Agree or Disagree: "The United States is still the greatest country in the history of human civilization"? (1 Viewer)

[pollardsvision]

 The US is awesome, but I have a question I'm genuinely curious about....

Have we ever really figured out a way to pay for ourselves without free labor?

No way we could have gained our Independence without the financial benefits of free labor. We made it for a time after the Civil War, but led right into the Great Depression. We got out of that through gubment spending and really only with WWII. 

We had the boom after WWII. Mainly because we were the only superpower nation that hadn't just been literally destroyed. A huge boom that lasted a few decades.

Seriously, what have we done positively since then?  40 years ago, we started drowning in debt. We have not fixed that, only accelerated it. 

I love this country. The people in it, absolutely. 

But we've spent lifetimes not even being able to pay for ourselves. And it's exceedingly unlikely that we ever will. 

 

[Capella]

Have you been to southern Cal? 
 

I spent the morning walking on the beach. The sun sparkled on the waves, I felt the rush of good sea air. It’s pretty close, man, pretty damn close. 

Ok but a woman of color in Mississippi ain’t living that life bro. It may be heavenly for you but it’s hell for many. 

 

[Westerberg]

Understood. I'm in Maui today. San Diego later this week. I understand beautiful beaches and great weather and food and the rest.

I still think the parts of Kentucky I've visited extensively are pretty great. 

I'd have no trouble recommending someone come for a weekend to do the KY Bourbon Trail or to camp at Red River Gorge. Moving and settling down here, no.

 

[Desert_Power]

Understood. 

But for a huge number of people, especially non white hetero males, I'm not too sure many would say 1950 was the Michael Jordan on the Bulls prime of our country's career.

I'd imagine for this demographic there probably isn't very much to any of our history that would qualify as particularly GOAT'd. Even the greatness of our accomplishment of WW2 is offset by what we were doing to Japanese back home. That is part of the reason I voted "disagree" in the poll.

It's multidimensional and nobody has created the perfect place. Still, I though the analogy was interesting.

 

[pollardsvision]

Us calling ourselves the greatest is like the guy on FaceGram saying he's rich because he drives a new car that he's making payments on for the next 7 years. (In the US's case, the next 300 years). 

Would anybody here call a company that ran at a loss for 40 years the greatest ever?

 

[bigbottom]

There should be an I have no idea option to the poll. I don’t consider myself even close to educated enough about world history to make a proclamation like that, particularly without any criteria identified. What I can say is that I have no interest in living anywhere else. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

I'd imagine for this demographic there probably isn't very much to any of our history that would qualify as particularly GOAT'd. Even the greatness of our accomplishment of WW2 is offset by what we were doing to Japanese back home. That is part of the reason I voted "disagree" in the poll.

It's multidimensional and nobody has created the perfect place. Still, I though the analogy was interesting.

Sure. I'm talking about the population that does not fit that white straight hetero demographic. I can't imagine many of those people see 1950's America as our Jordan on the Bulls glory years and see today as far inferior.

 

[joffer]

Seriously? They treated non-Romans like ####. Even before they were an empire. 

it’s like calling Galileo a moron.  It’s all relative

 

[ekbeats]

Not today, no.  It’s amazing how it went so bad so fast.

 

[Northern Voice]

b) it's the ideals expressed in our Declaration of Independence that make us the greatest civilization in recorded history. To have erred in application of those ideals does not necessarily disqualify us from having the most egalitarian and free civilization in history. 

What a country. It's been dimmed the better part of this century by rancor, but it's still a shining city on a hill to me. 

1) You don't think there are dozens of other countries with similarly idealistic founding documents?

2) Do you really think the USA today is the most egalitarian and free civilization in the world? (It's not). 

The arguments in terms of USA as the greatest have been talked about in terms of economy, medical contributions to the world, peace keeping/making around the world (debatable how much of a positive this is but the might is still there).

There are better places for most non white men to live. There are safer countries for any one to live. There are countless countries with better access to health care and higher education, better electoral systems, better public infrastructure/transportation, better treatment of the weakest members of society. 

I get it's July 4 but I've been to many countries and many different parts of the United States and I don't really see a good case for present day USA. 

 

[Desert_Power]

Sure. I'm talking about the population that does not fit that white straight hetero demographic. I can't imagine many of those people see 1950's America as our Jordan on the Bulls glory years and see today as far inferior.

Yep, I don't disagree.

 

[dkp993]

I'm in Maui today.

Mama’s Fish House.  If you haven’t it’s a must. 

 

[Stoneworker]

Plenty of people making bold statements that U.S. is not the greatest country.

Unfortunately not a single person has made anything close to a legit case for which one is greater. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

Mama’s Fish House.  If you haven’t it’s a must. 

Lunch tomorrow!

 

[rockaction]

You don't think there are dozens of other countries with similarly idealistic founding documents?

Nothing that predates it or is based on natural rights. 

Do you really think the USA today is the most egalitarian and free civilization in the world? (It's not). 

It would really depend upon your criteria. When it comes to negative rights (things that government can't transgress upon) the United States has unparalleled restraint on government. From speech (which our friends to the North do not have) to religion to other rights codified in the Bill of Rights, I can think of almost no other country that guarantees freedom from majoritarian governance than the United States. Of course, there are comparable charters in the West and in EU countries, but nothing really touches the breadth and scope of our rights. The only glaring example I can think of that contravenes this is EU privacy law, which seems vastly superior to ours. 

If you're arguing for positive rights, then other countries have a case to be made (even possibly as shining examples), but strictly negative rights? It's the US of A. And that's not chauvinism. In fact, I'm rarely chauvinistic nor patriotic. I'm talking strictly things the government cannot do and that natural rights guarantee in America. 

 

[Northern Voice]

Plenty of people making bold statements that U.S. is not the greatest country.

Unfortunately not a single person has made anything close to a legit case for which one is greater. 

By my criteria outlined above, which is based on liveability - access to health care, access to and quality of education, equal rights, women's rights, infrastructure and public transportation, public safety, gun violence, system of government, treatment of those most in need, I'll comfortably say Germany, Canada, Australia, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland.

That's my criteria though. If your criteria goes more historical or is about collective contributions to the world, military force, etc... it's a different list. And you can certainly make the case that all of the countries above have benefited from many, many US contributions, be they military in world wars or assumed protection, medical in terms of research breakthroughs, etc... I won't disagree at all or discredit the amazing ways the world has been made better by American innovation and expansion. 

I just don't think by most measures it's the best country in the world for most people, or the average person to live in. 

 

[Stoneworker]

By my criteria outlined above, which is based on liveability - access to health care, access to and quality of education, equal rights, women's rights, infrastructure and public transportation, public safety, gun violence, system of government, treatment of those most in need, I'll comfortably say Germany, Canada, Australia, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland.

That's my criteria though. If your criteria goes more historical or is about collective contributions to the world, military force, etc... it's a different list. And you can certainly make the case that all of the countries above have benefited from many, many US contributions, be they military in world wars or assumed protection, medical in terms of research breakthroughs, etc... I won't disagree at all or discredit the amazing ways the world has been made better by American innovation and expansion. 

I just don't think by most measures it's the best country in the world for most people, or the average person to live in. 

Yes. What you listed are primarily "quality of life" criteria. I posted a link earlier showing U.S. ranked #20 on that list.

What's interesting is you stated there are "better places for non-white men to live." And yet many of those countries in your list are relatively small, and primarily racially and culturally homogeneous.

And yes my criteria for greatness goes far beyond quality of life, including innovation, global influence and power, cultural foundation based on immigration, economic system and competitiveness, natural resource wealth, religious freedom, individual opportunity and productivity, multiple types of leadership (economic, technology, medical, military, financial markets, etc), intellectual capital, quality/quantity of higher education institutions, reserve currency status, etc.

 

[Northern Voice]

What's interesting is you stated there are "better places for non-white men to live." And yet many of those countries in your list are relatively small, and primarily racially and culturally homogeneous.

No they aren't (at least not moreso than the United States) And most countries are smaller than the United States and most countries have the same split of culturally/racially diverse urban areas and more homogeneous rural and suburban areas. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

I would say slightly disagree.  Still great, but I would guess there are other places that would score higher in things that I place a higher value on. 

 

[joffer]

perhaps if we incarcerate some more people we can move up

 

[Stoneworker]

No they aren't (at least not moreso than the United States) And most countries are smaller than the United States and most countries have the same split of culturally/racially diverse urban areas and more homogeneous rural and suburban areas. 

God bless you if you think Sweden (85% white), Norway (92.9% white), Canada (80% white) and Switzerland (95.2% white) are more racially and culturally diverse than the U.S. (61% white).

 

[BobbyLayne]

America should be in a timeout. No birthday party for you this year.

***************

Some global rankings for the U.S

**Society**

Standard of Living - (HDI) 13th (Inequality adjusted) - 25th

Quality of Life - 14th

Social Mobility - 27th

Happiness - 18th

Good Country Index - 40th

Reputation - 36th

Incarceration rate - 1st

Global Diversity Index - 25th (84th on Fearons analysis)

Least Racist - 69th

Gender equality (GEI) - 30th

**Health**

Maternal Mortality Ratio - 46th

Life Expectancy - 42nd

Infant mortality rate: 33rd out of 36 OECD countries.

Health care system - 36th out of 36 OECD countries.

**Schooling**

Schooling System - 29th.

40th (of 72) in Mathematics, 25th (of 72) in Science, 24th (of 72) in Reading

School Shootings: - 1st

**Politics and Law**

Transparency International 2019 Corruption Perceptions Index: ranked 23 out of 198 countries.

Economist Intelligence Unit 2019 Democracy Index: ranked 25 out of 167 countries

World Justice Project 2020 Rule of Law Index ranked 21 out of 128 countries and jurisdictions

Global Peace Index - 121st

Press Freedom - 42nd (edited with more recent data from 45th)

State of World Liberty Index - 15th

Human Freedom Index - 17th

**Economy**

Gross G.D.P Growth Rate - 112th

Innovation - 11th

Employment to Population ratio - 81st

Career opportunities - 4th

Economic Freedom - 25th

Global Competitiveness - 2nd

Enabling Trade - 22nd

Globalisation - 27th

Gross Debt - 1st

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_rankings_of_the_United_States

https://ceoworld.biz/2021/06/20/the-worlds-best-countries-for-quality-of-life-2021/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_rankings_of_the_United_States

https://www.americashealthrankings.org/learn/reports/2019-annual-report/international-comparison

https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking?version=295

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/least-racist-countries

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/slideshows/worst-countries-for-racial-equality?slide=2

https://knoema.com/atlas/ranks/Employment-to-population-ratio

https://knoema.com/atlas/ranks/Real-GDP-growth

https://worldtop20.org/education-database

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2020/03/20/ranked-20-happiest-countries-2020/?sh=64826e9a7850

https://www.forbes.com/sites/vickyvalet/2019/10/15/the-worlds-most-reputable-countries-2019/?sh=7c23334c4cb8

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/incarceration-rates-by-country

https://www.rickshawtravel.co.uk/blog/global-diversity-index-the-most-diverse-countries-in-the-world/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Peace_Index

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-innovative-countries

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_World_Liberty_Index

https://ceoworld.biz/2020/05/21/ranked-the-worlds-best-countries-in-which-to-start-a-career-2020/

https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index/2020

https://rsf.org/en/index

 

[Northern Voice]

God bless you if you think Sweden (85% white), Norway (92.9% white), Canada (80% white) and Switzerland (95.2% white) are more racially and culturally diverse than the U.S. (61% white).

It's an interesting discussion. In terms of black v. White, you're obviously correct. In terms of foreign born/immigrant population, the percentages are:

Australia 30.1%

Switzerland 28.8%

Canada 21.3%

Germany 18.9%

Norway 15.7%

USA 15.3%

So in terms of cultural diversity, USA is per capita getting the least new blood. (sheer numbers, still #1, because again, big country). 

 

[KarmaPolice]

From Bobby's stats, we lead the world in debt, incarceration rates, and school shootings.  

Awesome. 

 

[Stoneworker]

From Bobby's stats, we lead the world in debt, incarceration rates, and school shootings.  

Awesome. 

One convenient omission, however...

The U.S. also has the largest and most technologically advanced military in the world.

Awesome.

 

[sho nuff]

I do have to laugh on the surface at “Good Country” index.

 

[Nugget]

Plenty of people making bold statements that U.S. is not the greatest country.

Unfortunately not a single person has made anything close to a legit case for which one is greater. 

Historically, probably the British Empire.

Currently, Northern Voice has a pretty good list. 

 

[ekbeats]

Plenty of people making bold statements that U.S. is not the greatest country.

Unfortunately not a single person has made anything close to a legit case for which one is greater. 

Any country without all the internal rancor.  This is not normal, and it’s not sustainable.  Feeling a sense of community and nationhood is very important to me.  I guess I didn’t realize that until it was gone.

 

[Desert_Power]

From Bobby's stats, we lead the world in debt, incarceration rates, and school shootings.  

Awesome. 

Gross debt doesn’t mean much though. The largest economy having the largest debt isn’t exactly shocking. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

It's an interesting discussion. In terms of black v. White, you're obviously correct. In terms of foreign born/immigrant population, the percentages are:

Australia 30.1%

Switzerland 28.8%

Canada 21.3%

Germany 18.9%

Norway 15.7%

USA 15.3%

So in terms of cultural diversity, USA is per capita getting the least new blood. (sheer numbers, still #1, because again, big country). 

One has to come from another country to have a different culture?

In a country as large as the United States, we do a pretty good job of representing different cultures all in one country. 

 

[Stoneworker]

Historically, probably the British Empire.

Currently, Northern Voice has a pretty good list. 

Meh. I suppose it's a fine list if people want to live where everyone gets a ribbon.

Personally, I prefer to live amongst the best and brightest.

America is the land of opportunity – there is no other country where I could have done this - Elon Musk, immigrant

 

[Northern Voice]

One has to come from another country to have a different culture?

In a country as large as the United States, we do a pretty good job of representing different cultures all in one country. 

Sure, you also have the lowest percentage of people who have lived outside the country and experienced other cultures, which benefits and adds to overall cultural diversity. 

 

[ekbeats]

America should be in a timeout. No birthday party for you this year.

***************

Some global rankings for the U.S

**Society**

Standard of Living - (HDI) 13th (Inequality adjusted) - 25th

Quality of Life - 14th

Social Mobility - 27th

Happiness - 18th

Good Country Index - 40th

Reputation - 36th

Incarceration rate - 1st

Global Diversity Index - 25th (84th on Fearons analysis)

Least Racist - 69th

Gender equality (GEI) - 30th

**Health**

Maternal Mortality Ratio - 46th

Life Expectancy - 42nd

Infant mortality rate: 33rd out of 36 OECD countries.

Health care system - 36th out of 36 OECD countries.

**Schooling**

Schooling System - 29th.

40th (of 72) in Mathematics, 25th (of 72) in Science, 24th (of 72) in Reading

School Shootings: - 1st

**Politics and Law**

Transparency International 2019 Corruption Perceptions Index: ranked 23 out of 198 countries.

Economist Intelligence Unit 2019 Democracy Index: ranked 25 out of 167 countries

World Justice Project 2020 Rule of Law Index ranked 21 out of 128 countries and jurisdictions

Global Peace Index - 121st

Press Freedom - 42nd (edited with more recent data from 45th)

State of World Liberty Index - 15th

Human Freedom Index - 17th

**Economy**

Gross G.D.P Growth Rate - 112th

Innovation - 11th

Employment to Population ratio - 81st

Career opportunities - 4th

Economic Freedom - 25th

Global Competitiveness - 2nd

Enabling Trade - 22nd

Globalisation - 27th

Gross Debt - 1st

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_rankings_of_the_United_States

https://ceoworld.biz/2021/06/20/the-worlds-best-countries-for-quality-of-life-2021/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_rankings_of_the_United_States

https://www.americashealthrankings.org/learn/reports/2019-annual-report/international-comparison

https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking?version=295

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/least-racist-countries

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/slideshows/worst-countries-for-racial-equality?slide=2

https://knoema.com/atlas/ranks/Employment-to-population-ratio

https://knoema.com/atlas/ranks/Real-GDP-growth

https://worldtop20.org/education-database

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2020/03/20/ranked-20-happiest-countries-2020/?sh=64826e9a7850

https://www.forbes.com/sites/vickyvalet/2019/10/15/the-worlds-most-reputable-countries-2019/?sh=7c23334c4cb8

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/incarceration-rates-by-country

https://www.rickshawtravel.co.uk/blog/global-diversity-index-the-most-diverse-countries-in-the-world/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Peace_Index

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-innovative-countries

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_World_Liberty_Index

https://ceoworld.biz/2020/05/21/ranked-the-worlds-best-countries-in-which-to-start-a-career-2020/

https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index/2020

https://rsf.org/en/index

Unbelievable post Bobby.

 

[Northern Voice]

America is the land of opportunity – there is no other country where I could have done this - Elon Musk, immigrant

- immigrant who came to the United States via Canada because of American immigration policies.  

 

[Capella]

Unbelievable post Bobby.

Can’t believe anybody can read that post and think the US is the greatest country right now. I love this place but it’s a disaster right now and things are likely going to get worse. 

 

[Nugget]

- immigrant who came to the United States via Canada because of American immigration policies.  

I think he overstayed his student Visa and was possibly an illegal immigrant at one point, but the details are a bit shaky. 

 

[lazyike]

We have a great Constitution as long as we adhere to it and politicians stay true to the oaths they take. It could use some tweaking and amendments but a great framework. I have serious concerns about that right now. It's a Republic if you can keep it. We are currently too partisan and there is to much extremism. 

 

[GoBirds]

Always negativity in here but I can’t think of another country I would even consider over ours, a lot to be grateful for. One of our many freedoms is the ability to leave if I ever felt differently. I can’t complain. 

 

[joffer]

We have a great Constitution as long as we adhere to it and politicians stay true to the oaths they take. It could use some tweaking and amendments but a great framework. I have serious concerns about that right now. It's a Republic if you can keep it. We are currently too partisan and there is to much extremism. 

this republic is over on election night 2024

 

[Atomic Punk]

America is a great country and would be at the top of most lists made by most people across the globe. But just like the beautiful woman saying, “look how beautiful I am” or the really intelligent guy saying, “I’m the smartest guy in the room”, this need to talk about how great you are just seems weird and off putting. I’ll never understand this, but it truly is unique to Americans.

 

[Nugget]

Always negativity in here but I can’t think of another country I would even consider over ours, a lot to be grateful for. One of our many freedoms is the ability to leave if I ever felt differently. I can’t complain. 

If you have $180, 10 weeks notice, and proper papers you can see if other countries will take you. 

 

[The Dude]

Related but political

we need a business plan for America.  And 75 percent of it should be run by congress so that no matter which side is in power the ball keeps moving forward keeping with the plan.  All people pushing the same balll

the president then gets say over the 25 from their platform - or maybe 80-20

 

[Joe Bryant]

Sure, you also have the lowest percentage of people who have lived outside the country and experienced other cultures, which benefits and adds to overall cultural diversity. 

Except one doesn't have to live outside our country to experience cultural diversity.

I'm all for traveling and seeing other parts of the world. But the idea that one can't have cultural diversity unless you move to another country seemed odd. 

 

[skol asylum]

If you are an upper class white male in the US it couldn't get much better. For other groups, things are backsliding in a hurry unfortunately. We have the potential to be truly great but are currently experiencing a backlash against progress. I'm very pessimistic about what this means for the next couple of decades but trying to remain hopeful that we will overcome at some point.

 

[lazyike]

this republic is over on election night 2024

Sadly I think there is a possibility.

 

[Teumessian Fox]

Overall things seems pretty good right now, not sure what you people want anymore. Yeah gas prices are through the roof and some child bearing persons can't get abortions as conveniently as before, but even so, things don't seem so bad 

 

[Northern Voice]

Except one doesn't have to live outside our country to experience cultural diversity.

I'm all for traveling and seeing other parts of the world. But the idea that one can't have cultural diversity unless you move to another country seemed odd. 

Not what I said at all. I stated the numbers of people per capita born outside the country for the various countries we're discussing and I said that having that higher percentage of people who have lived outside the country adds to overall cultural diversity. 

I said both these things in response to the notion that Canada, Sweden, Australia, etc... are culturally homogeneous, which they clearly are not. I agreed that the United States is racially and culturally diverse in both instances

You seem to be putting words in my mouth/misinterpreting a point I'm not making in terms of American diversity. 

 

[timschochet]

I have to admit that days like this, with the parade shooting (and apparently another one developing in Philadelphia) I start to wonder a little. But I know that most people are good. 

 

[Stoneworker]

Always negativity in here but I can’t think of another country I would even consider over ours, a lot to be grateful for. One of our many freedoms is the ability to leave if I ever felt differently. I can’t complain. 

Agreed.

On the bolded, we need to keep things in perspective.

The poll results show 2:1 agree/disagree with the OP.

As usual, the America haters are minority in number, yet disproportionately loud and vocal when it comes to the hate speech.

 

[ekbeats]

If you are an upper class white male in the US it couldn't get much better. For other groups, things are backsliding in a hurry unfortunately.

Interesting.  What are you basing that on?  It would seem that white males are doing comparatively worse than they were 20 years ago, while minorities (including LBGTQIA+) have made substantial strides.