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- Thread starter Ministry of Pain
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Boston
Footballguy
1,000,000%…although if it was his goal he would be executing the perfect plan.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Some of you have a short memory.
Besides, Bill Walsh's record without Joe Montana was way worse than BB's without Brady. Was he average as well?
Even the best coaches still need players.
Besides, Bill Walsh's record without Joe Montana was way worse than BB's without Brady. Was he average as well?
Even the best coaches still need players.
btemp
Footballguy
Lol. This has to be one of the most ignorant takes I've ever read. Astounding.
Bill Walsh only had two seasons without Montana, his first two. Yes, losing seasons but he also was taking over a team that hadn't had a winning season since '71 (Walsh was hired in '79). Your argument rests solely on two years at the start of a rebuild. By contrast, we have 11 seasons of Belichick without Brady, during which he had 3 winning seasons (of 11, 11, and 10 wins)
He also improved every year he was there, including those first two years (and then winning a SB in Year 3 with Montana).
But you know the other big difference? LEGACY.
1) Walsh left SF with a future HoF at QB and a roster and organization that would go on to be dominant for another 10 years and win multiple Super Bowls. Walsh's success wasn't just his, but he left an organization that would to the playoffs 9/10 years AFTER he left and win two more Super Bowls.
2) He also left a coaching tree that has tons of success and STILL reverberates through the NFL today. I think this is part of why the 49ers had success so long after he left. He built up LEADERS. His coaching tree is very impressive.
Now how about Belichick? I honestly don't know if there's a SINGLE coach who's had sustained success in the NFL from his tree. The only ones are a couple in college like Saban. And I think this reflects poorly on Belichick - especially with all his success being tied to Brady. Was he able to build a successful organization, or was he an above average coach who elevated the play of the greatest QB in NFL history?
-----------------
Just a quick coda: Yes BB is a great coach who will deservedly go into the HoF. But his inability to EVER find success without Brady (again, 11 seasons with Brady) strongly suggests he was never as great as we thought.
Chaka
Footballguy
Keep sending this up the flagpole, maybe you'll get someone to salute eventually.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Keep sending? It was once, no?
Coaches are measured by their records. Pretty sure BB is sub 0.500 without Brady (~10 seasons). That's not great.
Chaka
Footballguy
I'm not the one who is going to salute.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Lots of inaccuracy up in this thread.
Lets start with the characterization of Cleveland as a negative. Belichick's staff had to clean house and turn over the roster to make the team competitive. Entering the 1995 season, the Browns were coming off a playoff season in 1994 in which the team finished 11–5 and advanced to the second round of the playoffs. Sports Illustrated predicted that the Browns would represent the AFC in Super Bowl XXX at the end of the 1995 season, and the team started 3–1, but then Art Modell informed the team and coaches that the team would move to Baltimore and things fell apart.
During Belichick's tenure in Cleveland, he cultivated amongst many others Nick Saban, Ozzie Newsome, and Jim Schwartz. Representing Belichick's performance in Cleveland as anything less than stellar is to conveniently ignore facts and point to cumulative wins and losses in 3 distinct stages of the Cleveland tenure (pre roster turnover, building phase, Art Modell sold us out phase).
Next, consider the narrative evaluating Belichick based solely as a head coach. During his 12 year tenure as an assistant coach and ultimately defensive coordinator for the New York Giants he coached up a few linebackers you may have heard of...Lawrence Taylor as the "Jack", Gary Reasons as the "Will", Harry Carson as the "Mike" and Carl Banks as the "Sam". Some folks say this squad was pretty good.
With Brady, Kraft and Belichick the Patriots hit the tri-fecta of organizational leadership and harvested two decades of unparalleled success. Most are aware that the first 3 rings were based on unequal parts of suffocating defense and clutch quarterback play. The next 3 rings...and 2 losses to the Giants and 1 loss to the Eagles...Brady had become the Brady that people talk about today. At the end of this period, three things happened (a) Jimmy G got run off as the Pats could pay both as starters, (b) the roster and salary cap were treated like a sponge to squeeze out every last bit of competitiveness from the team fighting the inevitibility of league parity, and (c) when the sponge was dry Brady bailed for Tampa Bay. I don't spite him for it, but its a fact that he bailed.
Now, Tampa Bay was a perfect landing spot for Brady, as they had basically an entirely stacked roster except for the QB position (Jameis Crab Legs Winston). Mix in Gronk and a couple games from crazy legs AB and you get a SB ring. After that, Father Time and organizational weakness stepped in and Brady was unable to sustain the success beyond one "easy bake" championship.
I haven't the time nor inclination to attempt to explain secondary pattern matching or other innovations on defense, offense and special teams that Bill Belichick has brought to professional football (I sleep 500 yards from men who want to kill me, so I prefer you just salute, say thank you, and be on your way). Fast forward to today and not only is Brady gone, but Scar is gone and Adams is gone, not to mention Nick Caserio who's doing OK in Houston and a handful of coaches working for other pro and college teams. The organization is TRYING to rebuild after the cupboards were laid bare 3 years ago and has been struggling.
Currently, the Pats are not a good football team at all. Bad choices have been made in free agency. Offensive line has been hit with massive injuries that have swamped additional resources added. Conventional wisdom in the NFL, sports media and fandom at large is based on instant gratification. Fortunately, Bob Kraft is not a carpetbagger showing up to show Tom Landry the door.
I'm a minority voice in the Pats fan community. If you asked me to play the role of Bob Kraft, I'd advise Bill that a new GM would be onboarded this off season and that the 2025 Patriots need to make the second round of the playoffs, but outside of that it would remain the "in bill we trust" show. But then, I started watching the Patriots in the early 70s so I'm very familiar with decades of suck, and inordinately grateful to what BB (and Brady and others) accomplished for New England fans.
Lets start with the characterization of Cleveland as a negative. Belichick's staff had to clean house and turn over the roster to make the team competitive. Entering the 1995 season, the Browns were coming off a playoff season in 1994 in which the team finished 11–5 and advanced to the second round of the playoffs. Sports Illustrated predicted that the Browns would represent the AFC in Super Bowl XXX at the end of the 1995 season, and the team started 3–1, but then Art Modell informed the team and coaches that the team would move to Baltimore and things fell apart.
During Belichick's tenure in Cleveland, he cultivated amongst many others Nick Saban, Ozzie Newsome, and Jim Schwartz. Representing Belichick's performance in Cleveland as anything less than stellar is to conveniently ignore facts and point to cumulative wins and losses in 3 distinct stages of the Cleveland tenure (pre roster turnover, building phase, Art Modell sold us out phase).
Next, consider the narrative evaluating Belichick based solely as a head coach. During his 12 year tenure as an assistant coach and ultimately defensive coordinator for the New York Giants he coached up a few linebackers you may have heard of...Lawrence Taylor as the "Jack", Gary Reasons as the "Will", Harry Carson as the "Mike" and Carl Banks as the "Sam". Some folks say this squad was pretty good.
With Brady, Kraft and Belichick the Patriots hit the tri-fecta of organizational leadership and harvested two decades of unparalleled success. Most are aware that the first 3 rings were based on unequal parts of suffocating defense and clutch quarterback play. The next 3 rings...and 2 losses to the Giants and 1 loss to the Eagles...Brady had become the Brady that people talk about today. At the end of this period, three things happened (a) Jimmy G got run off as the Pats could pay both as starters, (b) the roster and salary cap were treated like a sponge to squeeze out every last bit of competitiveness from the team fighting the inevitibility of league parity, and (c) when the sponge was dry Brady bailed for Tampa Bay. I don't spite him for it, but its a fact that he bailed.
Now, Tampa Bay was a perfect landing spot for Brady, as they had basically an entirely stacked roster except for the QB position (Jameis Crab Legs Winston). Mix in Gronk and a couple games from crazy legs AB and you get a SB ring. After that, Father Time and organizational weakness stepped in and Brady was unable to sustain the success beyond one "easy bake" championship.
I haven't the time nor inclination to attempt to explain secondary pattern matching or other innovations on defense, offense and special teams that Bill Belichick has brought to professional football (I sleep 500 yards from men who want to kill me, so I prefer you just salute, say thank you, and be on your way). Fast forward to today and not only is Brady gone, but Scar is gone and Adams is gone, not to mention Nick Caserio who's doing OK in Houston and a handful of coaches working for other pro and college teams. The organization is TRYING to rebuild after the cupboards were laid bare 3 years ago and has been struggling.
Currently, the Pats are not a good football team at all. Bad choices have been made in free agency. Offensive line has been hit with massive injuries that have swamped additional resources added. Conventional wisdom in the NFL, sports media and fandom at large is based on instant gratification. Fortunately, Bob Kraft is not a carpetbagger showing up to show Tom Landry the door.
I'm a minority voice in the Pats fan community. If you asked me to play the role of Bob Kraft, I'd advise Bill that a new GM would be onboarded this off season and that the 2025 Patriots need to make the second round of the playoffs, but outside of that it would remain the "in bill we trust" show. But then, I started watching the Patriots in the early 70s so I'm very familiar with decades of suck, and inordinately grateful to what BB (and Brady and others) accomplished for New England fans.
drummer
Footballguy
Good points about Walsh, but it should be noted that Walsh as HC and GM didn't have to deal with the salary cap, and the 49ers last SB win was during the first season the cap was mandated. When Walsh came back later after the Yorks took over, he had the cap to deal with, and that lead them into the infamous "salary cap hell".
The best "Salary Cap Era" team is NE, no question there. That's super impressive IMHO.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Pro tip: molding the early careers of the greatest college football coach in the modern era and possibly the single best personnel guy in the NFL are different than being linked to an offensive system.
Characterizing the latter as LEADERs and the former as chopped liver is petty and doesn't become you.
Boston
Footballguy
If Bill was as grateful to his players as you are to him there would have never been a Dynasty.
Dizzy
Footballguy
OK. No idea what you're hinting at or not saluting but... "noted."
massraider
Footballguy
I think he runs a great organization, but their scouting is suspect.
They have made a ton of savvy salary cap moves, trades, free agent deals, in game innovation, little cheating here and there (but rubbing is racing, imo), and the players have been buying in for a while.
But they have squandered draft capital. No denying it. They don't have the TD scorers even if they DID have a top QB. All of these skill position guys are non-explosive
Perhaps they thought they could scheme an offense with spare parts, because they did it when they had Brady? It's an arms race now, look at Miami and KC.
They have made a ton of savvy salary cap moves, trades, free agent deals, in game innovation, little cheating here and there (but rubbing is racing, imo), and the players have been buying in for a while.
But they have squandered draft capital. No denying it. They don't have the TD scorers even if they DID have a top QB. All of these skill position guys are non-explosive
Perhaps they thought they could scheme an offense with spare parts, because they did it when they had Brady? It's an arms race now, look at Miami and KC.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Walsh was simply one example. There are many others of all-time great coaches who didn't do so well when not having a GOAT or all-timer.
Honestly, I think the current situation is a case of Belichick the GM letting down Belichick the coach.
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
How does that make BB just another coach?
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
When did Brady turn around a terrible franchise? It took 30 INTs and a few fumbles for them to finish 7-9 the year before. That's not terrible. That's one turnover machine keeping them from being a playoff team. The OL got "better" because they had a quarterback who knew where to throw it and defenses knew they couldn't just throw everything at him and rattle him. So again, one functional QB away from being great.
Brady knew he was walking into a great situation. Most people knew Winston was the problem. Not saying any QB could have accomplished what Brady did. His career after age 40 is a HOF career. But any functional QB could have made them a playoff team. Brady made them champions, no doubt. But the pieces were there.
Sorry, the idea that BB has been exposed as just another coach is silly. Last season they were both mediocre. They both had winning records the year before that. Now they put their chips on Mac, and it's not going to pay off. But if Brady had come back for one more year, would Tampa Bay be 3-1 right now?
Doug B
Footballguy
I kind of think Brady himself was the excellent "coach" running his own offense. ISTM Arians was just along for the ride.
Didn't Brady essentially discard Arians' playbook a few games into the 2020 season? @Capella ? @Grahamburn ?
Capella
Footballguy
Yea, after the bye. Noticeable difference.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
The bye wasn't until week 13, but they didn't lose again after that. I'm sure they didn't scrap Arians' offense completely, but there were definitely more quickly developing plays than previous years. And, Gronk. Arians was notorious for not using TE's as receivers, but Gronk was featured once Brady arrived.
To be fair though there was a TON of talent on those 20-21 teams. Brady coming in obviously helped, and he brought a bunch of guys with him, but this narrative that he's the only reason they were successful and somehow carried them isn't true.
If Wirfs and Godwin didn't get hurt I think they would have gone back to back. They were better in 2021.
btemp
Footballguy
Lol.
You're talking about TWO people in a 30 year head coaching career - two! And neither were NFL head coaches. If you want to start counting college success and front office executives, these other trees are getting a lot bigger too.
Has a single head coach in BB's field even BEEN to a Super Bowl?
By contrast, Walsh has Mike Holmgren, George Seifert, Paul Hackett, Jim Fassel, Dennis Green - all who coached under him and they went to 6 Super Bowls and won 3.
If you go further down, you're talking about guys like Mike Shanahan, Andy Reid, Mike McCarthy, etc. etc. etc. Lots and lots of success and Super Bowls.
You're having to reach to find ONE college coach (yes, a great one) and ONE executive. Come on.
This whole post is a game of imagination, but I'll just leave this because it's absurd.
The roster was not "stacked". It had a talented defense and very good DC, but name me one stud on that roster not named Evans or Godwin? You had a massive hole at TE with OJ Howard, at RB with Ronald Jones, no 3rd WR, and two competent OL in Ali Marpet and Wirfs (a rookie at the time). They were a middling unit up until that point that Brady made look exceptional (which is what they returned to once Brady finally slowed down).
The team had not had a winning in a decade and not been to the playoffs since 2007. The last time it was competitive in the division was 2016, and the year's previous 7-9 finish was good enough for 3rd in the NFCS. As I've said elsehwere, Arians was washed, Leftwich can't coach an NFL offense (both of which we've seen since) and the GM had a record that was worse than Matt Millens. What screams "stacked" about ANY of that?
What Brady did was (a) bring in players that wanted to play with him that upgraded RB, TE, and WR, (b) took over the offense and turned it into a competent scheme (c) changed the culture and (d) elevated the play of all players around him (particularly the OL). This is precisely why, as Brady's play fell off, the team's nosedived in proportion.
P.S. I'm sure many didn't follow this closely, but Brady had no CHOICE but to go to Tampa. No one else wanted him, which is crazy in hindsight. As was reported at the time, he was far more intersted in MIami, SF, etc. but Tampa was the only girl at the dance. It wasn't a CHOICE by Brady but his only option.
But you can only judge Walsh with the rules he played under - and every other team had the same rules too.
NE has been the best in the salary cap era for sure, you can't argue with the SB rings, but the question here is how much is due to Brady and how much BB. Of course, BB is an excellent coach. But like OCs who coach without Brady (O'Brien *cough* *cough* McDaniels *cough*) they turn into pumpkins.
By contrast, there are many coaches who have found success without elite QB play. Carroll, Tomlin, Harbaugh, Reid, Parcells, all jump to mind. Of course, you're better with a HoF QB, but you're always better with a HoF player.
drummer
Footballguy
Sure but back then, dominant teams stayed dominant because of the monopoly of talent they could acquire and retain. It reached a peak during the early 90's between the arms race of the Cowboys and 49ers. Teams that haven't won a Super Bowl once the cap started to even things out. Both teams also violated cap rules a couple of years after, and in the 49ers case, the cap exposed many years of bad drafts after Walsh left with Carmen Policy replacing him as GM. Also, placing a cap on rookies really matters now, opposed to spending a ton a money on a draft pick bust.
Top level players wanted to go to teams that gave them a better chance to win. In NE's case post salary cap, the two people who gave a player a better chance to win were Brady and Belechick. Brady made the talent around him better, and when he got a Randy Moss, set records. It's not like Belechick would win SB's like Joe Gibbs had with three different QB's back when there wasn't a cap. Franchises had to adapt to the new economics, and it made QB's matter even more because teams can only spend so much, and a franchise QB is who they are going to spend a lot of it on.
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Insoxicated
Weird analogy but you've never really been a source of rational analysis of all things New England, so it's forgivable
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Shanahan and Reid are the standouts here. The fact that they run derivatives of the west coast offensive system does not make them the product of some leadership injection from Walsh. The point I objected to in your original post was you talking about the LEADERs spawned from Walsh as if coaching tree is some sort of determinant of greatness. Walsh is great because he was the architect of the west coast offense not because Jim Fassel and Dennis Green ran that system, lol.
Chaka
Footballguy
So, you're saying Walsh, who stole his offensive philosophy from Paul Brown, was probably mediocre himself and was carried by his coaching staff.
Works for me.
Deamon
Footballguy
I mean, NE wasn't on the list of teams he said he would play for, were they?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Right, the whole idea of the coaching tree making you a better or worse head coach is not something to which I subscribe. Many great coordinators do not make great head coaches.
In fact, you could easily argue the opposite, that (Walsh) having coordinators that went to become good head coaches was a big benefit, verses (Belichick) having a bunch of coordinators that were washouts as head coaches. Note: I am not suggesting Walsh was not a great head coach; he absolutely was. But a head coach's job is not to get his coordinators prepped for future jobs elsewhere as a head coach, so I think giving any extra credit for that seems a bit off to me.
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Lansdowne
Footballguy
If that supposed list is what I think it is, I’d caution against putting any stock on rumors posted on social media, especially by random accounts that don’t cite their sources. People lie and make up rumors on there all the time so you have to be careful who you’re getting the info from.
On Twitter I see multiple tweets about the supposed “5 teams” but not a single credible source.
Chaka
Footballguy
Difficult to see Belichick embracing a kid with such a high profile. He'd probably trade the pick multiple times down to the mid 20s and draft the 2nd string QB from Vanderbilt or Hofstra or whatever because that guy understands the Patriot Way.
Boston
Footballguy
He is 100% in charge of the roster and it is awful...under no condition should he have any more say in personnel and whoever does should not have any ties to him...as for coaching...yes, he WAS the best but not sure what you are seeing the past two years that gives you hope he hasn't taken a step or two (or four) backwards...if you think their issues are just QB (and that is a big one) than you aren't watching them and I would also ask you if you think he has done a good job developing Mac the past two years by having Patricia as an OC and surrounding him without any talent...I am very down on Mac and think they need to move on but I don't think any young QB could overcome the situation he has been put in.
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Its hard to get a good QB after top 5 picks. Mahomes, Brady, Purdy, Wilson guys are often the exception.
Boston
Footballguy
No one will ever disagree that getting a good QB is difficult...for every Purdy there are a ton of examples of high picks that didn't work out...that being said there also aren't many examples of QBs who have overcome being developed incorrectly which has happened with Mac (and again I want to move on from him)...BB has done a bad job with Mac (and it is obvious) and I would rather he not have any part of the development of who they get next.
Chaka
Footballguy
Belichick has definitely not stuck the landing in his post McDaniels offensive coaching hires.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
Allen, Hurts, Herbert, Watson, Jackson, Rodgers, Big Ben, Dak, Russ Wilson, Kirk... On and on. All outside the top 5. That's just off the top of my head.
Boston
Footballguy
The Patricia hire needs its own 30/30...I will never understand it.
Lansdowne
Footballguy
I’m still waiting for the 30/30 on why Belichick decided to bench his best cornerback on the day of the Super Bowl rather than giving his team the best chance of winning (what he always says to the media) by playing him and then waiting until the offseason to get rid of him if he’s still angry with God knows whatever it was that Butler did in the first place. With all the personnel mismanagement that is still his most egregious move of all.
Chaka
Footballguy
Now do the list of all the QBs drafted before those guys.
Hurts is the only guy on that list Belichick passed on post Brady. Makes me wonder what his bestie, Saban had to say about Hurts before the draft.
Boston
Footballguy
The most fascinating thing about that is to this day no one knows exactly went on...been plenty of rumors but nothing has ever been confirmed...the second most fascinating thing about it is he came back to the Pats so whatever happened could not have left that much of a scar for either party.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
I was simply responding to the comment that it's "hard to get a good QB after the top 5 picks." History suggests it isn't.
Also, Allen, Watson, Jackson, AND Mahomes' teams also all traded UP for the right to draft them. Maybe Bill should consider that option? He could have had Jordan Love in 2020, but he has always been so enamored with trading down instead to build what's basically a dumpster fire roster now. You need to identify a QB and go get him. Tom Brady isn't falling in his lap again to save his ***.
Chaka
Footballguy
It's hard to find a good QB inside the top 5. Looking at a list of the QBs drafted before guys like Watson, Mahomes, don't forget Josh Allen, Wilson etc would make that pretty clear.
Totally agree about the trade route though.
Lansdowne
Footballguy
Belichick’s approach to roster building is sort of like this:
He could go and buy a nice tailored suit, but quality suits are expensive and need maintaining. Instead he’d rather shop at the thrift store, getting a bunch of unremarkable clothes from the rack that are cheap and easily replaceable.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
QB seems to be as much about environment and organizational culture as it does draft pedigree.
That’s why these teams that continue to tank for early picks seem to still be picking there in perpetuity.
That’s why these teams that continue to tank for early picks seem to still be picking there in perpetuity.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
A viable strategy when you have the greatest player ever under center.
Boston
Footballguy
Don't forget this part...if everyone says I should zig I am gonna zag...there was a time where that worked but that aint the case now.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Yeah but if he has a nice fedora he’ll pull it off.
Lansdowne
Footballguy
Yup. Another thing that has always annoyed me is how he has tunnel vision for Day 3/UDFA graded prospects that he gets enamored with in the process and overdrafts them. Jordan Richards who was almost certainly still going to be there in the 5th round and he takes him in the 2nd round. Or drafting guys whose stock tanked due to questionable medicals which sometimes worked (Gronk) but usually didn’t (Easley, Michel, etc). Also his continuous practice of drafting kickers and punters (who for the most part flop), particularly in the middle rounds, when many of the best at those positions weren’t even drafted. Also how he tries to galaxy brain everyone else by aggressively drafting Division II prospects earlier than they should’ve gone because of their athletic profile. And who can forget the timeless strategy that drives all us Pats fans insane every year: seeing a stud prospect fall to the Pats only to trade down so Belichick can snag an extra pick, that he then flips for two extra picks in a lower round, who he then flips for future picks that are flipped again into further future drafts and so on. Why have a core 1st round talent when you can keep collecting extra 5th and 6th round picks that you’re going to blow on players who:
- are long snappers
- attended Navy
- are related to a former or current assistant
- played lacrosse or knows somebody in their family who plays lacrosse
Boston
Footballguy
Too funny...I read this with Felger's voice.
Chaka
Footballguy
Interestingly enough his approach to personal fashion is to aggressively pursue the styles that give him the best chance to succeed in any social or business opportunities.
massraider
Footballguy
The hubris of success.
