Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
Gosh, someone from the Belichick tree is bad at player relationships? I'm shocked!
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2025 Miami Dolphins - Week 2; Time to burn it down? (20 Viewers)
- Thread starter SwampDawg
- Start date
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
This is all on Stephen Ross
Ireland/Sparano at odds. Ross kept Ireland, fired Sparano, hired Philbin.
Philbin/Ireland at odds. Fired Ireland, hired Hickey, kept Philbin.
Philbin/Hickey at odds. Added Tannenbaum, who fired Hickey, Kept Philbin.
Philbin/Aponte Tannenbaum combine, Philbin fired, Aponte "promoted" away from team.
Tannenbaum/Grier/Gase combine. Fired Gase, fired Tannenbaum, keeps and empowers Grier. Grier leads search to hire Flores.
Grier/Flores at odds. Fire Flores, Keeps Grier.
I gathered this from Salguero's Twitter but like he says, half measures don't work and yet here we are again...
Ireland/Sparano at odds. Ross kept Ireland, fired Sparano, hired Philbin.
Philbin/Ireland at odds. Fired Ireland, hired Hickey, kept Philbin.
Philbin/Hickey at odds. Added Tannenbaum, who fired Hickey, Kept Philbin.
Philbin/Aponte Tannenbaum combine, Philbin fired, Aponte "promoted" away from team.
Tannenbaum/Grier/Gase combine. Fired Gase, fired Tannenbaum, keeps and empowers Grier. Grier leads search to hire Flores.
Grier/Flores at odds. Fire Flores, Keeps Grier.
I gathered this from Salguero's Twitter but like he says, half measures don't work and yet here we are again...
National pundits are near universal in their assessment that this was a bad move by Ross. Dolphin players are surprised. I'm not sure what Tua thinks, as he could be one reason for the firing of Flo.
>>ESPN commentator and former Jets coach Rex Ryan: “I’m stunned by. They won eight out of the last nine. To me, this is crazy.”
ESPN analyst and former NFL linebacker Sam Acho: “The firing of Brian Flores is ridiculous at best and incompetent at worst. Flores won 19 games over two years in Miami [the Dolphins haven’t done that since 03] with a QB that is hurt as often as he’s healthy. He finished the year going 8-1. This move is what bad franchises do.”
ESPN’s Dan Orlovsky: “This is a mistake. He’s got back-to-back winning seasons. He’s beaten New England twice this year. 10-6, 9-8 the last two years. For me, it feels eerily similar to what happened to Jim Caldwell in Detroit. We’re like, ‘It was good but the expectations were to be better.’ You fire a coach that is a really good coach and you’re going to regret it in the long run. It feels that way.”
“I’m sick as [expletive],” cornerback Nik Needham tweeted, with a crying emoji. “Damn Man,” defensive tackle Raekwon Davis tweeted.<<
Dolphins players bemoan Flores firing. And analysts, NFL people rip team: ‘I’m appalled’
>>ESPN commentator and former Jets coach Rex Ryan: “I’m stunned by. They won eight out of the last nine. To me, this is crazy.”
ESPN analyst and former NFL linebacker Sam Acho: “The firing of Brian Flores is ridiculous at best and incompetent at worst. Flores won 19 games over two years in Miami [the Dolphins haven’t done that since 03] with a QB that is hurt as often as he’s healthy. He finished the year going 8-1. This move is what bad franchises do.”
ESPN’s Dan Orlovsky: “This is a mistake. He’s got back-to-back winning seasons. He’s beaten New England twice this year. 10-6, 9-8 the last two years. For me, it feels eerily similar to what happened to Jim Caldwell in Detroit. We’re like, ‘It was good but the expectations were to be better.’ You fire a coach that is a really good coach and you’re going to regret it in the long run. It feels that way.”
“I’m sick as [expletive],” cornerback Nik Needham tweeted, with a crying emoji. “Damn Man,” defensive tackle Raekwon Davis tweeted.<<
Dolphins players bemoan Flores firing. And analysts, NFL people rip team: ‘I’m appalled’
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
He had also alienated the players and the front office with his hardheaded ways. If they got rid of Flores because he was difficult to get along with, why would they go for Harbaugh?
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
As with all hirings, firings and draft picks we won`t know if this was good or bad until a couple seasons play out. If Dolphins make playoffs next year and possible win a playoff game nobody will care. It will be all good, it they are worse it will be bad.
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
From an Eagles fan perspective -- Pederson was a very good leader, but his offenses were pretty much awful after Reich and DeFillipo left after the SB win. His offensive staff hires after that were laughable and he played a big role in the bungling of the Wentz/Hurts situation.
He's certainly the kind of coach you turn to if your goal is to get someone with the opposite persona of Flores, but I'd grill him heavily on what he would do to avoid repeating the mistakes of 2018-20.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
Shocked. How do you can a coach that finished that strong? Dolphins always played hard
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Marty Schottenheimer went 14-2 and got fired by the San Diego Chargers
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Rooster
Footballguy
Mediocre teams do mediocre things. This feels like one of those mediocre things. Reports are Flores had difficulty with relationships in the organization. There's some smoke there, but how much was that he had a winner's mentality in a group that's mostly been excited to be mediocre for decades and not used to that accountability and how much of that is the trademark Belichick arrogance that haunts his disciples? I don't pretend to know, but I'm also at a point where I'm not sure I care about why anymore, what I care is that as a fan we've been stuck in this same cycle for far too long. Ross has had many chances to make this right and he hasn't shown he has what it takes to fix this and this time we're talking the same half hearted approach at fixing the issue we've done a few times already, not sure why anyone is confident this time will be different. So disappointing.
Harbaugh might be the best thing for the Dolphins, not because of anything to do related to his coaching ability, but because he has an established trust and relationship with Ross. I suspect the internal politics that have haunted this organization since Ross bought the team might change if he were in the room. Ross indicated that he wouldn't be the person to take Harbaugh from Michigan, though, so it seems mediocrity will likely win the day again.
Harbaugh might be the best thing for the Dolphins, not because of anything to do related to his coaching ability, but because he has an established trust and relationship with Ross. I suspect the internal politics that have haunted this organization since Ross bought the team might change if he were in the room. Ross indicated that he wouldn't be the person to take Harbaugh from Michigan, though, so it seems mediocrity will likely win the day again.
Man In The Box
Footballguy
I’m a little surprised by this, but not shocked. I like Flores and I think he’s a decent coach. But bottom line, he had a chance to make the playoffs twice and they were arguably the two worst losses in his three seasons. Last year at Buffalo, and two weeks ago in Tennessee. The team was completely unprepared and out-coached in both games and got boat raced.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
It's been the same MO too. Splash signing bonuses on big name players and fail at drafting talent in the trenches. I think of the 2013 and 2020 off-seasons as broadly equivalent: the front office completely whiffed with a trove of resources.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
This is a very good point too. Week 2 was similar. The Dolphins are a bit of a Rorschach blot of a team. They almost always play at the level of their opponents so you are not really sure how good the team really objectively is. In those three games you saw the true nature of the squad and its coaches.
I get the sense that Ross is a type that always thinks the team is just a player or two a way. Maybe Flores butted heads on that topic while Grier would enable the delusions.
Credit to Flores though for one big thing: he often could make chicken salad out of chicken #### with a lot of players. Those players obviously played hard for him. Coaches that can do that are very valuable in the NFL, but you have to have results. Beat Jax in London and we're not having this conversation.
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SwampDawg
Footballguy
He was an assistant under the respected Dungy, he reached a Super Bowl in his his first year as head coach (yes with Manning), he was OC for the Ravens when they won a Super Bowl, he had two winning seasons and made the playoffs with the freaking Detroit Lions. If we want a respected coach and a chance to attract a free agent QB we could do a lot worse. I'm not sure he is my first choice but I don't want another coordinator.
He would be the definition of a caretaker coach, in my opinion. Much like if they traded for Mayfield or some other bridge QB. He's not going to get you anywhere is what I'm saying IMHO.
SwampDawg
Footballguy
This...maybe because I live in the Philly area but I didn't hear much good about Pederson the last few years. Seemed like some real stupid moves once Reich left.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Plus, Grier is a minority GM, and Marvin Allen (?who) is assistant GM. Venus and Serena Williams are part of an ownership group. We're good.
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
Yep. And it's been circulated that he was the one who wanted Reagor instead of Jefferson in the first round of the 2020 draft. It's possible he's still coaching the Eagles if the opposite decision is made -- though with how Wentz and the O-Line performed in 2020, I don't think Jefferson would have been anywhere near the player he was with the Vikings that year.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
Just an outside observer lurker, my understanding is that Bieniemy has some off-field baggage which may hamper his HC prospects.
SwampDawg
Footballguy
Pretty much every national radio show I flipped through this morning ranged from shock to out right roasting Ross amd the Dolphins. Different theories, one was Flo was the fall guy for Ross and Grier waffling back and forth on going all in for Watson and then back to Tua. Another is that Ross had issues with Flo since 2019 when they wanted to tank the season but Flo refused and we won 5 games and Burrow lit it up this year while Tua floundered.
SwampDawg
Footballguy
Might be as good as we get. The more I hear if it isn't Harbaugh (which it seems like it isn't) nobody with options is going to want to come here.
Todem
Footballguy
A while back I had talked about Ross being the real core of the issue......nothing has changed. He is an owner who has made the wrong hires consistently.
Quite frankly......it is easy to say this is a bad move....but is it really? A lot of people on the outside looking in have no idea at the level of mediocrity this franchise has suffered thru since the big bang (62-7 final game vs the Jags for Marino in January 2000). We had some success early in the decade with Ricky Williams....and then it really imploded and has gone down this long black hole of incompetence.
I expect not much to change with this team until we/if get a new ownership group in here that can actually make the right moves with the front office and coaching staff. It starts at the top and the top here has shown the most incompetence in all of this. So firing Flo makes no difference.....he had almost an identical record to his predecessors.....and the brand of football on the offensive side of the ball has been incredibly bad here since Jimmy Johnson took over in 1996.....yeah it has been that bad for that long.
Same old Dolphins. Nothing new, and nothing I mean nothing at all shocking about it if you really think about it.
Par for the course with Ross as The Dolphins owner.
Quite frankly......it is easy to say this is a bad move....but is it really? A lot of people on the outside looking in have no idea at the level of mediocrity this franchise has suffered thru since the big bang (62-7 final game vs the Jags for Marino in January 2000). We had some success early in the decade with Ricky Williams....and then it really imploded and has gone down this long black hole of incompetence.
I expect not much to change with this team until we/if get a new ownership group in here that can actually make the right moves with the front office and coaching staff. It starts at the top and the top here has shown the most incompetence in all of this. So firing Flo makes no difference.....he had almost an identical record to his predecessors.....and the brand of football on the offensive side of the ball has been incredibly bad here since Jimmy Johnson took over in 1996.....yeah it has been that bad for that long.
Same old Dolphins. Nothing new, and nothing I mean nothing at all shocking about it if you really think about it.
Par for the course with Ross as The Dolphins owner.
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Gatorman
Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
not sure I agree with this assessment. Again, look at what you are getting if you come to Miami (vs say Chicago or Denver): team is young and talented, especially on the defensive side of the ball. Offense needs and haul but you have money and picks, a qb on a rookie deal (like him or not), another qb with interest in the team (Watson) a young offensive line (again, if you think you can coach them up) 1 great wr and 3 serviceable ones and 2 good TEs (gesecki and hunter long). You likely need to retool the o line and get a running back and then make your qb decision.
finally, you have an owner who wants to win. Flores was fired for a lot of reasons but not making the playoffs is the biggest one. Having your team get trucked both times you controlled your own fate in the playoff chase is a pretty big hole. As a fan, do you think flo was going to beat the bills next year?
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I give him a solid "F" on the Report Card, he's embarrassed this city again and again, became the whipping boy for Goodell thru BullyGate-Ingonito(his career didn't end somehow) and then Goodell strong armed Ross into renovating Hard Rock so Miami could retain Super Bowls...let me tell you Miami sells itself, you could hold the game in a parking lot, nobody would care as long as they get to party in South Beach in early Feb when the country is covered in snow everywhere else. He almost got Miami the Jax status and play several home games in London, as it is we seem like an eager partner whenever NFL calls on us to travel there.
Gatorman
Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
not sure I completely agree here. Ross may be many things, but a small thinker isn’t one of them. He wants to win, but I think his real issue is he “locks” on To one person who he trusts their advice and rolls with it all the way to the end. First it was parcells, then Ron wolf, then tannenbaum, then aponte, now Grier.
in speaking to people who have done business w him locally he is a committee of one. He gets info and make the decision himself. The problem with that is if someone impresses you then they have your ear. It’s a very narrow focus and that may lead to some blind spots, but in the end Ross wants the phins to be great or be terrible. He’d rather see double digits on the record than single. 12-5 or 5-12, not 9-8 or 8-7. I can understand that.
Todem
Footballguy
Parker.....serviceable? When is that guy ever....ever going to be available for 17 games.
Never.
Albert Wilson? Nope
Mack Hollins? Yes....like his potential but we need to revamp the WR Corp big time.
TE - Gesicki will be overpaid by some other team....really overpaid. I don’t think he will be here. That is my bold prediction. Another case of us developing a guy and then he leaves for greener pastures and a huge contract that we won’t give him. I like him. I don’t love him. He is a huge liability knowing when he is on the field we are not running the ball. Hunter Long I hope develops into that full time TE who can block, play inline, split out etc etc. He has that kind of potential. It will be interesting to see if Gesicki does what I expect him to and claim his franchise tag salary should be one of a WR not a TE. If so.....let him walk and get vastly overpaid.
We have two OL who are starting caliber. We need an overhaul there.
RB - We need a new stable. I would retain Duke Johnson Lindsay on cheap 1 year deals. Everyone else can be released (keep Doaks around as a developmental project and see what/if he has anything next summer) and we need to look into the draft. We have passed on so many talented backs and it blows my mind every draft how we never talk a young dynamic back......awful.
This offense needs an overhaul like you said.....every position group. And of course QB.........the bane of this team since Marino retired.
Gatorman
Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
I’ll agree with you there. He is not an “owners owner”. He’s one of the guys in the back of the room at the owners meetings not a guy leading them.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I am definitely of the opinion that Flores got Miami to respectability and from here a good coach can take talent, boatloads of cash(we got lots to spend off season) and despite burning a lot of draft capital, we still have a 1st round pick in 2022 magically and it might be int he Mid to late 20s, we'll see, but we aren't barren and Tua isn't a great NFL QB, would still like to see a fully functioning OL and run game behind him so we are not reliant on his arm too often.
-Put it another way, talent plus money plus draft capital PLUS a NEW COACH with some street credit might attract a few more quality players and perhaps even a QB that wants out of their situation would like to come here and I do not limit that to Watson///Mr Wilson in Seattle wants to be in a "Music City" for his wife and Miami would fit the requirement, not as much as Los Angeles but there isn't a QB opening there...NYC as well but Wilson isn't an NYC guy IMHO.
Miami with a veteran coach with a clear plan might be able to get a veteran QB that doesn't need seasoning, we would have to move on from Tua but they seem like they are not married to Tua completely right now.
Miami is a great place for the right coach to walk in and take over, the owner is desperate.
Todem
Footballguy
I will never say Ross does to want to win.
He has made terrible decisions on who he hires......because he knows nothing....about what it takes to be a winning football team. And like you said he trusts too easily. So that to me is a clear sign he has failed as an owner.....not for lack of effort. But just one bad decision after another and another and another. The track record speaks.
I always hope for the best......but this has been going 20 years strong now.....will I ever see the Dolphins win a Super Bowl in my lifetime? I don’t know.
Gatorman
Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
Waddle, Parker, Preston Williams, and hollins. Strangely enough I like waddle and hollins more than Parker and Williams.
Todem
Footballguy
Oh they are certainly not married to Tua at all. Ross said whomever the new coach is.....it will be his call as to what QB they want.
Todem
Footballguy
Wow......I wish I can get on board with Williams.....he was terrible in his limited opportunities this season and seems to also....always have some sort of injury every single week. I think his days are also numbered here.
There is a big offensive overhaul coming this draft and off-season. And long overdue actually.
Hollins reminds me of a young Orande Gadsen. A big physical baller who earned everything he has gotten thus far. Hollins is one of my favorite Dolphins right now.
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Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
If Gesicki leaves, doesn't Miami recoup a 3rd round compensatory pick like the Patriots typically rack up?
Miami maybe makes a qualifying offer, something reasonable but they know any team can outbid them on, watch him walk for more money and then recoup something?
I thought that can happen but I might be totally mislead on that.
Miami maybe makes a qualifying offer, something reasonable but they know any team can outbid them on, watch him walk for more money and then recoup something?
I thought that can happen but I might be totally mislead on that.
Todem
Footballguy
You are correct. Because I think they tag Ogbah and rightfully so. He deserves it far more. Gesicki is all but a goner here IMO. And that’s fine......he is not as great as some think. Again he is so limited and really creates tactical issues because he is a one way player who can’t block if his life depended on it. So he will get overpaid like a WR.
And he may blow up even more on a team with a real NFL arm. Is what it is.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
You cannot give credit to Ross for anything other than 15 years of misery, to condone his POV or try and understand his thinking, you play into it by giving him any credit just because he's a wealthy and successful business man prior to owning an NFL franchise. The man literally knows nothing about football other than juts being a mild fan and knowing it has wide popularity, we're talking about a guy that built a night club in the Stadium, the whole thing is just a movie theater chain to him or entertainment money, he's not anyone who should be making football decisions and the proof is the Miami Dolphins track record of success since he owned the team, it's putrid.
Todem
Footballguy
Something else to really ponder and hear me out:
Xavier Howard will be turning 29 in July. He has probably 2 more true prime years left. Do you trade him before this years draft and try to get in a haul. He is clearly our best player. I love him. But his value will never be higher ever again.
We are still rebuilding. We really need more draft picks for 2023 and 2024 as well as this years draft.
Thoughts?
Xavier Howard will be turning 29 in July. He has probably 2 more true prime years left. Do you trade him before this years draft and try to get in a haul. He is clearly our best player. I love him. But his value will never be higher ever again.
We are still rebuilding. We really need more draft picks for 2023 and 2024 as well as this years draft.
Thoughts?
TripleThreat
Footballguy
Some of the rumors and reports that are circling don't paint a pretty picture for Flores. I'm sure he'll have some success later once he reflects and swallows his pride...
Speaking of Gesicki... Rumors that Tua was benched but the backup for Bal because he was vocal about being willing able to play vs Houston, makes me wonder about who else didn't see playing time because of conflicts.
Speaking of Gesicki... Rumors that Tua was benched but the backup for Bal because he was vocal about being willing able to play vs Houston, makes me wonder about who else didn't see playing time because of conflicts.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
First of all, what a great conversation this morning with all the Phins fans, we are getting all points of view.
-At some point I would like to talk about all the good things that Flores did while he was here, perhaps he wasn't easy to get along with but I would prefer to focus on the results vs heresay from the front office trying to throw shade and cover their ### right now.
-I liked the way he went after Kenny Stills in practice 1st year and ultimately got him shipped out of Miami to Houston and his career pretty much sputtered out from there. He made an example out of him quickly.
-I liked when we brought in character players like Kyle Van Noy with a winning attitude and understanding of what it takes to win football games. I was sad they released him and appreciated his work at LB here in Miami, it was refreshing.
After an 0-7 start, Went 24-18 with almost no offense to speak of. That's also a failure on offense and shows a big lack of skills there that should limit his ability to obtain a Head Coach position, not sure how many years he was even a true Defensive Coordinator, perhaps he needs to showcase that for a couple seasons, he is NOT a Mike Tomlin clone as some have suggested, he is far far removed from that IMHO.
-At some point I would like to talk about all the good things that Flores did while he was here, perhaps he wasn't easy to get along with but I would prefer to focus on the results vs heresay from the front office trying to throw shade and cover their ### right now.
-I liked the way he went after Kenny Stills in practice 1st year and ultimately got him shipped out of Miami to Houston and his career pretty much sputtered out from there. He made an example out of him quickly.
-I liked when we brought in character players like Kyle Van Noy with a winning attitude and understanding of what it takes to win football games. I was sad they released him and appreciated his work at LB here in Miami, it was refreshing.
After an 0-7 start, Went 24-18 with almost no offense to speak of. That's also a failure on offense and shows a big lack of skills there that should limit his ability to obtain a Head Coach position, not sure how many years he was even a true Defensive Coordinator, perhaps he needs to showcase that for a couple seasons, he is NOT a Mike Tomlin clone as some have suggested, he is far far removed from that IMHO.
dhockster
Footballguy
To be fair to Pederson, the Eagles had significant injury issues in 2018-2020. It seemed like either all their WR's were injured or the whole offensive line was injured (except Kelce) or both. Doug had his issues, but even with the injury issues, the team managed to get to the playoffs in 2018 and 2019. And if Alshon doesn't let that ball go through his hands in 2018, they might have gone back to the NFC championship game. While I don't think the Eagles were wrong for moving on from Doug, I do think he is a coach that the players respected and got behind.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Can you be more specific? I would love to read details because it's clear Miami is saying he was not fired because of his coaching abilities...so we're running the franchise with what playbook exactly if coaching was a non factor in the Head Coach position and operations...this is disturbing quite frankly.
Todem
Footballguy
He certainly changed the “culture” in the locker room and I thought he did a great job in doing so.
In the end though......two straight seasons of what if’s and games we let slip away, and even more importantly we had our destiny n our hands two straight years and blew the big game to close it out for a playoff spot and we looked outreached, outmatched and ill-prepared. Add in some very bizarre player rotation decisions and some horrendous play calling.....the buck stops with the HC and unfortunately he was by all accounts extremely difficult to get along with. If you are winning and winning in the post season....all that noise does not matter. But when you start 1-7 in a year you were actually expected to contend for a playoff spot it all crumbled and Flores was the fall guy.
I actually wanted both he and Grier fired.....I mean Grier blew the 2020 draft....that get’s GM’s fired. 3 1st round busts.....3!!! In the same draft.
Really? How is he still employed.
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TripleThreat
Footballguy
No doubt, he did some really good things. I really wanted him to work out and genuinely think he'll be a successful HC in the future.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
We're just making a list of former BFL Head Coaches that would currently be available with Playoff experience and perhaps even a Super Bowl
-Jim Harbaugh...Super Bowl appearance, 2nd Half lead, deep post season run
-Dan Quinn...Super Bowl Appearance, 4th Q lead, deep post season run
-Doug Pederson...Super Bowl Victory on his resume at the Head Coaching position, worked with Hall of Fame coaches
-Zimmer...Post season deep run to the NFCC on his resume
We want to start with the best and not some hot shot OC/DC, that hasn't worked if you read from the top of this page maybe last page we have it all up for all to see, Ross is one of the very worst owners. We need someone that already can do the job.
