Antifa: Left Wing Militants on the Rise (1 Viewer)

[Ilov80s]

Right.  "AntiFa" isn't the same group that arose to oppose the Nazis in Germany in the 1930s anymore.

We could be entering a really awesome time where we are in danger of terrorist attacks from:

- Islamic extremists

- NAZIs

- Left Wing Anarchists

- Right Wing Anti-Federalists/Constitutionalists 

 

[Henry Ford]

Except that the Cornerstone Speech made it clear that slavery/the inferiority of black people was a core tenet of the Confederacy.  And with modern day white supremacists, bigotry and a push to remove minorities from the United States are are core belief we can fairly attribute to them (and certainly to Spencer).  @msommer said he would be OK with people punching antifa members, not some subgroup with some sort of well-established core belief that makes them punch-worthy.

This seems like a really important hill to die on for you, so I'm just going to let you do that.

 

[Ilov80s]

Both sides are equally bad, amitie?

One side wants to eliminate far-right militant groups, and the other side wants to eliminate Jews.

Antifa also has anarchists that want to destroy our government and entire economic way of life. 

 

[Uwe Blab]

Why?  Unlike Nazi-ism there's nothing inherently hateful or repugnant about their beliefs.  In fact their core belief seems pretty solid to me.  Aren't most of us anti-facism?  I certainly hope so.

The main gripes I've read against them has certainly been their methods (violence, vandalism).  Their big-tent has tended to include some the unsavory folks from Occupy movements and going back to the WTO protests.  I think its more of the anticipation of further violent discourse, IMO.

 

[Henry Ford]

Antifa also anarchists that want to destroy our government and entire economic way of life. 

Right.  It's become something of a core belief that capitalism is a form of fascism, which is why they're always breaking things at summits of the WTO, GATT, G7, G8, G20, etc.

 

[TobiasFunke]

This seems like a really important hill to die on for you, so I'm just going to let you do that.

My suspicion is that there's a false equivalence going on here, a feeling that we have to condemn something on the "other side" just as forcefully as we condemn white supremacists out of some misguided sense of fairness or moderation. I'm trying to learn more to see if that's really the case or if these people actually have something more worthy of this demonization than some broken windows and a well-deserved fist applied to Richard Spencer's jaw. I honestly don't know much about them, and I'm willing to listen to the argument. I'm no radical, if these people deserve to be classified as terrorists and punched in the face any time they appear in public then I'm on board with that, but I'd like to be convinced of it first.

 

[Skoo]

All I'm all for criticizing Antifa, but it seems odd to do so shortly after a violent outburst by white nationalists having nothing to do with Antifa.

Deflect Deflect Deflect

"There were 9 murders in Chicago this weekend, how come no one is talking about THAT?!?"

 

[msommer]

Why?  Unlike Nazi-ism there's nothing inherently hateful or repugnant about their beliefs.  In fact their core belief seems pretty solid to me.  Aren't most of us anti-facism?  I certainly hope so.

It's the violence

 

[Ilov80s]

My suspicion is that there's a false equivalence going on here, a feeling that we have to condemn something on the "other side" just as forcefully as we condemn as we condemn white supremacists out of some misguided sense of fairness or moderation. I'm trying to learn more to see if that's really the case or if these people actually have something more worthy of this demonization than some broken windows and a well-deserved fist applied to Richard Spencer's jaw. I honestly don't know much about them, and I'm willing to listen to the argument. I'm no radical, if these people deserve to be classified as terrorists and punched in the face any time they appear in public, but I'd like to be convinced of it first.

The extreme ends of Antfa and the NAZIs, alt right, Trumpers all believe the same thing: a group of elites and the media control the country and are destroying it. The NAZIs thing that group are the Jews. Alt right think it's immigrants/Muslims/minorities. The Trumpers think it's liberals. The extreme Antfia segments think it is big business. 

 

[msommer]

Antifa is not equivalent to NAZI. Antifa is a broad term for a lot of different left groups. Many of them are just anti-fascist or anti-racist. I don't think punching a person because they are in BLM should be allowed. As a matter of fact, it's the exact type of thinking that makes us hate KKK members and NAZIs. There are a lot of anarchists in there as well and yeah, f them. 

Ok, so violent antifa idiots should be punchable

 

[Henry Ford]

My suspicion is that there's a false equivalence going on here, a feeling that we have to condemn something on the "other side" just as forcefully as we condemn as we condemn white supremacists out of some misguided sense of fairness or moderation. I'm trying to learn more to see if that's really the case or if these people actually have something more worthy of this demonization than some broken windows and a well-deserved fist applied to Richard Spencer's jaw. I honestly don't know much about them, and I'm willing to listen to the argument. I'm no radical, if these people deserve to be classified as terrorists and punched in the face any time they appear in public, but I'd like to be convinced of it first.

If you don't know much about them, there's a saying my mother used to have about why we have two ears.  

Do you find I often condemn something on "the other side" just as vehemently just to be fair or moderate?

AntiFa is a group of militant left-wing loosely associate organizations that are increasingly dangerous specifically because they increasingly define "fascism" as anything they don't like.  That's a problem because they feel justified in using any means necessary - particularly violent means - to oppose these things.

Now, they're not killing people or blowing things up.  In this country.  But it's not that far off.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Ok, so violent antifa idiots should be punchable

I'm good with this.  If you know they're being violent or destructive, demonize away. Call a subgroup of the organization that regularly uses violence and threats of violence terrorists. Record a video punching a violent guy in the jaw and set it to music like people did with Spencer. But the ideology alone doesn't seem damning to me the way white supremacy is damning.

 

[jonessed]

All I'm all for criticizing Antifa, but it seems odd to do so shortly after a violent outburst by white nationalists having nothing to do with Antifa.

Antifa was at that rally and was involved in the violence.  They were not, obviously, involved in the guy driving his car into the crowd, but they were involved in the preceding violence.  It's what they do.  It's why they are there.

The violence at every one of these events involves Antifa.

The objective of these hate groups is to push otherwise reasonable people into feeling they have no other option but to support violence.

From the looks of these threads they are succeeding.

 

[Ilov80s]

All I'm all for criticizing Antifa, but it seems odd to do so shortly after a violent outburst by white nationalists having nothing to do with Antifa.

There was also the 3 percenter that tried to set off another Oklahoma bombing. Someone burned a mosque. Antifa is not equivalent to NAZIs or white nationalists. However, they do harbor some sketchy groups and they do meet violence with violence. I think now is a very good time to take close looks at all the extremist groups in the country, figure out how to dial down the tone and uncover any potential larger danger. 

 

[msommer]

They are anarchists more than anything else. I wouldn't label them part of the left any more than Westboro Baptist Church should be labeled part of the right.

And anarchy, that's probably not a nice thing to implement (likely it would fail anyway after a Jacobinesque period)

 

[msommer]

We could be entering a really awesome time where we are in danger of terrorist attacks from:

- Islamic extremists

- NAZIs

- Left Wing Anarchists

- Right Wing Anti-Federalists/Constitutionalists 

"Could be"?

 

[TobiasFunke]

If you don't know much about them, there's a saying my mother used to have about why we have two ears.  

Do you find I often condemn something on "the other side" just as vehemently just to be fair or moderate?

AntiFa is a group of militant left-wing loosely associate organizations that are increasingly dangerous specifically because they increasingly define "fascism" as anything they don't like.  That's a problem because they feel justified in using any means necessary - particularly violent means - to oppose these things.

Now, they're not killing people or blowing things up.  In this country.  But it's not that far off.

And that's why I asked questions rather than asserting a definitive position. My curiosity was genuine, and my follow-up questions were intended to test the analogies people were drawing. I appreciate the answers.

 

[Ilov80s]

"Could be"?

Trying to be optimistic about the lefty anarchists

 

[Skoo]

Uggh, this is like talking about Hillary and Uranium in regards to Trump-Russia collusion.

"Hey, stop giving us a hard time! Why aren't you mad at THESE people instead!"

So transparent.

 

[Henry Ford]

I'm good with this.  If you know they're being violent or destructive, demonize away. Call a subgroup of the organization that regularly uses violence and threats of violence terrorists. Record a video punching a violent guy in the jaw and set it to music like people did with Spencer. But the ideology alone doesn't seem damning to me the way white supremacy is damning.

One of AntiFa's core principles - and the reason they use the same name as the group from the 30s - is that the use of violence and confrontation furthers their cause(s). 

 

[TobiasFunke]

Antifa was at that rally and was involved in the violence.  They were not, obviously, involved in the guy driving his car into the crowd.

The violence at every one of these events involves Antifa.

The objective of these hate groups is to push otherwise reasonable people into feeling they have no other option but to support violence.

From the looks of these threads they are succeeding.

This goes to my first question- is there evidence of antifa instigating violence in Charlottesville? There may well be; I personally haven't seen it but that might just be a product of who I talk to and read and follow on twitter. I've also read the story behind the most popular image of violence aimed at Charlottesville white supremacists and it turns out there's more to it than the picture initially conveys.

 

[msommer]

Uggh, this is like talking about Hillary and Uranium in regards to Trump-Russia collusion.

"Hey, stop giving us a hard time! Why aren't you mad at THESE people instead!"

So transparent.

Some of us can be mad at multiple violent groups at the same time.

 

[Henry Ford]

Uggh, this is like talking about Hillary and Uranium in regards to Trump-Russia collusion.

"Hey, stop giving us a hard time! Why aren't you mad at THESE people instead!"

So transparent.

I'm not as upset with AntiFa as I am with the other organizations.  But that's because I don't hate everything about their causes, not because they're not raging bags of ####s who should find a politically based outlet for their rage instead of a tantrum-based one.

 

[Skoo]

I'm not as upset with AntiFa as I am with the other organizations.  But that's because I don't hate everything about their causes, not because they're not raging bags of ####s who should find a politically based outlet for their rage instead of a tantrum-based one.

My point isn't that Antifa is good or bad.

My point is the only reason we're even talking about Antifa is because the right needs a false equivalency for what happened this weekend. They are rightly embarrassed that they are lumped in with the KKK and Neo-Nazis, so pointing out a violent leftist group makes them feel better.

Again, so transparent.

 

[msommer]

My point isn't that Antifa is good or bad.

My point is the only reason we're even talking about Antifa is because the right needs a false equivalency for what happened this weekend. They are rightly embarrassed that they are lumped in with the KKK and Neo-Nazis, so pointing out a violent leftist group makes them feel better.

Again, so transparent.

IMHO Antifa pointed themselves out. FYI, the article in the OP is from BBC

 

[jonessed]

This goes to my first question- is there evidence of antifa instigating violence in Charlottesville? There may well be; I personally haven't seen it but that might just be a product of who I talk to and read and follow on twitter. I've also read the story behind the most popular image of violence aimed at Charlottesville white supremacists and it turns out there's more to it than the picture initially conveys.

Antifa was there and violence is one of their core principles.  It's why they attend.

Every rally in CA with arrests has included Antifa members.  The arrests in the recent Sacramento rally was comprised of almost entirely Antifa.

In CA, the arrests at these events is largely done through video evidence after-the-fact.  If Charlottesville is similar we won't get a full picture of the violence for at least a few weeks (and possibly months).

 

[squistion]

Antifa was there and violence is one of their core principles.  It's why they attend.

Every rally in CA with arrests has included Antifa members.  The arrests in the recent Sacramento rally was comprised of almost entirely Antifa.

In CA, the arrests at these events is largely done through video evidence after-the-fact.  If Charlottesville is similar we won't get a full picture of the violence for at least a few weeks (and possibly months).

It certainly doesn't appear to be.

 

[jonessed]

My point isn't that Antifa is good or bad.

My point is the only reason we're even talking about Antifa is because the right needs a false equivalency for what happened this weekend. They are rightly embarrassed that they are lumped in with the KKK and Neo-Nazis, so pointing out a violent leftist group makes them feel better.

Again, so transparent.

Horse####.  Antifa attends these rallies to incite violence.  It's not like we are discussing completely different events.  The violence at these events involves Antifa.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Antifa was there and violence is one of their core principles.  It's why they attend.

Every rally in CA with arrests has included Antifa members.  The arrests in the recent Sacramento rally was comprised of almost entirely Antifa.

In CA, the arrests at these events is largely done through video evidence after-the-fact.  If Charlottesville is similar we won't get a full picture of the violence for at least a few weeks (and possibly months).

OK, thanks. So no evidence as yet?  I ask because there's already evidence of violence on the part of the white supremacists so obviously there's plenty of raw footage to be had.

 

[Josie Maran]

Horse####.  Antifa attends these rallies to incite violence.  It's not like we are discussing completely different events.  The violence at these events involves Antifa.

Against Nazis.

 

[jonessed]

It certainly doesn't appear to be.

What are you babbling about?  How would you even know what video evidence the police have and how they plan on using it?

 

[squistion]

6 minutes ago, jonessed said:

Antifa was there and violence is one of their core principles.  It's why they attend.

Every rally in CA with arrests has included Antifa members.  The arrests in the recent Sacramento rally was comprised of almost entirely Antifa.

In CA, the arrests at these events is largely done through video evidence after-the-fact.  If Charlottesville is similar we won't get a full picture of the violence for at least a few weeks (and possibly months).

OK, thanks. So no evidence as yet?  I ask because there's already evidence of violence on the part of the white supremacists so obviously there's plenty of raw footage to be had.

 

[jonessed]

Against Nazis.

And?  Violent political movements are violent political movements.  In this country people have the right to assemble and protest.  That right does not require you to like what they are protesting for.

If you support putting down protests through violence you are more unAmerican than these Nazis.

 

[Josie Maran]

And?  Violent political movements are violent political movements.  In this country people have the right to assemble and protest.  That right does not require you to like what they are protesting for.

If you support putting down protests through violence you are more unAmerican than these Nazis.

Disagree.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

That's a pretty broad statement.  Take a look at the International Workers Association (IWA).  I doubt you'll hear them say they want no laws.  They want just laws and a just organization built through democratic management of the means of production and levers of power.

I'm not an anarchist philosophy scholar by any means, but there are plenty of books on the topic.

What a complete white-wash of communist goals and methods that is.

 

[Uwe Blab]

Disagree.

While I doooo love your commitment to slugging Nazis in their Hitler-stached moufs, Antifa has also been the main players in shutting down speakers at colleges by any means solely because they don't like their point of view.  Certainly not a fan of that clap-trap.

 

[jonessed]

OK, thanks. So no evidence as yet?  I ask because there's already evidence of violence on the part of the white supremacists so obviously there's plenty of raw footage to be had.

There are videos of protestors on both sides engaging in violence.  As to who they are and who they are affiliated with that will take time for the police to sort out.

I believe the only person identified so far was the driver.

 

[squistion]

What are you babbling about?  How would you even know what video evidence the police have and how they plan on using it?

In the era that everyone has a cellphone with video filming capability, I think we would have already seen on YouTube if Antifa was causing the extensive violence that you are implying it did in Charlottesville. What we saw in California what not after-the-fact video, it was posted quite often minutes after it happened or was captured on a live feed (I saw the violence of the first Berkeley protests/riots in real time which I posted on in a Berkeley thread). I doubt the police have much more footage than what we have already seen.

 

[msommer]

While I doooo love your commitment to slugging Nazis in their Hitler-stached moufs, Antifa has also been the main players in shutting down speakers at colleges by any means solely because they don't like their point of view.  Certainly not a fan of that clap-trap.

They also like mixing it up at G7/8/20 meetings

 

[jonessed]

In the era that everyone has a cellphone with video filming capability, I think we would have already seen on YouTube if Antifa was causing the extensive violence that you are implying it did in Charlottesville. What we saw in California what not after-the-fact video, it was posted quite often minutes after it happened or was captured on a live feed (I saw the violence of the first Berkeley protests/riots in real time which I posted on in a Berkeley thread). I doubt the police have much more footage than what we have already seen.

 

And you sorted through all of the available footage, identified the people involved, conducted interviews, and are ready to start making arrests.  Congratulations on your due diligence.

 

[Josie Maran]

While I doooo love your commitment to slugging Nazis in their Hitler-stached moufs, Antifa has also been the main players in shutting down speakers at colleges by any means solely because they don't like their point of view.  Certainly not a fan of that clap-trap.

Yes, I'm very pro-violence against Nazis and the KKK, so I prefer to just look the other way on the campus crap.

 

[dschuler]

Aljazeera article that discusses both groups

Some notable quotes: 

"For Antifa, direct confrontation is a key strategy intended to shut down far-right demonstrations and block platforms for hate speech."

"To be honest, some of the people in that group are really good, passionate people, but the rest of them are just kids who cover their faces up and run around burning stuff down."

 

[Ilov80s]

Against Nazis.

Yes, fighting NAZIs is great. However, just because someone hates NAZIs, it doesn't automatically make them friends of liberty or America. I think it is ok to look at every group that is taking to the streets and committing violence. These groups can be dangerous. Some of the worst violence of the last century took place between fascists and anti-fascists/communists. 

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

They also like mixing it up at G7/8/20 meetings

WTO too.

These fools are basically the same group as the Black Bloc. They don't stand for a coherent ideology and don't have any taste for the hard work of real political organization. They just want to break things and sow chaos.

 

[Josie Maran]

Yes, fighting NAZIs is great. However, just because someone hates NAZIs, it doesn't automatically make them friends of liberty or America. I think it is ok to look at every group that is taking to the streets and committing violence. These groups can be dangerous. Some of the worst violence of the last century took place between fascists and anti-fascists/communists. 

I know.  But in a fight between these two, I know whose side I'm on.

 

[Henry Ford]

I know.  But in a fight between these two, I know whose side I'm on.

Sure, but it would be preferable to simply be on one's own side.

 

[Josie Maran]

Sure, but it would be preferable to simply be on one's own side.

I can't fight ALL the Nazis...I'm not Indiana Jones, you know.

 

[Henry Ford]

I can't fight ALL the Nazis...I'm not Indiana Jones, you know.

I'll help.

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

I know.  But in a fight between these two, I know whose side I'm on.

I love you man, but political violence should never be acceptable. Once it becomes normalized to any substantial degree, we are on a very slippery slope indeed.

I know it is tough, because my visceral reaction is to want to see these alt-right peckerwoods beat down as well, but that isn't a productive impulse. And these types of leftist groups (Antifa, Black bloc, etc.) don't solely get out and brawl with Nazis, they also bring damage and violence with them when they protest against free trade, for instance.

 

[Josie Maran]

I love you man, but political violence should never be acceptable.

Disagree.