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49ers Camp Battle (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter chedha
- Start date
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
So he has heart. What he doesn't have is 2 healthy shoulders.COlin
cstu
Footballguy
You make that comment and you're defending Gore?Since when does a 40 time translate to being a productive NFL running back?? There are plenty of extremely successful players in the league i.e. Terrell Davis, the G.O.A.T.. jerry rice, who had less than stellar combine's, or workouts, and they turned out great. A great running back is all about being smart and having vision, seeing the holes, following your blockers, being patient and waiting for plays to develop etc.. 40 time is an indication of speed, but i've seen many interviews with coordinators/HC's in the NFL with regard to 40 times, and the consensus is it's a small factor in evaluating a players abilities... Gore has many of the attributes it's takes from seeing him first hand... Although time away from football and recovery from injury are a concern.. we'll have to wait and see what happensIt might also have something to do with the fact that he's vastly inferior from a physical standpoint. Here are some nice numbers from NFL.com:Willis McGaheeBut because he didn't get drafted as high, and with the fanfare of portis, mcgahee etc... he'll be regarded as someone who has a long shot at ever competing in the nfl at a high level
4.24 in the 40-yard dash … 3.69 in the 20-yard shuttle … 41-inch vertical jump … 10-foot-11 broad jump …
Clinton Portis
4.42 in the 40-yard dash … 39-inch vertical jump …
Frank Gore
4.66 in the 40-yard dash … 4.13 20-yard shuttle … 11.33 60-yard shuttle … 6.95 three-cone drill … 32-inch vertical jump … 9-foot-1broad jump …
I've still yet to see a game decided so badly by officiating than that OSU?UM Nat Title game..... 
at the ##### slap.
Jurb, You may want to take a look at this link. Had the refs got anything right on this play this game would have never went into overtime.
http://www.michaelseufer.com/gamble/
at the ##### slap. Jurb, You may want to take a look at this link. Had the refs got anything right on this play this game would have never went into overtime.http://www.michaelseufer.com/gamble/
Franknbeans
Footballguy
from PFW...Niners rookie RB Frank Gore already might be breathing down Kevan Barlow’s neck for playing time. Barlow ticked off Niners coaches when he took himself out of an early camp drill because he couldn’t take the heat. Gore, meanwhile, is in constant motion — when he’s not on the field, he’s doing push-ups on the sideline — and the offense has looked crisper when he’s been involved. He was, however, slowed down by a nagging neck injury at presstime. …
Construction Man Jim
Footballguy
Frank Gore was a big time talent before incurring major knee injuries in back to back years. Anyone who disputes that is either dense or just being difficult. In 2001 he averaged 9 + yards per carry as a true freshman at Miami. Think about it: he earned the role of primary back up behind Clinton Portis and ahead of Willis McGahee while The U was at it's absolute apex as a program!!! Did some of his yards come against lesser opponents? Yes, BUT that's irrelevant when you consider the internal competition he overcame to even earn PT in what has to be one of the most (if not the most) talented RB stable in recent memory. Regardless, he also averaged 20.7 ypc against West Virginia with 124 yards and 2 TDs on 6 carries and 13.9 ypc against Syracuse, rushing 11 times for 153 yards, including a 77-yard run (Miami's longest of the season).
Unfortunately no matter how far removed from the injuries he will never be the player he was. The breakaway speed is not gonna come back and the ceiling for his ultimate potential has inevitably been lowered. (Although, sports medicine has come a long way so it's too early to right him off... Consider: Jamal Lewis became a premier back despite tearing knee ligaments on two separate occassions and McGahee had torn knee ligaments prior to the infamous Fiesta Bowl injury).
That being said durabilty questions are not even my primary concern with Frank Gore. I still think he has sufficient physical tools but I'm not convinced he possesses the requisite intelligence necessary to be an elite RB at the NFL level (he scored a 6 on the Wonderlic). He will no longer be able to rely on pure instincts and he wil not enjoy the same competitive advantage had in HS and early college. And beyond any personal limitations I just don't see SF offense being conducive to any RB's fantasy production this year.
EBF - Do you have a link to support the 4.24 4o time for McGahee? The following SI pre-draft scouting report has him listed at 4.55 and the NFL Draft Scout link lists the Top 20 40 times from the 1999-05 combines. Obviously he wouldn't have participated in '03 due to the injury but there is only one RB that even makes it (Jay Hinton, Morgan St. 1999) and the fastest time for all players during that period is 4.24 (Rondell Menendez, WR, Eastern Kentucky). Anyway, just curious more than anything as I would be shocked if McGahee is the fasted player to enter the league during that stretch.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/...ayers/1208.html
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratingscombin...LastN&order=ASC
Unfortunately no matter how far removed from the injuries he will never be the player he was. The breakaway speed is not gonna come back and the ceiling for his ultimate potential has inevitably been lowered. (Although, sports medicine has come a long way so it's too early to right him off... Consider: Jamal Lewis became a premier back despite tearing knee ligaments on two separate occassions and McGahee had torn knee ligaments prior to the infamous Fiesta Bowl injury).
That being said durabilty questions are not even my primary concern with Frank Gore. I still think he has sufficient physical tools but I'm not convinced he possesses the requisite intelligence necessary to be an elite RB at the NFL level (he scored a 6 on the Wonderlic). He will no longer be able to rely on pure instincts and he wil not enjoy the same competitive advantage had in HS and early college. And beyond any personal limitations I just don't see SF offense being conducive to any RB's fantasy production this year.
EBF - Do you have a link to support the 4.24 4o time for McGahee? The following SI pre-draft scouting report has him listed at 4.55 and the NFL Draft Scout link lists the Top 20 40 times from the 1999-05 combines. Obviously he wouldn't have participated in '03 due to the injury but there is only one RB that even makes it (Jay Hinton, Morgan St. 1999) and the fastest time for all players during that period is 4.24 (Rondell Menendez, WR, Eastern Kentucky). Anyway, just curious more than anything as I would be shocked if McGahee is the fasted player to enter the league during that stretch.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/...ayers/1208.html
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratingscombin...LastN&order=ASC
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
Unfortunitly if Gore can gain a role in the 49ers offense it might lead to more of RBBC situation than either one emerging as the starter.Personaly I don't really think he will perform well enough for the situation to devolve into this but Barlow was a platoon Rb in college as well.Really it is just up to Barlow. If he struggles again then he could split with Hicks just as easily as Gore.But for those who are seeing Gore as becoming a 200+ carry/season Rb I just dont see where you get the confidence in him to expect that.Maybe it was the dynasty pick you used on him that compells you to this conclushion.I call it reaching.
switz
Footballguy
Except that he was largely said to be overhyped by the majority on these boards when he was drafted. Most here said he would stink, marginal talent, garbage time stats, inferior competition.Same things being said about Gore, except add to it that Gore was injured severely.
Had Gore not been injured, I tihnk the story woul dbe differnet, personally.
At the very least, drafting Gore was a sign the 9ers are not happy with Barlow.
JerseyToughGuys
Tough Guy
Can someone give a summary?How goes the battle (if there is one)?
I am not sure that a "6" is a valid score on the Wonderlic. I think that would be more than 3 standard deviations below the mean from normative sample and more than 4 below that of college students.It would likely attract all sorts of stigmatizing labels involving mental deficiencies....
Irish
Footballguy
Obviously the 49ers liked Gore or they wouldn't have drafted him, but my point to Switz was that if the 49ers were so unhappy with Barlow as their starting rb then they would have taken Brown or got a rb in the 2nd rd instead of waiting to get Gore who has yet to totally overcome the injuries he has suffered over the last couple of yrs.
gman8343
What would Lemmy do?
08/16/05 12:11 PMTHE NEWSRookie running back Frank Gore was back on the practice field on Monday, according to the San Jose Mercury News. The 49ers' third-round draft pick had been sidelined for a week after suffering a right shoulder injury during practice. Gore might make his preseason debut when the Niners face the Broncos on Saturday.
switz
Footballguy
The difference here is that Gore had an injury which pushed him down the draft chart for teams. While we don't know what was going on in the war room on draft day, there is quite a possibility that the 9ers tagetted Gore right from the beginning, knowing he would fall.Additionally, no one denies that there were FAR MORE pressing needs for the 9ers, including that you NEVER pass up the option to draft a franchise QB, hence eliminating Caddy, Benson, and Brown from possible RB picks for the 9ers.
In my opinion, the 9ers did this draft what SD did a few years ago, except in the opposite order. While SD thought Brees could be a franchise QB, they knew he would fall, so they traded down to take LT, and figured they could form their future foundation with LT and Brees. Which in retrospect seems like a good decision.
The 9ers knew this year there were no "franchise" type QBs that could fall, but they MAY HAVE considered Gore a franchise type back that would fall, hence took Smith, and Gore later.
Now this is all supposition, but AT THE VERY LEAST, there is logic to it. There is no way they rank needing an RB above needing a QB, but no one can really deny that both were needs.
We also have to consider the McGahee factor. With Willis' season last year, I'm certain that teams felt Gore could recover at a higher level than they would have had McGahee stunk up the joint.
In fact, had Gore gotten injured toward the end of his collegiate career, no doubt he would have been drafted even higher.
Add to that, many teams draft their "future" starters at RB in later rounds, intentionally! Look at Portis, Bell, CMart, JAnderson, JJones, ... there is even talk in the Bills organization of Lionel Gates (7th round) being groomed as the starter for when McGahee is too expensive to resign.
Plus, Barlow is not the current 9er staff's guy... Gore is...
nightshift
Footballguy
LT2=Barlow? NOT in talent, not in the same situation. Barlow's problem is in his head. If he can straight it out, he will succeed with the 49ers. If not, well, I think the big paydays will be ending soon.
I know. Its just important to push of Switz' blood pressure every so often
No question the 9ers are questioning Barlow, as well they should be after last year. Gore could be the best thing to happen to Barlow, he seems to be a real fiery guy who is itchin to play. Maybe it will light a fire.
switz
Footballguy
I keep hearing this. Why?I definitely understand Gore's injury being a concern, but it's not like Barlow was EVER viewed as a GREAT college RB... Gore was. He's been damaged, but still has more natural talent. IMO.
I don't think either will do much of anything this year, but I do think Gore is the 9ers RB of the future
Irish
Footballguy
First off being a great college rb is not a measure of how well a rb will do in the NFL. Second, Frank Gore was never a great college rb, sure he had a few good games very early in his career before some major knee injuries but that is ancient history and he still has not fully recovered. All you need to do is look at Gore's combine numbers and compare them to the other rbs and you'll realize that Gore is not that good. Posters here that really like Gore always point to what Gore could of been had he not suffered some major injuries, but guess what he did get injured and he hasn't proved that he has recovered from them. Barlow has already run for over 1000 yds with only 4 starts in a season. Barlow is the proven back and Gore is nothing more than rb depth.
Raiders Fan
The Black Hole
I think I would like to see more of Gore before making a judgement that he is nothing more then a backup.. He is a rookie.. let see what the kid learns. At very least we will see how Barlow reacts in the face of possibly losing his job. I don't have either but admit Gore is an interesting flyer pick with big time upside. Will follow this one more closely.
Good Posts!
mcgahee never ran 4.24 - he's not deion
Barlow is not a proven back (if you run for a 1000 yards) (5 yards a carry) while teams are gameplanning for Garrison Heast and absolutely suck and ##### about it the following year because you can't crack a 1000 yards, become benched in favor of Maurice Hicks and your yards per carry decrease to 3 something.
In fact, without the injuries, Gore might have ended up the best of Miami’s recent halfbacks and a clear-cut franchise back in the NFL.
As a freshman on Miami’s 2001 national-championship team, he averaged an astounding 9.1 yards a carry while backing up Portis in Miami’s two-back rotation. As a sophomore, he was set to share time with and perhaps start ahead of McGahee before blowing out his right knee.
Miami's rb coach argued that Gore is better or atleast on par with Edge, Portis and Mcgahee.
Mcgahee and Portis both left early knowing they faced stiff competition from Gore if they returned. However, Portis and Mcgahee were pretty sure they would be first round picks; portis had to settle for 2nd round.
Mcgahee proved he could overcome a disasterous injury and return to elite form.
Gore has not proven he could do it (eventhough the Hurricanes kind of blew last year and Gore had little help on offense.)
Portis proved (in Denver which is questionable) that he can be an elite back in the nfl
Barlow is a total dog that should have never been given 20 million
I hope Gore can return to an elite level someday; he was one of the most talented rb's ever to be recruited out of highschool.
Gore will play this year at some point but Barlow will be the better fantasy back
mcgahee never ran 4.24 - he's not deion
Barlow is not a proven back (if you run for a 1000 yards) (5 yards a carry) while teams are gameplanning for Garrison Heast and absolutely suck and ##### about it the following year because you can't crack a 1000 yards, become benched in favor of Maurice Hicks and your yards per carry decrease to 3 something.
In fact, without the injuries, Gore might have ended up the best of Miami’s recent halfbacks and a clear-cut franchise back in the NFL.
As a freshman on Miami’s 2001 national-championship team, he averaged an astounding 9.1 yards a carry while backing up Portis in Miami’s two-back rotation. As a sophomore, he was set to share time with and perhaps start ahead of McGahee before blowing out his right knee.
Miami's rb coach argued that Gore is better or atleast on par with Edge, Portis and Mcgahee.
Mcgahee and Portis both left early knowing they faced stiff competition from Gore if they returned. However, Portis and Mcgahee were pretty sure they would be first round picks; portis had to settle for 2nd round.
Mcgahee proved he could overcome a disasterous injury and return to elite form.
Gore has not proven he could do it (eventhough the Hurricanes kind of blew last year and Gore had little help on offense.)
Portis proved (in Denver which is questionable) that he can be an elite back in the nfl
Barlow is a total dog that should have never been given 20 million
I hope Gore can return to an elite level someday; he was one of the most talented rb's ever to be recruited out of highschool.
Gore will play this year at some point but Barlow will be the better fantasy back
switz
Footballguy
I agree, Ron Dayne is a good example of that... but talent comparisons CAN be based on college perfromance. Its not like we have any Gore-at-the-NFL-level to compare to Barlow-at-the-NFL-level. Regardless, Gore was more heavily recruited out of HS, and was viewed as a more talented back at the college level.
So his pre-injury career cannot be used as evidence of talent? Give me a break! The reason he had those good games, and beat out other extremely talented RBs is because he is incredibly talented himself.
Sure, you go knock out every other RBs knees, and then run a combine while they are all recovering and we'll compare apples to apples. You know that Gore's combine numbers are not a fair judgement.
You are right, he hasn't proven himself recovered. Yet he is now in his second year, which is when players start to perform closer to their previous level. So now is when he'll start to show it, and apparently in the 9ers camp he has shown it, otherwise there'd be no talk in camp about him beating out Barlow. So why is it wrong for FFers to think that a fully recovered Gore would be viable roster material?
If that's not the most twisted way to use statistics I've ever seen posted on these boards. Yeah, he has, and the only reason he was able to perfrom at that high level is because he was splitting time. He doens't hold up under alot of carries. He wears down as the game goes on. And the only season where he was the primary ball carrier he stunk!
By proven you must mean we know what he can do at the NFL level. Yes we do, and it doesn't impress most on these boards, and obviously not SF either.We don't know what Gore can do, and it's a mixed bag at best right now. But for those willing to take the risk, he has a bigger bang chance than Barlow.
I don't think Gore will start the season as the #1 RB, I tihnk he is good for dynasty purposes only if you can hang onto him til next year when Barlow is gone. I do think both wil lsee the field this year, and that Gore has a better chance of ENDING the season as starter than Barlow.
This is the 5th year now of talk about Barlow becoming the man in San Franscisco. He finally got his chance last year and was pathetic at best. If Gore plays this weekend, shows any kind of flash, and remainst healthy through the rest of of camp, Barlow will be seeing 40% of the running plays in the regular season at best. The only reason Barlow got to start last season is because he 49ers had no legitimate option to go to, and they knew the season was a waist anyway. If Gore doesn't replace Barlow this year, somebody else will next year.
Raiders Fan
The Black Hole
That's why following Gore in the preseason is key to how much they want to lean on him when Barlow pisses of the coaching staff.
kevthegrad
Footballguy
This story is based on ancient (relatively) information. Since this was printed Gore has hurt his shoulder and Barlow has practiced regularly.
I also laugh at quotes about "If Gore doesn't replace Barlow this year, somebody will next year" and "this is the 5th year of people talking about Barlow becoming 'the man'."
Um...can you show me some chatter from 2001 about Barlow being the man? 2002/2003 maybe whispers....2004 the entire team was in the toilet with injuries to Rattay, Dorsey looking like a fish out of water, the O-line doing their best swiss cheese impression, a coach on the way out, and injuires in the early part of the year to members of the D.
While Barlow was totally disappointing last year, he wasn't alone in that category and frankly the entire team was too.
Example of an average or disappointing back on a good team = Antowain Smith winning the Superbowl with New England.
Example of an average (or better....or worse? we don't know) running back on a poor team = Barlow last year.
Lets see what happens this year with an improved O-line, if Rattay can stay healthy or Smith develops into the starter....then I'm ready to give up on Barlow if he continues to have a 3.5 yards per carry average.
Announcing he's a lame duck when the team was such a mess last year is a joke.
Oh...and on the other side of that coin, proclaiming that Gore is not talented at all or just mediocre is also totally out of place....we haven't seen the freakin' guy play yet!
I also laugh at quotes about "If Gore doesn't replace Barlow this year, somebody will next year" and "this is the 5th year of people talking about Barlow becoming 'the man'."
Um...can you show me some chatter from 2001 about Barlow being the man? 2002/2003 maybe whispers....2004 the entire team was in the toilet with injuries to Rattay, Dorsey looking like a fish out of water, the O-line doing their best swiss cheese impression, a coach on the way out, and injuires in the early part of the year to members of the D.
While Barlow was totally disappointing last year, he wasn't alone in that category and frankly the entire team was too.
Example of an average or disappointing back on a good team = Antowain Smith winning the Superbowl with New England.
Example of an average (or better....or worse? we don't know) running back on a poor team = Barlow last year.
Lets see what happens this year with an improved O-line, if Rattay can stay healthy or Smith develops into the starter....then I'm ready to give up on Barlow if he continues to have a 3.5 yards per carry average.
Announcing he's a lame duck when the team was such a mess last year is a joke.
Oh...and on the other side of that coin, proclaiming that Gore is not talented at all or just mediocre is also totally out of place....we haven't seen the freakin' guy play yet!
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Irish
Footballguy
Barlow was a FA last yr and the 49ers resigned him, if they thought the season was a waste they would have saved their money. Barlow has had 1 bad season and the entire team was killed with injuries. Barlow will be the main ball carrier this season for better or for worse for the 49ers this season. Switz bashes Barlow's durability, but yet Gore cannot even stay healthy long enough so far to even practice. And the 49ers are not gonna risk their new million dollar qb by playing a rookie rb who has missed alot of time in camp. Gore is a mediocre talent at best, who just because he went to the U. he is getting love on these boards.
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
Wonder if this guy is a Barlow owner?
Raiders Fan
The Black Hole
You think??[
Wonder if this guy is a Barlow owner?
Amazing how you can easily pick out the pimps. Construction Man Jim
Footballguy
Statements like that are not going to help your credibility.
Franknbeans
Footballguy
I can't believe there is a pro-Barlow camp 
sheerterror
Footballguy
And this has what to do with the NOW? Since 2001 (4 years ago!) Gore has blown out his knee twice. Those clinging to the whole Gore over McGahee and Portis concept need to realize that this hype was prior to two catastrophic knee injuries. Assuming this guy will be a success in the NFL because at one point, 4 years ago and on two healthy knees, he was possibly regarded as highly as two currently succesful NFL backs is just naive thinking.
gman8343
What would Lemmy do?
I don't see it that way. To me it's more like Gore was a supremely talented player -- if he can get back to that level, he could certainly enjoy success in the NFL. Obviously it's not a certain thing, and probably not even likely that he'll be a franchise back, but why would you automatically count him out? At the very least, the situation bears watching.
Franknbeans
Footballguy
Posted by them on August 13th. What does your source say?
Pigskin P
Wicked Smot
I think Barlow will put up similar numbers to last year, maybe a bit more yardage. SF's O line is a joke and a rookie QB doesn't help matters. The Seahawks, Rams and Cardinals D's will feast on them. They will be behind A LOT and there may be some prevent yardage to be had between the 20's for the starting back.If there's any real value in the SF backfield, it's probably Maurice Hicks, who can be picked up long after Barlow and Gore are gone. Frankly, if you're relying on any of them to emerge as a back you can start with confidence, you're dreaming.
Insane Jets Fan
Footballguy
I had been DRIVING the Kevan Barlow bandwagon for the last 4 years. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 4 times, I should probably give up fantasy football for good. But I'm somehow back, and for some reason win money in my leagues.I didn't have time to sift through 5 pages of this argument - but I made it through about 2 of them.I don't feel that this is necessarily an argument is about Frank Gore and what he used to be, could possibly be, or ever will be. All I know if that despite his Wonderlic score, his injury history, and anything else, he's GOT to be better than Maurice Hicks. And Maurice Hicks stole significant time from this dog. Not to mention the ghost of Garrison Hearst, who was probably 3-5 years past his prime and still taking most of the carries there.I DO remember them hyping Gore way back when, but as many of you correctly pointed out, that was 4 years ago at least. However, in a present day configuration, the 49ers felt good enough about him to make him the 1st pick of the 3rd round. And he's the type of case (injury history, didn't play at 100% health in the year before entering draft) that makes for an interesting sleeper. Not 100% hit rate, but at least he potentially had an excuse. And the reason he declared early had more to do with his family's financial situation than anything - ESPN did a piece on this a few months ago.Back to the Barlow Kool-Aid - from someone who had been waiting 4 years for him to break out, hearing positive reports on his attitude is nothing new for this time of year. For 3 years, I thought Hearst was the reason he wasn't the MAN. Classy vet who knows his assignments, stability. But then last year came along, and Hearst barely made the Broncos. Barlow had the job all to himself. So when he fell to me at 2.09, I jumped. I am not proud to say that I drafted him 4 years in a row in one league or the other, and more importantly, that switz was right. But I was finally done when undrafted free agent Hicks got substantial time over him last year.While Gore might not be the answer in San Francisco, I'm willing to bet Barlow isn't either. And I'd rather take a shot on Gore in the 9th thru 12th, than Barlow in the 5th - that's for sure.
