the moops
Footballguy
Hmm. I think Jrue, White, Brown, Tatum, Porzingis will be the most prevalent starting 5 this season
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2023-24 NBA (Playoffs!) Thread: Message board poster furiously types out one more horrible post before thread closes (4 Viewers)
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msudaisy26
Footballguy
And the Pistons.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I think White comes off the bench and Horford or someone else starts.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Far from a Boston fan. I thought, since the Finals loss, they needed to move one of their big 3. Smart seemed to regress slightly defensively while becoming a way too big part of their offense last year.
I applaud the move to shake things up so interestingly, particularly since I love players like Jrue.
I applaud the move to shake things up so interestingly, particularly since I love players like Jrue.
Kev4029
Footballguy
I would be blown away if Horford is regularly in the starting lineup during the regular season alongside Porzingis. Horford is too old to start and also play backup 5 and Porzingis is too injury prone to play those kind of minutes. My bet would be that Tatum is the starting 4, White starts a guard, and Horford plays nearly exclusively backup 5 until the last 5 minutes of the game. Between the health concerns of Porzingis and Horford and the lack up realistic options at the 5, I don't think they have much choice.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
If the Celtics are looking for a starting #4, Gordon Hayward is certainly available for a comeback. Although, I remained stumped how a contender hasn't made a move for PJ Washington. He has the length to play the 5 and is pretty good from deep (36.6% career)
Kev4029
Footballguy
Outside of the Celtics top 6, the only contract that they have that is more than pretty much a minimum contract is Payton Prichard at a whopping $4.03m. Unless they trade White or Horford, they really have no ability to make a trade for a rotation player.
Kev4029
Footballguy
It was long and I am lazy - summarized by ChatGPT in 300 words:
In the competitive world of NBA reporting, two names stand out: Adrian Wojnarowski, known as Woj, and Shams Charania, or simply Shams. Woj, at 54, is ESPN's star NBA reporter, while 29-year-old Shams is the young prodigy at the Athletic, rising rapidly from his roots in the Chicago suburbs. The two dominate the NBA news space, breaking news on player trades, drafts, and more. Their influence is so profound that one former league executive commented they are the only NBA reporters who matter.
Their relationship adds intrigue. Woj was once Shams's mentor, hiring him during his early career, and the dynamics between them now evoke the tension-filled relationship between Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker. There are implicit lines of competition, with the Athletic discouraging sharing Woj tweets and ESPN discouraging sharing Athletic stories.
Woj and Shams's rivalry isn't just about ego; it's about economic viability in the age of digital media. Their news breaks drive significant traffic and engagement for their respective platforms. Woj has a reported five-year contract worth around $7 million annually, while Shams is nearing a $2 million combined salary from the Athletic and TV network Stadium.
Both reporters have faced controversy. Shams's work with sportsbook FanDuel has been criticized for potential conflicts of interest. Woj, on the other hand, has faced accusations of being particularly favorable in his coverage to his sources.
Despite their domination in the NBA news space, the pair doesn't seem to engage publicly. NBA reporter Frank Isola noted, “It’s the only real rivalry left in the NBA.”
Their influence has changed NBA journalism. The nature of their roles, heavily intertwined with league dynamics and the race to break news first, has somewhat shifted the landscape from investigative reporting to transactional news. Their rapid, tweet-first style of journalism has left traditional beat writers in the dust, focusing more on the "cotton candy of news" rather than deeper issues within the NBA.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Does anyone think beat writers aren't just doing "transactional news" too? Investigative journalism (in real time) for sports has never really been a thing.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
I understand. It was just some "trade for our players" shtick from a Hornets fan about to watch them lose another play-in game.
Boston
Footballguy
Celts have a 6.2 mil trade exception from the Grant Williams sign and trade...here are their draft assets:
Celtics still have these trade assets left to make more roster upgrades
The Celtics still have lots of first-round picks (including swaps) to dangle on the trade market for further roster upgrades.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Which is why they have to find that backup or 3rd big.
You don't want to make all of these big moves to force your best player to play out of position. Tatum is not a PF and forcing him there for the majority of the season makes no sense.
the moops
Footballguy
The most used lineup by far, last year, was Smart, White, Brown, Tatum, Horford. It had a +10.5 net rating.
the moops
Footballguy
Here are some of the other likely PF in the eastern conference.
Bey, Finney-Smith, PJ Washington, Patrick Williams, Toppin, Banchero, Kuzma
The two big lineup of Horford and Williams is not coming back as a starting unit. Horford is getting old, and there are only a handful of teams where it makes sense to play him at the 4 (Giannnis and the Bucks example A). The good power forwards these days are guys like Tatum, Durant, etc.
I agree they could use some big man depth, but they are unlikely to spend significant assets to acquire one, and therefore however that 3rd/4th big is, is very unlikely going to push Tatum down to the 3 for many lineups.
Bey, Finney-Smith, PJ Washington, Patrick Williams, Toppin, Banchero, Kuzma
The two big lineup of Horford and Williams is not coming back as a starting unit. Horford is getting old, and there are only a handful of teams where it makes sense to play him at the 4 (Giannnis and the Bucks example A). The good power forwards these days are guys like Tatum, Durant, etc.
I agree they could use some big man depth, but they are unlikely to spend significant assets to acquire one, and therefore however that 3rd/4th big is, is very unlikely going to push Tatum down to the 3 for many lineups.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
PF just determnes who he is going to guard. With everyone going positionless the 4 guys on the outside can be mixed and matched however you want. GSW is going to be sliding Klay to the 'PF' alot this year.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Yeah, PF is mostly a wing position these days.
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Related Celtics content:
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Inexcusable for a professional athlete.
Jayrod
Footballguy
That was never the plan, but was done out of necessity as TimeLord only played in 35 regular season games. They used that lineup for less than 11% of the regular season minutes. The Celtics used 26 different starting lineups throughout the regular season. They resorted to starting Grant Williams at PF and even Blake Griffin started for 12 games. They were short a big man almost every night last season.
The most used lineup by far, last year, was Smart, White, Brown, Tatum, Horford. It had a +10.5 net rating.
This last regular season, Tatum played SF for 53% of the time and PF only 34% of the time (the rest at SG). He is a primarily a small forward, wing, perimeter player, whatever you want to call it. He is best when playing outside-in and guarding wings. He has the athleticism and length to play PF, but it isn't preferable and he really only spent a lot of time at PF for 1 season of his career (2019-20). For the past 3 seasons he has settled into a roughly 2/3 ratio of time at either wing spot with 1/3 at PF.
Here are some of the top PF's in the NBA today: Giannis, KD, AD, KAT, Zion, JJJ, Scottie Barnes, Mobley, John Collins, Aaron Gordon & Julius Randle. Tatum does not have the bulk and strength (nor the desire) to bang with the likes of that group down low.
I think expecting that for most of the season is a bad idea and I'm guessing the Celtics feel the same way. They don't want to count on Tatum at the 4 on a regular basis as has been evidenced by their rotations for the past 3 years. Also, Horford openly stated he didn't want to play center but PF as his primary position many years ago and was supposedly one of the reasons he left Boston for Philly. I'm sure when needed they will go to their version of the "death lineup" but there was a reason the Warriors didn't run that small-ball lineup out there for heavy minutes back in their heyday...it wears out guys playing bigger for the long-haul.
the moops
Footballguy
Just a side note - but Tatum plays better defense than just about anyone against KD. He also apparently put on 11 pounds of muscle this offseason (I know, greatest shape of his life).
And while some of those matchups are not ideal, how the hell does AD or Zion or KAT or a whole host of other names defend Tatum on the other end? Tatum is a top 5 offensive player in the league, who when engaged is an excellent defender. You force the other team to make the decision on whether they can live with the likes of AD or KAT chasing Tatum all over the court.
Also - John Collins?
Jayrod
Footballguy
How does Durant play, would you say outside-in or inside-out?Just a side note - but Tatum plays better defense than just about anyone against KD. He also apparently put on 11 pounds of muscle this offseason (I know, greatest shape of his life).
And while some of those matchups are not ideal, how the hell does AD or Zion or KAT or a whole host of other names defend Tatum on the other end? Tatum is a top 5 offensive player in the league, who when engaged is an excellent defender. You force the other team to make the decision on whether they can live with the likes of AD or KAT chasing Tatum all over the court.
Also - John Collins?
Also, if you are correct, why don't the Celtics play him at PF more than 1/3 of the time despite only having their starting center for 35/82 games? Why don't more teams just go small and run the bigs off the floor every night? I'm not saying he couldn't or wouldn't be highly effective doing what you are saying, but there are reasons why they don't want to do that.
I'm just not sure if you are understanding the point here. The Celtics AND Tatum himself don't want him to play extensive minutes at the PF spot as his primary position. They may have to do that out of necessity, but it isn't preferable and I fully expect a move to either get a better starting big or a backup that can be productive with heavy minutes to avoid just that. The physical exertion required to guard bigger guys in the post, work to rebound and then use speed and quickness to score is greater than when he can guard a perimeter player, rebound when opportune and use his size to score or simply shoot over smaller defenders.
Tatum isn't an energizer bunny type who just moves all the time on offense. His game is best when he is using straight line drives, working in the intermediate post and shooting 3's.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Side note; I like Collins as a player quite a bit (he had a bad season last year), but he is making $78.5M over the next 3 seasons. $26M/year seems like a lot for him.
Also - John Collins?
These two are doing more PR for the sources than they are reporting. I don’t think that will shock anyone but the scale at which two people control the entire information ecosystem in the league was slightly surprising to me. ESPN and Athletic news rooms are spiking stories for fear of upsetting a Woj/Shams source. Other reporters can’t break stories because once they reach out to someone for confirmation, the source calls Woj instead out of fear of upsetting him. And it’s not clear what real value these guys are actually providing fans in the first place.
the moops
Footballguy
How does Durant play, would you say outside-in or inside-out?Just a side note - but Tatum plays better defense than just about anyone against KD. He also apparently put on 11 pounds of muscle this offseason (I know, greatest shape of his life).
And while some of those matchups are not ideal, how the hell does AD or Zion or KAT or a whole host of other names defend Tatum on the other end? Tatum is a top 5 offensive player in the league, who when engaged is an excellent defender. You force the other team to make the decision on whether they can live with the likes of AD or KAT chasing Tatum all over the court.
Also - John Collins?
Also, if you are correct, why don't the Celtics play him at PF more than 1/3 of the time despite only having their starting center for 35/82 games? Why don't more teams just go small and run the bigs off the floor every night? I'm not saying he couldn't or wouldn't be highly effective doing what you are saying, but there are reasons why they don't want to do that.
I'm just not sure if you are understanding the point here. The Celtics AND Tatum himself don't want him to play extensive minutes at the PF spot as his primary position. They may have to do that out of necessity, but it isn't preferable and I fully expect a move to either get a better starting big or a backup that can be productive with heavy minutes to avoid just that. The physical exertion required to guard bigger guys in the post, work to rebound and then use speed and quickness to score is greater than when he can guard a perimeter player, rebound when opportune and use his size to score or simply shoot over smaller defenders.
Tatum isn't an energizer bunny type who just moves all the time on offense. His game is best when he is using straight line drives, working in the intermediate post and shooting 3's.
The team is really ****ing good with Tatum at the 4 and one big. 50 games last year, they had a Smart, White, Brown, Tatum, Horford starting 5. They went 30-20 in those games
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
If BOS wasn't prepared to shift him to more minutes at the four they wouldn't have made the moves that they did.How does Durant play, would you say outside-in or inside-out?Just a side note - but Tatum plays better defense than just about anyone against KD. He also apparently put on 11 pounds of muscle this offseason (I know, greatest shape of his life).
And while some of those matchups are not ideal, how the hell does AD or Zion or KAT or a whole host of other names defend Tatum on the other end? Tatum is a top 5 offensive player in the league, who when engaged is an excellent defender. You force the other team to make the decision on whether they can live with the likes of AD or KAT chasing Tatum all over the court.
Also - John Collins?
Also, if you are correct, why don't the Celtics play him at PF more than 1/3 of the time despite only having their starting center for 35/82 games? Why don't more teams just go small and run the bigs off the floor every night? I'm not saying he couldn't or wouldn't be highly effective doing what you are saying, but there are reasons why they don't want to do that.
I'm just not sure if you are understanding the point here. The Celtics AND Tatum himself don't want him to play extensive minutes at the PF spot as his primary position. They may have to do that out of necessity, but it isn't preferable and I fully expect a move to either get a better starting big or a backup that can be productive with heavy minutes to avoid just that. The physical exertion required to guard bigger guys in the post, work to rebound and then use speed and quickness to score is greater than when he can guard a perimeter player, rebound when opportune and use his size to score or simply shoot over smaller defenders.
Tatum isn't an energizer bunny type who just moves all the time on offense. His game is best when he is using straight line drives, working in the intermediate post and shooting 3's.
Kev4029
Footballguy
According to Basketball Reference, Tatum spent 63% of the playoffs at PF last year and has played over a third of his career minutes at PF.That was never the plan, but was done out of necessity as TimeLord only played in 35 regular season games. They used that lineup for less than 11% of the regular season minutes. The Celtics used 26 different starting lineups throughout the regular season. They resorted to starting Grant Williams at PF and even Blake Griffin started for 12 games. They were short a big man almost every night last season.
The most used lineup by far, last year, was Smart, White, Brown, Tatum, Horford. It had a +10.5 net rating.
This last regular season, Tatum played SF for 53% of the time and PF only 34% of the time (the rest at SG). He is a primarily a small forward, wing, perimeter player, whatever you want to call it. He is best when playing outside-in and guarding wings. He has the athleticism and length to play PF, but it isn't preferable and he really only spent a lot of time at PF for 1 season of his career (2019-20). For the past 3 seasons he has settled into a roughly 2/3 ratio of time at either wing spot with 1/3 at PF.
Here are some of the top PF's in the NBA today: Giannis, KD, AD, KAT, Zion, JJJ, Scottie Barnes, Mobley, John Collins, Aaron Gordon & Julius Randle. Tatum does not have the bulk and strength (nor the desire) to bang with the likes of that group down low.
I think expecting that for most of the season is a bad idea and I'm guessing the Celtics feel the same way. They don't want to count on Tatum at the 4 on a regular basis as has been evidenced by their rotations for the past 3 years. Also, Horford openly stated he didn't want to play center but PF as his primary position many years ago and was supposedly one of the reasons he left Boston for Philly. I'm sure when needed they will go to their version of the "death lineup" but there was a reason the Warriors didn't run that small-ball lineup out there for heavy minutes back in their heyday...it wears out guys playing bigger for the long-haul.
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
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Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
I’m not sure that’s actually real
I’m sure it’s possible, just saying it doesn’t necessarily seem well-sources
msudaisy26
Footballguy
But did he at least lead the backups in scoring?
Yo Mama
Footballguy
98% usage rate
mr. furley
Footballguy
clearly doing calf and lat stretches here
Major
Footballguy
That's gotta be a deep fake
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
Ummm you aren't reading that correct. That group started 30 games and they went 20-10. It was their most used, but not 50 times, 30.
The team is really ****ing good with Tatum at the 4 and one big. 50 games last year, they had a Smart, White, Brown, Tatum, Horford starting 5. They went 30-20 in those games
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
I'm not sure that it makes a huge difference what anyone in the Celtics "wants" for their best lineups in a vacuum. I can't imagine that they can play Horford more than 25 minutes a game during the regular season and make sure he is good to go for the playoffs. He may close some games, but starting just doesn't seem to make sense, unless he's going to play like the first 6 minutes and like 3 minutes in 2nd quarter. I guess it could happen, but the closing and playoff lineups are way more important than who is starting in the regular season anyway.Ummm you aren't reading that correct. That group started 30 games and they went 20-10. It was their most used, but not 50 times, 30.
The team is really ****ing good with Tatum at the 4 and one big. 50 games last year, they had a Smart, White, Brown, Tatum, Horford starting 5. They went 30-20 in those games
the moops
Footballguy
Ummm you aren't reading that correct. That group started 30 games and they went 20-10. It was their most used, but not 50 times, 30.
The team is really ****ing good with Tatum at the 4 and one big. 50 games last year, they had a Smart, White, Brown, Tatum, Horford starting 5. They went 30-20 in those games
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Ummm you aren't reading that correct. That group started 30 games and they went 20-10. It was their most used, but not 50 times, 30.
The team is really ****ing good with Tatum at the 4 and one big. 50 games last year, they had a Smart, White, Brown, Tatum, Horford starting 5. They went 30-20 in those games
General Malaise
Footballguy
Dame filed for divorce from his wife. Lots of nasty rumors swirling around about it too. Have to wonder how much that played a part in his request for a trade, although I think it was inevitable after they took Scoot.
They've been together a long time, though I think they just got married in 2021. I saw the two of them dining together at BWW a year or so ago. Doesn't quite look like the reality TV NBA wives; just a normal gal. Wonder if Dame's looking for a Kardashian type now?
They've been together a long time, though I think they just got married in 2021. I saw the two of them dining together at BWW a year or so ago. Doesn't quite look like the reality TV NBA wives; just a normal gal. Wonder if Dame's looking for a Kardashian type now?
Jayrod
Footballguy
The amount of women that throw themselves at NBA players, especially successful ones, is insane.
For that reason,
ETA: I'm an idiot, but to be fair I was 10 years old in 1988 and barely knew what sex was.
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the moops
Footballguy
Do you mean AC Green?
Major
Footballguy
I'd say a good portion of these star athletes aren't exclusive to their wives. They both know what's going on and that's why it often works out.
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