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☹ Official 2020 Las Vegas Raiders thread ☹ (1 Viewer)

32 Counter Pass

Footballguy
The talk of moving the team's most productive players strikes me as crazy. I would hope that at minimum the fans have learned from fall out of trading Mack and Cooper. Neither move has worked out. The team has failed to replace elite talent thru the draft / FA.  Al Davis, in his prime, would have never trade elite talent. 

 

DocHolliday

Footballguy
The talk of moving the team's most productive players strikes me as crazy. I would hope that at minimum the fans have learned from fall out of trading Mack and Cooper. Neither move has worked out. The team has failed to replace elite talent thru the draft / FA.  Al Davis, in his prime, would have never trade elite talent. 
The Raiders can’t trade away any of the talent that they have.  The Raiders still don’t have WR or DE talent any where close to Mack or Cooper.  Talk of trading away Waller is nuts.   Wining teams don’t get rid of talent.  They fleece the stupid teams like the Raiders out of talent.   Waller is the best player on the team by far and the only receiving threat on the team.  The Raiders have proven multiple times that they can’t draft WR talent.  Even their FA moves have mostly been huge fails.  

 

Ed Wood

Footballguy
The talk of moving the team's most productive players strikes me as crazy. I would hope that at minimum the fans have learned from fall out of trading Mack and Cooper. Neither move has worked out. The team has failed to replace elite talent thru the draft / FA.  Al Davis, in his prime, would have never trade elite talent. 


The Raiders can’t trade away any of the talent that they have.  The Raiders still don’t have WR or DE talent any where close to Mack or Cooper.  Talk of trading away Waller is nuts.   Wining teams don’t get rid of talent.  They fleece the stupid teams like the Raiders out of talent.   Waller is the best player on the team by far and the only receiving threat on the team.  The Raiders have proven multiple times that they can’t draft WR talent.  Even their FA moves have mostly been huge fails.  
I can only assume these were directed at me. 😉 That's cool. 32 Counter Pass, it seems really obvious you think Gruden has to go. (You do bring up a very good point about Al and elite talent. Well said!) Doc, it seems pretty obvious you think Mayock needs to go. (And I really like your sentence about fleecing "stupid" teams like the Raiders...that hurts but sometimes the truth does that.)

Is that your solution, blow the whole thing up and start over? Potentially three more years or so of mediocrity or so and see where things stand? As Gruden said (paraphrasing) the D sucked with Mack, it won't get much worse without him. The O is very good with Waller and it could take a hit if it means a significant upgrade on defense.

I'll listen. 👍

 

32 Counter Pass

Footballguy
Ed, there is a saying among GM's: You replace talent with talent. That is the lens through which I view each team's moves. I maintain getting rid of Mack and Cooper were horrible moves. Mack literally could win a game by himself thru pressures, sacks and turnovers. The Raiders could have tagged him and tried to add pieces thru the draft and FA. Instead they traded him and we then had to listen to Gruden whine about not being able to pressure the QB every season thereafter. No one knows whether or not the defense could have been improved with that approach, but what is certain is that a Mack led defense would still be able to pressure the QB. 

Next bone head move was to trade Cooper then spend multiple picks and FA signings trying to replace his production. 

I think Gruden is a decent offensive mind but does not have enough focus on the defense. I have heard that his practice plans are offensive focused (Mike Lombardi mentioned it again this morning in his podcast). I am not sure at his age if Gruden can change. What is certain is that Gruden should not have the final say in the draft decisions. He has a long history of drafting poorly. I would argue that he should not have the final say in FA signings either. For example, the signing of Witten still baffles me. It stunted the growth of Moreau, who is a much bigger offensive threat than Witten at this point. I sometimes feel like Gruden is like a kid collecting football cards when he signs these old vets.

Everything I have read indicates Gruden has the final say in all things related to personal so Mayock gets a pass in my book.

 

kaso

Footballguy
Put me firmly at the top of the list of those that would think it would be absolutely bonkers and counter productive to move on from Gruden or Carr.

The modern day NFL has shown that for consistent chance of winning games you cannot continue to replace your HC and QB.  Just doesn't work. 
Gruden is not going anywhere, and a new QB (FA or Rookie) will not come close to running this offence to the effectiveness that Carr will in 2021.   Should they draft a QB next season, sure I can buy that idea.  Unless Mariota or Peterman prove enough (fans will never know) in the meetings, practices, and otherwise to continue to hold those spots. 

And did Haskins really get mentioned as a replacement for Carr?  Darnold, maybe I could see the argument for him IF you are deadset on moving from Carr.  But I don't see Darnold in a different tier than Carr.   

And Del Rio over Gruden?  That 12-4 season was just as much my doing as Del Rio's.  

As a fan base are we really wanting to go back to the retread coaches who can't land a job anywhere else, a GM like Reggie, and past QBs (Pryor, Palmer, Campbell, RUSSELL)... my gosh.   As a fan base we have been put through the ringer and back.  I don't want those days back.  

Looking forward to 2021, the team must find a DC.  And add players that can excel in the system the DC installs.  They need to find a WR who can a.) stay healthy and b.) contribute.   This teams leading receiver for 4 years straight has been a TE (Cook back to back and Waller back to back).  

 

32 Counter Pass

Footballguy
And Del Rio over Gruden?  That 12-4 season was just as much my doing as Del Rio's.  
I am not a Del Rio fan but this is an absurd comment.

.  As a fan base are we really wanting to go back to the retread coaches who can't land a job anywhere else, a GM like Reggie,
Maybe I missed it but I didn’t see any posts advocating hiring retread coaches. To be clear about my previous post, Gruden must change his approach and relinquish personnel decisions if the team wants to take the next step. He is an 8-8 coach give or take a game if he cannot change.

As for Reggie, I think he gets a bad rap by the fans. He drafted Gabe Jackson, Carr, Mack, Cooper, Miller, Parker, and Hurst. He also signed Hudson, Crabtree, and Osemele. We can only wish the current front office has this kind of success.

 
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DA RAIDERS

willy t flyers
Does he though?  We have no pass rush.  Ferrel was a reach and hasn't had an impact, Abram is massively overrated when you add his negative value from missed plays and assignments, and Mullen looks like trash.  Passing on Lamb for Ruggs looks like a huge failure.  Arnette was a huge reach and better pay off but looks more like Mullen than Asomugha at this point.  We've already dumped a 2020 3rd round pick (who has flashed lately with his new team).  Our FA signings have been mostly a miss - Agholor is useful but still disappears too much and Kwiatkowski is a nice effort guy but he's physically outmatched out there if one is honest with oneself but we haven't had a big impact guy yet.  Brown could be if someone can motivate him and get him on the field but so far we haven't gotten our money's worth on that one either.

I want him to be a success, we NEED him to be a success, but the preliminary results don't bear it out yet - especially in the last 5 weeks.
“Seems  to be good”. I’m not sold on him. I hated the hire when it made. But not nearly as much as the Gruden hire. 

 

ICON211

Footballguy
I am not a Del Rio fan but this is an absurd comment.

Maybe I missed it but I didn’t see any posts advocating hiring retread coaches. To be clear about my previous post, Gruden must change his approach and relinquish personnel decisions if the team wants to take the next step. He is an 8-8 coach give or take a game if he cannot change.

As for Reggie, I think he gets a bad rap by the fans. He drafted Gabe Jackson, Carr, Mack, Cooper, Miller, Parker, and Hurst. He also signed Hudson, Crabtree, and Osemele. We can only wish the current front office has this kind of success.
Seven years as GM, one playoff appearance, no playoff wins, a 40-72 record and needing another complete rebuild at the end of year six tends to have people think negatively.  The fact that the guy has not even been considered for another GM job by any other team is telling.  His tenure was a total failure.

 

DocHolliday

Footballguy
I can only assume these were directed at me. 😉 That's cool. 32 Counter Pass, it seems really obvious you think Gruden has to go. (You do bring up a very good point about Al and elite talent. Well said!) Doc, it seems pretty obvious you think Mayock needs to go. (And I really like your sentence about fleecing "stupid" teams like the Raiders...that hurts but sometimes the truth does that.)

Is that your solution, blow the whole thing up and start over? Potentially three more years or so of mediocrity or so and see where things stand? As Gruden said (paraphrasing) the D sucked with Mack, it won't get much worse without him. The O is very good with Waller and it could take a hit if it means a significant upgrade on defense.

I'll listen. 👍
There is no reason to blow up the offense but the D needs a total revamp.   There is a good core of talent on O but there are no elite players that must stay on D.   Grudens draft this year was the final straw for me.    A few elite WRs were available but the Raiders went with the fast decoy and followed it up with the often injured and lost guy in the third.   Why isn’t there more outcry by the fans for missing twice on WR in the first 3 rounds!?   It is obvious that Gruden cannot draft and this team will lose until Gruden goes away.  Gruden is no more than a good offense coordinator.   I don’t think it matters if Mayock stays or goes.  If he agrees with Grudens decisions, he needs to go.    If Mayock wanted other players and his opinion is ignored, there is no reason for him to remain on the staff.  

 

DocHolliday

Footballguy
I am not a Del Rio fan but this is an absurd comment.

Maybe I missed it but I didn’t see any posts advocating hiring retread coaches. To be clear about my previous post, Gruden must change his approach and relinquish personnel decisions if the team wants to take the next step. He is an 8-8 coach give or take a game if he cannot change.

As for Reggie, I think he gets a bad rap by the fans. He drafted Gabe Jackson, Carr, Mack, Cooper, Miller, Parker, and Hurst. He also signed Hudson, Crabtree, and Osemele. We can only wish the current front office has this kind of success.
Reggie brought in 10 times the talent compared to Gruden.  I’m still amazed how much other Raider fans love Gruden.  I don’t get it.  Snarls, swearing, and scrunchy faces don’t win games.   I will always be a Raider fan but this team isn’t going to the playoffs under Gruden.   I hope Gruden is tired of being embarrassed and has more money than he knows what to do with in a couple of years and retires.   

 

32 Counter Pass

Footballguy
Seven years as GM, one playoff appearance, no playoff wins, a 40-72 record and needing another complete rebuild at the end of year six tends to have people think negatively.  The fact that the guy has not even been considered for another GM job by any other team is telling.  His tenure was a total failure.
Of the 7 players I listed in my previous post 2 are All-Pro candidates (Mack and Cooper), 4 are solid starters on the current team and 1 is a nice swing tackle. I think that compares very favorably to what we have seen from this regime. Very few former GMs get a second chance so that is anecdotal info. Get back to me when this regime can show at minimum the same number of hits in the draft and FA. 

You are looking at Reggie's tenure in. a vacuum. Remember that the Raiders were in cap hell thanks to Al's crazy spending sprees. First two years are on Al in my view. 

 

Ksquared

Footballguy
I can't take it anymore, Doc, Da Raiders, and a couple of you other "Raider" fans have hated on Gruden from the time he was hired and for most of you 3-4 also hated on Mayock.  Your bias is such that it does not matter short of a Super Bowl that either should be around the Raiders.  

Go look back about two months ago in this thread when things were going well, either you did not post at all or commented how you were wrong about Gruden and he still has "it".  Especially after the KC win.  What happened between then and now other than the Raiders losing?  Gruden suddenly not get it again I guess.  And we cannot forget we need to get rid of Carr for ...anyone.

It is flipping 2020 and the Raiders got screwed up with several weeks of Covid issues...if you look back that time frame is when things started to fall apart.  I think next year the Raiders are going to continue to get better and will be looking at 9-10 wins, which with KC and SD in the division will be doing well.

Get over it, Gruden and Mayock are not going anywhere next year and lets focus on what can be done to help the horrible Raider defense.

 

Bruno2

Footballguy
All the talk of replacing Carr just baffles me and just goes to show the average fan really has no clue. It takes years to learn and play well in Gruden's offense, we've been over this multiple times. Imagine if you will, Carr were to get traded to a well run organization like New England or New Orleans (if Brees retires). I would bet my 401k that Carr could take those teams to the playoffs. Better defenses and better skill players around him. I will say it one last time.... DC is NOT the problem. If you want to advocate firing Gruden, I get it, he's made some bad decisions but Carr is one of the few bright spots in the whole organization. The offense as a whole isn't even the issue, and c'mon, give Ruggs a little more time than one COVID season. And if Gruden stays, he would never trade Waller, now will he pay him to be the highest paid TE in history? That will be interesting to watch unfold when the time comes. 

The whole problem with this team is the damn defense! It has been the problem for almost 20 years. From Al Davis to Reggie to Mayock, nobody has been able to build anything resembling a good defense. Reggie finally drafts an elite pass rusher, but can't build around him, and Gruden didn't want to pay him. There's way too many wasted high draft picks on safeties and no attempts to draft stud LBs or DTs high in drafts. And most of the free agents have been complete busts. 

Defense is a mindset, the whole organization has to be defensive minded, it has to become the identity of the franchise. What do we think of when we talk about teams like Baltimore, New England and Pittsburgh? Defense! No matter the personnel, they always seem to have great to solid defense. As long as Gruden is HC, that will never happen. 

 

ICON211

Footballguy
Of the 7 players I listed in my previous post 2 are All-Pro candidates (Mack and Cooper), 4 are solid starters on the current team and 1 is a nice swing tackle. I think that compares very favorably to what we have seen from this regime. Very few former GMs get a second chance so that is anecdotal info. Get back to me when this regime can show at minimum the same number of hits in the draft and FA. 

You are looking at Reggie's tenure in. a vacuum. Remember that the Raiders were in cap hell thanks to Al's crazy spending sprees. First two years are on Al in my view. 
Well you said Gruden is calling the shots.  That would mean the 2018 draft are Gruden picks so take Miller, Parker and Hurst off the Reggie list.  Amari Cooper has also never been an all pro.  Even if you give those guys to Reggie you think 1 all pro, 5 solid starters and a swing tackle is something to be proud of in 7 drafts????  And if you take the 2018 guys away, which were likely Gruden decisions, his drafting might be the worst in the league.

 

ICON211

Footballguy
All the talk of replacing Carr just baffles me and just goes to show the average fan really has no clue. It takes years to learn and play well in Gruden's offense, we've been over this multiple times. Imagine if you will, Carr were to get traded to a well run organization like New England or New Orleans (if Brees retires). I would bet my 401k that Carr could take those teams to the playoffs. Better defenses and better skill players around him. I will say it one last time.... DC is NOT the problem. If you want to advocate firing Gruden, I get it, he's made some bad decisions but Carr is one of the few bright spots in the whole organization. The offense as a whole isn't even the issue, and c'mon, give Ruggs a little more time than one COVID season. And if Gruden stays, he would never trade Waller, now will he pay him to be the highest paid TE in history? That will be interesting to watch unfold when the time comes. 

The whole problem with this team is the damn defense! It has been the problem for almost 20 years. From Al Davis to Reggie to Mayock, nobody has been able to build anything resembling a good defense. Reggie finally drafts an elite pass rusher, but can't build around him, and Gruden didn't want to pay him. There's way too many wasted high draft picks on safeties and no attempts to draft stud LBs or DTs high in drafts. And most of the free agents have been complete busts. 

Defense is a mindset, the whole organization has to be defensive minded, it has to become the identity of the franchise. What do we think of when we talk about teams like Baltimore, New England and Pittsburgh? Defense! No matter the personnel, they always seem to have great to solid defense. As long as Gruden is HC, that will never happen. 
Carr is definitely not the problem, but I think he is replaceable.  He also probably could take those other teams to the playoffs.  But this team might be better using his $25M and upgrading the defense.

 

Bruno2

Footballguy
Carr is definitely not the problem, but I think he is replaceable.  He also probably could take those other teams to the playoffs.  But this team might be better using his $25M and upgrading the defense.
Everyone is replaceable, my rambling point was that fixing the horrible defense should be priority #1. We shouldn't even be talking about Derek Carr or the offense right now. 

 

ICON211

Footballguy
Everyone is replaceable, my rambling point was that fixing the horrible defense should be priority #1. We shouldn't even be talking about Derek Carr or the offense right now. 
I understand your point and I completely agree that fixing the defense is the top priority.  Taking the $25M savings they would get from moving on from Carr could go towards that end.  If Gruden thinks that he can work with Mariota and could get similar production from him that he can from Carr that is one possible way to go.

 

32 Counter Pass

Footballguy
Well you said Gruden is calling the shots.  That would mean the 2018 draft are Gruden picks so take Miller, Parker and Hurst off the Reggie list.  Amari Cooper has also never been an all pro.  Even if you give those guys to Reggie you think 1 all pro, 5 solid starters and a swing tackle is something to be proud of in 7 drafts????  And if you take the 2018 guys away, which were likely Gruden decisions, his drafting might be the worst in the league.
Yes, Gruden is calling the shots AFTER Mayock was hired. Mayock tweeted this out multiple times. You are assuming that Gruden was calling the shots when Reggie was GM. Neither of us knows for sure but I do recall that Davis spoke very highly of Reggie and gave him control of the football operations when Reggie was hired. I believe Reggie was forced out because Gruden wanted to have final say in personnel matters. Either way, you cannot arbitrarily eliminate a draft class when Reggie was GM.

 

DA RAIDERS

willy t flyers
I can't take it anymore, Doc, Da Raiders, and a couple of you other "Raider" fans have hated on Gruden from the time he was hired and for most of you 3-4 also hated on Mayock.  Your bias is such that it does not matter short of a Super Bowl that either should be around the Raiders.  

Go look back about two months ago in this thread when things were going well, either you did not post at all or commented how you were wrong about Gruden and he still has "it".  Especially after the KC win.  What happened between then and now other than the Raiders losing?  Gruden suddenly not get it again I guess.  And we cannot forget we need to get rid of Carr for ...anyone.

It is flipping 2020 and the Raiders got screwed up with several weeks of Covid issues...if you look back that time frame is when things started to fall apart.  I think next year the Raiders are going to continue to get better and will be looking at 9-10 wins, which with KC and SD in the division will be doing well.

Get over it, Gruden and Mayock are not going anywhere next year and lets focus on what can be done to help the horrible Raider defense.
I’ve been over this before.  Don’t question my fandom.  I love the raiders. Always have. Always will.

However!  That doesn’t turn me into a moron, with blinders on.  Should I still be defending Jamarcus russel?  Simply because he wore silver and black?  How about that piece of ####, lane kiffen?  

I hated the Gruden hire from day 1. I think he’s a clown. And he’s done nothing to change my opinion of him. I think the game has passed him by.  He hires friends.  Makes Terrible decisions over and over. Both in personnel, on and off the field.   his playcalling, at times, just makes no sense. He’s stubborn as a mule. Thinks he’s always right, no matter what.  If you like that, good on you.  But I’m gonna call it as I see it. :shrug:

 

DA RAIDERS

willy t flyers
I understand your point and I completely agree that fixing the defense is the top priority.  Taking the $25M savings they would get from moving on from Carr could go towards that end.  If Gruden thinks that he can work with Mariota and could get similar production from him that he can from Carr that is one possible way to go.
Carr is a bargain at this point. 

 

ICON211

Footballguy
Yes, Gruden is calling the shots AFTER Mayock was hired. Mayock tweeted this out multiple times. You are assuming that Gruden was calling the shots when Reggie was GM. Neither of us knows for sure but I do recall that Davis spoke very highly of Reggie and gave him control of the football operations when Reggie was hired. I believe Reggie was forced out because Gruden wanted to have final say in personnel matters. Either way, you cannot arbitrarily eliminate a draft class when Reggie was GM.
I don't think it's a stretch to assume Gruden had the ultimate decision power on all personnel the second he was hired.

 
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32 Counter Pass

Footballguy
I don't think it's a stretch to assume Gruden had the ultimate decision power on all personnel the second he was hired.
And I don’t think it is a stretch to think Reggie had the final say, which would explain his firing. Like I said, we don’t know for sure so you cannot arbitrarily remove a draft when he served as GM.

 

DocHolliday

Footballguy
Carr is a bargain at this point. 
Carr isn’t the problem.   The O is good enough to win games and would be really good with a true WR1.    Seems like we should all agree on that point   

The D is horrible at best.   The Raiders should have lost to the Jets but were fortunate to get the a nucklehead not playing prevent D for the last play.   The Dolphins would have scored 40 points if they were wise enough to start Fitz over Tua.   Tua is not ready for the NFL and was the only reason that game was close.   The Raiders D got worse as the season progressed which is a bad sign for next season.  The Raiders need 7 or 8 new starters on D before the D stands a chance on stopping anyone   

the Raiders need a true GM with total control over personnel decisions and a DC with total control of all decisions related to the D.  

 

DocHolliday

Footballguy
I can't take it anymore, Doc, Da Raiders, and a couple of you other "Raider" fans have hated on Gruden from the time he was hired and for most of you 3-4 also hated on Mayock.  Your bias is such that it does not matter short of a Super Bowl that either should be around the Raiders.  

Go look back about two months ago in this thread when things were going well, either you did not post at all or commented how you were wrong about Gruden and he still has "it".  Especially after the KC win.  What happened between then and now other than the Raiders losing?  Gruden suddenly not get it again I guess.  And we cannot forget we need to get rid of Carr for ...anyone.

It is flipping 2020 and the Raiders got screwed up with several weeks of Covid issues...if you look back that time frame is when things started to fall apart.  I think next year the Raiders are going to continue to get better and will be looking at 9-10 wins, which with KC and SD in the division will be doing well.

Get over it, Gruden and Mayock are not going anywhere next year and lets focus on what can be done to help the horrible Raider defense.
The reason for some fans coming to their senses due to the losing is that reality hit.   The lack of talent on D is painful.  It was bad and got worse.   Questionable draft picks with supposed potential didn’t develop at all.  Why do the Raiders get to use the lack of preseason and Covid as excuses during the entire season?    No team had a preseason and most teams faced Covid challenges.   Shouldn’t the lack of following Covid protocol go back to the snarling leader?   How did other rookie WRs such as Lamb, Jefferson, Higgins, Pittman, Aiyuk, and Claypool actually overcome the same challenges as Ruggs and Edwards.  

I will always be a Raider fan but I’m not going to be an idiot by believing every year that next year will be better.    I’m supposed to believe that Gruden is going to find 7-8 new starters for the D in one offseason?   I want to see him just find one.   

 

DA RAIDERS

willy t flyers
Carr isn’t the problem.   The O is good enough to win games and would be really good with a true WR1.    Seems like we should all agree on that point   

The D is horrible at best.   The Raiders should have lost to the Jets but were fortunate to get the a nucklehead not playing prevent D for the last play.   The Dolphins would have scored 40 points if they were wise enough to start Fitz over Tua.   Tua is not ready for the NFL and was the only reason that game was close.   The Raiders D got worse as the season progressed which is a bad sign for next season.  The Raiders need 7 or 8 new starters on D before the D stands a chance on stopping anyone   

the Raiders need a true GM with total control over personnel decisions and a DC with total control of all decisions related to the D.  
I agree on carr. He pretty good, makes some horrible choices sometimes. And he must have wee baby hands, as much as he fumbles.  He’s top 15  easy  

Agree 100% on the defensive side of the ball  

and unfortunately, with Gruden and his 100 mil, your last point, will never come to pass until he’s gone. 

 
LOL at people pining for the days of Reggie McKenzie and holding him up as the embodiment as a guy who finds great picks that much more than the current FO.

Tons of pointing fingers, some well-deserved (need a freaking D; better red zone play-calling), some...decidedly not so.

This team needs to build depth on D in the off-season. Tons of rookie and second year players on both sides of the ball that are still learning, and FAs who haven't panned out outside of Kwiat to fill holes.

This is an embarrassing end to a season, more so as it's 100% deja vu from last year. Nothing changed despite the changes.

And things still need to change -- a lot -- going forward: personnel-wise, play-calling-wise, and this team needs to be disciplined and fired up to play 100% (and 100% smart) each and every play, all 60 mins.

Like everyone else, this season leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. But I think we have seen demonstrable proof that we have better pieces than we had last year (despite the record) and looked more competitive (at least on offense) than we did last year.

I think things are still trending up, but we absolutely need to have a quality DC who inspires players and takes the raw skill and proven strengths we have on D (Max, Cle, Abram, Arnette, and Kwiat) and help them all grow further, build around what they can build to the table and put together a squad that brings what we don't have right now -- lock down coverage in man and much better scheme and skill in getting to the QB.

Stuff needs to change, for sure. This team does not need to be blown up, and Carr deserved a team who can back him on both sides of the ball for once in his career.

 

LawFitz

Footballguy
Fix the D and this is a 10 win team.

^^^ Easier said than done. New DC will be the monumental pivot for the Grudock regime. Let's see how that goes.

As for Carr, I've been critical of him plenty, but until you can find a top-flight replacement, he's more than serviceable. G/L finding that replacement tho. I don't see any Gannons out there for the plucking (seems Ryan Tannehill was that guy). Trade Mariotta for a 2nd-3rd rd pick and roll that into a rookie QB to serve as backup and groomee. Or even better, give the new D Coordinator one of several premium hand selections.

The above stated, if Justin Fields falls (and I think he might), I wouldn't mind swiping him in Rd 1. That kid fits the mold of a modern NFL QB (mobile w/an arm and elite college passing pedigree). Look at the top young QBs in the league - Mahomes, Watson, Allen, Jackson, Murray, Burrow, Hurts. What do they all have in common? Steve Young laid the foundation. Rodgers & Wilson built on it. And the top youngins are almost universally now in that mold.

---

ETA: PFF's Top-Ten 2021 Draft QB Prospects - Fields, Wilson & Newman all looking intriguing. Also, thought of one potential 2021 free agent who *might* fit the Tannehill/Gannon model for Gruden, IF they decide to move on from Carr - Mitch Trubisky (try not to throw up in your mouth).

 
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DocHolliday

Footballguy
Go back and read pages 13-16.  Funny to read the draft chatter. 
Hated the first round 8 months ago and hate it more today.  The Edwards pick looks worse now than then.   I saw nothing this season to indicate that he is going to be with the team in a couple of years.    The Bowden discussion is even worse.    Total waste of a pick for the Raiders but may be a nice player for the Dolphins as they battle for the playoffs.   

 

DA RAIDERS

willy t flyers
Hated the first round 8 months ago and hate it more today.  The Edwards pick looks worse now than then.   I saw nothing this season to indicate that he is going to be with the team in a couple of years.    The Bowden discussion is even worse.    Total waste of a pick for the Raiders but may be a nice player for the Dolphins as they battle for the playoffs.   
you and me both!  i was higher on edwards, but concerned about his health.  i was CRYING out for some defense.  no hybrids, no injured dbs.  such is life, as a raider fan.

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
LawFitz said:
Fix the D and this is a 10 win team.

^^^ Easier said than done. New DC will be the monumental pivot for the Grudock regime. Let's see how that goes.

As for Carr, I've been critical of him plenty, but until you can find a top-flight replacement, he's more than serviceable. G/L finding that replacement tho. I don't see any Gannons out there for the plucking (seems Ryan Tannehill was that guy). Trade Mariotta for a 2nd-3rd rd pick and roll that into a rookie QB to serve as backup and groomee. Or even better, give the new D Coordinator one of several premium hand selections.

The above stated, if Justin Fields falls (and I think he might), I wouldn't mind swiping him in Rd 1. That kid fits the mold of a modern NFL QB (mobile w/an arm and elite college passing pedigree). Look at the top young QBs in the league - Mahomes, Watson, Allen, Jackson, Murray, Burrow, Hurts. What do they all have in common? Steve Young laid the foundation. Rodgers & Wilson built on it. And the top youngins are almost universally now in that mold.

---

ETA: PFF's Top-Ten 2021 Draft QB Prospects - Fields, Wilson & Newman all looking intriguing. Also, thought of one potential 2021 free agent who *might* fit the Tannehill/Gannon model for Gruden, IF they decide to move on from Carr - Mitch Trubisky (try not to throw up in your mouth).
We are losing because of our D..... let's use our 1st on a QB. 

Sorry, not following the logic there. 

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
This year went from looking like we finally turned the corner to crashing horribly. I understand the frustration. I feel the heartache. 

But other than Bowden, whom we jettisoned quickly after spending a 3rd on him, I am not ready to judge the class. It is pretty much a rule of thumb you need 3 years to judge a draft pick. Of course we all know this was an odd year with COVID and on top of that all but Simpson and Robertson had significant time missed with injury. 

Ruggs:

Sep 24, 2020 NFLThigh Hamstring Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1 Ruggs missed two games due to a hamstring injury

Sep 24, 2020 NFLKnee Strain Grade 1 Ruggs missed two games due to a knee injury

Sep 13, 2020 NFLKnee Strain Grade 1 Ruggs sustained an apparent leg injury in the first half of their game against the Carolina Panthers. He was active for the next game

Arnette:

Dec 6, 2020 NFLHead Cranial Concussion Grade 1 Arnette aggravated his concussion in Week 13 against the Jets. He missed the next two games.

Nov 29, 2020 NFLHead Cranial Concussion Grade 1 Arnette suffered a concussion during the first quarter of Week 12's game against the Falcons. He was cleared for the next game

Sep 27, 2020 NFLHand Thumb Fracture Arnette suffered a thumb injury during the Week 3 game against the Patriots. He underwent thumb surgery and missed 5 as he was placed on IR

Sep 2, 2020 NFLHand Thumb Fracture Arnette suffered a fracture in his thumb late in training camp. He recovered for a season opener

Edwards: 

Sep 27, 2020 NFLPedal Ankle Sprain Grade 2 Edwards suffered an ankle injury in Week 3's loss to the Patriots. He missed 4 games

Muse: 

On IR and never saw the field. 

Sure, we can always point to rookies who come out of the gate right away but not everyone develops in the NFL at the same speed. Are these players better than they are this year? I believe so. How much better... I don't know. I saw flashes from Ruggs and Arnette that have me believe they can grow into the what we selected them for. For Edwards, we haven't seen much at all on the field after glowing reviews in camp. Muse obviously is a complete unknown. Simpson definitely showed promise. Robertson has been MIA completely so who knows with him. It is worrisome with the issues we have had in the secondary in being healthy that he never really got much playing time. 

 

Bruno2

Footballguy
This year went from looking like we finally turned the corner to crashing horribly. I understand the frustration. I feel the heartache. 

But other than Bowden, whom we jettisoned quickly after spending a 3rd on him, I am not ready to judge the class. It is pretty much a rule of thumb you need 3 years to judge a draft pick. Of course we all know this was an odd year with COVID and on top of that all but Simpson and Robertson had significant time missed with injury. 

Ruggs:

Sep 24, 2020 NFLThigh Hamstring Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1 Ruggs missed two games due to a hamstring injury

Sep 24, 2020 NFLKnee Strain Grade 1 Ruggs missed two games due to a knee injury

Sep 13, 2020 NFLKnee Strain Grade 1 Ruggs sustained an apparent leg injury in the first half of their game against the Carolina Panthers. He was active for the next game

Arnette:

Dec 6, 2020 NFLHead Cranial Concussion Grade 1 Arnette aggravated his concussion in Week 13 against the Jets. He missed the next two games.

Nov 29, 2020 NFLHead Cranial Concussion Grade 1 Arnette suffered a concussion during the first quarter of Week 12's game against the Falcons. He was cleared for the next game

Sep 27, 2020 NFLHand Thumb Fracture Arnette suffered a thumb injury during the Week 3 game against the Patriots. He underwent thumb surgery and missed 5 as he was placed on IR

Sep 2, 2020 NFLHand Thumb Fracture Arnette suffered a fracture in his thumb late in training camp. He recovered for a season opener

Edwards: 

Sep 27, 2020 NFLPedal Ankle Sprain Grade 2 Edwards suffered an ankle injury in Week 3's loss to the Patriots. He missed 4 games

Muse: 

On IR and never saw the field. 

Sure, we can always point to rookies who come out of the gate right away but not everyone develops in the NFL at the same speed. Are these players better than they are this year? I believe so. How much better... I don't know. I saw flashes from Ruggs and Arnette that have me believe they can grow into the what we selected them for. For Edwards, we haven't seen much at all on the field after glowing reviews in camp. Muse obviously is a complete unknown. Simpson definitely showed promise. Robertson has been MIA completely so who knows with him. It is worrisome with the issues we have had in the secondary in being healthy that he never really got much playing time. 
I'm with you. We can't start blasting Mayock for his draft picks yet. Although Ferrell seems to be turning out to be a good, solid pro who will probably play for 10+ years, but #4 overall good? I'm not so sure. 

The secondary is in its infancy. I actually like the promise of Mullen, Arnette and Isiah Johnson at corner(who is essentially playing his rookie season, injured in his 1st preseason game last year.) But not so high on Abram. He's got the right attitude but he plays reckless in an era where his style of play is just a penalty flag away. Again, another player essentially playing a rookie season due to injury last season. You would think in this day and age you'd be looking for a ball hawk safety, not the hard hitter type Abram tries to emulate. He seems to whiff quite a bit and from my eye test, he seems to get out of position way too often, again being a "rookie " that's to be expected.  

So the back end of the defense is basically a bunch of rookies learning on the job, and taking their lumps. I get it...The frustration lies in the fact that there is absolutely no quality depth at all. Whenever I hear "next man up" when it comes to the Raiders, nothing good ever comes of it and only bad things happen. Guys like Leavitt, Lawson and Harris should not be on any NFL roster. 

So we have this defense with all these rookies in the secondary and no pass rush to speak of, what do we think is going to happen? Things like the Miami game happen. 

The D needs better coaching and more focus, and that starts with Gruden and Davis getting the right DC and teach these young guys. Look how quickly Miami and Indy turned it around on defense. It can be done. And they need, NEED a serious pass rusher opposite Crosby. 

Leave the offense alone....

 

DocHolliday

Footballguy
How many years are some of you going to make excuses for Gruden and the horrible draft picks?   I agree that it is too early to truly grade the class of 2020 but I don’t see the potential that we were sold.   Would any of you want Ferrell, Abram, Ruggs, or Arnette drafted in the first round knowing what you know now?   How about Edwards in the third?   

We have years of proof that Gruden cannot draft or build a team.   He will prove that again in a few months.  Raider fans have to focus on next year and the draft since we missed the playoffs.   Again.   

 

Bruno2

Footballguy
I'm willing to give them a little time for the draft picks to develop. Only two players that Mayock has drafted, Bowden and Quinten Bell are no longer on the team. Everyone else except Muse is currently playing and contributing. That's 13 guys on the 53 man roster with less than 2 years experience. Then if you add in Miller, Parker, Key and Hurst that's 17 draft picks. All they have to show for it so far is one All-Pro in Jacobs and a solid starting LT in Miller and a trusted 3rd down WR in Renfrow.

Is there an obvious elite draft pick in there out of all those 1's Gruden got for Mack and Cooper?  Nope.... Would we be happy landing one of the Bosa brothers, Myles Garrett or Chase Young? Of course...But due to Gruden/Mayock's lack of experience, I think they could have manipulated or maneuvered in the drafts better and maybe landed one of those young elite pass rushers to replace Mack, instead of reaching on Ferrell for example. That, IMO is worthy of some criticism. 

 

SDJohnny

Footballguy
How many years are some of you going to make excuses for Gruden and the horrible draft picks?   
Probably one more year. I'm not going to judge Abrams or Arnette until we get a new DC. If God willing we get Morris maybe he can get Abrams under control. Also when I was watching the last game it seemed that Littleton was a lot more active and effective. 

Gruden concerns me, his in game management is suspect and his decision to stick with Guenther so long is also a huge red flag. Since he's not going anywhere he needs to do a deep analysis of his staff because none of the Defensive assistants show the ability to teach up players. WR coach is suspect as well. 

 

LawFitz

Footballguy
We are losing because of our D..... let's use our 1st on a QB. 

Sorry, not following the logic there. 
IF they decide to move on from Carr, those are the top PFF QBs in this class. I'm in favor of going all D and OL in this next draft, except if an uber-prospect QB falls into their lap.

Clear now?

 

Bruno2

Footballguy
IF they decide to move on from Carr, those are the top PFF QBs in this class. I'm in favor of going all D and OL in this next draft, except if an uber-prospect QB falls into their lap.

Clear now?
I understand what you're saying. But I think they're pretty comfortable with their QB room. Now that Mariota has shown signs of life.

I bet they go one more year with Carr/Mariota/Peterman, unpopular as that sounds.

 

DA RAIDERS

willy t flyers
This year went from looking like we finally turned the corner to crashing horribly. I understand the frustration. I feel the heartache. 

But other than Bowden, whom we jettisoned quickly after spending a 3rd on him, I am not ready to judge the class. It is pretty much a rule of thumb you need 3 years to judge a draft pick. Of course we all know this was an odd year with COVID and on top of that all but Simpson and Robertson had significant time missed with injury. 

Ruggs:

Sep 24, 2020 NFLThigh Hamstring Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1 Ruggs missed two games due to a hamstring injury

Sep 24, 2020 NFLKnee Strain Grade 1 Ruggs missed two games due to a knee injury

Sep 13, 2020 NFLKnee Strain Grade 1 Ruggs sustained an apparent leg injury in the first half of their game against the Carolina Panthers. He was active for the next game

Arnette:

Dec 6, 2020 NFLHead Cranial Concussion Grade 1 Arnette aggravated his concussion in Week 13 against the Jets. He missed the next two games.

Nov 29, 2020 NFLHead Cranial Concussion Grade 1 Arnette suffered a concussion during the first quarter of Week 12's game against the Falcons. He was cleared for the next game

Sep 27, 2020 NFLHand Thumb Fracture Arnette suffered a thumb injury during the Week 3 game against the Patriots. He underwent thumb surgery and missed 5 as he was placed on IR

Sep 2, 2020 NFLHand Thumb Fracture Arnette suffered a fracture in his thumb late in training camp. He recovered for a season opener

Edwards: 

Sep 27, 2020 NFLPedal Ankle Sprain Grade 2 Edwards suffered an ankle injury in Week 3's loss to the Patriots. He missed 4 games

Muse: 

On IR and never saw the field. 

Sure, we can always point to rookies who come out of the gate right away but not everyone develops in the NFL at the same speed. Are these players better than they are this year? I believe so. How much better... I don't know. I saw flashes from Ruggs and Arnette that have me believe they can grow into the what we selected them for. For Edwards, we haven't seen much at all on the field after glowing reviews in camp. Muse obviously is a complete unknown. Simpson definitely showed promise. Robertson has been MIA completely so who knows with him. It is worrisome with the issues we have had in the secondary in being healthy that he never really got much playing time. 
the raiders always seem to draft dudes that are injury prone/risks.  i have no idea if this happens to other teams as often as it does to the raiders.  but good god,  it just seems like it's 2-3 guys, every year!  throw in the 1 semi, to serious character risk draft pick(bowden), and that's nearly half the draft.

i mentioned it during the draft this year.  ruggs and robertson(injured in college) are tiny.  tiny dudes get hurt.  unless they are built like fire hydrants.  edwards had injury problems in college.  didn't Annette play with a broken hand for most of his senior year? 

i get it that bad luck, is just that.  but how about we take some boring dependable guys that haven't had any major injuries, before draft day.  this trend, and the hybrid/tweener picks. are one of the things that, makes me think gruden is always trying to be cute and "outsmart" everyone.  but that's who he is.  i give you nathan peterman.  SMDH

i always appreciate your input chad!  you're a great dude, and i wish i had your positivity, when it comes to the raiders!

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
IF they decide to move on from Carr, those are the top PFF QBs in this class. I'm in favor of going all D and OL in this next draft, except if an uber-prospect QB falls into their lap.

Clear now?
I don't see why Gruden would want to move on from Carr. If the offense does not improve at all (most likely it will as Ruggs and Edwards develop with no reason to expect drop off from any other key player on the offense) and an improved defense then we are a solid playoff contender. We wouldn't even need a top 15 defense to be that. 

You have the Carr haters that want it and the nimrods who look at a W-L record and say 'you stink' but the truth is our offense is a very good offense. We can move the  ball down the field and score. Is Carr on the level of a Rodgers? No. Can he run this offense extremely well and us be a top 5 offense with these players? Yes. 

We need a better defense. We need better coaching, someone who can be a playmaker and more depth. Player wise, I don't think we are that far off on defense. I really do think Will Compton's comments make so much sense and clarify the picture. A good DC will help these young players focus and know their roles and what they are suppose to do rather than running around lost so much as we saw. A difference maker in the middle of that line is my biggest want. I think that will elevate the play of both Clelin and Maxx. Hopefully we retain some of the guys we got this season on the cheap and at least one of them hits their potential (talking about Beasley, McKinley, and Irving) or are good enough to be rotational players. I think the key is going to be that DC hire. 

 

joey

Footballguy
I understand what you're saying. But I think they're pretty comfortable with their QB room. Now that Mariota has shown signs of life.

I bet they go one more year with Carr/Mariota/Peterman, unpopular as that sounds.
I’m all for just standing pat on offense, honestly. Including the WR and TE corps, as well as the QBs. A small OL tweak for depth would be fine (as we found out how valuable our OL depth was this year)  but, besides that....D, D and more D!

 

DocHolliday

Footballguy
the raiders always seem to draft dudes that are injury prone/risks.  i have no idea if this happens to other teams as often as it does to the raiders.  but good god,  it just seems like it's 2-3 guys, every year!  throw in the 1 semi, to serious character risk draft pick(bowden), and that's nearly half the draft.

i mentioned it during the draft this year.  ruggs and robertson(injured in college) are tiny.  tiny dudes get hurt.  unless they are built like fire hydrants.  edwards had injury problems in college.  didn't Annette play with a broken hand for most of his senior year? 

i get it that bad luck, is just that.  but how about we take some boring dependable guys that haven't had any major injuries, before draft day.  this trend, and the hybrid/tweener picks. are one of the things that, makes me think gruden is always trying to be cute and "outsmart" everyone.  but that's who he is.  i give you nathan peterman.  SMDH

i always appreciate your input chad!  you're a great dude, and i wish i had your positivity, when it comes to the raiders!
I don’t agree with Chad much these days but he is a great guy.   I love the positivity!  I don’t mean to come off as a jerk to any of my fellow Raider fans   Please don’t take anything I say personally.   

Ruggs is tiny and will never be a WR 1 for that reason.   The injuries will continue to be a concern but my reasoning for him never being a true WR1 is that he can’t win contested catches most times.   He is so small that he just gets bumped out of position by CBs that are just average sized.   Does Ruggs even weigh 180 pounds?   He looks really thin.  

 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
I'm willing to give them a little time for the draft picks to develop. Only two players that Mayock has drafted, Bowden and Quinten Bell are no longer on the team. Everyone else except Muse is currently playing and contributing. That's 13 guys on the 53 man roster with less than 2 years experience. Then if you add in Miller, Parker, Key and Hurst that's 17 draft picks. All they have to show for it so far is one All-Pro in Jacobs and a solid starting LT in Miller and a trusted 3rd down WR in Renfrow.

Is there an obvious elite draft pick in there out of all those 1's Gruden got for Mack and Cooper?  Nope.... Would we be happy landing one of the Bosa brothers, Myles Garrett or Chase Young? Of course...But due to Gruden/Mayock's lack of experience, I think they could have manipulated or maneuvered in the drafts better and maybe landed one of those young elite pass rushers to replace Mack, instead of reaching on Ferrell for example. That, IMO is worthy of some criticism. 
I really am reluctant to go into the managing the draft or trading in the draft thing. Every year you hear "why don't you just trade up" or "why don't you just trade down". Well, the thing is you have to have a willing partner to do that and one that is willing to take an offer that doesn't deprive you of 1st round picks for the next decade. 

For example, Chase Young. Everyone knew Burrow was going #1 and everyone expected Washington to go Young #2. What would it have taken to get to #2? Our #12 and #19 and next year's 1st round and more. It would have taken so much to get up there that everyone would be beating the crap out of Mayock and Gruden for giving up so much to get him.

There is so much we don't know or hear about that happens or doesn't happen that it is something I just don't like being critical of. You may want to dance with one pretty girl at the HS dance but if she says no and you danced with the average girl instead you can't sit there an dwell on the pretty girl saying no thinking you should have forced her to...  I would think that is how serial rapists are made. 

 

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