasn't following the NBA very closely for most of Duncan's career, so don't have much insight here, but...looking at his stats, I'm not really seeing the case for why he's considered a top 10-15 player by many. What am I missing?

Other than 5 rings, 3 NBA Finals MVP, 2 NBA MVPs, 15 All Stars? Not much, I guess.

 

[Jayrod]

I wasn't following the NBA very closely for most of Duncan's career, so don't have much insight here, but...looking at his stats, I'm not really seeing the case for why he's considered a top 10-15 player by many. What am I missing?

Other than 5 rings, 3 NBA Finals MVP, 2 NBA MVPs, 15 All Stars? Not much, I guess.

Also, 8x 1st team and 7x 2nd team All-D selections. #6 All-time in total rebounds and #5 all time in total blocks, with the #2 all time Defensive Winshares and the #3 all time Career Defensive Rating.

He was phenomenal at all 3 phases of the game and he and Popovich were the NBA equivalent of Brady/Belichick.

 

[General Malaise]

I wasn't following the NBA very closely for most of Duncan's career, so don't have much insight here, but...looking at his stats, I'm not really seeing the case for why he's considered a top 10-15 player by many. What am I missing?

Other than 5 rings, 3 NBA Finals MVP, 2 NBA MVPs, 15 All Stars? Not much, I guess.

Also, 8x 1st team and 7x 2nd team All-D selections. #6 All-time in total rebounds and #5 all time in total blocks, with the #2 all time Defensive Winshares and the #3 all time Career Defensive Rating.

He was phenomenal at all 3 phases of the game and he and Popovich were the NBA equivalent of Brady/Belichick.

I loved watching him play live when the Spurs would roll into Portland....just such a fundamentally sound player. Averaged a double/double for his career and 2.2 blocks per game. My heavens.

 

[caustic]

Best +/- of all time? Tim Duncan, lifetime +/- of exactly +10,000. When the best all-time players are discussed, he's listed lower than he should be way too often.

Been meaning to ask about this for a while, but your mention of Duncan reminded me...

I wasn't following the NBA very closely for most of Duncan's career, so don't have much insight here, but...looking at his stats, I'm not really seeing the case for why he's considered a top 10-15 player by many. What am I missing?

He was never a nuclear offensive player, but his offensive stats were still quite good considering the turtle-paced style of play in the early 2000s. His calling card was incredible defense though, which is hard to evaluate from box score stats. Another big factor is longevity -- he was very good for a very long time, still an all star at age 38. The Spurs were also wildly successful over the course of his career, with a winning percentage of 71% from 1998-2016. That's a full 10 points higher than the second best team over that span (Mavs, 61%).

 

[mr. furley]

Best +/- of all time? Tim Duncan, lifetime +/- of exactly +10,000. When the best all-time players are discussed, he's listed lower than he should be way too often.

Been meaning to ask about this for a while, but your mention of Duncan reminded me...

I wasn't following the NBA very closely for most of Duncan's career, so don't have much insight here, but...looking at his stats, I'm not really seeing the case for why he's considered a top 10-15 player by many. What am I missing?

he's one of those dudes that consistently did everything right at a very high level but didn't have a bunch of splashy highlight plays to make Sportscenter.

Tim Duncan 46 / 22 with 7 blocks and 4 assists is phenomenal, but Vince Carter threw down a windmill dunk in the game so that's what gets talked about instead.

 

[trader jake]

Best +/- of all time? Tim Duncan, lifetime +/- of exactly +10,000. When the best all-time players are discussed, he's listed lower than he should be way too often.

Been meaning to ask about this for a while, but your mention of Duncan reminded me...

I wasn't following the NBA very closely for most of Duncan's career, so don't have much insight here, but...looking at his stats, I'm not really seeing the case for why he's considered a top 10-15 player by many. What am I missing?

Other than 5 rings, 3 NBA Finals MVP, 2 NBA MVPs, 15 All Stars? Not much, I guess.

Those high level achievements are notable, and Duncan's case could be made with those alone. However, all of that stuff came wrapped in the near perfect hoops collective of organizational focus where the team came first, he was coached hard and set the tone for others, played with a high motor, and did so with exceptional skill at both ends of the court.

Tim Duncan could have fit with any other collection of players, in any era, and the mix would work because of his skills. To have Duncan on a team was as close of a guarantee to a top seed and a shot at a championship as any other player not named Kareem, Magic, Bird, Jordan or LeBron.

To occasionally see (admittedly great) players like Kobe Bryant, Oscar Robertson, or Dr J listed above him on any all-time best NBA players list is grossly incorrect (I once saw Allen Iverson listed above him ). Duncan never pushed his own narrative, nor seeked the limelight ... so I fear his status long-term will take a hit in the minds of some rankers. It shouldn't. He's closer to the starting 5 than the outskirts of the team roster.

 

[SWC]

i like plus minus as a stat and i also like looking at plus minus for groups of five in high school it is pretty useful to tell you who your best rotation is take that to the bank brohans

 

[SWC]

tim duncan the big fundamental is one of my favorite players of all time and is completely undderated in greatest lists all he did was dominate and win for decades take that to the bank brohans

 

[zoobird]

Thanks all - didn't realize quite how dominant he was defensively. Also, just took a look, and hadn't realized how relatively bad the offensive efficiency of all the great big men before the last few years looked.

 

[Anarchy99]

I tend to find +/- has always been a bit more useful for role players than for star level players, possibly starters too. Its best use is to identify potential lineup combos that could be matching up really well. We used it to ask ourselves if someone outside the core, not really gonna change, parts of the rotation might be getting overlooked or overplayed.

I find the combination of analytics stats many times don't make a ton of sense. In the series so far . . .

Paul Reed - 167 ORating - 125 DRating (-2 +/-)
Joel Embiid - 116 - 119 (-31 +/-)
Team - 115 - 126.2

At a quick glance, that makes Reed look like a way better option than the league MVP. PJ Tucker has averaged 5 ppg and has an ORating of 130. That's 5 points higher than Harden.

Of the Celtics players, 7 of the 8 players in their regular rotation have a higher offensive rating than defensive rating (Smart is 109 / 121). As a team, they are 126.2 / 115. I get that the blowout mucked up the statistics in a small sample size. Rob Williams always has crazy splits . . . 188 / 108. He's +24 playing less than half as much as JT and JB (who are +33 and +32).

 

[Anarchy99]

Other Duncan numbers . . . combining regular and post season numbers, 5th in VORP, 6th in total win shares, 9th in MVP vote shares, and 12th in total points scored (6th most in the post season). 17th in regular season PER.

 

[Desert_Power]

That whole 5-10 area of the all-time list is always a pretty tough one to rank. Duncan definitely has an argument there. So do contemporaries like Kobe, Shaq, and now Steph. I think what Tim did with the Spurs is pretty highly rated by most fans.

 

[Anarchy99]

The other thing about SA with Duncan, the titles were spaced out and the rosters were usually pretty different. (Listed by minutes played)

2013-14: Belinelli, Parker, Diaw, Leonard, Green, Manu, Mills
2006-07: Parker, Bowen, Manu, Finley, Barry
2004-05: Parker, Bowen, Manu, Nesterovic, Barry
2002-03: Parker, Bowen, Stephen Jackson, Rose, Robinson
1998-99: Avery Johnson, Robinson, Elliot, Elie, Jaren Jackson

 

[Frostillicus]

Duncan was also not nearly as good as KG, he just had a better system/players/coach/front office.

 

[Gr00vus]

Duncan had incredible floor awareness, one of the best passing big men ever. He could orchestrate a team offense from the high or low post. That concept is basically extinct, which is part of the reason he's not appreciated as much as he should be these days.

 

[General Malaise]

How the hell did a 5'10" Mat Ishbia make the Michigan State roster as a player????

 

[Long Ball Larry]

I tend to find +/- has always been a bit more useful for role players than for star level players, possibly starters too. Its best use is to identify potential lineup combos that could be matching up really well. We used it to ask ourselves if someone outside the core, not really gonna change, parts of the rotation might be getting overlooked or overplayed.

I find the combination of analytics stats many times don't make a ton of sense. In the series so far . . .

Paul Reed - 167 ORating - 125 DRating (-2 +/-)

makes sense to me. his name is basketball paul, for god's sake.

 

[Tau837]

Duncan was also not nearly as good as KG, he just had a better system/players/coach/front office.

You forgot this:

 

[Judge Smails]

Wish I unloaded at the Lakers high point with odds to win NBA title. Even start or playoffs it’s gone from +2200 to +500. Imagine earlier this year.

 

[Gr00vus]

Wish I unloaded at the Lakers high point with odds to win NBA title. Even start or playoffs it’s gone from +2200 to +500. Imagine earlier this year.

Putting money on them to win the championship before they redid their roster in the Westbrook jettisoning would have been absolutely stupid. Seeing how the team worked after that, especially the few regular seasons games they had everyone available - then it became something more than just a super fan bet.

 

[The Z Machine]

To occasionally see (admittedly great) players like Kobe Bryant, Oscar Robertson, or Dr J listed above him on any all-time best NBA players list is grossly incorrect (I once saw Allen Iverson listed above him ). Duncan never pushed his own narrative, nor seeked the limelight ... so I fear his status long-term will take a hit in the minds of some rankers. It shouldn't. He's closer to the starting 5 than the outskirts of the team roster.

Very correct. He was also overshadowed by prime Shaq when every team had to game plan around how to stop Shaq. He was so dominant in that stretch of 1999-2005.

 

[The Z Machine]

Westbrook jettisoning

Dude was such a net negative, it wasn't even funny.

 

[Capella]

Note: thread title not in regards to any actual Miami fan, on this board or not.

So the Disclaimer Era begins....

Don’t need anymore people complaining. Not trying to get us shut down here.

 

[Synthesizer]

How the hell did a 5'10" Mat Ishbia make the Michigan State roster as a player????

Financial transaction only, it had nothing to do with basketball skills. His dad is a billionaire and MSU has received over $30 million in donations from the Isbia family.

 

[Gatorman]

Note: thread title not in regards to any actual Miami fan running crypto scams, on this board or not.

:reported:

 

[Gatorman]

I tend to find +/- has always been a bit more useful for role players than for star level players, possibly starters too. Its best use is to identify potential lineup combos that could be matching up really well. We used it to ask ourselves if someone outside the core, not really gonna change, parts of the rotation might be getting overlooked or overplayed.

yep. Shane Battier likely one of the best +/- guys and it took a while for people to notice in the pre analytics era.

 

[Zow]

That whole 5-10 area of the all-time list is always a pretty tough one to rank. Duncan definitely has an argument there. So do contemporaries like Kobe, Shaq, and now Steph. I think what Tim did with the Spurs is pretty highly rated by most fans.

Yeah I did this the other day and it’s so hard. I think I had Duncan at nine.

 

[Zow]

That whole 5-10 area of the all-time list is always a pretty tough one to rank. Duncan definitely has an argument there. So do contemporaries like Kobe, Shaq, and now Steph. I think what Tim did with the Spurs is pretty highly rated by most fans.

Yeah I did this the other day and it’s so hard. I think I had Duncan at nine.

Correction, Duncan was ten.

My top ten:
MJ
Lebron
Kareem
Russell
Magic
Shaq
Wilt
Kobe
Bird
Duncan

 

[SoBeDad]

How the hell did a 5'10" Mat Ishbia make the Michigan State roster as a player????

How did 5'10" Morris Enformes get into Wharton as a recruited basketball player? $300,000 in bribes from Medicare billion $$$ fraudster Philip Enformes to Jerome Allen, former Celtic assistant, now a Piston assistant.

 

[thecatch]

How the hell did a 5'10" Mat Ishbia make the Michigan State roster as a player????

Financial transaction only, it had nothing to do with basketball skills. His dad is a billionaire and MSU has received over $30 million in donations from the Isbia family.

I saw they made big donations in the last couple years. Is that what you are talking about, or were there other donations when the kid was enrolling 20+ years ago?

 

[identikit]

How the hell did a 5'10" Mat Ishbia make the Michigan State roster as a player????

He was a sneak-on

 

[ShamrockPride]

I'd love to see the average ratings for this MIA-NYK series vs the other 3.

 

[The Gator]

I'd love to see the average ratings for this MIA-NYK series vs the other 3.

Only series I skip for hockey

 

[identikit]

Knicks trying to win this game

 

[Desert_Power]

This whole Joker-Ishbia thing just reminds me how much better the bubble was without all of these guys court-side.