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Amari Cooper v Kevin White - Dynasty (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Soulfly3
- Start date
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Shutout
Footballguy
Scary thing about debates like these is it seems that every time we see one, it ends up being one guy goes on to be a star and the other a washout.
Based solely on the price it would take to draft these guys, I would feel better going Cooper if I were doing it. Think about it this way: if you use a top 2-4 rookie pick on either guy and they come out the first two seasons and are average, Cooper is the BMW and will hold his resale value. People will still give him the benefit of the doubt if there are ANY scenarios out there where they can say "but this happened". White, on the other hand, is more of a used Mazda. People will immediately start bringing out the "one hit wonder" stuff and he won't hold the value.
So, for me, I don't care if White can be a healthy Julio and Cooper can "only" be Jordy Nelson or whatever. More to lose by going white (that's what she said) on this one.
Based solely on the price it would take to draft these guys, I would feel better going Cooper if I were doing it. Think about it this way: if you use a top 2-4 rookie pick on either guy and they come out the first two seasons and are average, Cooper is the BMW and will hold his resale value. People will still give him the benefit of the doubt if there are ANY scenarios out there where they can say "but this happened". White, on the other hand, is more of a used Mazda. People will immediately start bringing out the "one hit wonder" stuff and he won't hold the value.
So, for me, I don't care if White can be a healthy Julio and Cooper can "only" be Jordy Nelson or whatever. More to lose by going white (that's what she said) on this one.
Ray Barboni
Footballguy
I will be very upset if I can't land Cooper ... I currently own the 3rd and 6th picks. If Cooper is taken ahead of 3rd overall, I will undoubtedly trade down to acquire more picks.
White could be great - but I want a "sure thing" with my 3rd overall pick. I know i know, there are no sure things in the rookie draft - but Cooper's advanced route tree, football IQ, athletic ability and work ethic puts him in a tier above white IMO. On top of all of that, he's what? 2 years younger than white?
Cooper all day, everyday.
White could be great - but I want a "sure thing" with my 3rd overall pick. I know i know, there are no sure things in the rookie draft - but Cooper's advanced route tree, football IQ, athletic ability and work ethic puts him in a tier above white IMO. On top of all of that, he's what? 2 years younger than white?
Cooper all day, everyday.
Who's the best wide receiver in 2015 NFL Draft?
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000485715/article/whos-the-best-wide-receiver-in-2015-nfl-draft
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000485715/article/whos-the-best-wide-receiver-in-2015-nfl-draft
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
3rd & 6th huh? I'm right there with ya! Obviously I'm sure our teams have different needs but just to get another opinion what exactly are you hoping for with those picks? I'm between picking a big 3 RB (Gord/Gurl/Jay) or jumping on Coop at 3, assuming nobody picks him before me (which I can't rule out).Ray Barboni said:
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
Yep...the sports science segment also proved that Cooper is indeed faster than White. They use an infrared system to start the clock instead of using a stopwatch by hand at the combine. Just more proof at how over rated 40 times are at the combine since the results aren't even accurate...
I agree....but if you noticed....prior to the combine Cooper was above White on just about every ranking out there. It wasn't until the combine, specifically the 40 times, that White started jumping Cooper in the rankings.
Chaka
Footballguy
Of course I noticed but those rankings come from people paid to keep the 24 news cycle rolling. I am certain there is not a person associated with player evaluation for an NFL team who has spoken publicly and given a fair and honest assessment of any player.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Should the real question by White or Parker?
ghostguy123
Footballguy
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
Update
deancheated
Footballguy
Better offense- Bears
Better Qb- Raiders
Better Qb- Raiders
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
One More Rep
Footballguy
I will take Cooper also but I am fine getting White . He will see less coverage with Alshon on other side
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
lurked this thread w/o posting in it till now. Didn't want to jinx it.
bump Carr
bump Carr
Chaka
Footballguy
Not sure I agree.
I like Chi's offense and they are definitely more proven. Chi has an exciting WR corps but Forte is high mileage and Cutler has a history of coming up small in the win column (despite occasional flashes in the stat column). The line is decent but no better than a push with the Oakland line.
The Raiders OTOH are more about potential but I think they could easily outproduce Chi this season. Remember the Chi offense is going to look a lot different with Trestman out of the picture.
deancheated
Footballguy
mikmak8902
Footballguy
I have the 1.02 in one of my dynasty leagues and I have, literally, been trying to sell myself on Cooper. I'm not one to simply go with the idea that Cooper is the safer pick because the analysts say so. I certainly don't put any stock in the Raiders choosing Cooper over White.
When I watch Cooper, I see a very fast WR with very nice hands but I question just how good his route running is. Don't get me wrong ... he appears to be a solid route runner but all I hear is that this guy is the next Marvin Harrison when it comes to route running and I'm just not seeing that level of expertise. However, maybe I'm missing some nuances that an expert in that area could shed some light on.
My main concern with Cooper is that I really don't see much running ability after the catch. He's straight line fast and he can move a bit but this guy is, by no means, a WR that is going to break ankles after the catch. I don't see alot of wiggle at all. Alot of his post-catch yards were due to his speed (simply running away from guys) or exceptional downfield blocking by the other bama receivers. Any move he did make were not really sharp cuts but rather hesitation/burst moves that may not work as well at the NFL level.
So we have a guy that does not have the big advantage in size but is not small. Very fast. Good route runner. Good hands. But he's going to a team that was WORST IN THE LEAGUE in yards per pass last year ...
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-pass-attempt/
... and doesn't appear to be an elite runner with the ball.
Look over his highlights (kind of hard not to find them) and let me know if I'm completely off base here. Don't get me wrong. I think the guy is a nice receiver but I see alot of people writing that they will go with Cooper as the can't miss and I think he's far from a lock ... especially going to a perennially bad offense.
At this point, I'm actually leaning Kevin White here as I see a guy that is 2 inches taller and plays more physical. He also plays for a better passing offense that has enough other weapons to ensure he won't be doubled constantly but not so many that it will severely hurt his opportunities. On top of that, he will win more jump balls than cooper and break more tackles.
When I watch Cooper, I see a very fast WR with very nice hands but I question just how good his route running is. Don't get me wrong ... he appears to be a solid route runner but all I hear is that this guy is the next Marvin Harrison when it comes to route running and I'm just not seeing that level of expertise. However, maybe I'm missing some nuances that an expert in that area could shed some light on.
My main concern with Cooper is that I really don't see much running ability after the catch. He's straight line fast and he can move a bit but this guy is, by no means, a WR that is going to break ankles after the catch. I don't see alot of wiggle at all. Alot of his post-catch yards were due to his speed (simply running away from guys) or exceptional downfield blocking by the other bama receivers. Any move he did make were not really sharp cuts but rather hesitation/burst moves that may not work as well at the NFL level.
So we have a guy that does not have the big advantage in size but is not small. Very fast. Good route runner. Good hands. But he's going to a team that was WORST IN THE LEAGUE in yards per pass last year ...
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/yards-per-pass-attempt/
... and doesn't appear to be an elite runner with the ball.
Look over his highlights (kind of hard not to find them) and let me know if I'm completely off base here. Don't get me wrong. I think the guy is a nice receiver but I see alot of people writing that they will go with Cooper as the can't miss and I think he's far from a lock ... especially going to a perennially bad offense.
At this point, I'm actually leaning Kevin White here as I see a guy that is 2 inches taller and plays more physical. He also plays for a better passing offense that has enough other weapons to ensure he won't be doubled constantly but not so many that it will severely hurt his opportunities. On top of that, he will win more jump balls than cooper and break more tackles.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
How many extra fantasy points to WRs actually get with moves they make after the catch? Demaryius Thomas is probably the best in the league at this and, not counting guys he just runs away from (since Cooper does that too) how many yards does he get in a season by juking defenders out? 60? 80?
You see it a lot in college, but in the NFL I just can't think of many situations where a WR makes a slick move with the ball in his hands and gains a lot of yards. That's probably why it seems so noteworthy when it does happen.
Keep in mind that the Bears just went from one of the most passing friendly coaches/coordinators in the league to one of the least passing friendly. Fox had no choice but to let Peyton sling it around but I find it very unlikely that he's going to let Cutler do the same in anywhere near the capacity that Trestman did. Fox hates turnovers and mistakes more than anything else and those are pretty much what define Jay Cutler. I think he is going to coddle and baby Cutler and take the ball out of his hands as much as possible.
mikmak8902
Footballguy
2 great points and exactly why I reached out to others that are seeing other things in the film. Also, found this:
http://nflbreakdowns.com/scouting-report-amari-cooper-2015/2/
I may be underestimating his route running a bit as I didn't see him alot live this past season and alot of the highlights don't show the beginning or breaks of his routes.
Chaka
Footballguy
It's tough to fault Cooper for route running and then say that you prefer a WR who is clearly inferior in his route running.
White is bigger but I am not sure he is more physical or fights harder for the ball. White may be faster, but what happened on one day in April while wearing underwear is not the final measure of such things IMO. And even if they were Cooper was better in the 3-cone and short shuttle drills which suggests he has more wiggle after the catch than White.
The bottom line is that athletically they are very close and have similar upside but Cooper has a much better pedigree. I like White and agree that his situation will help him more than Cooper's but those things are not static and when all is said and done I think you have to go with the safer pick and IMO that has to be Cooper by a pretty wide margin.
P.S. Plus how can you not like Carr's upside more than Cutler's? If for no other reason than age? Does anyone think that Chicago isn't going to be shopping for a new QB after the 2016 season at the latest (when most of his dead money hit will be mitigated)? At that point Carr/Cooper will be hitting their prime and White is going to be hamstrung for at least a year with a rookie (presuming they even get a competent one to begin with).
White is bigger but I am not sure he is more physical or fights harder for the ball. White may be faster, but what happened on one day in April while wearing underwear is not the final measure of such things IMO. And even if they were Cooper was better in the 3-cone and short shuttle drills which suggests he has more wiggle after the catch than White.
The bottom line is that athletically they are very close and have similar upside but Cooper has a much better pedigree. I like White and agree that his situation will help him more than Cooper's but those things are not static and when all is said and done I think you have to go with the safer pick and IMO that has to be Cooper by a pretty wide margin.
P.S. Plus how can you not like Carr's upside more than Cutler's? If for no other reason than age? Does anyone think that Chicago isn't going to be shopping for a new QB after the 2016 season at the latest (when most of his dead money hit will be mitigated)? At that point Carr/Cooper will be hitting their prime and White is going to be hamstrung for at least a year with a rookie (presuming they even get a competent one to begin with).
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I don't mean to speak for mikmak, but I think his point was that route running is supposed to be one of Cooper's strengths and the thing that separates him from other WRs but he's not seeing it when he watches the tape.
That's not to say that he is only interested in WRs with elite route running ability, just that it's much more damaging for Cooper to be an average route runner when most of his value comes from the perception that he's an elite route runner.
mikmak8902
Footballguy
I didn't mean to make it sound like I was FAULTING him for his route running. He's obviously a good route runner. People just say he's an elite route runner and I was questioning that as a reason why he's an obvious choice over White if his route running isn't necessarily elite. However, as I search for more film on him, I'm finding more evidence that he really may be a great route runner.
mikmak8902
Footballguy
Streetduck
Footballguy
I think it's a little too early to even give the Raiders the edge on QB. I am not a Cutler fan, it's just early to give Carr the pass IMO.
Chaka
Footballguy
I guess I wasn't clear enough either and for that I apologize. It seems that the comparison is between Cooper and White and my point is that I don't think route running ability between the two of them isn't even close. Cooper is by far the better route runner between the two and if you look at their combine numbers (and pro-days etc.) the only true advantage that Cooper can't/doesn't hold is that White is taller. So the question is do you want to choose height over proven route running ability? I'll take Cooper's route running ability,
Chaka
Footballguy
I don't disagree entirely but I am pretty confident in saying that White is going to be dealing with a new QB in 2017 regardless of what happens in Oakland and I am also confident, even if a tad bit less so, that Carr to Cooper will still be going strong in 2017.
So White is going to get his rookie adjustment period as the clear #2 WR (and possibly the #3 target behind Forte, and possibly even Bennett) and then have to adjust to likely a rookie QB (or even worse a Ryan Fitzpatrick/Josh McKown level journeyman) in 2017. OTOH Cooper is going to have growing pains as a rookie with a 2nd year QB but after that, if things work out with Carr, it looks like a legitimately dangerous hook-up for the next 8-10 years.
Yeah Cutler has the arm talent and has proven to be above average from a fantasy perspective from time to time but I'll roll the dice on Carr to Cooper over Cutler to White for the next decade (hell I'd make that bet for the next five years).
The other thing to keep in mind is the versatility between these 2 wr's. White lined up exclusively on the right side in college. Cooper was lining up everywhere. I imagine the Raiders will be spreading him around everywhere as well to exploit matchups.
The other thing that seems to get overlooked when comparing these 2 in dynasty leagues is that Cooper is also much younger than White and is already more polished as a WR than White is.
The other thing that seems to get overlooked when comparing these 2 in dynasty leagues is that Cooper is also much younger than White and is already more polished as a WR than White is.
buck naked
Footballguy
thunderguns
Footballguy
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Amari Cooper: 6/18/1994
Kevin White: 6/25/1992
Cooper is ~ 2 years younger….fact
Kevin White: 6/25/1992
Cooper is ~ 2 years younger….fact
Warpig
Footballguy
This article is totally speculative. Fox always makes his rookies work for it. His rookies have to pay their dues. It's all just coach speak. We all know good and well that White is the #2 WR at least. I like Cooper a lot (probably moreso than White), but this article is just silly and is reading way too deep into Cutlers comments.
Rookie_Whisperer
Footballguy
Kevin White born June 25, 1993. Cooper is one year younger. I see nothing to the contrary anywhere.
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georg013
Footballguy
A Raiders article dressed in Raiders colors. Of course Amari Cooper is the better prospect! Lol. Amari Cooper goes to a team where their best receiver last season was...give me a second...uh...yeah. No one! Reminds me of every episode of Naked and Afraid. After three days of "fasting", even lizards and rats start to look like filet mignon. Not saying Cooper is a rat but he is the best they have had in a while. White comes to a team that just moved Brandon Marshall and still has Alshon Jeffery (who is going to be top 3 this season). You can afford to make him earn it. Cooper, on the other hand, will be counted on from day 1 to be the focal point of the offense. And I like Cooper too. Finally, according to the Bears website, Kevin White is 21. Fact. Lol.
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Chaka
Footballguy
georg013
Footballguy
Now, let me say this. I think owners expecting White to come in and put up OBJ numbers year 1 are going to be largely disappointed. I own Kevin White and don't plan on starting him at all this season unless my team is riddled with injuries. Long term, I believe he is the real deal. But based on John Fox's history with rookies, I am not expecting 100 receptions, 1000 yards, 10 TDs out the gates.
Rookie_Whisperer
Footballguy
Based on the Raiders' history with Rookies and WRs in general, one could argue to never expect to see that from Cooper, at least while wearing a Raiders uniform.
Xue
Footballguy
https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?/topic/718727-dynasty-redraft-wr-kevin-white-bears/page-7#entry18047158Rookie_Whisperer said:
https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?/topic/718727-dynasty-redraft-wr-kevin-white-bears/page-7#entry18047172
https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?/topic/718727-dynasty-redraft-wr-kevin-white-bears/page-7#entry18047196
