Agree or Disagree: "The United States is still the greatest country in the history of human civilization"? (1 Viewer)

[Northern Voice]

I have to admit that days like this, with the parade shooting (and apparently another one developing in Philadelphia) I start to wonder a little. But I know that most people are good. 

It would really depend upon your criteria. When it comes to negative rights (things that government can't transgress upon) the United States has unparalleled restraint on government. From speech (which our friends to the North do not have) to religion to other rights codified in the Bill of Rights, I can think of almost no other country that guarantees freedom from majoritarian governance than the United States. Of course, there are comparable charters in the West and in EU countries, but nothing really touches the breadth and scope of our rights. The only glaring example I can think of that contravenes this is EU privacy law, which seems vastly superior to ours. 

I look at recent times and what I see as America on the decline and I look at rock's response here - which is a very uniquely American lens to view freedom and greatness through and I think they're linked. 

Sure, I guess I don't have completely unlimited free speech, but as I've never felt the need to incite a riot or spread hate, I can honestly say I've never thought about once in my life outside these boards. Where has limitless free speech got USA? More divided, more shootings, more hate every day. Freedom, though. 

Freedom of religion? Sure, I guess but only if you're the dominant religion, otherwise you're forced to listen to the Lord's prayer or god bless America or whatever against your beliefs. I like the Canadian way of being free to practice whatever you choose, but religion is removed from public schools, sporting events and the like because there are many many religions and honestly what does God have to do with the Blue Jays game. This also means God has no say over women's bodies in Canada. Give me a secular society (with freedom to practise) any day. 

In terms of the broad protection from government overreach, again, a very American ideal, which leads directly to all the guns and gun violence. Every country has checks and balance but not many others still think they may need to form a militia because the government is coming to get them and therefore they must have six guns each. 

It's just very interesting the unique lens through which many Americans see the world. 

To me freedom is more about feeling safe walking down the street at a parade without there being guns on every corner. It's freedom to walk into a doctor's office or hospital with any ailment and walk out without any bill, let alone crippling debt. Things like that are how I define freedom, I guess maybe because I take all the other things for granted. 

 

[Atomic Punk]

I don’t really see it as “hate”. There just happen to be people who think that other countries may be as great. Does it really need to be all or nothing? America is the greatest, always has been and always will be! Or can American be a great country amongst other great countries?

 

[Capella]

and honestly what does God have to do with the Blue Jays game. This also means God has no say over women's bodies in Canada.

Truly sounds glorious to not have to deal with this up there. I mean it. 

 

[sho nuff]

Agreed.

On the bolded, we need to keep things in perspective.

The poll results show 2:1 agree/disagree with the OP.

As usual, the America haters are minority in number, yet disproportionately loud and vocal when it comes to the hate speech.

Just because someone may think we aren’t necessarily the greatest…doesn’t make them negative or America haters.

 

[Northern Voice]

Just because someone may think we aren’t necessarily the greatest…doesn’t make them negative or America haters.

I love America and my American friends and could easily live just about anywhere in the country, it just wouldn't be #1 on my list.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Gross debt doesn’t mean much though. The largest economy having the largest debt isn’t exactly shocking. 

Sure.  It would be nice to be #1 in something slightly positive at least, right? 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Overall things seems pretty good right now, not sure what you people want anymore. Yeah gas prices are through the roof and some child bearing persons can't get abortions as conveniently as before, but even so, things don't seem so bad 

I'd love to go to a 4th of July display without the possibility of getting sniped at and killed.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Just because someone may think we aren’t necessarily the greatest…doesn’t make them negative or America haters.

Exactly.  I love my kids, but can think they are being idiots and need to get their #### together.   Same applies here.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

I look at recent times and what I see as America on the decline and I look at rock's response here - which is a very uniquely American lens to view freedom and greatness through and I think they're linked. 

Sure, I guess I don't have completely unlimited free speech, but as I've never felt the need to incite a riot or spread hate, I can honestly say I've never thought about once in my life outside these boards. Where has limitless free speech got USA? More divided, more shootings, more hate every day. Freedom, though. 

Freedom of religion? Sure, I guess but only if you're the dominant religion, otherwise you're forced to listen to the Lord's prayer or god bless America or whatever against your beliefs. I like the Canadian way of being free to practice whatever you choose, but religion is removed from public schools, sporting events and the like because there are many many religions and honestly what does God have to do with the Blue Jays game. This also means God has no say over women's bodies in Canada. Give me a secular society (with freedom to practise) any day. 

In terms of the broad protection from government overreach, again, a very American ideal, which leads directly to all the guns and gun violence. Every country has checks and balance but not many others still think they may need to form a militia because the government is coming to get them and therefore they must have six guns each. 

It's just very interesting the unique lens through which many Americans see the world. 

To me freedom is more about feeling safe walking down the street at a parade without there being guns on every corner. It's freedom to walk into a doctor's office or hospital with any ailment and walk out without any bill, let alone crippling debt. Things like that are how I define freedom, I guess maybe because I take all the other things for granted. 

Great POV here, NV.   

 

[BobbyLayne]

One convenient omission, however...

The U.S. also has the largest and most technologically advanced military in the world.

Awesome.

Not so great at taking care of our boys (and girls) once they get home. But it's getting a lot better.

I get outstanding care at the VA medical center. Seriously, I went 30+ years using Gold and Platinum employer plans. Healthcare/wellness was always a hassle, I can't tell you how many times I've had to fight claims denied (and I had excellent plans), many things I really needed - bone on bone joint pain, no cartilage left, sorry that's elective surgery and 100% out of pocket if you want to do it - became economic choices.

Then three years ago I became eligible to utilize the VA for the first time. It was a terrible, outdated and poorly run system in the late 80s/early 90s. It's fantastic now. Like I have never experienced the level of care I get now. My doctors always take as much time as they can explaining my options thoroughly. Next level tests are ordered routinely. Sometimes it's a little longer to schedule referrals for specialists. On the whole, though, it is amazing.

That said, we really suck when it comes to denying eligibility for disability. Takes 3 to 5 years. We have been routinely denying burn pit claims for over a decade (only weeks did we finally see breakthrough legislation which might shift that.) Guys who have PTSD and physical disability as a direct result of combat have to jump through so many hoops. For years and years. It's a constant battle.

***************

But blowing #### up, we're real good at that. Our military trains like it fights. We do not half ### drills and exercises, absolutely best in class. We're great at killing other humans.

 

[rockaction]

I look at recent times and what I see as America on the decline and I look at rock's response here - which is a very uniquely American lens to view freedom and greatness through and I think they're linked. 

I gently disagree. I do not think it follows that our cultural decline is due to our freedoms from restraint, but rather that we've abandoned certain decorous and deep principles as a culture writ large. That has led to our country's predicaments with respect to divisiveness and violence. Nobody likes to hear this on this board, but once we became infatuated with the self as the supreme being and arbiter of things, then what had been a delicate public (and yes, God-fearing for the most part) morality lapsed into licentiousness and gratification of all things at all times, up to and including the manifestation of self in violent expression, using "expression" here for lack of a better term. 

But it is not our freedoms nor the exercise of those freedoms that led us there. These things are not inextricably linked, at least in my estimation. Democracy is only as virtuous as its citizens, and right now we're a fairly selfish lot. It's like the old "garbage in, garbage out" in computer programming syntax errors. Democracy sort of operates similarly. 

To me freedom is more about feeling safe walking down the street at a parade without there being guns on every corner. It's freedom to walk into a doctor's office or hospital with any ailment and walk out without any bill, let alone crippling debt. Things like that are how I define freedom, I guess maybe because I take all the other things for granted. 

That's fine. That's about safety and positive rights, two things America from its founding have put on the back-burner in exchange for dynamism, self-reliance, and limited government. There are trade-offs. Certainly you are free to walk into a medical building and have the tab paid for, but it is paid for by the labor of your collective citizenry, which is certainly binding and unfree when considering the compulsory time working that the individual producing that which others reap the benefits of must endeavor. 

All that said, our responses to each other really hinge on the definitional meaning of "freedom." You're talking about "freedom" in the true, uninhibited, unencumbered sense of the word. Almost as a collective self-actualization of the individual. I talk about freedom as a political construct, the freedom to be free from others with respect to governance, really, and no more than that. 

 

[BeTheMatch]

I would prefer not to live here, and I wouldn't if it wasn't so difficult to relocate to another country. My brother-in-law and his family moved to Canada a couple years ago, and all the stuff they had and still have to do is pretty, let's say, inconvenient. And they were only allowed to do it because of a business he moved there.

 

[GoBirds]

If you have $180, 10 weeks notice, and proper papers you can see if other countries will take you. 

Is that the process? It’s not the choice for me but I fully support those that are always negative to explore that route. It’s a great option to have for sure. 

 

[GoBirds]

I'd love to go to a 4th of July display without the possibility of getting sniped at and killed.  

Seriously? You are more likely to get struck by lightning. 

 

[GoBirds]

Interesting.  What are you basing that on?  It would seem that white males are doing comparatively worse than they were 20 years ago, while minorities (including LBGTQIA+) have made substantial strides.

Good question….my guess would be popular liberal talking points? 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Seriously? You are more likely to get struck by lightning. 

Not really - I wouldn't be at 4th of July festivities in a storm.   

But no #### the odds are low.  But the odds of it happening here versus other countries?  That's the point.   But your post just verifies what I posted in the other thread - it's just cost of living in the US now.  

 

[GoBirds]

Not really - I wouldn't be at 4th of July festivities in a storm.   

But no #### the odds are low.  But the odds of it happening here versus other countries?  That's the point.   But your post just verifies what I posted in the other thread - it's just cost of living in the US now.  

Your post verifies that you and others on the Left look for any negative angle you can find…no matter how unlikely. Good news, you have options. 

 

[FairWarning]

I think a good barometer is when people from other countries stop wanting to come here.

 

[HellToupee]

Someone should be handing out leaflets at the southern border letting folks trying to get in here know what a dump this place is and where all the sweet countries to live are. People risking everything for a better life and here this place sucks , I guess

 

[KarmaPolice]

Your post verifies that you and others on the Left look for any negative angle you can find…no matter how unlikely. Good news, you have options. 

When it comes to the topic of guns, gun deaths, and mass shootings?  Yeah, what I find is usually pretty negative and nothing that we should be proud of.    That doesn't represent my views of the country for other things.    But typical response from you and your crew to:  1. ignore any post that says the country is great from people you don't like and focus on any post that might be critical of the country (of course also passing over the critical posts from posters on the right)  and 2:  suggest the solution is to leave our country.  

ETA: man, how could I forget the other typical response- the GB cry emoji. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

I think a good barometer is when people from other countries stop wanting to come here.

How is the immigration from countries that people would typically list as on par with the US or have higher than us?  

 

[KarmaPolice]

How is the immigration from countries that people would typically list as on par with the US or have higher than us?  

NM, found the answers HERE.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Someone should be handing out leaflets at the southern border letting folks trying to get in here know what a dump this place is and where all the sweet countries to live are. People risking everything for a better life and here this place sucks , I guess

Not sure this is the standard to be judging our greatness.  

If the immigrations policies were exactly the same and our countries where side by side and both shared a border with Mexico, how many would choose US over Canada?      

 

[GoBirds]

When it comes to the topic of guns, gun deaths, and mass shootings?  Yeah, what I find is usually pretty negative and nothing that we should be proud of.    That doesn't represent my views of the country for other things.    But typical response from you and your crew to:  1. ignore any post that says the country is great from people you don't like and focus on any post that might be critical of the country (of course also passing over the critical posts from posters on the right)  and 2:  suggest the solution is to leave our country.  

If all of the sudden you are worried about shootings in Chicago you have options, it’s your choice if that’s the solution or not for your complaining. 

 

[FairWarning]

Not sure this is the standard to be judging our greatness.  

If the immigrations policies were exactly the same and our countries where side by side and both shared a border with Mexico, how many would choose US over Canada?      

It would depend on the reasons they are leaving.  The  ceiling is higher in the US if it is for financial reasons.

 

[KarmaPolice]

It would depend on the reasons they are leaving.  The  ceiling is higher in the US if it is for financial reasons.

I would be curious how many would choose a higher floor for that higher ceiling.  Small sample, sure- but I have yet to meet one that is looking to achieve Bezos wealth, just better than what they left.  Language barrier largely caps their expectations. 

But of course, there's 100s of variables why people would prefer a country over another.   I think a lot of our attitude comes from our isolation and general lack of traveling to different countries. I love living here, but realize I wouldn't miss a beat and would likely be just as happy in dozens of other countries.  I would also guess many who think no country could be better would also be perfectly happy in dozens of other countries. 

 

[lazyike]

Can’t believe anybody can read that post and think the US is the greatest country right now. I love this place but it’s a disaster right now and things are likely going to get worse. 

Interesting oped in the Atlantic by Sen Romney that makes a point which I think Republicans in particular are guilty of. 

"Congress is particularly disappointing: Our elected officials put a finger in the wind more frequently than they show backbone against it. Too often, Washington demonstrates the maxim that for evil to thrive only requires good men to do nothing"

 

[FairWarning]

I would be curious how many would choose a higher floor for that higher ceiling.  Small sample, sure- but I have yet to meet one that is looking to achieve Bezos wealth, just better than what they left.  Language barrier largely caps their expectations. 

But of course, there's 100s of variables why people would prefer a country over another.   I think a lot of our attitude comes from our isolation and general lack of traveling to different countries. I love living here, but realize I wouldn't miss a beat and would likely be just as happy in dozens of other countries.  I would also guess many who think no country could be better would also be perfectly happy in dozens of other countries. 

The Indians that come here and buy gas stations are here for the ceiling.  They don’t want the government taking care of them.  They want a path to a better life for their kids.  

 

[Stoneworker]

But blowing #### up, we're real good at that. Our military trains like it fights. We do not half ### drills and exercises, absolutely best in class. We're great at killing other humans.

Yep. Something tells me the Ukrainians are grateful those Stinger and Javelin missiles have the ability to blow stuff up.

You know. Helping our democratic brethren protect against invasion from despots and keep their country sovereign.

Not sure where that ability fits in the "quality of life" rankings, but quite likely high up on the "greatness" scale that many seem to conveniently overlook.

 

[timschochet]

Someone should be handing out leaflets at the southern border letting folks trying to get in here know what a dump this place is and where all the sweet countries to live are. People risking everything for a better life and here this place sucks , I guess

For once I agree with you 100%. Now I hope you’re willing to go one step further and realize that these folks at the border are a benefit, not a hardship, to the rest of us already here. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

The Indians that come here and buy gas stations are here for the ceiling.  They don’t want the government taking care of them.  They want a path to a better life for their kids.  

Ok.  Like I said, a ton of reasons.  

We've talked in various threads about the higher income and education needed on average to immigrate from across the ocean.  If they came here and were able to buy a gas station right away, that should give us a clue to the different starting point of that vs the average person pouring across the southern border.  I am sure Indians also choose many other countries as well, they don't only choose us.  

 

[SoBeDad]

I think a good barometer is when people from other countries stop wanting to come here.

Of course people from Haiti, Cuba, Mexico, and Central America want to come here. I hope it remains that way. A better barometer would be where degree-seeking students want to come. We've been getting hundreds of thousand such students and people like Einstein for a long time. But we should make it easier for such people to stay after they graduate. Australia, Canada, Germany, and even Brazil are rated by some as a better place for foreign students to study and stay.

https://ischoolconnect.com/blog/best-countries-for-immigration-for-students/

 

[FairWarning]

Ok.  Like I said, a ton of reasons.  

We've talked in various threads about the higher income and education needed on average to immigrate from across the ocean.  If they came here and were able to buy a gas station right away, that should give us a clue to the different starting point of that vs the average person pouring across the southern border.  I am sure Indians also choose many other countries as well, they don't only choose us.  

The ones they buy here are usually fixer-uppers on the cheap.  I doubt the Chinese that move to California and live in nice neighborhoods are not interested in a floor either.  And for the ones south of the border, anything is better than where they came from.

 

[Desert_Power]

For once I agree with you 100%. Now I hope you’re willing to go one step further and realize that these folks at the border are a benefit, not a hardship, to the rest of us already here. 

Yep. Our purposeful decline in immigration is another factor making us less great.

 

[FairWarning]

For once I agree with you 100%. Now I hope you’re willing to go one step further and realize that these folks at the border are a benefit, not a hardship, to the rest of us already here. 

Do you pay these people the going rate or as cheap as you can get away with?

 

[FairWarning]

Yep. Our purposeful decline in immigration is another factor making us less great.

As long as it’s legal, sure.

 

[SoBeDad]

We're still considered a safe place for the wealthy from other countries to invest their money, whether obtained by legal or illegal means. In the current Miami skyscraper boom, with over 20 buildings 500+ feet tall under construction, foreigners have bought or put deposits on about 50%. Primarily wealthy from Latin America and a few from Europe.

Foreign companies are also bullish as they build big plants in Ohio, South Carolina, and elsewhere.

 

[KarmaPolice]

The ones they buy here are usually fixer-uppers on the cheap.  I doubt the Chinese that move to California and live in nice neighborhoods are not interested in a floor either.  And for the ones south of the border, anything is better than where they came from.

Exactly - 100s of reasons.  This feels like one of those times it seems like we are agreeing, but choose to argue instead. 

 

[Desert_Power]

As long as it’s legal, sure.

Yes, legal immigration is much lower now than it was pre-Trump

 

[FairWarning]

Yes, legal immigration is much lower now than it was pre-Trump

Then there is no excuse not to raise it back up unless it’s a COVID issue.

 

[Stoneworker]

Yes, legal immigration is much lower now than it was pre-Trump

This is dead wrong.

The actual fact is that legal immigration 2016-2020 was just as high under Trump as under Obama (higher in some years).

Plus you have no clue what legal immigration is "now" because the most updated stats are from 2020.

Following are the "persons obtaining lawful permanent resident status," according to the Office of Immigration Statistics.

2020 - 707,362 (pandemic)

2019 - 1,031,765

2018 - 1,096,611

2017 - 1,127,167

2016 - 1,183,505

2015 - 1,051,031

2014 - 1,016,518

2013 - 990,553

2012 - 1,031,631

2011 - 1,062,040

https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2022-06/22_0308_plcy_yearbook_immigration_statistics_2020.pdf

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook

 

[Rich Conway]

The actual fact is that legal immigration 2016-2020 was just as high under Trump as under Obama (higher in some years).

Plus you have no clue what legal immigration is "now" because the most updated stats are from 2020.

Following are the "persons obtaining lawful permanent resident status," according to the Office of Immigration Statistics.

2020 - 707,362 (pandemic)

2019 - 1,031,765

2018 - 1,096,611

2017 - 1,127,167

2016 - 1,183,505

2015 - 1,051,031

2014 - 1,016,518

2013 - 990,553

2012 - 1,031,631

2011 - 1,062,040

2016 would be "under Obama" not under Trump.  So it is accurate to state that immigration was highest in Obama's last year and then dropped in each year of Trump's presidency.  Not including 2020, for obvious reasons, 2019 was more than 12% lower than Obama's final year.

 

[Stoneworker]

2016 would be "under Obama" not under Trump.  So it is accurate to state that immigration was highest in Obama's last year and then dropped in each year of Trump's presidency.  Not including 2020, for obvious reasons, 2019 was more than 12% lower than Obama's final year.

Correct. Thank you for pointing that out.

And while I get how it supports the anti-Trump narrative, but the "dropped in each year of Trump's presidency" is misleading and just not meaningful. The differences for the decade were minor and stats remarkably consistent across presidential terms. 

But if people want to play games with the Trump/Obama comparison, then it can also be said that Trump's first two years were higher than any of Obama's from 2011-2015. And on and on.

 

[Desert_Power]

2016 would be "under Obama" not under Trump.  So it is accurate to state that immigration was highest in Obama's last year and then dropped in each year of Trump's presidency.  Not including 2020, for obvious reasons, 2019 was more than 12% lower than Obama's final year.

It seems someone I have on ignore is posting misleading statistics to say Trump didn't reduce legal immigration. 

Good chart here showing what Trump did with refugees. Also this article talks about the general declines in legal immigration prior to the pandemic. The data, policies, and intent are all pretty clear. 

 

[Desert_Power]

Then there is no excuse not to raise it back up unless it’s a COVID issue.

Seems like covid plus the backlog, but I agree. Should be a big priority. We also need actual congressional action for folks like the Dreamers. 

 

[Desert_Power]

It seems someone I have on ignore is posting misleading statistics to say Trump didn't reduce legal immigration. 

Good chart here showing what Trump did with refugees. Also this article talks about the general declines in legal immigration prior to the pandemic. The data, policies, and intent are all pretty clear. 

Also, in their own words.

 

[Stoneworker]

It seems someone I have on ignore is posting misleading statistics to say Trump didn't reduce legal immigration. 

Good chart here showing what Trump did with refugees. Also this article talks about the general declines in legal immigration prior to the pandemic. The data, policies, and intent are all pretty clear. 

Lol at drawing misleading conclusions from some "article" vs. the actual gov't stats.

And even dumber for the "article" to data mine a comparison from Obama's high water mark in 2016, and then arbitrarily choose 2018 for Trump.

Most non-partisan, reasonable people would take a more comprehensive view by looking at the average under Obama's eight years and then average under Trump's three non-pandemic years.

Which of course concludes that average, non-pandemic legal immigration was actually higher under Trump than Obama.

Obama average - 1.063 million legal migrants

Trump average - 1.085 million legal migrants

That there was no meaningful difference btw Trump and Obama is the only conclusion for rational people.

 

[(HULK)]

If you don't think America is great, just consider this: We speak English. All the world want to learn English. There's actually a country who named themselves after our language.

Also side note: Net migration ≠ net migration rate.

I read so much crazy here that unfortunately, I can't tell if you're making a funny or being serious.

 

[(HULK)]

Except one doesn't have to live outside our country to experience cultural diversity.

I'm all for traveling and seeing other parts of the world. But the idea that one can't have cultural diversity unless you move to another country seemed odd. 

We have different cultures WITHIN our borders already. I mean, if you spent a week moving between San Fran, Louisiana's swampland, Boston Harbor, Fargo, Miami, West Virginia's coal country, and Buffalo... your head would be swimming. Every place would not only look distinctly different, they have their own cultures specific to these areas too. People speak differently, have different behaviors. Heck, we can't even decide what to call fizzy cola drinks because it's either soda, or pop, or "coke" universally applied to everything with bubbles.

 

[KarmaPolice]

We have different cultures WITHIN our borders already. I mean, if you spent a week moving between San Fran, Louisiana's swampland, Boston Harbor, Fargo, Miami, West Virginia's coal country, and Buffalo... your head would be swimming. Every place would not only look distinctly different, they have their own cultures specific to these areas too. People speak differently, have different behaviors. Heck, we can't even decide what to call fizzy cola drinks because it's either soda, or pop, or "coke" universally applied to everything with bubbles.

Yes, we have cultural diversity which is a big plus.   But it's still largely within the framework of our country, rules, ways we do things.   The reason I advocate for people traveling more, is you get to experience other ways of doing things, other media, whatever - IMO that makes a big difference.