Sabertooth
Footballguy
How has Boyce been looking? I have a roster spot open, thinking of adding him.
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4th Round Rookie WR Gold Mine (Boyce, Harper, Patton) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter EBF
- Start date
ShaHBucks
Footballguy
Last game they targeted him on a few screens. If he broke one, like he can, no one would be talking about Tompkins/Dobson at all this week.
saintfool
Dead sexy
EBF
Footballguy
Generally positive reports out of practices.
If he's on waivers, grab him. He shouldn't be on waivers in any dynasty leagues at this point.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Probably should have expanded this beyond the 4th to 2nd or 3rd to 6th-7th rounders, or just rookie WRs period.
This year only, 2nd round on:
Stills, 5th round, Saints, might end up the best of the bunch.
Patton might have a good year as well.
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EBF
Footballguy
Not looking so hot for these guys at the moment. Patton did a catch a TD from Kaepernick last game, but the other two have been quiet in the preseason.
I still think Boyce will develop into a solid contributor in time. He probably never had WR1 ability in the first place (he's not that tall and he was more "good" than "great" in college), but with his athletic traits it will be hard for him to fail if he has even halfway decent receiving skills, which I think he does. Whatever the depth chart says, I think he'll get opportunities this year. The emergence of Thompkins from left field pretty much eliminates the possibility of a rookie breakout, but I think you'll see some catches and maybe a few big plays.
Harper is in a more precarious situation. Harvin, Rice, Tate, and Baldwin are ahead of him. So are Jermaine Kearse and Stephen Williams. Some people think he'll be cut. I'm not so sure. Harvin is out for a while. That frees up an extra spot if they want 6 healthy WRs. They'll have to weigh the short term value of Kearse/Williams against the long term potential of Harper. Harper hasn't flashed much in the preseason, but he also hasn't been targeted often despite playing a lot of snaps. I suspect we'll see him early and often tonight. I think as long as he makes the 53, there will be cause to remain optimistic. If Seattle cuts him loose, his value will plummet, even though he'd probably get scooped up by someone. You'd hope that he's been impressive enough in practices that Seattle doesn't want to risk losing him. We'll find out soon.
I still think Boyce will develop into a solid contributor in time. He probably never had WR1 ability in the first place (he's not that tall and he was more "good" than "great" in college), but with his athletic traits it will be hard for him to fail if he has even halfway decent receiving skills, which I think he does. Whatever the depth chart says, I think he'll get opportunities this year. The emergence of Thompkins from left field pretty much eliminates the possibility of a rookie breakout, but I think you'll see some catches and maybe a few big plays.
Harper is in a more precarious situation. Harvin, Rice, Tate, and Baldwin are ahead of him. So are Jermaine Kearse and Stephen Williams. Some people think he'll be cut. I'm not so sure. Harvin is out for a while. That frees up an extra spot if they want 6 healthy WRs. They'll have to weigh the short term value of Kearse/Williams against the long term potential of Harper. Harper hasn't flashed much in the preseason, but he also hasn't been targeted often despite playing a lot of snaps. I suspect we'll see him early and often tonight. I think as long as he makes the 53, there will be cause to remain optimistic. If Seattle cuts him loose, his value will plummet, even though he'd probably get scooped up by someone. You'd hope that he's been impressive enough in practices that Seattle doesn't want to risk losing him. We'll find out soon.
MAC_32
Footballguy
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
more like tin foil
cstu
Footballguy
Doesn't look great but this time last year everyone thought Cecil Shorts was a bust as well. My money is still on Boyce developing into something.
EBF
Footballguy
Reverse jinx working to perfection.
40+ yard TDs for Boyce and Patton tonight.
Can Harper complete the trilogy?
Casting Couch
Footballguy
It's over for Harper, unfortunately.
EBF
Footballguy
Inspiration
Footballguy
Harper just dropped another another pass on 3 and 13 that would have gone for a 1st down. Not a good showing for him.
EBF
Footballguy
It seems like he will get the axe. Too bad. I liked his potential there.
I'm surprised that he's dropping passes. He seemed to have really good hands. Carroll has praised him in that department. I don't recall him dropping anything in the game highlights, Senior Bowl practices, or combine drills that I watched. He struggled with separation at times, but once he got his mitts on the ball it was his. Odd way for him to go out if he does indeed get cut.
I'm surprised that he's dropping passes. He seemed to have really good hands. Carroll has praised him in that department. I don't recall him dropping anything in the game highlights, Senior Bowl practices, or combine drills that I watched. He struggled with separation at times, but once he got his mitts on the ball it was his. Odd way for him to go out if he does indeed get cut.
lord_helmet
Footballguy
Too soon to drop him?EBF said:
EBF
Footballguy
If possible, I'd wait to see the cuts this weekend. There's still a chance that Seattle keeps him.
If he makes the 53, I'll probably keep him in all of my leagues. If he gets cut, I'll probably drop him in my shallow leagues.
I do think he'll be on somebody's payroll regardless, but it's a big negative if the Hawks are willing to cut him loose after seeing him up close in 30+ practices.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Chalk one up for the numbers...
Someone will pick him up IMO. With the Seahawks depth they don't have the luxury of carrying a blocking WR. I think other teams will.
cstu
Footballguy
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Im liking Patton and Stills 
Tau837
Footballguy
Sup_Yo
Footballguy
Donnybrook
Footballguy
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000237371/article/chris-harper-leaves-seahawks-for-division-rival-49ers
EBF is going to be so pleased with himself.
They dealt a promising young OLB to make room for Harper, too. They must subscribe to EBF's newsletter.
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
CSN Bay Area's Matt Maiocco believes the 49ers are converting recently signed WR Chris Harper to tight end.
Although he lacks ideal height, Harper is built like a tight end at 6-foot-1, 229 pounds, while his 4.55 speed isn't prohibitive for a receiver, but is far better for a tight end. Strong handed, Harper did his best work after the catch at Kansas State. It's an idea that might not stick, but would seem to be worth trying after Seattle made Harper the rare fourth-round pick to get cut. Either way, Harper will likely be limited to special teams if he manages to keep his roster spot.
Although he lacks ideal height, Harper is built like a tight end at 6-foot-1, 229 pounds, while his 4.55 speed isn't prohibitive for a receiver, but is far better for a tight end. Strong handed, Harper did his best work after the catch at Kansas State. It's an idea that might not stick, but would seem to be worth trying after Seattle made Harper the rare fourth-round pick to get cut. Either way, Harper will likely be limited to special teams if he manages to keep his roster spot.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
The bigger news is the possibility that they will use him as a tweener TE/WR - similar to Arron Hernandez in height and weight. It won't matter much if he keeps dropping the ball.thecatch said:
EBF
Footballguy
Too bad about Harper. I have to apologize if anyone used a high pick on him because of my advice. It's not looking good right now.
He was an intriguing experiment. A good test case to see how much a jumbo frame could compensate for a lack of explosiveness. The answer is apparently not very much. I thought his strength, bulk, and hands would allow him to be effective regardless of the fact that he's not tremendous in terms of initial separation and short area explosiveness, but that doesn't appear to be the case. My expectations of him moving forward are pretty low.
I think I've always been pretty decent at judging RB talent, but my results at WR have been spotty. I've been trying to improve there in recent seasons. This time around I spent more time and energy evaluating the players than ever before. I think I have a good handle on who these guys are, but what I don't fully understand is which traits are essential for success and which are luxury or supplementary. I still need to see what guys like Randle, Hopkins, and Hunter do before I feel totally confident, but certain things are already coming into focus.
When I watched the combine drills in February, I tried to get a sense for who were the most fluid athletes. You can see the tiered rankings below, with the first tier in bold:
The early results have been really unkind to "good frame/bad movement" players like Marcus Davis, Chris Harper, Mark Harrison, and Da'Rick Rogers. These guys look like Pro Bowlers getting off the bus and some of them even lit up the combine drills, but none of them had the ideal precision and fluidity of movement. I think that's probably a big factor in their early struggles.
Looking forward, I think I'm going to place more emphasis on overall movement skills with frame thickness and combine explosiveness used to supplement that analysis and distinguish prospects at the top of the ladder from one another. The ideal receiver is a big receiver with exceptional movement skills (VJax, Demaryius, Dez). Once those guys are gone, it appears that the fluid movers with spotty weight or explosiveness (Woods, Hopkins, Sanders, Patton) have an edge over the height/weight/speed guys who aren't fluid (Rogers, Harrison, Davis). That will be a big guiding principle in future rankings.
He was an intriguing experiment. A good test case to see how much a jumbo frame could compensate for a lack of explosiveness. The answer is apparently not very much. I thought his strength, bulk, and hands would allow him to be effective regardless of the fact that he's not tremendous in terms of initial separation and short area explosiveness, but that doesn't appear to be the case. My expectations of him moving forward are pretty low.
I think I've always been pretty decent at judging RB talent, but my results at WR have been spotty. I've been trying to improve there in recent seasons. This time around I spent more time and energy evaluating the players than ever before. I think I have a good handle on who these guys are, but what I don't fully understand is which traits are essential for success and which are luxury or supplementary. I still need to see what guys like Randle, Hopkins, and Hunter do before I feel totally confident, but certain things are already coming into focus.
When I watched the combine drills in February, I tried to get a sense for who were the most fluid athletes. You can see the tiered rankings below, with the first tier in bold:
It's really early, but so far all of the first tier guys are at least looking like decent prospects. Nobody from that tier has disintegrated yet, whereas some of the second and third cluster guys have already washed out from one team (Harper, Hamilton, Davis, Rogers). Goard and Kaufman washed out as expected.
The early results have been really unkind to "good frame/bad movement" players like Marcus Davis, Chris Harper, Mark Harrison, and Da'Rick Rogers. These guys look like Pro Bowlers getting off the bus and some of them even lit up the combine drills, but none of them had the ideal precision and fluidity of movement. I think that's probably a big factor in their early struggles.
Looking forward, I think I'm going to place more emphasis on overall movement skills with frame thickness and combine explosiveness used to supplement that analysis and distinguish prospects at the top of the ladder from one another. The ideal receiver is a big receiver with exceptional movement skills (VJax, Demaryius, Dez). Once those guys are gone, it appears that the fluid movers with spotty weight or explosiveness (Woods, Hopkins, Sanders, Patton) have an edge over the height/weight/speed guys who aren't fluid (Rogers, Harrison, Davis). That will be a big guiding principle in future rankings.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
EBF
Footballguy
The holy grail at WR is the player like Julio Jones or Vincent Jackson who has excellent economy of motion in conjunction with special athletic traits. The problem is that there might only be one of those guys (if that) per draft, if that. Which means the challenge of scouting these guys is trying to determine which second tier talent's flaws are the least problematic. Do you take the big guy who lacks a bit of suddenness (Harper)? Do you take the explosive and productive mite (Austin)? Do you take the explosive string bean with no strength or bulk whatsoever (Justin Hunter)? Do you take the solid football player who lacks dynamic explosiveness or bulk (Woods)? These were the difficult questions for me when I was moving through this year's WR class. Boyce was a fairly easy spot because he combines ideal bulk/explosiveness with fluid movement, but others like Rogers and Hunter were tougher to pin down. In the end, I rolled the dice on Harper in many places and came up snake eyes. Lesson learned.
Seeing guys like Baldwin, Marcus Davis, Harper, Rogers, and Harrison (who tbf I never liked) bust says a lot about the viability of big receivers with sub par movement skills. They don't work. Maybe that doesn't surprise everyone, but it's been educational for me. Next year the number one thing I'm going to ask is whether or not the player is a sharp, precise, fluid, and economical athlete. Without that quality, he's dead in the water. Where the height/weight/explosiveness appears most useful is in distinguishing between the fluid guys. In other words, a big/explosive fluid WR like Marqise Lee is a better prospect than smaller/explosive fluid WR like Odell Beckham. However, I'd take either one of them over a height/weight/speed guy with wonky route runner and movement.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
EBF
Footballguy
It is to me. To some extent, anyway.
Now if only I could have a quick look at the career stats for Rueben Randle and Justin Hunter. That would fill in a lot of what I'm not sure about re: WR prospects.
JFS171
Footballguy
Josh Boyce time in New England?
--Amendola down with what could be a multi-week injury.
--Gronk still not back - may be a stretch for Week 3.
--Thompkins got a ton of targets, but didn't do much with them against a suspect secondary... whispers that the game was just too big for him
--Dobson coming back off injury, and didn't look THAT impressive to begin with
Bumping the thread for updated thoughts on Boyce... and let's not forget, Edelman isn't exactly an ironman out there.
--Amendola down with what could be a multi-week injury.
--Gronk still not back - may be a stretch for Week 3.
--Thompkins got a ton of targets, but didn't do much with them against a suspect secondary... whispers that the game was just too big for him
--Dobson coming back off injury, and didn't look THAT impressive to begin with
Bumping the thread for updated thoughts on Boyce... and let's not forget, Edelman isn't exactly an ironman out there.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
I did not plan to draft Boyce in my rookie draft but he just fell to me in the middle of the 3rd.
I got to say that Bill is one of the few coaches that doesn't care where a player was drafted as long as they produce. Boyce was very impressive in the final preseason game. He could end up being the Pats go-to-guy by the end of the year.
I got to say that Bill is one of the few coaches that doesn't care where a player was drafted as long as they produce. Boyce was very impressive in the final preseason game. He could end up being the Pats go-to-guy by the end of the year.
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EBF
Footballguy
We'll see what he can do. I'm not expecting anything incredible this year. It seems like it's taking him a while to learn the system and adjust to the speed of the pro game. I would not expect to see the best Josh Boyce for another year or two. The athletic tools are there to make an impact though. His speed, quickness, and explosiveness are unrivaled on New England's roster.
Kenny Powers
Footballguy
Was real disappointed Patton only got one snap last week. When you see Kaep hitting Boldin and VD on so many deep routes, it just seems like Patton is the perfect complement to those guys for that passing game.
No harm no foul though, Patton made it easy for me to know he was the end of my bench and drop him.
No harm no foul though, Patton made it easy for me to know he was the end of my bench and drop him.
