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A-List Celebrity To Be Outed As A Sexual Predator (2 Viewers)

WheelsUp said:
Yeah, dont have any care about Matt Lauer making that comment and any one who does is fake. Every single man here has said flirtatious comments to a woman.
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Ok, now I know you're just trolling.  Well played - I guess?

 
Trollin? Again, I disagree and dont have the same moral code you have with how women refer to sexual assault, and its trolling? Clearly you denying such things is a joke. You never said an inappropriate flirtatious remark to a woman? Its ok, dont say no...no one will believe you.

I made no qualms about me defending men until I have proof and I will continue to do so. I wont feel shame for defending men until proof of rape or unwanted sexual assault is proven. I will never just trust a random woman without proof, sorry if you think that is trolling. I can call those willfully believing women without proof trolling.

 
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WheelsUp said:
Yeah, dont have any care about Matt Lauer making that comment and any one who does is fake. Every single man here has said flirtatious comments to a woman.
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No ... this is not taking place at the bar down the street after hours. This is a startling lack of professionalism.

Sullie's post above is well-crafted and on point. The boundaries you respect (or don't) in a professional environment, in front of witnesses, says something about what you're like when no one is watching.

 
No its doesnt say anything, it just says a guy is flirting. You are putting your rhetorical spin on it.

If she made a remark saying dont talk to me like that, its different, did you hear such a remark in the video? I can assume she is ok with such remarks, how do you know she wasnt? I'm guessing this was inappropriate to the bosses now, but wasnt at the time.

 
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WheelsUp said:
No its doesnt say anything, it just says a guy is flirting. You are putting your rhetorical spin on it.

If she made a remark saying dont talk to me like that, its different, did you hear such a remark in the video? I can assume she is ok with such remarks, how do you know she wasnt? I'm guessing this was inappropriate to the bosses now, but wasnt at the time.
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You really need to quit while you're behind.

 
WheelsUp said:
A good dumb rant, it was a one sentence comment looking for info. I hate when actual facts gets in away of attempted spin with a person you disagree with.

Also, not caring? Yeah, I have stated I will not shed a tear for a consenting woman who now wants to cry assault and or rape. Thats vindictiveness and if you want to believe the assault without proof, I will believe it wasnt assault until I get proof. The morals of those who have them should understand that.

Also she passed out and had to go to the nurse...really? We are believing that? lol But didnt go to cops or bosses? She was so scared, but not scared enough to see a nurse? I'm sure the nurse asked questions, wanted a rape kit. No?
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I'm guess this is responding to my post above? you really need to learn to use the quote function.

so despite so many women now publicly coming forward with comments about men in power abusing that power, unless they have it on video- you're discounting ALL of them? 

 
shuke said:
Not really.  Most of these guys are admitting and/or apologizing for their discretion, or at least not denying them.  
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Sort of. Franken's was a non-apology apology. But apparently there's some pretty damning proof with Lauer.

Like I said later in the conversation here, I'm not following the whole thing super closely.

I'm just hoping that people aren't caught up in another Rolling Stone or Duke Lacrosse type situation. 

 
WheelsUp said:
Trollin? Again, I disagree and dont have the same moral code you have with how women refer to sexual assault, and its trolling? Clearly you denying such things is a joke. You never said an inappropriate flirtatious remark to a woman? Its ok, dont say no...no one will believe you.

I made no qualms about me defending men until I have proof and I will continue to do so. I wont feel shame for defending men until proof of rape or unwanted sexual assault is proven. I will never just trust a random woman without proof, sorry if you think that is trolling. I can call those willfully believing women without proof trolling.
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what was your take on all the catholic school kids getting molested? no proof there either for the most part and happened many years earlier... did you feel bad and raise hell in support of the priests like you're doing now?

 
WheelsUp said:
No its doesnt say anything, it just says a guy is flirting. You are putting your rhetorical spin on it.

If she made a remark saying dont talk to me like that, its different, did you hear such a remark in the video? I can assume she is ok with such remarks, how do you know she wasnt? I'm guessing this was inappropriate to the bosses now, but wasnt at the time.
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I don't care whether not Vieira was OK with Lauer's remark. I'm not talking about sanctioning Lauer, in a vacuum, for the comments shown in the video. I'm talking about getting into his headspace.

 
eoMMan said:
Quote function isn't working well but if that wasn't consensual, how do you NOT immediately tell your supervisor, other higher ups, law enforcement, Matt's wife, etc etc.? It doesn't make sense. I don't buy the whole "Matt is powerful and ran the Today show and I want to keep my job" BS.
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I'll grant this for sexual assault post-Weinstein. Pre-Weinstein was a different world. We are living through the watershed moment for this sort of thing IMHO.

 
Comparing pedophilia to consensual adult relationships and flirtatious talk are we? There was evidence, many past priests had admission of such heinous acts.

Dont equate pedophilia to a consensual work relationship and flirtatious talk.

Lets not forget we are in a society where women are offended if you tell them to smile.

 
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WheelsUp said:
Comparing pedophilia to consensual adult relationships and flirtatious talk are we? There was evidence, many past priests had admission of such heinous acts.

Dont equate pedophilia to a consensual work relationship and flirtatious talk.

Lets not forget we are in a society where women are offended if you tell them to smile.
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No.

 
WheelsUp said:
Comparing pedophilia to consensual adult relationships and flirtatious talk are we? There was evidence, many past priests had admission of such heinous acts.

Dont equate pedophilia to a consensual work relationship and flirtatious talk.

Lets not forget we are in a society where women are offended if you tell them to smile.
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you really can't figure out how to use the quote button? is it intentional, or can you not understand how to do it? if the latter- we can help explain it. if  the former, ugh. stupid. 

what evidence are you talking about with the priests? it took a mountain of kids, now grown up, to finally feel safe by having numbers to come forward. I don't remember hearing about videos or written confession for all of these. it took power in numbers to change the landscape. look- the comparison is this: people in a position of power taking advantage over those who aren't. the kids routinely didn't offer dissent- because they were put into a position by somebody with power over them. the leitmotif for all of these women (including the endless string #metoo women on FB and other social media) was similar-  a person in a position of power exerting that power over them. their lack of dissent doesn't explicitly have to mean consent. 

of course grown-ups are different than kids. 

 
Andy Dufresne said:
Oof. 

What's a DM?
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Like a PM for Twitter.  "Direct Message".  Apparently Boone was fed up with all these poor men being raked over the coals for flirtatious behavior and thought it would be a good idea to DM (PM) a reporter for the Seattle PI unsolicited with his views.  Maybe Boone was just trolling like our 'pilot' here.

 
it's interesting that there's this backlash. 

I've never been treated this way, and if somebody tried to do any of that- sexual harassment or otherwise- I'd take a vocal and clear stand on it. my knee-jerk reaction is to wonder why everybody else doesn't do this as well- why are they just taking it?

but then... I see the huge numbers of people coming forward- women, people of color, people of differing sexual orientation... and I can either discount their collective voice that is speaking a language that differs from my own experience or I can try to bend my brain around their truth. I'm a white guy. maybe my experience IS different than theirs. maybe there's something to this privilege thing. maybe there's more to this planet than just my own experience. or not. and they're all liars, so screw all of them.

 
tom22406 said:
In 2001, the woman said, Mr. Lauer, who is married, asked her to his office to discuss a story during a workday. When she sat down, she said, he locked the door, which he could do by pressing a button while sitting at his desk. (People who worked at NBC said the button was a regular security measure installed for high-profile employees.)

The woman said Mr. Lauer asked her to unbutton her blouse, which she did. She said the anchor then stepped out from behind his desk, pulled down her pants, bent her over a chair and had intercourse with her. At some point, she said, she passed out with her pants pulled halfway down. She woke up on the floor of his office, and Mr. Lauer had his assistant take her to a nurse.

The woman told The Times that Mr. Lauer never made an advance toward her again and never mentioned what occurred in his office.
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this is devastating.  its rape.

 
El Floppo said:
it's interesting that there's this backlash. 

I've never been treated this way, and if somebody tried to do any of that- sexual harassment or otherwise- I'd take a vocal and clear stand on it. my knee-jerk reaction is to wonder why everybody else doesn't do this as well- why are they just taking it?

but then... I see the huge numbers of people coming forward- women, people of color, people of differing sexual orientation... and I can either discount their collective voice that is speaking a language that differs from my own experience or I can try to bend my brain around their truth. I'm a white guy. maybe my experience IS different than theirs. maybe there's something to this privilege thing. maybe there's more to this planet than just my own experience. or not. and they're all liars, so screw all of them.
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I don't think this is an experience or point of view problem. I think it is a power abuse problem.

Anytime one party has power, that party is tempted to use it to further their own ends. So we are seeing powerful men taking the fall right now because they could and did use their power to take advantage of and silence others. But the fallout gives more power to women (in terms of being able to accuse men of sexual harassment, and to be believed with little to no evidence), so people like Mr. Pilot are right to be concerned with women abusing that power (with false accusations a la Duke Lacrosse or Rollingstone). It doesn't need to be a privilege/black/white/gender thing, because that just changes the landscape of who has the power but never addresses the inherent abuse of power that anyone (men and women) can wield unjustly.

 
eoMMan said:
Quote function isn't working well but if that wasn't consensual, how do you NOT immediately tell your supervisor, other higher ups, law enforcement, Matt's wife, etc etc.? It doesn't make sense. I don't buy the whole "Matt is powerful and ran the Today show and I want to keep my job" BS.
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There are a lot of people who just aren't that eager to have other people know they've been raped, sexually assaulted, demeaned, or whatever. Something bad happens to someone, for many their first reaction isn't to tell others; it's to keep it to themselves and make sure nobody ever finds out. Also, there's probably a perception - probably even a correct perception - that reporting someone, especially an important someone, for such acts in an organization doesn't tend to lead towards the guilty person being punished and can actually damage the accusers reputation. A lot of times, there's little incentive to report the problem. That may be changing.

But, even if you don't connect with those ideas and can't fathom why a person wouldn't immediately report such an event, I'm sure you understand that people, in fact, don't report many of these events. You realize that's how many people are and the choices they make. Rather than looking at this and trying to determine how they "should" react, I think it's more helpful to sit back and just observe how people actually do react in reality, understand their hesitations, and think about how things can improve.

 
dgreen said:
There are a lot of people who just aren't that eager to have other people know they've been raped, sexually assaulted, demeaned, or whatever. Something bad happens to someone, for many their first reaction isn't to tell others; it's to keep it to themselves and make sure nobody ever finds out. Also, there's probably a perception - probably even a correct perception - that reporting someone, especially an important someone, for such acts in an organization doesn't tend to lead towards the guilty person being punished and can actually damage the accusers reputation. A lot of times, there's little incentive to report the problem. That may be changing.

But, even if you don't connect with those ideas and can't fathom why a person wouldn't immediately report such an event, I'm sure you understand that people, in fact, don't report many of these events. You realize that's how many people are and the choices they make. Rather than looking at this and trying to determine how they "should" react, I think it's more helpful to sit back and just observe how people actually do react in reality, understand their hesitations, and think about how things can improve.
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I think step one to improving things is speaking up. I understand that this lady could have been a victim (I say "could" because we're not sure it wasn't consensual) but if this happened in 2001, she could have prevented many more sexual assaults by speaking up about Lauer. And like I said, even if the NBC execs brushed her off, she had other avenues to go in addressing it.

But again, I think she didn't because it was most likely consensual. 

 
eoMMan said:
I think step one to improving things is speaking up. I understand that this lady could have been a victim (I say "could" because we're not sure it wasn't consensual) but if this happened in 2001, she could have prevented many more sexual assaults by speaking up about Lauer. And like I said, even if the NBC execs brushed her off, she had other avenues to go in addressing it.

But again, I think she didn't because it was most likely consensual. 
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I agree having victims speak up can greatly help. But, not sure that's step one. There's a reason (or multiple reasons) victims don't speak up enough. If that's addressed then maybe more will speak up.

 
Black Box said:
I don't think this is an experience or point of view problem. I think it is a power abuse problem.

Anytime one party has power, that party is tempted to use it to further their own ends. So we are seeing powerful men taking the fall right now because they could and did use their power to take advantage of and silence others. But the fallout gives more power to women (in terms of being able to accuse men of sexual harassment, and to be believed with little to no evidence), so people like Mr. Pilot are right to be concerned with women abusing that power (with false accusations a la Duke Lacrosse or Rollingstone). It doesn't need to be a privilege/black/white/gender thing, because that just changes the landscape of who has the power but never addresses the inherent abuse of power that anyone (men and women) can wield unjustly.
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I was referring to the backlash, and I do think it is a point of view issue.

I agree that false accusations are terrible... and when there's a sea change shift where the formerly weak feel empowered by numbers, the scum will rise too and do this to innocent people. pilot guy is explicit in saying he's not believing these accusations until there's visible proof- not in just denouncing the false ones. I agree about withholding judgement until the person is proved guilty- but I don't think that's what he's doing here. and I'll disagree with that stance until shown clearly why I shouldn't.

I do think it's fair to say that white men have enjoyed a position of privilege and power in a way that women, people of color, etc haven't. (I'll state the obvious- women, people of color, etc of course have held positions of power). I stated my own knee-jerk reaction... and I know I'm not alone with that as this backlash has shown. but I'm try to see beyond my own pov and experience- especially based on the overwhelming numbers involved here. and again, I'll state the obvious- I'm not talking specifically about matt lauer, but just the overall movement outing power-abusive sexual behavior. 

 
tommyboy said:
tom22406 said:
In 2001, the woman said, Mr. Lauer, who is married, asked her to his office to discuss a story during a workday. When she sat down, she said, he locked the door, which he could do by pressing a button while sitting at his desk. (People who worked at NBC said the button was a regular security measure installed for high-profile employees.)

The woman said Mr. Lauer asked her to unbutton her blouse, which she did. She said the anchor then stepped out from behind his desk, pulled down her pants, bent her over a chair and had intercourse with her. At some point, she said, she passed out with her pants pulled halfway down. She woke up on the floor of his office, and Mr. Lauer had his assistant take her to a nurse.

The woman told The Times that Mr. Lauer never made an advance toward her again and never mentioned what occurred in his office.
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this is devastating.  its rape.
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:shrug:

you can also read it as lauer asking her to do something, which she did. (the passing out part is bizarre)

but this goes back to the issue of abuse of power and whether non-dissent = consent. easy to say it does from my perspective as a guy. harder to wrap my brain around why it doesn't from the perspective of all these women feeling emboldened to finally come forward now that they have critical mass... but I'm trying.

 
Sabertooth said:
If he did that, he should pay.  Can't be a pig.  But as others have said, there is going to be an avalanche of this stuff now.  That's what happens when you abandon all morals and elect a pig to President.  
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The last 6 words are unnecessary. Besides, calling these men pigs is an affront to bacon.

 
Tom Servo said:
The last 6 words are unnecessary. Besides, calling these men pigs is an affront to bacon.
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No but I think it's a symptom.  Morals are gone.  They are just gone.   Racism is back en vogue, as is misogyny.  What did the MAGA folks think would happen?  Did they envision their women going back to the kitchen and making them a sandwich?  

It's all intertwined.  To act like it isn't is just willful ignorance.  

 
Sabertooth said:
No but I think it's a symptom.  Morals are gone.  They are just gone.   Racism is back en vogue, as is misogyny.  What did the MAGA folks think would happen?  Did they envision their women going back to the kitchen and making them a sandwich?  

It's all intertwined.  To act like it isn't is just willful ignorance.  
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Uhhhhh...what?

What do Lauer, Franken, and Keillor have to do with MAGA?

 
El Floppo said:
:shrug:

you can also read it as lauer asking her to do something, which she did. (the passing out part is bizarre)

but this goes back to the issue of abuse of power and whether non-dissent = consent. easy to say it does from my perspective as a guy. harder to wrap my brain around why it doesn't from the perspective of all these women feeling emboldened to finally come forward now that they have critical mass... but I'm trying.
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I don't see how non-dissent = consent. Flip it around so that non-consent = dissent. "No means no" probably isn't enough. Requiring full consent should be the default assumption entering a relationship and the line can move some as you get to know someone better. But, in no way should a first sexual encounter with someone be based on non-dissent.

 
Sabertooth said:
No but I think it's a symptom.  Morals are gone.  They are just gone.   Racism is back en vogue, as is misogyny.  What did the MAGA folks think would happen?  Did they envision their women going back to the kitchen and making them a sandwich?  

It's all intertwined.  To act like it isn't is just willful ignorance.  
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But these things happened when Obama was POTUS

 
Sabertooth said:
If he did that, he should pay.  Can't be a pig.  But as others have said, there is going to be an avalanche of this stuff now.  That's what happens when you abandon all morals and elect a pig to President.  
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JFC....The latest Franken allegations go back to 2003. Lauer was 10-11 years ago. WTF does the sitting president have anything to do with it. Its not like he said "I'm president now so its OK to start raping everyone!!" 

Its about people abusing their power and position. plain and simple. The only reason all of this is going to light now is that one victim had the courage to speak out. Now the snow ball of 'MeToo' is rolling and people are no longer afraid for their jobs and livelihood if they speak up as well. You mean to tell me that these victims kept their mouth shut through his entire administration because had so much respect for Pres Obama? 

 
dgreen said:
El Floppo said:
:shrug:

you can also read it as lauer asking her to do something, which she did. (the passing out part is bizarre)

but this goes back to the issue of abuse of power and whether non-dissent = consent. easy to say it does from my perspective as a guy. harder to wrap my brain around why it doesn't from the perspective of all these women feeling emboldened to finally come forward now that they have critical mass... but I'm trying.
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I don't see how non-dissent = consent. Flip it around so that non-consent = dissent. "No means no" probably isn't enough. Requiring full consent should be the default assumption entering a relationship and the line can move some as you get to know someone better. But, in no way should a first sexual encounter with someone be based on non-dissent.
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can't disagree with that. 

but you don't see how many men would think that asking a woman to take off their shirt would then think that when she did, it implied it was all good to move on to the next steps up until she says to stop? 

I'm married, so my memory of this kind of "sex" stuff is fuzzy. 

 
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