BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
ya but they gotta shoot them first ...just in case they were armed ...then if they werent they can come up with a story about how they feared for there lives when the person went for there gun
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Another Killing Of Police Officers At the Hands of Criminals (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ditka Butkus
- Start date
G
General Tso
Guest
Here's a lovely story you won't see on CNN or MSNBC - black man with his 5 year old daughter in the car deliberately rams into a police cruiser "for all the black people".
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/man-claimed-he-rammed-st-louis-police-car-for-the/article_fed4cbc2-24d1-585c-a2d4-2ab5f853644d.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/man-claimed-he-rammed-st-louis-police-car-for-the/article_fed4cbc2-24d1-585c-a2d4-2ab5f853644d.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
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rockaction
Footballguy
RBM
Footballguy
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
Don't act like an idiot when a cop pulls you over. It's not that hard to avoid getting shot.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
It isn't legal. What's the problem?
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
define acting like an idiot...id like to know what NOT to do when pulled over so i dont get shot in the head while unarmed
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Why? You think cops should be allowed to go around shooting people and getting a free pass with any excuse?
jonessed
Footballguy
No, but clearly they shouldn't always wait until somebody shoots at them to return fire. That's moronic.
Jack White
Footballguy
jonessed
Footballguy
Or shoots at them.
Either way, it seems like a ridiculous hurdle for an officer to fire his weapon.
CBusAlex
Footballguy
"Oh ####, it turns out he was just reaching for his wallet, so that he could get his license like I asked him to. Perhaps my assumption that he was a dangerous 'thug' after no more than fifteen seconds was erroneously based on mostly irrelevant factors like his skin color, wardrobe, and speech patterns. Oh well, he's dead and I'm not, so #### 'em."
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Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
jonessed
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Yup. If you can't pull a trigger between the length of time it takes you to recognize a gun being pulled from under a seat and the time it takes for that gun to be raised, aimed and fired, you probably shouldn't be a cop. In fact you should probably be in some sort of assisted living facility.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Here in NO the NOPD has at its headquarters an eternal flame memorial with the names of all fallen officers going back in time etched into an obelisk. A few days ago some vandals destroyed the eternal flame, dousing the fire and blunting the apparatus. Sad.
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lod01
Footballguy
Can you understand 'act like a rational human'? This includes not getting out of the car and running, not taking off in the vehicle, etc.
Road Warriors
Footballguy
Not obeying every statement, regardless of its legality, in a timely, but not too quickly ( as that may be construed as an aggressive movement ), fashion, not acting annoyed with being pulled over for failing to signal a lane change forced by the speeding officer, without lights, tailgating you, etc.
whoknew
Footballguy
The fallacy of this position, of course, is that if you just behave and do whatever a cop tells you, nothing bad will happen to you. That's just obviously not necessarily true.
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
Step 1: Don't be an unproductive member of society with page long rap sheets and act respectful to the officer when you are pulled over.
That is what you meant to say.
jonessed
Footballguy
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
Cops are human susceptible to mistakes like all of us. But if you don't act like an idiot when you are pulled over or talking to an officer, the chance something happens to you is essentially zero. Thousands and thousands of traffic stops happen every day with no incident because people use some common sense.
G
General Tso
Guest
Fact is, not one single black person has been murdered by Police where they weren't either resisting arrest, fleeing, assaulting the cop, or holding a weapon and not following instructions right away.Cops are not running around indiscriminately murdering black people. Can the opposite be said?
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G
General Tso
Guest
There's your one instance. One. You've gone from that one instance out of millions of interactions to concluding that black people are indiscriminately being murdered by cops. Where I come from they call that extreme prejudice.what about the dude that followed the directions and got shot reaching for his wallet? The cop ORDERED HIM TO. He still got shot.
lod01
Footballguy
Poorly trained cop. That's a given but I would be far smarter that this guy. A simple, 'my wallet is in my back pocket, shall I get it out'. Sounds ridiculous but you don't know if you have a badly trained cop staring at you.
lod01
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
You seem not to get the basic point.There's your one instance. One. You've gone from that one instance out of millions of interactions to concluding that black people are indiscriminately being murdered by cops. Where I come from they call that extreme prejudice.
Here's some questions for you- do white people ever "resist arrest, flee, assault the cop, or hold a weapon and not follow instructions right away"? I assume you would agree that they do, all the time.
So then why are the victims of police killings so disproportionately black? Even if you claim that it's because black people commit crimes more often than white people per capita (which ignores the impacts of discriminatory policing, which is really the root of the problem), the body count is still out of proportion.
And here's another one- of the 58 shootings of unarmed victims by cops so far this year, why is that only 16 are white while 24 are black? Choose any basis of comparison you like- population numbers, crime rates, police shooting victims overall- and that number is still wildly out of proportion. Why?
RBM
Footballguy
Good oneAnyway, did he tell the officer his wallet is under the seat or did he just go for it knowing what a no-no that would be? We both know the answer.
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
lol you are trying to support your argument because of a difference of EIGHT people?You seem not to get the basic point.There's your one instance. One. You've gone from that one instance out of millions of interactions to concluding that black people are indiscriminately being murdered by cops. Where I come from they call that extreme prejudice.
Here's some questions for you- do white people ever "resist arrest, flee, assault the cop, or hold a weapon and not follow instructions right away"? I assume you would agree that they do, all the time.
So then why are the victims of police killings so disproportionately black? Even if you claim that it's because black people commit crimes more often than white people per capita (which ignores the impacts of discriminatory policing, which is really the root of the problem), the body count is still out of proportion.
And here's another one- of the 58 shootings of unarmed victims by cops so far this year, why is that only 16 are white while 24 are black? Choose any basis of comparison you like- population numbers, crime rates, police shooting victims overall- and that number is still wildly out of proportion. Why?
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Well, no, I'm trying to support my argument by showing that the actual ratio is vastly out of proportion with the expected ratio. The actual variance depends on what numbers you use to determine the expected ratio. Math is hard, huh?lol you are trying to support your argument because of a difference of EIGHT people?You seem not to get the basic point.There's your one instance. One. You've gone from that one instance out of millions of interactions to concluding that black people are indiscriminately being murdered by cops. Where I come from they call that extreme prejudice.
Here's some questions for you- do white people ever "resist arrest, flee, assault the cop, or hold a weapon and not follow instructions right away"? I assume you would agree that they do, all the time.
So then why are the victims of police killings so disproportionately black? Even if you claim that it's because black people commit crimes more often than white people per capita (which ignores the impacts of discriminatory policing, which is really the root of the problem), the body count is still out of proportion.
And here's another one- of the 58 shootings of unarmed victims by cops so far this year, why is that only 16 are white while 24 are black? Choose any basis of comparison you like- population numbers, crime rates, police shooting victims overall- and that number is still wildly out of proportion. Why?
Also that data is from seven months. If you don't think 58 shootings of unarmed people in seven months by people sworn to uphold the law and protect the population, and armed and authorized to use force to do so, isn't a huge problem, well then you and I just have vastly different opinions on what constitutes a problem.
And if you're wondering why there's only seven months' worth of data- the data I linked is from the Washington Post, which undertook the compilation because law enforcement consistently refuses to do so. I'd love to have a larger sample size, but hey, when someone hides something from the public you have to work with what you've got. And if you don't think that utter lack of accountability to the people they're supposed to be protecting and serving is a problem, you and I just have different opinions on what constitutes a problem.
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Donkey Derp
Footballguy
Well, no, I'm trying to support my argument by showing that the actual ratio is vastly out of proportion with the expected ratio. The actual variance depends on what numbers you use to determine the expected ratio. Math is hard, huh?lol you are trying to support your argument because of a difference of EIGHT people?You seem not to get the basic point.There's your one instance. One. You've gone from that one instance out of millions of interactions to concluding that black people are indiscriminately being murdered by cops. Where I come from they call that extreme prejudice.
Here's some questions for you- do white people ever "resist arrest, flee, assault the cop, or hold a weapon and not follow instructions right away"? I assume you would agree that they do, all the time.
So then why are the victims of police killings so disproportionately black? Even if you claim that it's because black people commit crimes more often than white people per capita (which ignores the impacts of discriminatory policing, which is really the root of the problem), the body count is still out of proportion.
And here's another one- of the 58 shootings of unarmed victims by cops so far this year, why is that only 16 are white while 24 are black? Choose any basis of comparison you like- population numbers, crime rates, police shooting victims overall- and that number is still wildly out of proportion. Why?
Also that data is from seven months. If you don't think 58 shootings of unarmed people in seven months by people sworn to uphold the law and protect the population, and armed and authorized to use force to do so, isn't a huge problem, well then you and I just have vastly different opinions on what constitutes a problem.
And if you're wondering why there's only seven months' worth of data- the data I linked is from the Washington Post, which undertook the compilation because law enforcement consistently refuses to do so. I'd love to have a larger sample size, but hey, when someone hides something from the public you have to work with what you've got. And if you don't think that utter lack of accountability to the people they're supposed to be protecting and serving is a problem, you and I just have different opinions on what constitutes a problem.
Real life is not a math problem.I recommend you take a break from constantly posting on Footballguys and read some of the descriptions in your own link. Here's a hint: even if a person doesn't possess a gun, he can still pose a threat to officers and the general population. I will let you try to figure out how and why.
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jonessed
Footballguy
Seems like some very bad decision-making on Victor's part.Donkey Derp said:Well, no, I'm trying to support my argument by showing that the actual ratio is vastly out of proportion with the expected ratio. The actual variance depends on what numbers you use to determine the expected ratio. Math is hard, huh?lol you are trying to support your argument because of a difference of EIGHT people?You seem not to get the basic point.There's your one instance. One. You've gone from that one instance out of millions of interactions to concluding that black people are indiscriminately being murdered by cops. Where I come from they call that extreme prejudice.
Here's some questions for you- do white people ever "resist arrest, flee, assault the cop, or hold a weapon and not follow instructions right away"? I assume you would agree that they do, all the time.
So then why are the victims of police killings so disproportionately black? Even if you claim that it's because black people commit crimes more often than white people per capita (which ignores the impacts of discriminatory policing, which is really the root of the problem), the body count is still out of proportion.
And here's another one- of the 58 shootings of unarmed victims by cops so far this year, why is that only 16 are white while 24 are black? Choose any basis of comparison you like- population numbers, crime rates, police shooting victims overall- and that number is still wildly out of proportion. Why?
Also that data is from seven months. If you don't think 58 shootings of unarmed people in seven months by people sworn to uphold the law and protect the population, and armed and authorized to use force to do so, isn't a huge problem, well then you and I just have vastly different opinions on what constitutes a problem.
And if you're wondering why there's only seven months' worth of data- the data I linked is from the Washington Post, which undertook the compilation because law enforcement consistently refuses to do so. I'd love to have a larger sample size, but hey, when someone hides something from the public you have to work with what you've got. And if you don't think that utter lack of accountability to the people they're supposed to be protecting and serving is a problem, you and I just have different opinions on what constitutes a problem.
Victor Emanuel Larosa
, an unarmed 23-year-old black man, was shot on July 2, 2015, in a yard in Jacksonville, Fla. Larosa struck a Jacksonville police officer with his vehicle and rammed a police cruiser during a drug sting. He fled on foot and reached for his waistband as he turned toward police.
But yeah, he didn't have a gun so he posed no threat to officers nor the general public.
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
Victor Emanuel Larosa
, an unarmed 23-year-old black man, was shot on July 2, 2015, in a yard in Jacksonville, Fla. Larosa struck a Jacksonville police officer with his vehicle and rammed a police cruiser during a drug sting. He fled on foot and reached for his waistband as he turned toward police.
Billy Joe Patrick
, an unarmed 29-year-old white man, was shot on April 26, 2015, in Bunch, Okla. Patrick was shot by an Oklahoma wildlife officer who he was allegedly trying to drown. The officer fought his way to the surface of the water and shot and killed Patrick.
"unarmed"
, an unarmed 23-year-old black man, was shot on July 2, 2015, in a yard in Jacksonville, Fla. Larosa struck a Jacksonville police officer with his vehicle and rammed a police cruiser during a drug sting. He fled on foot and reached for his waistband as he turned toward police.
Billy Joe Patrick
, an unarmed 29-year-old white man, was shot on April 26, 2015, in Bunch, Okla. Patrick was shot by an Oklahoma wildlife officer who he was allegedly trying to drown. The officer fought his way to the surface of the water and shot and killed Patrick.
"unarmed"TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Thanks for the advice and the nonsensical response.
I recommend you take a break from constantly posting on Footballguys and read some of the descriptions in your own link. Here's a hint: even if a person doesn't possess a gun, he can still pose a threat to officers and the general population. I will let you try to figure out how and why.
I'm aware that a person can pose a threat without possessing a gun. But that does absolutely nothing to explain the skewed ratio. The only possible explanation other than variance (a problem I admit but can't address because of law enforcement's refusal to cooperate with compiling this data, which really should tell you all you need to know anyway) is that black people without guns are perceived to "pose a threat" far more frequently than white people without guns are perceived to "pose a threat," no matter what you use as the baseline for the comparison.
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
You are right Tobias. We definitely have a police problem after reading all these descriptions about unarmed people being compliant and respectful towards police officers. All of these accounts of law abiding citizens in your link show how many people are senselessly murdered by bloodthirsty cops.
Oh wait. I read them all wrong. That would be ignoring phrases like "punched the officer in the face", "struggled with an officer", "struck a police officer with his vehicle", "acting erratically", "fought with a deputy", "threatened to attack", "physical altercation with two officers", "threatening people with a knife", "a murder suspect who had just illegally crossed into the United States from Canada, sprayed a chemical at U.S. Border Patrol agents who confronted him." etc etc etc etc etc
Oh wait. I read them all wrong. That would be ignoring phrases like "punched the officer in the face", "struggled with an officer", "struck a police officer with his vehicle", "acting erratically", "fought with a deputy", "threatened to attack", "physical altercation with two officers", "threatening people with a knife", "a murder suspect who had just illegally crossed into the United States from Canada, sprayed a chemical at U.S. Border Patrol agents who confronted him." etc etc etc etc etc
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
The argument I'm making here seems to have totally escaped you (hint- it has absolutely nothing to do with whether some or most or all of the shooting victims behaved in ways that warranted a shooting).
I'll take your advice and move on unless someone who does grasp it wants to discuss it further.
Donkey Derp
Footballguy
Your opinion is ridiculous. If you replace 99% of the descriptions in YOUR link, it doesn't matter what background the person shot comes from. There isn't a specific mathematical formula officers abide by when they have a split second to use deadly force or not.Thanks for the advice and the nonsensical response.
I recommend you take a break from constantly posting on Footballguys and read some of the descriptions in your own link. Here's a hint: even if a person doesn't possess a gun, he can still pose a threat to officers and the general population. I will let you try to figure out how and why.
I'm aware that a person can pose a threat without possessing a gun. But that does absolutely nothing to explain the skewed ratio. The only possible explanation other than variance (a problem I admit but can't address because of law enforcement's refusal to cooperate with compiling this data, which really should tell you all you need to know anyway) is that black people without guns are perceived to "pose a threat" far more frequently than white people without guns are perceived to "pose a threat," no matter what you use as the baseline for the comparison.
cheese
Footballguy
No it can't. You convinced me the thugs murdering cops are acting worse than our cops. You might want to think about raising your standards.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
When I am stopped I am unfailingly polite, and I always ask permission for any movement I do, or any reach I might make. Even when I decline voluntary cooperation, which is my right and which I have done, I do so politely. I do not try to put the officer in their place, tell them how to do their job, or try to communicate that I know my rights better than do they. The street is not a place for arguing ones rights, we have courts for that.
I recently was stopped in Grand County Colorado. They are notorious up there for stopping traffic. I was well aware of my speed, being well aware of their propensities.
Cop: Do you know how fast you were going?
Me: Good afternoon Officer. Yes I do.
Cop: Do you know what the speed limit is here?
Me: Yes I do.
Cop: why were you speeding then?
Me: I am certain that I was not.
Cop: Are you calling me a liar?
Me: I am saying that I am certain that I was not exceeding the posted speed limit, nothing more.
Cop: I am going to need to see your license and registration.
Me: Certainly. My driver's license is in my wallet, in my back pocket, may I reach for that now?
Cop: Right now.
Me: Here you go Officer.
Me: My registration is in my glove compartment, may I reach for that now?
Cop: Why are you asking? Is there a reason I should be nervous about you reaching in there?
Me: No reason, I just do not want any misunderstandings.
Cop: Get out of the truck.
Me: Yes Sir.
Cop: Turn and face the truck.
Me: Yes sir.
Cop: I am handcuffing you for officer safety. You are not under arrest at this time. Do you understand?
Me: I understand the words you are saying, yes sir.
Cop: Please step around to the passenger side of the vehicle. (I did)
Cop: I am going to search in your glove compartment now for your registration. Hey, the door is locked.
Me: And so is the glove box.
Cop: Where are your keys?
Me: In my right front pants pocket.
Cop: Give them to me.
Me: I cannot, I am handcuffed.
Cop: Are you going to be a problem?
Me: No Officer.
Cop: I'll just give you a pat down and grab your keys.
Me: You have removed me from my vehicle, handcuffed me, moved me from one spot to another, and now you are searching me, not for officer safety but to obtain my keys, are you quite certain I am not under arrest yet?
Cop: Are you some kind of lawyer?
Me: I don't see how that would be relevant to your business right now.
(Cop grabs my keys, he does not do a protective pat down of the rest of my clothing)
Cop: I'll just see about that registration now.
Me: To be clear I have not consented to you searching my vehicle.
(second cop pulls up) (first cop opens the door but can't find the key to the glove box on my key ring. Its in the center counsel along with the key to my gas cap.)
Cop to second cop: I think he has some sort of "Hide" in his glove box, it won't open.
2nd Cop to me: You hiding drugs in there?
Me: I'm not hiding anything. I have not given any permission to search my vehicle. The reason the glove box will not open is that he is using the wrong key. The key to my glove box is not on that key ring.
1st Cop: Then why the hell didn't you say that before?
Me: You did not ask and you do not have my permission to search my vehicle.
Both Cops: We have a right to see your vehicle registration.
Me: And I would be happy to get it out for you if I were not cuffed.
2nd Cop: Time to stop with the games, where is the ####### key?
Me: its in the center counsel on the driver's side on a key ring with two other keys.
2nd Cop: Mind if I get your registration?
Me: if you are asking my permission I do mind. I do not give my permission, not while being detained and handcuffed.
2nd Cop (after finding the registration) There are no drugs or guns in here!
Me: Of course not.
1st Cop: Did you see any in his center counsel?
Me: Officer, Has this turned into a search for drugs, I thought I was stopped for allegedly speeding.
1st Cop: You sit down here in my unit (he called it a unit). ( I complied)
1st Cop: No, feet all the way in, I am just going to shut the door. (I complied)
2nd Cop: I'm sure you won't mind if we search your truck.
Me: I mind very much, you do not have my permission.
2nd Cop: Well we are just going to finish what we started.
Me: I never gave you permission to start in the first place.
1st Cop: We can just call in a dog. He will sniff out whatever you are hiding.
(No response from me)
2nd Cop: #######, do you want us to call in a K-9?
Me: You go ahead and follow your procedures to the best of your understanding and ability.
1st Cop: You will be here a long time, it might take an hour. Why not make it easy on yourself?
Me: Ease went out the window some time ago. You gentlemen go right on ahead and do whatever it is you believe in good faith you have the right to do, understanding that I do not consent to any searches, and that I am now very much under arrest given your actions.
1st Cop: You are an attorney, aren't you?
Me: I do not see how that is relevant.
(Cops huddle up) They talk over their radio. 20 minutes later their Chief pulls up, this is now maybe 40 minutes from the first stop. Their Chief recognizes me. We attended an IACP conference together where he heard me lecture. We had dinner together at that conference along with 6 others. We also met at a party at the home of a prominent local citizen some few weeks before.
Chief: What did these jackasses do?
Me: They treated me like they do any other motorist, at least that is what I have heard from friends and family who live up here.
(Chief huddles with his guys.)
Chief: We apologize for the inconvenience. You are free to go.
Me: (In loud voice shouting over to my brother and a friend, both members of that business community and who were parked across the street watching the whole thing) I'm free to go.
That Chief is now arranging for his officers to attend in service training provided by the State Patrol and the Department for which I work. they need it.
I recently was stopped in Grand County Colorado. They are notorious up there for stopping traffic. I was well aware of my speed, being well aware of their propensities.
Cop: Do you know how fast you were going?
Me: Good afternoon Officer. Yes I do.
Cop: Do you know what the speed limit is here?
Me: Yes I do.
Cop: why were you speeding then?
Me: I am certain that I was not.
Cop: Are you calling me a liar?
Me: I am saying that I am certain that I was not exceeding the posted speed limit, nothing more.
Cop: I am going to need to see your license and registration.
Me: Certainly. My driver's license is in my wallet, in my back pocket, may I reach for that now?
Cop: Right now.
Me: Here you go Officer.
Me: My registration is in my glove compartment, may I reach for that now?
Cop: Why are you asking? Is there a reason I should be nervous about you reaching in there?
Me: No reason, I just do not want any misunderstandings.
Cop: Get out of the truck.
Me: Yes Sir.
Cop: Turn and face the truck.
Me: Yes sir.
Cop: I am handcuffing you for officer safety. You are not under arrest at this time. Do you understand?
Me: I understand the words you are saying, yes sir.
Cop: Please step around to the passenger side of the vehicle. (I did)
Cop: I am going to search in your glove compartment now for your registration. Hey, the door is locked.
Me: And so is the glove box.
Cop: Where are your keys?
Me: In my right front pants pocket.
Cop: Give them to me.
Me: I cannot, I am handcuffed.
Cop: Are you going to be a problem?
Me: No Officer.
Cop: I'll just give you a pat down and grab your keys.
Me: You have removed me from my vehicle, handcuffed me, moved me from one spot to another, and now you are searching me, not for officer safety but to obtain my keys, are you quite certain I am not under arrest yet?
Cop: Are you some kind of lawyer?
Me: I don't see how that would be relevant to your business right now.
(Cop grabs my keys, he does not do a protective pat down of the rest of my clothing)
Cop: I'll just see about that registration now.
Me: To be clear I have not consented to you searching my vehicle.
(second cop pulls up) (first cop opens the door but can't find the key to the glove box on my key ring. Its in the center counsel along with the key to my gas cap.)
Cop to second cop: I think he has some sort of "Hide" in his glove box, it won't open.
2nd Cop to me: You hiding drugs in there?
Me: I'm not hiding anything. I have not given any permission to search my vehicle. The reason the glove box will not open is that he is using the wrong key. The key to my glove box is not on that key ring.
1st Cop: Then why the hell didn't you say that before?
Me: You did not ask and you do not have my permission to search my vehicle.
Both Cops: We have a right to see your vehicle registration.
Me: And I would be happy to get it out for you if I were not cuffed.
2nd Cop: Time to stop with the games, where is the ####### key?
Me: its in the center counsel on the driver's side on a key ring with two other keys.
2nd Cop: Mind if I get your registration?
Me: if you are asking my permission I do mind. I do not give my permission, not while being detained and handcuffed.
2nd Cop (after finding the registration) There are no drugs or guns in here!
Me: Of course not.
1st Cop: Did you see any in his center counsel?
Me: Officer, Has this turned into a search for drugs, I thought I was stopped for allegedly speeding.
1st Cop: You sit down here in my unit (he called it a unit). ( I complied)
1st Cop: No, feet all the way in, I am just going to shut the door. (I complied)
2nd Cop: I'm sure you won't mind if we search your truck.
Me: I mind very much, you do not have my permission.
2nd Cop: Well we are just going to finish what we started.
Me: I never gave you permission to start in the first place.
1st Cop: We can just call in a dog. He will sniff out whatever you are hiding.
(No response from me)
2nd Cop: #######, do you want us to call in a K-9?
Me: You go ahead and follow your procedures to the best of your understanding and ability.
1st Cop: You will be here a long time, it might take an hour. Why not make it easy on yourself?
Me: Ease went out the window some time ago. You gentlemen go right on ahead and do whatever it is you believe in good faith you have the right to do, understanding that I do not consent to any searches, and that I am now very much under arrest given your actions.
1st Cop: You are an attorney, aren't you?
Me: I do not see how that is relevant.
(Cops huddle up) They talk over their radio. 20 minutes later their Chief pulls up, this is now maybe 40 minutes from the first stop. Their Chief recognizes me. We attended an IACP conference together where he heard me lecture. We had dinner together at that conference along with 6 others. We also met at a party at the home of a prominent local citizen some few weeks before.
Chief: What did these jackasses do?
Me: They treated me like they do any other motorist, at least that is what I have heard from friends and family who live up here.
(Chief huddles with his guys.)
Chief: We apologize for the inconvenience. You are free to go.
Me: (In loud voice shouting over to my brother and a friend, both members of that business community and who were parked across the street watching the whole thing) I'm free to go.
That Chief is now arranging for his officers to attend in service training provided by the State Patrol and the Department for which I work. they need it.
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Donkey Derp
Footballguy
Ookie Pringle
Footballguy
Tobias not looking good once again.
G
General Tso
Guest
That's just it Tobias, black people are not being killed by police at a disproportionate rate. It's a liberal fallacy that just isn't born out in any of the numbers. Let's use your own data, the Washington Post info of police killings in 2015. There have been 141 blacks killed by police in 2015 out of a total of 570. That is 25%. According to the FBI's latest arrest statistics (2013) blacks accounted for 28% of all arrests. The numbers are right where you'd expect them to be.I guess you could make an argument that when it comes to the killing of unarmed blacks the numbers are a bit off, but let's look at that further. Of the 58 police killings in 2015 of unarmed civilians, 24 were black. That is 41%. But we are dealing with obvious small sample size issues here. But more importantly, just because someone is unarmed doesn't mean they are shot unjustly. An altercation may have been going on. The person may not have followed directions and made a threatening movement. Each of these cases needs to be examined individually before any conclusions can be drawn.You seem not to get the basic point.There's your one instance. One. You've gone from that one instance out of millions of interactions to concluding that black people are indiscriminately being murdered by cops. Where I come from they call that extreme prejudice.
Here's some questions for you- do white people ever "resist arrest, flee, assault the cop, or hold a weapon and not follow instructions right away"? I assume you would agree that they do, all the time.
So then why are the victims of police killings so disproportionately black? Even if you claim that it's because black people commit crimes more often than white people per capita (which ignores the impacts of discriminatory policing, which is really the root of the problem), the body count is still out of proportion.
And here's another one- of the 58 shootings of unarmed victims by cops so far this year, why is that only 16 are white while 24 are black? Choose any basis of comparison you like- population numbers, crime rates, police shooting victims overall- and that number is still wildly out of proportion. Why?
I read all 58 of those cases. Clearly there are the high profile cases involving blacks being killed unjustly that we know about it - Walter Scott and Samuel Dubose. But did you also know about the three white cases that are equally suspicious at this point (Johnny Ray Anderson, Derek Cruice, and David Kassick)? Probably not. Why not? Because it doesn't fit the liberal narrative that continues to get rammed down our throats.
Sorry, but when it comes to police use of deadly force the numbers do not show racism. They just don't. And one of the best studies done recently (University of Washington) actually shows that police are less inclined to fire their weapon at black people.
Ironically the only place you'll see clear racism in the crime numbers is in the huge disparity between black on white crime versus white on black. A black is 27 times more likely to attack a white than the other way around. But we don't want to talk about that now do we. http://www.amren.com/news/2015/07/new-doj-statistics-on-race-and-violent-crime/
I am all for racial justice, but the focus here is on he wrong area. We need to be looking into why the crime rates are so high in the black communities, and we need to be honest with the answers that come out of that. It's a cop out (no pun intended) to blame it all on racist police. The problems are much more insidious.
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Donkey Derp
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Literally nobody does the bolded.That's just it Tobias, black people are not being killed by police at a disproportionate rate. It's a liberal fallacy that just isn't born out in any of the numbers. Let's use your own data, the Washington Post info of police killings in 2015. There have been 141 blacks killed by police in 2015 out of a total of 570. That is 25%. According to the FBI's latest arrest statistics (2013) blacks accounted for 28% of all arrests. The numbers are right where you'd expect them to be.I guess you could make an argument that when it comes to the killing of unarmed blacks the numbers are a bit off, but let's look at that further. Of the 58 police killings in 2015 of unarmed civilians, 24 were black. That is 41%. But we are dealing with obvious small sample size issues here. But more importantly, just because someone is unarmed doesn't mean they are shot unjustly. An altercation may have been going on. The person may not have followed directions and made a threatening movement. Each of these cases needs to be examined individually before any conclusions can be drawn.You seem not to get the basic point.There's your one instance. One. You've gone from that one instance out of millions of interactions to concluding that black people are indiscriminately being murdered by cops. Where I come from they call that extreme prejudice.
Here's some questions for you- do white people ever "resist arrest, flee, assault the cop, or hold a weapon and not follow instructions right away"? I assume you would agree that they do, all the time.
So then why are the victims of police killings so disproportionately black? Even if you claim that it's because black people commit crimes more often than white people per capita (which ignores the impacts of discriminatory policing, which is really the root of the problem), the body count is still out of proportion.
And here's another one- of the 58 shootings of unarmed victims by cops so far this year, why is that only 16 are white while 24 are black? Choose any basis of comparison you like- population numbers, crime rates, police shooting victims overall- and that number is still wildly out of proportion. Why?
I read all 58 of those cases. Clearly there are the high profile cases involving blacks being killed unjustly that we know about it - Walter Scott and Samuel Dubose. But did you also know about the three white cases that are equally suspicious at this point (Johnny Ray Anderson, Derek Cruice, and David Kassick)? Probably not. Why not? Because it doesn't fit the liberal narrative that continues to get rammed down our throats.
Sorry, but when it comes to police use of deadly force the numbers do not show racism. They just don't. And one of the best studies done recently (University of Washington) actually shows that police are less inclined to fire their weapon at black people.
Ironically the only place you'll see clear racism in the crime numbers is in the huge disparity between black on white crime versus white on black. A black is 27 times more likely to attack a white than the other way around. But we don't want to talk about that now do we. http://www.amren.com/news/2015/07/new-doj-statistics-on-race-and-violent-crime/
I am all for racial justice, but the focus here is on he wrong area. We need to be looking into why the crime rates are so high in the black communities, and we need to be honest with the answers that come out of that. It's a cop out (no pun intended) to blame it all on racist police. The problems are much more insidious.
The rest of your post makes some good arguments and some flawed ones. For example, you can't simply ignore the disproportionate number of shootings of unarmed black people by citing the facts with respect to each one, because that ignores the possibility (likelihood?) that the reason the data is so out of whack is that far more white people than black people who behaved similarly did not end up dead.
There's other stuff that we can get into in your post (i.e. that the arrest numbers don't actually reflect the crime rate numbers because of discriminatory policing, intentional or not). But we've done all that stuff before many times, no reason to rehash it.
And yeah, there's a small sample size problem with the numbers on killings of unarmed victims, which I noted up front. I wish that wasn't the case- not because I want to have more data so I can make my argument, but because it's disgraceful that the police have been hiding that data from the public they're supposed to serve for decades. Whether you think there's a racial problem here or not I assume most people can agree about that.
