Beer News - Sam Adams and Dogfish Head Merging (1 Viewer)

[Alex P Keaton]

But this is radically different than cashing out to Inbev isn't it? I totally get the angst over selling to Inbev.

Sure, Sam Adams is big but nothing like Inbev. And they seem to have gone out of their way to stress a "merger" not an "acquisition". That may be just words but that's what they're trying to promote. 

I've been on both sides of "mergers of equals."   None ended up feeling like a merger --- all ended up feeling like an acquisition.  Human beings are wired to be part of a tribe.  One tribe wins, one tribe loses.  That is how all "mergers" ultimately end up.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

So are they keeping the DFH branding and just operating at a subsidiary of Sam Adams?  Is calling this acquisition a "merger" just a ploy to keep the DFH customer base?

But this is radically different than cashing out to Inbev isn't it? I totally get the angst over selling to Inbev.

Sure, Sam Adams is big but nothing like Inbev. And they seem to have gone out of their way to stress a "merger" not an "acquisition". That may be just words but that's what they're trying to promote. 

I think there is some overstating of the "merger v acquisition" terminology in here.  Most all acquisitions are technically mergers, but in most all cases everyone knows which company is buyer and which is seller, as is very obvious in this case.  For legal / tax reasons, a temporary legal entity is created to make the purchase, then is merged into the parent entity.  Its a purely legal maneuver, not generally considered a marketing thing, but I get the point.  The DFH branding is one of the most valuable assets Boston Beer is acquiring.  All their press releases will emphasize that entity will maintain complete independence and control over its products (it won't). 

In the case of ABInBev buying Goose Island, that deal caused major concern in the beer geek community, mostly because it was on the front end of these acquisitions (or "sell-outs" depending on your viewpoint.)  But from the very beginning, if you actually listened to the InBev and Goose Island people, there was really no need for concern.  InBev wanted Goose Island's 312 brand,  an established wheat ale they wanted to compete with Miller/Coors Blue Moon. InBev was able to brew that beer and immediately distribute it nationwide.  The beer geeks don't care about 312, they cared about Goose Island's funky sour beers and their big black barrel aged stouts.  ABInbev was never going to touch those brands, and they remain the same to this day.  There are multiple reasons for this, but the most important is that those beers and their markets don't lend themselves to large scale distribution.  I'm sure they are profitable, but not on a macro level, if that makes sense, for a number of reasons.

 

[Ron Swanson]

I think there is some overstating of the "merger v acquisition" terminology in here.  Most all acquisitions are technically mergers, but in most all cases everyone knows which company is buyer and which is seller, as is very obvious in this case.  For legal / tax reasons, a temporary legal entity is created to make the purchase, then is merged into the parent entity.  Its a purely legal maneuver, not generally considered a marketing thing, but I get the point.  The DFH branding is one of the most valuable assets Boston Beer is acquiring.  All their press releases will emphasize that entity will maintain complete independence and control over its products (it won't). 

In the case of ABInBev buying Goose Island, that deal caused major concern in the beer geek community, mostly because it was on the front end of these acquisitions (or "sell-outs" depending on your viewpoint.)  But from the very beginning, if you actually listened to the InBev and Goose Island people, there was really no need for concern.  InBev wanted Goose Island's 312 brand,  an established wheat ale they wanted to compete with Miller/Coors Blue Moon. InBev was able to brew that beer and immediately distribute it nationwide.  The beer geeks don't care about 312, they cared about Goose Island's funky sour beers and their big black barrel aged stouts.  ABInbev was never going to touch those brands, and they remain the same to this day.  There are multiple reasons for this, but the most important is that those beers and their markets don't lend themselves to large scale distribution.  I'm sure they are profitable, but not on a macro level, if that makes sense, for a number of reasons.

I thought Shock Top was Inbev's national competitor for Blue Moon? I rarely see 312 in my travels but Goose IPA seems to be the de facto national IPA offering.

 

[Dickie Dunn]

Worst beer I've ever had was a Dogfish Head Chicory Stout. I can still remember how skunked it was, and this is twenty years later.

Wow, was it ever bad. It took me a long time before I could drink their beer again, and I would drink their IPAs, which were actually pretty good for IPAs. I'm not a Dogfish aficianado, though. Sam had a good pale ale a while back, and a pretty good kolsch. 

Oddly enough, the worst beer I ever had probably was a Sam Adams Triple Bock. Tasted like I was drinking pure molasses. Of course I had to kill an entire six-pack and it sat in my fridge forever. I brought the last one to a Patriots tailgate because I knew if I had to throw it out on my walk into the stadium I wouldn't be mad.

(you younger folks have no idea how bad beer offerings were until around 1992 or so)

Probably the biggest reason I didn't drink a lot in college. I remember stumbling upon Sam Adams and Guinness sometime around '90-91 or so, and eventually finding a liquor store that carried a decent selection of imports.

I'm tight with the owner of what is now one of the bigger craft breweries in New England that has been around for about 25 years. They got in on the craze pretty early and pretty much got their start as home brewers while in college.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I thought Shock Top was Inbev's national competitor for Blue Moon? I rarely see 312 in my travels but Goose IPA seems to be the de facto national IPA offering.

I think this is the way it turned out, but at the time Bud was scrambling for a wheat ale to put up against Blue Moon.  At least that was how it was explained to me by a Goose Island distributor at the time.

 

[rockaction]

I'm tight with the owner of what is now one of the bigger craft breweries in New England that has been around for about 25 years.

Any anonymity concerns about saying which one? 

 

[Dickie Dunn]

Any anonymity concerns about saying which one? 

No ... Wachusett.

 

[pollardsvision]

I thought Shock Top was Inbev's national competitor for Blue Moon? I rarely see 312 in my travels but Goose IPA seems to be the de facto national IPA offering.

I did try the Goose IPA. But I'd never had it before InBev took over. It's drinkable, but not very good compared to IPAs from smaller Brewers.

Probably a stupid question, but I take the quality of that IPA took a hit after InBev? I can't imagine what's in that can now is the same stuff that led them to being a desirable buy for InBev.

 

[pollardsvision]

Testing out the yeast thing today. I'll report back.

 

[SFBayDuck]

(you younger folks have no idea how bad beer offerings were until around 1992 or so)

I went to a microbrew fest in Eugene, OR, in ‘93 or ‘94. It was marketed as the first of its kind, which may or may not have been true. But it was obviously very early on, even in the Pacific NW which was a center of the microbrewery boom. I think there were something like 18 breweries there (unfortunately Thomas Kemper is the only one I remember 25 years later.) Before that event, a good beer was saving up for Coors or Bud instead of Keystone or Blitz Weinhard or Olympia. But I distinctly remember experiencing beer that actually tasted good for the first time, and it totally changed how I saw beer going forward. 

 

[Tau837]

Big beer fan/drinker. I very much respect what Sam Adams accomplished. That said, while I can drink a SA or DFH beer any time, given choices I would never choose one as my first choice. It is a big disappointment for me when I sit down in an airport bar and the best beer on draft is a SA. I would be happier with a DFA, but I never see that on draft unless in a place like Yard House.

I'm sure the merger may look good financially, but I can't see it improving the quality of either product, which IMO was already overrated in both cases.

 

[mr. furley]

I did try the Goose IPA. But I'd never had it before InBev took over. It's drinkable, but not very good compared to IPAs from smaller Brewers.

Probably a stupid question, but I take the quality of that IPA took a hit after InBev? I can't imagine what's in that can now is the same stuff that led them to being a desirable buy for InBev.

if anything, the quality control InBev offers is state of the art. those people have QC dialed in to absurd levels. every single Bud, Bud Light, etc. you've ever had has tasted exactly the same. exactly. for decades. unless someone left it out in the sun to rot, or something.

that's incredible.

the big beer makers take a lot of arrows but QC should not be something people say they are not good at. if anything the consistency of Goose products will have improved. 

 

[Sebowski]

But it's beer.  I want the drunk.

I sell beer. I need to be able to drink all day and not be drunk. When I want to get drunk, it's cocktail time. And it's always cocktail time somewhere!

 

[Sebowski]

.  The beer geeks don't care about 312, they cared about Goose Island's funky sour beers and their big black barrel aged stouts.  ABInbev was never going to touch those brands, and they remain the same to this day.  

Except they haven't. Remember that hige recall of their barrel aged beers? 

But I don't give a ####. They can go #### themselves regardless of the quality of the liquid. There's enough good beer around where I live to not have to buy from the evil big guys. That's just me though. You do you. 

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Except they haven't. Remember that hige recall of their barrel aged beers? 

But I don't give a ####. They can go #### themselves regardless of the quality of the liquid. There's enough good beer around where I live to not have to buy from the evil big guys. That's just me though. You do you. 

I don't buy Bourbon County any more, but I'll definitely drink one if someone else is pouring.  I do occasionally buy a Sofie when its on tap around here.  

 

[urbanhack]

if anything, the quality control InBev offers is state of the art. those people have QC dialed in to absurd levels. every single Bud, Bud Light, etc. you've ever had has tasted exactly the same. exactly. for decades. unless someone left it out in the sun to rot, or something.

that's incredible.

the big beer makers take a lot of arrows but QC should not be something people say they are not good at. if anything the consistency of Goose products will have improved. 

Meh

 

[Sebowski]

if anything, the quality control InBev offers is state of the art. those people have QC dialed in to absurd levels. every single Bud, Bud Light, etc. you've ever had has tasted exactly the same. exactly. for decades. unless someone left it out in the sun to rot, or something.

that's incredible.

the big beer makers take a lot of arrows but QC should not be something people say they are not good at. if anything the consistency of Goose products will have improved. 

This is such a ####ty argument. I can make white rice taste the same every single time. That doesn't make me a chef. Especially if it's actually really ####ty white rice like Bud Lite is. 

 

[CletiusMaximus]

This is such a ####ty argument. I can make white rice taste the same every single time. That doesn't make me a chef. Especially if it's actually really ####ty white rice like Bud Lite is. 

Most brewers I know are at least willing to acknowledge its an impressive feat to go grain to glass in 6 days and produce a 100% consistent product over 350mil barrels a year.  I live less than 5 miles from Miller, and although I've never done a tour there nor do I buy their products, I would love to meet and speak with one of their brewers.  What they do is incredible imo.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Most brewers I know are at least willing to acknowledge its an impressive feat to go grain to glass in 6 days and produce a 100% consistent product over 350mil barrels a year.  I live less than 5 miles from Miller, and although I've never done a tour there nor do I buy their products, I would love to meet and speak with one of their brewers.  What they do is incredible imo.

I hear both of you.

From a technical standpoint, it's an impressive logistics / systems / engineering feat to be so consistent.

On the other side, the same can be said for McDonalds. 

I can see, and respect both sides of the argument I think. 

 

[mr. furley]

This is such a ####ty argument. I can make white rice taste the same every single time. That doesn't make me a chef. Especially if it's actually really ####ty white rice like Bud Lite is. 

the question was did Goose quality fall off because Inbev bought them. my response is "if anything it got better because their QC is world-class".

doesn't mean the beer tastes good. just means it tastes exactly the same in every situation across generations. that's impressive even if it's rice.

one of craft brewing's biggest problems is consistency. see... any craft brewery that had to recall beers for "off flavors". this is constantly happening across the craft spectrum. quality control matters. 

https://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2019/01/04/karben4-brewing-recalling-beer-bottles-due-to.html

http://uintabrewing.com/recall

http://newjersey.news12.com/story/34867945/sierra-nevada-brewing-co-announces-major-beer-recall

https://www.craftbrewingbusiness.com/news/latest-craft-beer-recall-notices-revolution-brewing-real-ale-brewing/

https://journalstar.com/business/local/boulevard-recalls-beer-sold-in-omaha/article_09020c5c-d7f8-5404-ba1c-22fdd54d736c.html

 

[mr. furley]

Most brewers I know are at least willing to acknowledge its an impressive feat to go grain to glass in 6 days and produce a 100% consistent product over 350mil barrels a year.  I live less than 5 miles from Miller, and although I've never done a tour there nor do I buy their products, I would love to meet and speak with one of their brewers.  What they do is incredible imo.

it's remarkable. given the various places the beer is made, in different temps, with different equipment, different pathogens in the air, different water, different people brewing, etc. 

it'd be like saying "Ray Allen's jumper is no big deal. i can shoot a basketball, too."

 

[Steve Tasker]

Most brewers I know are at least willing to acknowledge its an impressive feat to go grain to glass in 6 days and produce a 100% consistent product over 350mil barrels a year.  I live less than 5 miles from Miller, and although I've never done a tour there nor do I buy their products, I would love to meet and speak with one of their brewers.  What they do is incredible imo.

In my admittedly little experience, the handful of brewers I've spoken with have a ton of respect for the AB-Inbev guys, Miller guys, etc., and say that they're literally some of the best brewers on the planet for being able to deliver an identical product over and over and over again.  Then again, those AB-Inbev and Miller guys go home and drink craft beer because they won't touch the swill they brew on a daily basis.  

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Then again, those AB-Inbev and Miller guys go home and drink craft beer because they won't touch the swill they brew on a daily basis.  

At Miller, they have a small brewing area where the brewers can mess around and make what they want.  I think its like 10 brls or so, but its top notch equipment. I've seen them at a couple beer fests around here.  Its odd at first to see the Miller logo on  a tent at a beer geek fest, but they are pouring beers from unbranded plain brown 750's and its always excellent stuff.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I hear both of you.

From a technical standpoint, it's an impressive logistics / systems / engineering feat to be so consistent.

On the other side, the same can be said for McDonalds. 

I can see, and respect both sides of the argument I think. 

@Sebowski and I go way back on the craft beer bandwagon, but he's officially in the industry now and I knew he would see that and respond accordingly.  Of course, I agree with him about 95% of the way, but since I don't have actual skin in the game I don't need to be as outwardly antagonistic against the big players.  The macros are known to use all the market power at their disposal to keep the little guys down, including some pretty underhanded tactics (then they buy them.)

 

[SWC]

t Miller, they have a small brewing area where the brewers can mess around and make what they want.  I think its like 10 brls or so, but its top notch equipment. I've seen them at a couple beer fests around here.  Its odd at first to see the Miller logo on  a tent at a beer geek fest, but they are pouring beers from unbranded plain brown 750's and its always excellent stuff.

 man i live here and i did not know that thanks for the heads up and i will keep an eye out for it at anything beer festy that i attend heres to you bromigo take that to the bank

 

[mr. furley]

At Miller, they have a small brewing area where the brewers can mess around and make what they want.  I think its like 10 brls or so, but its top notch equipment. I've seen them at a couple beer fests around here.  Its odd at first to see the Miller logo on  a tent at a beer geek fest, but they are pouring beers from unbranded plain brown 750's and its always excellent stuff.

i don't keep up as much as some guys but isn't Casey one of the former Bud brewers?  or was it Miller??

tinkering on the experimental system at (Bud/Miller) is pretty how much how that company got its start from my understanding. 

 

[supermike80]

I think Boston Beer has struggled coming up with new products.  Offerings like cold snap just aren't doing it.  DFH however is still making great, innovative flavorings.    This might be a very good merger for both.  

 

[Sebowski]

i don't keep up as much as some guys but isn't Casey one of the former Bud brewers?  or was it Miller??

tinkering on the experimental system at (Bud/Miller) is pretty how much how that company got its start from my understanding. 

Coors

 

[Sebowski]

I hear both of you.

From a technical standpoint, it's an impressive logistics / systems / engineering feat to be so consistent.

On the other side, the same can be said for McDonalds. 

I can see, and respect both sides of the argument I think. 

McDonalds is a great example for my side of this. Their cheeseburger and fries tastes the same in every country they make it.  

 

[Sebowski]

@Sebowski and I go way back on the craft beer bandwagon, but he's officially in the industry now and I knew he would see that and respond accordingly.  Of course, I agree with him about 95% of the way, but since I don't have actual skin in the game I don't need to be as outwardly antagonistic against the big players.  The macros are known to use all the market power at their disposal to keep the little guys down, including some pretty underhanded tactics (then they buy them.)

Yeah sorry about the ranting in here. I try not to be that preachy. 

 

[RUSF18]

I am positively obsessed with DFH SeaQuench Ale right now, pretty much the only thing I can drink. 

I really like sour beers, and bought this about a year ago but didn't like it very much. 

Randomly on Friday I bought another 6 pack of it due to not really finding anything else interesting that day, but this time really enjoyed it and have already bought another.

 

[mr. furley]

digging through some old archives out of boredom today. from an ABInbevAMA back in 2013:

achmejedidad

Please describe the taste of Budweiser and comment on what makes it unique. 
 

ABInBevAMA

I will do my best. 

The taste of Budweiser is intentionally reductionist but still lively. The malt is not heavily kilned, so the malt contribution is decidedly sweet with just a hint of biscuit/toffee that increases with age (although the toffee can get overpowering in a really old beer). The rice makes the body of the beer lighter than an all malt lager would be (fewer unfermented sugars left over in the finished product and no additional barley husk compounds or flavors). Rice also contributes a subtle fruit, slightly nutty flavor.

The hop varities used (Mostly Willamette and Hallertau) are decidedly floral, lacking any significant citrus or resinous character. Since the majority of the hopping is early kettle, only a hint of floral/herbal hop aroma exists in the finished beer. That is also by design.

Because the hopping is low and the malt is moderated by the rice, the overall flavor is impacted mostly by the yeast. The bud yeast produces a lot of esters, which tend to be very fruity in nature. They evoke fresh fruit and a little bit of melon (like a fresh, not-overripe cantaloupe and flowers). There is a complete lack of diacetyl. 

Like most lagers, a really fresh Budweiser will also still have a little sulfitic character. It disappears relatively fast during aging, but when it's still there it adds another pleasant layer to the beer. 

Here's an article I saw about craft brewers using rice in beer and the flavors they think it adds: LA Times food section

 

[Sebowski]

digging through some old archives out of boredom today. from an ABInbevAMA back in 2013:

achmejedidad

Please describe the taste of Budweiser and comment on what makes it unique. 
 

ABInBevAMA

I will do my best. 



Because the hopping is low and the malt is moderated by the rice, the overall flavor is impacted mostly by the yeast. The bud yeast produces a lot of esters, which tend to be very fruity in nature. They evoke fresh fruit and a little bit of melon (like a fresh, not-overripe cantaloupe and flowers). There is a complete lack of diacetyl. 
 

Amazing. They were getting hammered for their new campaign that lists their "only 4 ingredients" , but excludes yeast (water, malt, rice, hops) . And here they are admitting yeast is what drives the flavor of their beer. So perfect. 

 

[mr. furley]

hadn't even thought about that

 

[Ted Stickles]

I really like sour beers, and bought this about a year ago but didn't like it very much. 

Randomly on Friday I bought another 6 pack of it due to not really finding anything else interesting that day, but this time really enjoyed it and have already bought another.

Went to a bachelor party in Austin that was owned by a beer company.  Their cans of sour beer were the only variety left over in the fridges.  :X

Also went to beer festival this past weekend and there were quite a few more sour beers than I expected, so there must be demand for them.

 

[pollardsvision]

I think Boston Beer has struggled coming up with new products.  Offerings like cold snap just aren't doing it.  DFH however is still making great, innovative flavorings.    This might be a very good merger for both.  

BB appears, to me, to be more of a business success at the moment than a beer success. Admittedly, there are many Sam beers I haven't tried (they haven't garnered the confidence in me to try whatever they've got the way other breweries have). The Lager is fine, though I don't buy it. The IPA's that I've tried aren't completely terrible, but also not as good as a dozen others in every beer aisle. How they've grown so much without a great IPA is quite amazing, really. 

When I think of Sam Adams, I think of a nice Lager I don't buy, unexciting IPA's, that damn Cherry Wheat that my wife makes me buy a couple times a year, and now, a whole bunch of Twisted Tea and Hard Cider. Great marketing company, and good on them for that.

Their main national competitor, otoh, Sierra Nevada basically speaks to my soul. Their staples are awesome, and most everything else they put out is generally awesome.

 

[supermike80]

BB appears, to me, to be more of a business success at the moment than a beer success. Admittedly, there are many Sam beers I haven't tried (they haven't garnered the confidence in me to try whatever they've got the way other breweries have). The Lager is fine, though I don't buy it. The IPA's that I've tried aren't completely terrible, but also not as good as a dozen others in every beer aisle. How they've grown so much without a great IPA is quite amazing, really. 

When I think of Sam Adams, I think of a nice Lager I don't buy, unexciting IPA's, that damn Cherry Wheat that my wife makes me buy a couple times a year, and now, a whole bunch of Twisted Tea and Hard Cider. Great marketing company, and good on them for that.

Their main national competitor, otoh, Sierra Nevada basically speaks to my soul. Their staples are awesome, and most everything else they put out is generally awesome.

Sam Adam's Octoberfest is still one of the best beers out there if you like that malty thick style.  I look forward to it every year.