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I can tell you this... I am owed money by the Fantasy Jungle and as of today I haven't heard a word from them. No email or phone call. I have played every year that they have been in business and I can honestly say this is something that I never thought they would do. Especially since, I believe, they had more teams in their ME this year than ever before. God this blows. I feel really bad for the ME winner.
Interesting Raskell. Maybe he'll respond here as he was expressly clear in telling me that they'd contacted everyone and told them there would be a delay. I know they have contacted the original poster.J
SAY WHAT???????????? they did NOT contact me, i emailed them to see when i'd be getting paid and was told April, and when I inquired as to why so long, i was given some lame excuse. I knew right then there was trouble, but they did not level with me in the least or suggest that they were having business difficulties. To the contrary, they made it seem like they were so busy with all their contests that they just didnt have time, and seemed miffed that i was even asking. They responded to a message i put on their message board, saying i'd be paid much sooner than April. Then, of course, they took down their message board, and soon thereafter their whole website. Nice way to treat one of their original customers, who played in virtually all of their baseball and football contests every year. Great guys they seemed to be...I wont demean this mesaage board with what i think of them now.
A thread about high stakes fantasy competition with thousands of paying customers is comparable with a thread about the commish of my local league not paying me my money. AFFL was buried as this one will be no dout but just come out and say thats the way it is.... Rules are the rules... Zero tolerance ect ect and not try and say if i allow this thread to stay i would have to allow these other silly examples to stay as well.
I don't mean to parse words, but if they told you April then that means they contacted you. They may not have responded to your ultimate question, but contact was made. That's what Joe said and by your own words it seems like that was done.I'm 100% with you that this isn't good business on any level and I wish you all the luck in getting what you deserve. Good luck!
Might want to scroll up a few posts.J
I hope you and the other winners can get their money eventually. And if more of them can find their way to this thread, perhaps you'll be able to help each other out with contacting Fantasy Jungle and getting paid. In the meantime, stick around. This is a pretty good football board, and it keeps getting busier up til draft time.
From personal experience, I can tell you that the math and cash side of the contest business is quite easy to figure out.The Ghost of Common said:
Leroy - Are you guys at the FFPC the ONLY ones who escrow the total prize money?What about the prize being "guaranteed"?
Yes, we are. We use a reputable (and contactable) attorney in New Jersey, who locks up the money for us until we pay out in mid-to-late December (depending on what prize is won and when it is won). For me, it is a personal mission or quest or whatever you want to call it to offer escrowed prizes. We always will offer it, because I never, ever, want people to doubt (or even wonder) that they will get paid by us. Fully secured prize money and paying faster than everyone else is part and parcel of our mission.When contests refer to "guaranteed" prizes, they are referring to the minimum amount of prizes that have been "guaranteed" to be paid without regard to signups. According to the 2006 Internet Gaming Act, contests cannot base their overall prize structure on the number of signups. If a contest does not get the number of signups it projects, it either has to payout according to the "guaranteed" prize money, or cancel the contest and re-solicit all of their players. Legally, that is what is supposed to be done. One national contest changed their structure last year mid-contest, even after some teams had drafted. Anyone can offer "guaranteed" prizes. The key, though, is actually PAYING out those prizes, not just guaranteeing them. I hope the Jungle comes through eventually, as some of their players are also good customers and friends of ours. I never wanted to see something like this happen yet again.
They say they place the 1,000,000 prize in escrow, but your guess is as good as mine as to where that may be. If I can't contact the place where they say the money is being held is it really being held? Plus, under their new payout plan, as the million is not paid out in a lump sum, I don't know how that would even work. If all the money is in escrow why not pay it out? My guess is because all the money ISN'T escrowed. Plus, they say nothing about the rest of the prizes being escrowed. So no, the FFOC doesn't put all the prize money in escrow.jwinston2 said:
Sounds like they are now. Vague mentions of the economy makes me think the money went somewhere it shouldn't have been. Maybe these guys had their own financial trouble and are using contest funds to save themselves. It really sounds like they got greedy, trying to expand, and instead of taking out a loan, they used everyone's money to foot the bill. And when things didn't work out, they couldn't pay up.
no one is going to buy the business knowing that in doing so they are going to have to have to pay the business' initial debt from a major ####up that was avoidable.
These guys are pathetic and are just living beyond their means all the while ripping people off. It's too bad they never end up being prosecuted but you have to figure karma is a biotch. 
Most business models are simplistic when looked at from the outside. The reality is, businesses go under. For example, many companies routinely use a credit line to pay expenses, meet payroll, etc... I'll bet many people in this thread, whether they realize it or not, get paychecks from funds provided by a line of credit their company has. For many companies, these credit lines are drying up. This could very well be what happened to them. I'm not saying what they did is right, excusable, etc. But this is business - this happens sometimes. I own a company - I had one client go under two years ago (I'm a copywriter), leaving me with 10k in unpaid invoices. I eventually got 2k, but ate 8k. They paid me on time, every time for two years. Never saw this coming. They caught a bad break, domino effect, and boom, no more company. Eating 8k in billing sucks. But it's part of being in business.ROCKET said:These guys who pull this bs are nothing but cons to me. Their business model is simplistic as can be and there is no excuse imaginable to not have the prize money when the season is over. The revenue and expenses are predetermined for the year going in. Staff expenses among other related excuses don't hold waterThese guys are pathetic and are just living beyond their means all the while ripping people off. It's too bad they never end up being prosecuted but you have to figure karma is a biotch.
In all honesty, I'll bet most business owners are hurt by going OOB. The world is littered with those stories too (actually, it's probably not, because you never hear those. Just *poof*... gone... dust off the resume.) Like I said, from what I read here, it seems these guys made an honest go of it, ran it for years, had a good rep, etc. They are going out of biz in a terrible economy. It happens. I don't blame anyone owed money for being upset. Just trying to give some perspective.
Ponzi scheme is what I was thinking, as far as a revolving cycle of $. Maybe Bernie Madoff is the secret / silent partner. And I agree it would be a tough *asset* to move/sell @ this point due to their current lack of credibility. Don't know the site/contest - but if they were running multiple sports (MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL) then this theory would make more sense since the AR/AP schedules would help the cause.Timing wise the NFL season isn't much different than the market crash last fall - so maybe they "invested" some of the $ and got crushed.August oil futures anyone?I wasn't involved, but read through some of this and it's too bad all around. I really hope guys that won and are yet to be paid didn't pre-spend the winnings on credit cards, and are now stuck w/ the payments & interest.Good luck guys who are owed $, unfortunately I think you're going to need it.
I've had my own construction business for almost 20 years and know all about the risks of running a business. The point you're missing is the business these jagoffs ran had zero chance of folding. The costs are fixed and the revenue is guaranteed. Are you trying to tell me they incurred some unforeseen costs? How? They are running a fantasy football contest where the overhead is next to nothing. Do you think they have some office somewhere with secretaries, sales people and an IT staff? The only reason why they don't have the prize $$ is they spent it. And they knew damn well they were spending someone elses $$ while they did it. In business as in life you will meet people who will screw you and never miss a moments sleep over it. Just another example of that here.
They took the prize money to grow their business, including some BS about "building things for other companies." Stealing, plain and simple, in the case where prizes should be awarded.
I don't diasgree with anything you are suggesting except the part in bold, although I don't fault you for thinking this. The overhead of running a individual fantasy football league is next to nothing. The overhead of running a national, multi-league fantasy football contest - even one which is online - is much more than people realize.
I'm not saying there is zero overhead but the overhead is very minimal as opposed to the average business. The only overhead is $$ to maintain a website and some advertising costs. The startup of the business which was done years prior is nothing more than filing for an LLC and having an attorney draw up a few legal documents for the contests. I'm going to go out on a limb and figure the fixed overhead costs are less than 10-15%% of the total business gross and that's being generous.You could do the whole operation from the spare bedroom of your home. On top of that, you have a guaranteed revenue stream which you recieve AHEAD of time. No waiting or chasing people for $$ like 99% of businesses have to do. There is no way someone can convince me that when you add up the #'s that this business wouldn't turn a profit or worst case scenario break even after the prize $$ was paid. So in essense these guys stole all the prize $$. Their excuses are pathetic.
For what?People just need to wake up and realize that these companies don't just take their cut and put all the prize money in a little piggy bank until the end of the season. They're a business just like any other, and they're going to use that money to expand, and I can't see how that's against the law. I'd rather see a little accountability on behalf of the people who send in their money having no idea how these companies run.Ministry of Pain said:
Actually it's not a dumb comment. My guess is that most of these contests have never been profitable since day 1. In this case, the Jungle managed to operate for a few years before the party was over. Some others have done the same. But every year you play, you are taking a chance that the game of musical chairs will end. That's the risk. You have to take responsibility if you decide to play in a contest where the owners are paying out more in prize money than they can cover with revenue + overhead. Some in this thread seem to think the overhead is small. But in many cases it's not. They may be spending a ton of cash on marketing, advertising, software, hosting, support, prize money, etc. all in an attempt to attract new players. They may be investing the money in non-contest related parts of the business. They may end up will razor thin profit margins or none at all and need huge growth just to break even. The FFOC appears to be another example of a contest that is using this business model. I believe they have a multi-year strategy and are reportedly well financed, and it may work out in the long run. It appears to be a very professionally run operation and supposedly the prize money is held in escrow. But they appear to have ran up huge debt in year 1 as part of a strategy to grow the business. And how many years in a row can you offer a guaranteed million dollar prize payout without the supporting revenue? At some point, regardless of who is running the contest, if you don't reach the growth targets, the business will fold. And the winners may not get paid. And there isn't much legal recourse for them. If the money was all re-invested in the "business", then it's not fraud. It's just a failed business model. The most you could possibly hope to get back is your entry fee. That is the risk and that is why as a player you must take responsibility to understand that most of these games are NOT simple contests, they are businesses that can potentially go under. Buyer beware.
How about some accountability from people who get robbed on the street, too? Those idiots don't know how society is run.
It's the players' fault?
The bolded statement is inaccurate for at least two high stakes contests. At the FFPC, we put our prize money in a verifiable attorney escrow account. I have also confirmed with Greg at the NFFC that they set aside their prize money with Wells Fargo, and my substantial prize check from them cashed just fine. I cannot accurately speak for what the other contests do with their prize pools. Now, more than ever, players should feel comfortable playing in the remaining contests, as the money being set aside or escrowed should be a pre-entry requirement and makes for a good selling point from a contest's perspective. It is also a REALLY big stretch to blame anyone that played the Jungle for what occurred. The Jungle had been around for a number (5-6?) of years and had a good payout record prior to this year. Granted, they did not escrow, but people were not really calling for that (as much as they should have been) even after the Neil Wickham fiasco in 2007.
I don't believe they ran the baseball or golf contests. I can't say for sure whether or not any fees were collected before the decision to not have the contests though.
ROCKET gets it.
