All Time Soccer/Football Draft and Tourney (1 Viewer)

[charvik]

Considering drafting all pre-1950 born players, but would get killed in the polls. I probably will anyways, so maybe I should. 

 

[Brady Marino]

McBride was a nice player but you could get a strong argument that he would not start over Dempsey on an all time US team.

I can see that. Dempsey has the longevity advantage, but their scoring rates for both club and international play are similar.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Considering drafting all pre-1950 born players, but would get killed in the polls. I probably will anyways, so maybe I should. 

This is one of the reasons I did not join but am interested to watch.  How does one compare Garrincha to Ronaldihno?

 

[charvik]

This actually hurts a player like Landon since he never had 1 position.  He excelled at various spots but that could benefit him since many people value a jackknife type player off the bench.

Good point, and he might get a bump up the ratings if people consider voting, since most here are American born, he could get a bias boost

 

[charvik]

This is one of the reasons I did not join but am interested to watch.  How does one compare Garrincha to Ronaldihno?

Yeah, I hear that... kind of regretting it, but also looking forward to drafting a bunch of players nobody has ever heard of.

ETA: if @Eephus ever picks...

 

[shader]

I plan on unabashedly appealing to the masses.  

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Considering drafting all pre-1950 born players, but would get killed in the polls. I probably will anyways, so maybe I should. 

I'm hoping the other drafters will surprise you.  There's no way around the fact that I've seen Lionel Messi play hundreds of games and I've seen Pele play 3 games and a bunch of YouTube clips.  That's not going to stop me from drafting guys with the reputations and accomplishments.  And if it sends me down the old YouTube rabbit hole, all the better.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I can see that. Dempsey has the longevity advantage, but their scoring rates for both club and international play are similar.

They are close, here is some data.

McBride played on the US National team for 13 years to Dempsey's 12, but Dempsey played in many more games.

McBride was a pro for 16 years to 12 years for Dempsey, but Dempsey should get 2-3 more before he retires.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

In the interest of furthering discussion ...  How do you rate Pele?  For years, he was the face of soccer to me.  To the point that it was odd to hear that there were other players (even ones I had seen) who had claims to the best ever title.  When you watch him on YouTube, you see the skill.  The incredible balance. The excellent dribbling.  But you also see some calamitous defending and goal keeping. 

He has the most "Black Ink".  Reports of over 1000 competitive goals scored (always hard to tell in Brazil).  His teams won a lot of club honors from 1962-1966 or so, but other than that 4 year period, Santos didn't dominate Brazil, much less South America. He really only has two meaningful games against European club sides, but he won both of them and scored a hattrick to beat __________'s Benfica in the 62 Intercontinental Cup.  He has the 3 World Cups, but there's an asterisk there because he really wasn't part of the 64 World Cup.  He was the most famous player on the most beloved international team ever, but that team was LOADED.  The majority of them are going to be drafted in this. You can argue that he wasn't the most outstanding player in any of his World Cup wins. 

I'm sure it's heresy and I never really saw him play, but there's no way he's in the GOAT conversation for me based on what I've been able to find out today.  Competition in SA was probably a lot stronger prior to everyone going to Europe, but it still looks really uneven in the clips you see.  Happy to admit I could be crazy though.

 

[Spartans Rule]

I plan on unabashedly appealing to the masses.  

Not me. I will draft old guys, boring defensive types, whatever's available that I think makes the best team.

 

[shader]

I'm hoping the other drafters will surprise you.  There's no way around the fact that I've seen Lionel Messi play hundreds of games and I've seen Pele play 3 games and a bunch of YouTube clips.  That's not going to stop me from drafting guys with the reputations and accomplishments.  And if it sends me down the old YouTube rabbit hole, all the better.

I agree it's why I joined.  The research that this draft will do will in turn make me a better overall fan of the game.

 

[shader]

I'm sure it's heresy and I never really saw him play, but there's no way he's in the GOAT conversation for me based on what I've been able to find out today.  Competition in SA was probably a lot stronger prior to everyone going to Europe, but it still looks really uneven in the clips you see.  Happy to admit I could be crazy though.

Since we're sort of on the subject, 20-40 years ago, did most players play club football in their home country?  

 

[charvik]

Maybe an all Italian team? @Kafka

 

[charvik]

Since we're sort of on the subject, 20-40 years ago, did most players play club football in their home country?  

Depends on the country, and how strong the domestic league was.

ETA: Pre and Post Bosman as well.

 

[The Gator]

I think rhe is going to actually play these games out, not go by poles

 

[charvik]

I think rhe is going to actually play these games out, not go by poles

oh, so we submit tactical formation as well? That could change things... especially for my 1st pick.

 

[shader]

Hey guys, read the first two posts in this thread.  They lay it all out.

 

[Eephus]

1.05  Franz Beckenbauer

That sound you hear is Der Kaiser parking the bus

 

[charvik]

Hey guys, read the first two posts in this thread.  They lay it all out.

Learning the scoring before the draft? Where's the fun in that?

 

[NewlyRetired]

Since we're sort of on the subject, 20-40 years ago, did most players play club football in their home country?  

This is a tricky question that may need rewording.

even today, most players play club football in their home country.   I would have to look it up but if I had to guess, possibly only Argentina and Brazil have more players abroad than at home.

If you are instead wondering whether more players go abroad today than 40 years ago, I think that is certainly true.

 

[Brady Marino]

Maybe an all Italian team? @Kafka

You better have Roberto Baggio on PKs.

 

[The Gator]

FTW

"Tell Brady to shut his ### ####ed #### mouth! /tasker

 

[shader]

This is a tricky question that may need rewording.

even today, most players play club football in their home country.   I would have to look it up but if I had to guess, possibly only Argentina and Brazil have more players abroad than at home.

If you are instead wondering whether more players go abroad today than 40 years ago, I think that is certainly true.

Makes perfect sense.  Thanks!

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

1.05  Franz Beckenbauer

That sound you hear is Der Kaiser parking the bus

Would have been my pick at #3, after Messi and Maradona.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I think rhe is going to actually play these games out, not go by poles

The polls do influence the games by allowing teams to roll on the more advantageous tables,  though.

But that leads me to a contemplated change in the games.  How it is now is that I check in on the games every 2 hours six times (to correspond to game checks at 15 minutes; 30 minutes; HT; 60 minutes; 75 minutes; and FT).  The idea was to allow for the voting to evolve and let late voters take account of things that have already happened, like cards or injuries.  My worry is that 90% of the voters will vote immediately and then we'll never have any ebb and flow of control.

So the alternative is to just use the final voting.  We'd still have all the same tables, but if a team gets over 60% of the vote, they'd roll against the Advantage table 3 times, the neutral table 2 times, and the disadvantage table once.  If a team is under 40%, the team rolls against the advantage table once, the neutral table twice, and the disadvantage table three times.  If the poll gives no team 60%, then each team rolls against each table twice.

 

[El Floppo]

HOW IS TONY MEOLA STILL OUT THERE

tony meola used to come to my college games because our GK was the GK for his HS team [dropsthenamemicdrop]

 

[NewlyRetired]

I'm sure it's heresy and I never really saw him play, but there's no way he's in the GOAT conversation for me based on what I've been able to find out today.  Competition in SA was probably a lot stronger prior to everyone going to Europe, but it still looks really uneven in the clips you see.  Happy to admit I could be crazy though.

One thing that strikes me when watching older clips is just how much space was given to offensive players.   I think very few teams pressed high at all.

I think the tactical side of the game is so advanced today from the 50's and 60's that it is very hard to compare.  And that doesn't even take into account general fitness issues of which are so much better today.

 

[Eephus]

Would have been my pick at #3, after Messi and Maradona.

My manager Jurgen Klinsmann will deploy Beckenbauer as a late game sub at left wing.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

My manager Jurgen Klinsmann will deploy Beckenbauer as a late game sub at left wing.

I think I speak for the thread when I say I'm glad you made it Eephus.

 

[charvik]

1.07 Ferenc Puskás

No-brainer after der Kaiser went before me.

Mighty Magyars, 5 domestic titles, 5 titles with Real Madrid, scored 7 goals in 2 European Cup finals, 3 European cups to his name, almost a goal per game, top league goal scorer for Real 4 times. Inside Left Forward, which I need to fit my formation. Only one other I would consider here, and I expect him to go next.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

My manager Jurgen Klinsmann will deploy Beckenbauer as a late game sub at left wing.

I thought Beckenbauer might drop simply because it's kind of unclear what position he'd play today.  I'd think it would be DM, but maybe CB.  Mad props if you go full retro and play him as a Libero.

 

[El Floppo]

1.07 Ferenc Puskás

No-brainer after der Kaiser went before me.

Mighty Magyars, 5 domestic titles, 5 titles with Real Madrid, scored 7 goals in 2 European Cup finals, 3 European cups to his name, almost a goal per game, top league goal scorer for Real 4 times. Inside Left Forward, which I need to fit my formation. Only one other I would consider here, and I expect him to go next.

well, ####.

plus he's got the award named after him too.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

1.07 Ferenc Puskás

No-brainer after der Kaiser went before me.

Mighty Magyars, 5 domestic titles, 5 titles with Real Madrid, scored 7 goals in 2 European Cup finals, 3 European cups to his name, almost a goal per game, top league goal scorer for Real 4 times. Inside Left Forward, which I need to fit my formation. Only one other I would consider here, and I expect him to go next.

Also important to remember that although he's known for not getting the big one in the World Cup final, the 52 Olympic Gold Medal was just as big an achievement back then. 

Could easily fit into a modern formation, IMO. 

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

1.07 Ferenc Puskás

No-brainer after der Kaiser went before me.

Mighty Magyars, 5 domestic titles, 5 titles with Real Madrid, scored 7 goals in 2 European Cup finals, 3 European cups to his name, almost a goal per game, top league goal scorer for Real 4 times. Inside Left Forward, which I need to fit my formation. Only one other I would consider here, and I expect him to go next.

So famous he made it into Aly Cissokho's highlight vid.

 

[Spartans Rule]

I thought Beckenbauer might drop simply because it's kind of unclear what position he'd play today.  I'd think it would be DM, but maybe CB.  Mad props if you go full retro and play him as a Libero.

Tactical history adds a very interesting dimension to this draft. Someone could build a 2-3-5 and would probably amass better talent just because of the greater prevalence of attackers, but it'd be an absolute disaster on the pitch.

While the libero has come and gone from top level soccer, players with Beckenbauer's skill set - the ability to both defend and distribute from the back - are valued more than ever. There's definitely a VBD argument for him going even higher than 6.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I am interested to see who the first non Euro non South American player chosen is.  

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I am interested to see who the first non Euro non South American player chosen is.  

Country of birth?  Or NT affiliation?

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Remember to name check the next guy on the list.

@((Morpheus))

 

[NewlyRetired]

Country of birth?  Or NT affiliation?

NT affiliation.  Country of birth who did not play there is a choice for a possible top ten pick.

 

[Eephus]

Tactical history adds a very interesting dimension to this draft. Someone could build a 2-3-5 and would probably amass better talent just because of the greater prevalence of attackers, but it'd be an absolute disaster on the pitch.

While the libero has come and gone from top level soccer, players with Beckenbauer's skill set - the ability to both defend and distribute from the back - are valued more than ever. There's definitely a VBD argument for him going even higher than 6.

Beckenbauer could play in front of the back four as well.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Country of birth?  Or NT affiliation?

I suspect if it's the former, the answer will be coming fairly soon.

 

[((Morpheus))]

I, too, was hoping for Beckenbauer to fall.

1.08 - Alfredo Di Stéfano

At a conference for the next few days, so I'm limited to short posts from my phone... I was hoping to build a team of modern players, but this is the obvious pick here. Just Google him.

 

[Spartans Rule]

Beckenbauer could play in front of the back four as well.

In FM terms, he'd make a great a DLP/Defend.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Although he only won 1 World Cup, it's hard to think of a player who had a better three consecutive World Cups than Beckenbauer.

He lead the West Germans to the finals as a pup in 66.  In 70 he played in the greatest World Cup game ever in the semis, finishing with his arm in a sling because of a dislocated shoulder.  And of course, he lead West Germany to the title in 74. 

On the club side, he was part of those great mid 70s European Champ Bayern teams.  For those that care, he struck a 8-10 year old me as the best player in the NASL by far.  And after the Cosmos, he went to Hamburg and lead them to the Bundesliga title.  In terms of team success, no one has a better resume. 

 

[The Gator]

Puskás all the years... 

 

[shader]

Is there a site that shows all-time assists leaders?  I can't seem to find it.  I'm sensing that this isn't a stat that meant a whole lot 20 years ago?

 

[NewlyRetired]

Is there a site that shows all-time assists leaders?  I can't seem to find it.  I'm sensing that this isn't a stat that meant a whole lot 20 years ago?

You are correct.  You will not be able to find that data as no one recorded it.

 

[Spartans Rule]

Even historical goal leaders are somewhat disputed. Assists have some subjectivity to them, and were probably tracked differently in different places, and in some places not at all.

 

[PIK95]

1.09 90's and 00's star Ronaldo from Brazil.

This was the guy I wanted, but the Irish in me tried to change my mind.

 

[charvik]

Beckenbauer could play in front of the back four as well.

Without a doubt, would fit perfectly in that role.