Agree or Disagree: "The United States is still the greatest country in the history of human civilization"? (1 Viewer)

[Joe Bryant]

A poster in another thread said the United States was "Still the greatest country in the history of human civilization."

I wondered how many people agreed with him. So I thought I'd ask.

 

[(HULK)]

Are we taking cumulative or exclusively the present? Cause I have different answers depending.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Are we taking cumulative or exclusively the present? Cause I have different answers depending.

When he said "is still" I think that means present day and also cumulatively. 

 

[timschochet]

Are we taking cumulative or exclusively the present? Cause I have different answers depending.

Cumulative. “History of human civilization.” 

 

[timschochet]

In many ways we are unique. With the sole exceptions of native Americans and most African-Americans (both of whom were treated very badly in our history), our ancestors came here from elsewhere seeking a new and better life. That’s very rare in itself- in modern times, only the State of Israel has that distinction and in that case it’s limited to Jews. By contrast we have accepting of every race and creed. To be an American is an ideal- it is different from being French or Norwegian or Nigerian. There is no race or creed required. 

 

[moleculo]

Of course we are.  We have had some speed bumps but push come to shove, we are still #1.

It"s worth remembering that we are more alike than different, and red vs blue, we are all on the same team.

 

[sho nuff]

Incan make a case that Jeff Daniels speech from beginning  The Newsroom still applies well.

Text Version

Video version with some nsfw language

We are still great and cumulatively probably the greatest…but how do we measure that?  And we damn sure can be better.

 

[timschochet]

Incan make a case that Jeff Daniels speech from beginning  The Newsroom still applies well.

Text Version

Video version with some nsfw language

We are still great and cumulatively probably the greatest…but how do we measure that?  And we damn sure can be better.

The ironic part of that speech is that the show refutes it: Sorkin, in the 3 seasons of The Newsroom, makes a splendid argument as to why we are the greatest country. Just as he does in The West Wing, The American President, A Few Good Men, and his play version of To Kill A Mockingbird. Aaron Sorkin is one of our best exponents of American exceptionalism. 

 

[SoBeDad]

Among big countries, Canada and Australia have a greater net migration. And many would argue a better healthcare and education system.  Many other countries have a higher happiness index and social mobility index. Of course I'd rather live here than anywhere else, but that is partly due to my family and friends living here.

We have a great combination of big cities and national and state parks to explore. A big plus for those who like to travel. Our form of government is another plus.  We're only 250 years old with a chance to get better, I'm optimistic. It's the 4th of July..., but do serious historians really rate us #1 above ancient Rome and others?

 

[sho nuff]

The ironic part of that speech is that the show refutes it: Sorkin, in the 3 seasons of The Newsroom, makes a splendid argument as to why we are the greatest country. Just as he does in The West Wing, The American President, A Few Good Men, and his play version of To Kill A Mockingbird. Aaron Sorkin is one of our best exponents of American exceptionalism. 

Saw his To Kill a Mockingbird on Broadway with Daniels still in it...it was very very good.  And yes, I am a huge fan of Sorkin's work.

 

[FairWarning]

In many ways we are unique. With the sole exceptions of native Americans and most African-Americans (both of whom were treated very badly in our history), our ancestors came here from elsewhere seeking a new and better life. That’s very rare in itself- in modern times, only the State of Israel has that distinction and in that case it’s limited to Jews. By contrast we have accepting of every race and creed. To be an American is an ideal- it is different from being French or Norwegian or Nigerian. There is no race or creed required. 

Other countries that are on our level have had the same issues with slavery and native peoples.

 

[SoBeDad]

Unfortunately, this is uniquely ours among first world countries, we have a ways to go:

Illinois 4th of July parade erupts into chaos after shooting kills 6, injures 24 others

 

[knowledge dropper]

Incan make a case that Jeff Daniels speech from beginning  The Newsroom still applies well.

Text Version

Video version with some nsfw language

We are still great and cumulatively probably the greatest…but how do we measure that?  And we damn sure can be better.

Dare we say Make America Greater Again?

 

[timschochet]

Other countries that are on our level have had the same issues with slavery and native peoples.

There are no other countries on our level. 

Precisly because we are the greatest nation ever, our faults are also greater and worth analyzing far more than other nations. When we do something wrong, it is worse than when other nations do it wrong, because more is expected of us. And self-criticism is one of the foundations of our greatness. 

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Americans are people and thus are prone to errors in judgement and behavior just like any other. The Founders weren't perfect. Westward expansion is an historical embarrassment as of course is slavery.

But the Ideal is what is unique and great. The Ideal says you won't be judged by who your ancestors were. There may be temporary, but are no permanent aristocracies. You're judged by what you do and who you are.

And we have a highly advanced system for change and improvement that neither results in revolution nor in trampling the rights of the minority - which is truly, truly amazing for a country this size and this diverse.

So yeah, we're an amazingly good country.

 

[timschochet]

Among big countries, Canada and Australia have a greater net migration. 

This is mostly because we are not as welcoming to immigrants as we used to be. Hopefully that will change. 

 

[timschochet]

Americans are people and thus are prone to errors in judgement and behavior just like any other. The Founders weren't perfect. Westward expansion is an historical embarrassment as of course is slavery.

But the Ideal is what is unique and great. The Ideal says you won't be judged by who your ancestors were. There may be temporary, but are no permanent aristocracies. You're judged by what you do and who you are.

And we have a highly advanced system for change and improvement that neither results in revolution nor in trampling the rights of the minority - which is truly, truly amazing for a country this size and this diverse.

So yeah, we're an amazingly good country.

Very good post. 

 

[whoknew]

I've always found it very strange that we have to constantly tell ourselves how great we are.

 

[timschochet]

Dare we say Make America Greater Again?

This is a political forum so I feel free to write this: 

The Trumpian concept of “Make America Great Again” is actually 180 degrees from almost all of the principles that have made us great. Donald Trump and his followers have promoted nationalism, nativism, isolationism, and authoritarianism- all of it frankly un-American IMO. If these ideas ever take hold of this country too strongly, then we will lose all that makes us exceptional. That’s why Wrote we are still the greatest…for now. It could change. 

 

[sho nuff]

Dare we say Make America Greater Again?

No...we dare not.

 

[Captain Cranks]

It may still be the best cumulatively but its best days are behind it. 

We're like Michael Jordan with the Washington Wizards.

 

[timschochet]

I've always found it very strange that we have to constantly tell ourselves how great we are.

We don’t. What we need to tell ourselves is WHY we have been great, so we don’t give it up. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

We don’t. What we need to tell ourselves is WHY we have been great, so we don’t give it up. 

I didn't see this as any "need" at all to say we're great. It was said and I thought it was interesting and I wondered how other folks felt. 

 

[ZADO]

“We're not Watusi. We're not Spartans. We're Americans, with a capital 'A', huh? You know what that means? Do ya? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts!”

 

 

[joffer]

Roman Republic gets the nod

 

[SoBeDad]

Michael Bechloss, politics aside, has some great 4th of July photos.

President Truman riding in his 1950 Lincoln Cosmopolitan

FDR at Monticello, today 1936, orating about the chief author of the Declaration of Independence

>>Shortly before taking the office of President he wrote to a friend, "I have sworn on the Altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." His life served that consecration. Constantly he labored to enlarge the freedom of the human mind and to destroy the bondage imposed on it by ignorance, poverty and political and religious intolerance.<<

 

[djmich]

I always find it strange when people get uptight when there's a discussion about if America is great.

Personally, I'm not sure on what basis you can even compare America to say ancient Rome.

 

[joffer]

I always find it strange when people get uptight when there's a discussion about if America is great.

Personally, I'm not sure on what basis you can even compare America to say ancient Rome.

by height

-Ty Webb

 

[Stoneworker]

It may still be the best cumulatively but its best days are behind it. 

We're like Michael Jordan with the Washington Wizards.

The defeatist pessimism expressed here is not uncommon, according to a Georgetown scholar. But in reality perhaps the single greatest strength of Americans is their perpetual optimism, which is still going strong according to a recent Yale study.

A repeated theme in American history, says Kazin, a historian at Georgetown University, "is Americans believing the country is in decline and then finding ways to rebound from both the fear of decline and the problems that gave rise to that fear."

A historic recession, increasingly bitter political strife, and even the start of a global pandemic did not diminish Americans’ hopes for a better future for themselves

America the Optimistic

From recession to pandemic, American optimism survives

 

[dkp993]

While I’d like more then anything to say yes, the leaders we continue to choose prove otherwise.

If they are who we are choosing to represent who we are as a country, our ideals, morals and values I’m not sure how I could possibly say yes   

I voted on the fence.  

 

[Desert_Power]

It may still be the best cumulatively but its best days are behind it. 

We're like Michael Jordan with the Washington Wizards.

More Lebron on the Lakers (yes, I realize he's just going into the same age MJ was on the Wizards). Still a really great player letting his ego and laziness get in his way. Addicted to short-term thinking.

Among big countries, Canada and Australia have a greater net migration. And many would argue a better healthcare and education system.  Many other countries have a higher happiness index and social mobility index. Of course I'd rather live here than anywhere else, but that is partly due to my family and friends living here.

We have a great combination of big cities and national and state parks to explore. A big plus for those who like to travel. Our form of government is another plus.  We're only 250 years old with a chance to get better, I'm optimistic. It's the 4th of July..., but do serious historians really rate us #1 above ancient Rome and others?

Like how you put this too. Still "Great" tier but it's crowded. Not S tier.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Among big countries, Canada and Australia have a greater net migration.

Thank you. Can you share a link and more detail on this?

 

[timschochet]

Roman Republic gets the nod

Seriously? They treated non-Romans like ####. Even before they were an empire. 

 

[dozer]

On the fence.

If we can overcome Trumpism, all the gerrymandering and voter suppression laws created by Republicans, and minority rule holding back the working class, then I think we can make it past this dark era in our history.

If not, hello Christofascism.

 

[jon_mx]

This is a political forum so I feel free to write this: 

The Trumpian concept of “Make America Great Again” is actually 180 degrees from almost all of the principles that have made us great. Donald Trump and his followers have promoted nationalism, nativism, isolationism, and authoritarianism- all of it frankly un-American IMO. If these ideas ever take hold of this country too strongly, then we will lose all that makes us exceptional. That’s why Wrote we are still the greatest…for now. It could change. 

What I find un-American are:

1.  Assaults on free speech. 

2. Assaults on Equally treatment under tha law....Justice being administered based on politics. 

3. Opportunities being allocated based on sex and race. 

4. Large powerful government and corporations which are not kept in check by individual rights. 

And I don't see threats to those as coming from Trump.  The idea that nationalism is evil is a concoction of leftists.  Nationalism is evil when used to obtain authoritarianism.  Having pride in our country is not evil, even promoting our interests is not evil.  Especially when taken in context of how much we help out and support countries around the world.  We should take pride in that.  Out of that list, Authoritarianism is the only one which is inherently evil by itself.   Authoritarianism is what we need to flight.  Trump is a narcissist, but he is not a tyrant.   Yes that makes him not a great candidate to lead our country.  What could destroy our country is losing free speech, losing equal protection and opportunity and not keeping government and corporations in check.  And those threats are coming from the elitist mostly on the left.  

 

[timschochet]

Seriously as regards Rome and other ancient civilizations: 

I can’t give serious consideration to any civilization or culture pre-Enlightenment. Too much savagery and disregard for human life. 

 

[Chaz McNulty]

The US is really close to the greatest Country in the history of human civilization.

By that, I mean geographically.  Just look to your North.

 

[Desert_Power]

Thank you. Can you share a link and more detail on this?

https://data.oecd.org/migration/foreign-born-population.htm

 

[timschochet]

What I find un-American are:

1.  Assaults on free speech. 

2. Equally treatment under tha law....Justice being administered based on politics. 

3. Opportunities being allocated based on sex and race. 

4. Large powerful government and corporations which are not kept in check by individual rights. 

And I don't see threats to those as coming from Trump.  The idea that nationalism is evil is a concoction of leftists.  Nationalism is evil when used to obtain authoritarianism.  Having pride in our country is not evil, even promoting our interests is not evil.  Especially when taken in context of how much we help out and support countries around the world.  We should take pride in that.  Out of that list, Authoritarianism is the only one which is inherently evil by itself.   Authoritarianism is what we need to flight.  Trump is a narcissist, but he is not a tyrant.   Yes that makes him not a great candidate to lead our country.  What could destroy our country is losing free speech, losing equal protection and opportunity and not keeping government and corporations in check.  And those threats are coming from the elitist mostly on the left.  

So much to break down here but I will try: 

1. Assaults on free speech are only dangerous when they come from the government, by force of law. Censorship, if that is even the correct term, is not dangerous if it comes from private companies no matter how large, or from college campuses, or from cultural pressures. None of these sources are mandatory; none of them can force one to do anything. Only the law can do that. 
2. Agreed about equal treatment under the law. I don’t see this as under threat. 
3. Affirmative action has been with us now for many decades. It may be a good idea, and it may not. It may be good in some instances and bad in others. But it is not and has never been an assault on liberty or a threat to American greatness. 
4. Agreed on government, not on corporations. All corporations are are private groups of people with a common business interest (something Mitt Romney tried to say but he flubbed it.) They have no power from the state.

There are threats to this country from the left. People like Bernie Sanders and AOC are promoting far too much government control of industry IMO, mainly for the noble cause of fighting climate change, but also to bring about what they call “social justice.” I regard these as in-American as well but not as bad as MAGA for the future of our greatness. However you didn’t touch on any of these threats. The so-called “threats” from the left that you claim to be concerned about are, IMO, phantoms. 

 

[dkp993]

Seriously as regards Rome and other ancient civilizations: 

I can’t give serious consideration to any civilization or culture pre-Enlightenment. Too much savagery and disregard for human life. 

Understandable, context is hard to factor in with this regard.   Now just imagine how a civilization 2 thousand years into the future will view us.  

 

[Leroy Hoard]

The US is really close to the greatest Country in the history of human civilization.

By that, I mean geographically.  Just look to your North.

If it helps any, I like Canadian beer.

 

[Spartans Rule]

"Greatest" can mean a million different things. We're certainly the best at enough things that you can come up with a good reason to say America is the greatest if that's really important to you.

It doesn't matter to me. I feel like I'd have to do a lot of research and traveling to have a truly informed opinion, and even then I'd still be using my own arbitrary criteria. Whether we're #1 or #24 doesn't matter as long I'm happy living here, which I am.

 

[timschochet]

Understandable, context is hard to factor in with this regard.   Now just imagine how a civilization 2 thousand years into the future will view us.  

Sure. But I am not making a judgment about future civilizations. 

I would also point out that America’s superiority can be proven by contrast. Look at two powerful modern contemporaries of the US: Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. We are clearly superior to those terrible nations. Can Rome say the same about its contemporaries? I don’t think so. 

 

[timschochet]

"Greatest" can mean a million different things. We're certainly the best at enough things that you can come up with a good reason to say America is the greatest if that's really important to you.

It doesn't matter to me. I feel like I'd have to do a lot of research and traveling to have a truly informed opinion, and even then I'd still be using my own arbitrary criteria. Whether we're #1 or #24 doesn't matter as long I'm happy living here, which I am.

I figured you were going to argue for Sparta. 

 

[dkp993]

"Greatest" can mean a million different things. We're certainly the best at enough things that you can come up with a good reason to say America is the greatest if that's really important to you.

It doesn't matter to me. I feel like I'd have to do a lot of research and traveling to have a truly informed opinion, and even then I'd still be using my own arbitrary criteria. Whether we're #1 or #24 doesn't matter as long I'm happy living here, which I am.

Very good thoughts.  As I sit here by my pool drinking a spicy Bloody Mary in perfect sunny  82 degree weather watching my daughter play it’s extremely hard to disagree with your last sentence.  

 

[quick-hands]

While I’d like more then anything to say yes, the leaders we continue to choose prove otherwise.

If they are who we are choosing to represent who we are as a country, our ideals, morals and values I’m not sure how I could possibly say yes   

I voted on the fence.  

Leaders are politics.    Our greatness isn't based on our messed up politics.    Most of our problems come from everything  being political.

 

[dkp993]

Leaders are politics.    Our greatness isn't based on our messed up politics.    Most of our problems come from everything  being political.

Understand, but there’s no way around the fact that we are choosing these people.  That’s a reflection on us as a country.  IMO there is no way to ignore that when discussing our greatness.  
 

 

[quick-hands]

I figured you were going to argue for Sparta. 

That's michigan state which is known to be the greatest >>>>michigan....heck the Spartans practically integrated southern college football.   Bear Bryant got sick of seeing all these black football  players going to state.

USC and UCLA bought to find out TUCK COMIN!!!

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Cumulatively, yeah of course.  If it wasn't for the United States, the world would probably be run by some combination of Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and Imperial Japan.  That would suck.  You could make a good argument that -- in the context of human civilization -- such an outcome would have been as bad or worse than the sack of Rome.

Right now?  Nope.  2022 America isn't as good as 1950 America, and it's not as good as classical Athens, to pick two examples.

 

[SoBeDad]

Thank you. Can you share a link and more detail on this?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate#United_Nations

Australia, Canada, and USA  at 8.6, 7.1, and 3.2 per 1000 per year from 2010-2015, and 6.6, 6.6, 2.9 from 2015-2020. Supposedly it includes all immigrants, lawful and unlawful, but i'm skeptical of the methodology. In any event, Canada and Australia welcome immigrants, for economic reasons, but they're likely more educated than our average immigrant. We have taken many poor immigrants historically. They're usually hard working and not complacent, whether in academia at UCLA or in San Joaquin valley or our homes taking care of our children and aging parents. Or helping Tim clean up a property in Orange County.