Blown Call At End Of Lions-Cowboys Game - Ref Crew Apparently Pulled From Playoffs Per Thread (1 Viewer)

[Anarchy99]

Well…one team was trying their best to be cute and use trickery in multiple ways (I’d be happy to break it down for you) and the other team was playing defense.

I really hope the NFL bans:
-Multiple players trying report
-Shifting between ineligible and eligible positions by an ineligible player.

The more I watch and study the play and what all happened the more I dislike Campbell. Garbage.

I will own this for the Patriots. They ruined it for everyone else when they were desperate and got cute in the playoff game against the Ravens about 10 years ago. NE had a series where they sent linemen in as eligible, but they alternated which ones were eligible across multiple plays. Then to add more seasoning into the mix, they took eligible players and had them enter the game denouncing their eligibility and had them lineup as linemen. The Ravens had no idea how to defend it, and the officials had no idea how to properly monitor and announce it. There were plays when NE mucked up where the chess pieces should have been lined up, but the refs were so confused that they didn't call any penalties for illegal formations. IIRC, the league changed the rules on what teams could get away with in terms of substitutions and eligibility that off season, but I don't remember how those rules changes.

 

[Gally]

Well…one team was trying their best to be cute and use trickery in multiple ways (I’d be happy to break it down for you) and the other team was playing defense.

I really hope the NFL bans:
-Multiple players trying report
-Shifting between ineligible and eligible positions by an ineligible player.

No need to break it down, I'm fully aware of what they were trying to do. It was all within the rules and not dissimilar to things every team does at times to try to fool the opposition. Obviously it seems to have contributed to the refs making a mistake, but it doesn't absolve the refs. It's ok for Dallas fans to admit that.

I'm not opposed to revisiting the rules around eligible receivers and how they are reported and communicated. The current practice seems archaic. I'm sure there's some well-grounded basis for why the ability to shift from ineligible to eligible exists, so it's probably not something you can eliminate completely, but they can surely clean up the mechanics of it so it doesn't rely on someone rubbing their belly in the direction of a referee or whatever.

Since the eligibility is really dependent upon where you lineup why even have the need to make any announcements at all? I have never understood that.

 

[Bankerguy]

Well…one team was trying their best to be cute and use trickery in multiple ways (I’d be happy to break it down for you) and the other team was playing defense.

I really hope the NFL bans:
-Multiple players trying report
-Shifting between ineligible and eligible positions by an ineligible player.

The more I watch and study the play and what all happened the more I dislike Campbell. Garbage.

I will own this for the Patriots. They ruined it for everyone else when they were desperate and got cute in the playoff game against the Ravens about 10 years ago. NE had a series where they sent linemen in as eligible, but they alternated which ones were eligible across multiple plays. Then to add more seasoning into the mix, they took eligible players and had them enter the game denouncing their eligibility and had them lineup as linemen. The Ravens had no idea how to defend it, and the officials had no idea how to properly monitor and announce it. There were plays when NE mucked up where the chess pieces should have been lined up, but the refs were so confused that they didn't call any penalties for illegal formations. IIRC, the league changed the rules on what teams could get away with in terms of substitutions and eligibility that off season, but I don't remember how those rules changes.

Lion’s played on this same concept.

They then made it legal by double shifting Sewell back to an eligible spot.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Well…one team was trying their best to be cute and use trickery in multiple ways (I’d be happy to break it down for you) and the other team was playing defense.

I really hope the NFL bans:
-Multiple players trying report
-Shifting between ineligible and eligible positions by an ineligible player.

No need to break it down, I'm fully aware of what they were trying to do. It was all within the rules and not dissimilar to things every team does at times to try to fool the opposition. Obviously it seems to have contributed to the refs making a mistake, but it doesn't absolve the refs. It's ok for Dallas fans to admit that.

I'm not opposed to revisiting the rules around eligible receivers and how they are reported and communicated. The current practice seems archaic. I'm sure there's some well-grounded basis for why the ability to shift from ineligible to eligible exists, so it's probably not something you can eliminate completely, but they can surely clean up the mechanics of it so it doesn't rely on someone rubbing their belly in the direction of a referee or whatever.

Since the eligibility is really dependent upon where you lineup why even have the need to make any announcements at all? I have never understood that.

I don't know, I've never thought much about it until a couple of days ago. I imagine making it based on where you line up would add other complications with teams doing all kinds of crazy alignments and motions to confuse the issue.

On that note, why does the concept of an ineligible receiver exist in the first place? I assume there's a good reason, but like I said I've never put much thought into it. Why aren't all 11 players just eligible on every play?

 

[FreeBaGeL]

On that note, why does the concept of an ineligible receiver exist in the first place? I assume there's a good reason, but like I said I've never put much thought into it. Why aren't all 11 players just eligible on every play?

I think if every pass rusher has to worry about their blocker turning around and catching a pass it would pretty severely disadvantage the defense.

 

[Gally]

Well…one team was trying their best to be cute and use trickery in multiple ways (I’d be happy to break it down for you) and the other team was playing defense.

I really hope the NFL bans:
-Multiple players trying report
-Shifting between ineligible and eligible positions by an ineligible player.

No need to break it down, I'm fully aware of what they were trying to do. It was all within the rules and not dissimilar to things every team does at times to try to fool the opposition. Obviously it seems to have contributed to the refs making a mistake, but it doesn't absolve the refs. It's ok for Dallas fans to admit that.

I'm not opposed to revisiting the rules around eligible receivers and how they are reported and communicated. The current practice seems archaic. I'm sure there's some well-grounded basis for why the ability to shift from ineligible to eligible exists, so it's probably not something you can eliminate completely, but they can surely clean up the mechanics of it so it doesn't rely on someone rubbing their belly in the direction of a referee or whatever.

Since the eligibility is really dependent upon where you lineup why even have the need to make any announcements at all? I have never understood that.

I don't know, I've never thought much about it until a couple of days ago. I imagine making it based on where you line up would add other complications with teams doing all kinds of crazy alignments and motions to confuse the issue.

On that note, why does the concept of an ineligible receiver exist in the first place? I assume there's a good reason, but like I said I've never put much thought into it. Why aren't all 11 players just eligible on every play?

My understanding is that only the players on the line of scrimmage eligible to receive a pass are the two guys on either end (whether close or split out wide). All players "in the backfield" (meaning not on the LOS) are eligible to catch a pass. In practice it seems like the split wide guys are sometimes on the LOS covering up a TE but the TE still goes out for passes. That could just be the officials not calling it that close. Not sure.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

On that note, why does the concept of an ineligible receiver exist in the first place? I assume there's a good reason, but like I said I've never put much thought into it. Why aren't all 11 players just eligible on every play?

I think if every pass rusher has to worry about their blocker turning around and catching a pass it would pretty severely disadvantage the defense.

Sure, but the game would have just evolved differently in the absence of that rule. I'm just curious how the concept came to be in the first place. All I can find is that the rule was added in 1951 to make offensive linemen ineligible to receive a pass. I guess maybe it was just as simple as "all this newfangled forward passing is too hard for the defense, we need to limit it."

 

[Bankerguy]

As part of the trickery - they also motion Sewell as well. The old Patriot’s trick that was banned a few years ago. Then motion him back to avoid the penalty.

I hope the NFL makes this play an instant 5 year penalty for illegal formation.

Point of information

Penei was not in motion. He was (legally) lined up in the Slot in a 2 point stance. Then he shifts to cover Skipper and takes a 3 point stance. Simultaneously LaPorta shifts to right wing (again, legal shift.) No one was in motion.

Sorry motion was maybe the wrong word.

There is a great video I watched. I will try to find it.

 

[BobbyLayne]

As part of the trickery - they also motion Sewell as well. The old Patriot’s trick that was banned a few years ago. Then motion him back to avoid the penalty.

I hope the NFL makes this play an instant 5 year penalty for illegal formation.

Point of information

Penei was not in motion. He was (legally) lined up in the Slot in a 2 point stance. Then he shifts to cover Skipper and takes a 3 point stance. Simultaneously LaPorta shifts to right wing (again, legal shift.) No one was in motion.

Sorry motion was maybe the wrong word.

There is a great video I watched. I will try to find it.

Yeah subsequently you called it double shift sorry for being pedantic

 

[Bankerguy]

This guy might be my spirit animal. Although a 49’s fan. Woof.

Here is why the Detroit Lions DESERVED that result! #detroitlions #dallascowboys #49ers

www.youtube.com

 

[Bankerguy]

As part of the trickery - they also motion Sewell as well. The old Patriot’s trick that was banned a few years ago. Then motion him back to avoid the penalty.

I hope the NFL makes this play an instant 5 year penalty for illegal formation.

Point of information

Penei was not in motion. He was (legally) lined up in the Slot in a 2 point stance. Then he shifts to cover Skipper and takes a 3 point stance. Simultaneously LaPorta shifts to right wing (again, legal shift.) No one was in motion.

Sorry motion was maybe the wrong word.

There is a great video I watched. I will try to find it.

Yeah subsequently you called it double shift sorry for being pedantic

Hey, all good. I appreciate the fans who will actually think and discuss rationally.

 

[markrc99]

“Two players can’t report. I don’t want to talk about it,” Campbell said tersely postgame. “I explained everything, pregame, to a T.”

Cited above, I suspect this comment & the press release from the league have something to do with one another. just speculating here but I don't think Campbell is attempting to say that only one ineligible can report as eligible on any given play. He may be referring to the officials formulating a default position in the event they're unsure which of the two is reporting. Recall that Campbell spoke with Allen separate from the others. Perhaps they had a conversation about it prior to the game? It might be worth knowing what is usually said to the officials? Decker says he said what he was told to say: "I went to the ref & said report & ah, yeah, I don't know." Is he simply being concise or does he say that one word & that's all? Note that he doesn't confirm that the ref acknowledged him as reporting as eligible.

Some seem to want to excuse Campbell from doing anything because he couldn't hear, but Decker placing himself within proximity of the official and saying the word report and with the breakdown in communication the result, no doubt the fault of the ref. Listening to Decker, I didn't find him convincing at all.

 

[CalBear]

On that note, why does the concept of an ineligible receiver exist in the first place? I assume there's a good reason, but like I said I've never put much thought into it. Why aren't all 11 players just eligible on every play?

I think if every pass rusher has to worry about their blocker turning around and catching a pass it would pretty severely disadvantage the defense.

Disadvantaging the defense by allowing QBs to throw to offensive tackles (100% fun!), with fewer penalty calls, sounds like a win-win.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

70 is announced eligible. The Cowboys visibly point it out and cover him. Yet there is still doubt about whether or not the Cowboys would have covered 68 if he was announced eligible?

That’s really the end of the story for me. Did the refs screw up? Yep. And Detroit should be thrilled, because they got 2 more chances to call an actual winning play instead of calling a dog that the defense sniffs out.

 

[Stoneworker]

70 is announced eligible. The Cowboys visibly point it out and cover him. Yet there is still doubt about whether or not the Cowboys would have covered 68 if he was announced eligible?

That’s really the end of the story for me. Did the refs screw up? Yep. And Detroit should be thrilled, because they got 2 more chances to call an actual winning play instead of calling a dog that the defense sniffs out.

And if 68 was covered by Bland then Goff could have gone underneath to Reynolds. Or if the defense had reacted to the eligibility declaration and shaded to 68 pre-snap then he could have checked out of it altogether. Or thrown to Montgomery out of the backfield.

The whole narrative that "if there was an announcement that 68 was eligible then it's a fact the entire conversion attempt was doomed" is ludicrous.

 

[Bankerguy]

70 is announced eligible. The Cowboys visibly point it out and cover him. Yet there is still doubt about whether or not the Cowboys would have covered 68 if he was announced eligible?

That’s really the end of the story for me. Did the refs screw up? Yep. And Detroit should be thrilled, because they got 2 more chances to call an actual winning play instead of calling a dog that the defense sniffs out.

And if 68 was covered by Bland then Goff could have gone underneath to Reynolds. Or if the defense had reacted to the eligibility declaration and shaded to 68 pre-snap then he could have checked out of it altogether. Or thrown to Montgomery out of the backfield.

The whole narrative that "if there was an announcement that 68 was eligible then it's a fact the entire conversion attempt was doomed" is ludicrous.

We will never know.

Just sick of the Lion’s were robbed narrative.
Or how clever they are - quite the opposite.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

70 is announced eligible. The Cowboys visibly point it out and cover him. Yet there is still doubt about whether or not the Cowboys would have covered 68 if he was announced eligible?

That’s really the end of the story for me. Did the refs screw up? Yep. And Detroit should be thrilled, because they got 2 more chances to call an actual winning play instead of calling a dog that the defense sniffs out.

And if 68 was covered by Bland then Goff could have gone underneath to Reynolds. Or if the defense had reacted to the eligibility declaration and shaded to 68 pre-snap then he could have checked out of it altogether. Or thrown to Montgomery out of the backfield.

The whole narrative that "if there was an announcement that 68 was eligible then it's a fact the entire conversion attempt was doomed" is ludicrous.

If not for the phantom tripping penalty Goff probably wouldve never touched the ball again

 

[Stoneworker]

70 is announced eligible. The Cowboys visibly point it out and cover him. Yet there is still doubt about whether or not the Cowboys would have covered 68 if he was announced eligible?

That’s really the end of the story for me. Did the refs screw up? Yep. And Detroit should be thrilled, because they got 2 more chances to call an actual winning play instead of calling a dog that the defense sniffs out.

And if 68 was covered by Bland then Goff could have gone underneath to Reynolds. Or if the defense had reacted to the eligibility declaration and shaded to 68 pre-snap then he could have checked out of it altogether. Or thrown to Montgomery out of the backfield.

The whole narrative that "if there was an announcement that 68 was eligible then it's a fact the entire conversion attempt was doomed" is ludicrous.

If not for the phantom tripping penalty Goff probably wouldve never touched the ball again

Whatever other calls were/were not made elsewhere has zero to do with my point.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

70 is announced eligible. The Cowboys visibly point it out and cover him. Yet there is still doubt about whether or not the Cowboys would have covered 68 if he was announced eligible?

That’s really the end of the story for me. Did the refs screw up? Yep. And Detroit should be thrilled, because they got 2 more chances to call an actual winning play instead of calling a dog that the defense sniffs out.

And if 68 was covered by Bland then Goff could have gone underneath to Reynolds. Or if the defense had reacted to the eligibility declaration and shaded to 68 pre-snap then he could have checked out of it altogether. Or thrown to Montgomery out of the backfield.

The whole narrative that "if there was an announcement that 68 was eligible then it's a fact the entire conversion attempt was doomed" is ludicrous.

No doubt they might have converted. But that hasn’t been the narrative of most Lions fans. It’s like it was some 100% certainty they would have converted - which is borderline crazy.

And again, I’m not a Cowboys fan. I hate the Cowboys and have since Jason Garrett replaced injured Troy Aikman and beat the Packers on Thanksgiving in the mid-90s. Least favorite teams?
1. Vikings
2. Cowboys
3. Seahawks
4-31. Who cares?

 

[Ilov80s]

Seems like shenanigans - as designed by the Lions to me - to me. Glad they didn’t win that way.

??? Because they maybe tried to hide what the play was from the defense? Are you also opposed to the play action pass and fake field goal?

 

[Bankerguy]

Seems like shenanigans - as designed by the Lions to me - to me. Glad they didn’t win that way.

??? Because they maybe tried to hide what the play was from the defense? Are you also opposed to the play action pass and fake field goal?

DC pretty much admitted they were pulling out all stops to try and trick Dallas.

The Sewell double shift, also grey area that NFL will probably look at during offseason.

 

[Stoneworker]

70 is announced eligible. The Cowboys visibly point it out and cover him. Yet there is still doubt about whether or not the Cowboys would have covered 68 if he was announced eligible?

That’s really the end of the story for me. Did the refs screw up? Yep. And Detroit should be thrilled, because they got 2 more chances to call an actual winning play instead of calling a dog that the defense sniffs out.

And if 68 was covered by Bland then Goff could have gone underneath to Reynolds. Or if the defense had reacted to the eligibility declaration and shaded to 68 pre-snap then he could have checked out of it altogether. Or thrown to Montgomery out of the backfield.

The whole narrative that "if there was an announcement that 68 was eligible then it's a fact the entire conversion attempt was doomed" is ludicrous.

No doubt they might have converted. But that hasn’t been the narrative of most Lions fans. It’s like it was some 100% certainty they would have converted - which is borderline crazy.

And again, I’m not a Cowboys fan. I hate the Cowboys and have since Jason Garrett replaced injured Troy Aikman and beat the Packers on Thanksgiving in the mid-90s. Least favorite teams?
1. Vikings
2. Cowboys
3. Seahawks
4-31. Who cares?

Agree that it is equally ludicrous to presume that the outcome of the play would have been the same had the proper announcement been made.

Where IMO the Lions did get screwed was in being penalized when most evidence shows they apparently handled the communications properly.

But of course Campbell's stubbornness to continue to pursue the 2-pt try from the 7 yard-line exacerbates the whole "we got screwed" narrative. Should have just lived with the bad call and moved on.

 

[rzrback77]

With all of the video coverage available, I think that it is surprising to me that the discussions continue. It all boils down to what #68 said and then what the Referee reported.

It makes no sense at all that #68 said anything other than that he was reporting, but nobody but the two Detroit OL and the Referee heard it. Then, the Referee reported on his microphone that #70 reported as eligible and the stadium noise apparently kept Detroit from hearing him. Even if Detroit had heard them, they had no time outs and likely would have risked delay of game with any additional discussion.

What remains is that Dallas most likely gets the #2 seed with the Eagles collapse and Detroit stays at #3. If both win their wild card games, then we will get a rematch and the Lions will have another chance at the Cowboys in Dallas. That will be a great match-up in the second round. Perhaps, the Lions will cover Lamb differently and the outcome will not come down to the last play of the game.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

70 is announced eligible. The Cowboys visibly point it out and cover him. Yet there is still doubt about whether or not the Cowboys would have covered 68 if he was announced eligible?

That’s really the end of the story for me. Did the refs screw up? Yep. And Detroit should be thrilled, because they got 2 more chances to call an actual winning play instead of calling a dog that the defense sniffs out.

And if 68 was covered by Bland then Goff could have gone underneath to Reynolds. Or if the defense had reacted to the eligibility declaration and shaded to 68 pre-snap then he could have checked out of it altogether. Or thrown to Montgomery out of the backfield.

The whole narrative that "if there was an announcement that 68 was eligible then it's a fact the entire conversion attempt was doomed" is ludicrous.

No doubt they might have converted. But that hasn’t been the narrative of most Lions fans. It’s like it was some 100% certainty they would have converted - which is borderline crazy.

And again, I’m not a Cowboys fan. I hate the Cowboys and have since Jason Garrett replaced injured Troy Aikman and beat the Packers on Thanksgiving in the mid-90s. Least favorite teams?
1. Vikings
2. Cowboys
3. Seahawks
4-31. Who cares?

Agree that it is equally ludicrous to presume that the outcome of the play would have been the same had the proper announcement been made.

Where IMO the Lions did get screwed was in being penalized when most evidence shows they apparently handled the communications properly.

But of course Campbell's stubbornness to continue to pursue the 2-pt try from the 7 yard-line exacerbates the whole "we got screwed" narrative. Should have just lived with the bad call and moved on.

No doubt. While the Lions tried to get a bit cute, they did nothing illegal. They played within the rules and the refs botched it.

 

[Ilov80s]

Seems like shenanigans - as designed by the Lions to me - to me. Glad they didn’t win that way.

??? Because they maybe tried to hide what the play was from the defense? Are you also opposed to the play action pass and fake field goal?

DC pretty much admitted they were pulling out all stops to try and trick Dallas.

The Sewell double shift, also grey area that NFL will probably look at during offseason.

Yeah for sure. Teams try to fool the other team all the time.

 

[Ilov80s]

It’s no different than say the Dan Marino fake spike but if the ref blew the play dead because he just assumed Marino was going to actually spike the ball. That’s on the ref, not on Marino for trying to be sneaky.

 

[Bankerguy]

Seems like shenanigans - as designed by the Lions to me - to me. Glad they didn’t win that way.

??? Because they maybe tried to hide what the play was from the defense? Are you also opposed to the play action pass and fake field goal?

DC pretty much admitted they were pulling out all stops to try and trick Dallas.

The Sewell double shift, also grey area that NFL will probably look at during offseason.

Yeah for sure. Teams try to fool the other team all the time.

It feels a bit ICK to me. I also would be pissed if DC was my coach for thinking he was fooling anyone.

 

[Ilov80s]

Seems like shenanigans - as designed by the Lions to me - to me. Glad they didn’t win that way.

??? Because they maybe tried to hide what the play was from the defense? Are you also opposed to the play action pass and fake field goal?

DC pretty much admitted they were pulling out all stops to try and trick Dallas.

The Sewell double shift, also grey area that NFL will probably look at during offseason.

Yeah for sure. Teams try to fool the other team all the time.

It feels a bit ICK to me. I also would be pissed if DC was my coach for thinking he was fooling anyone.

If you feel that way ok. Do you generally dislike trick plays?

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Just sick of the Lion’s were robbed narrative.

Right or wrong, it's understandable that Lions fans feel robbed, though. Obviously we'll never know whether or not they would have won the game if things had gone differently, but the refs made a critical mistake that screwed up the play the Lions wanted to run in that spot. It's natural for Lions fans to feel like they didn't get a fair shake. They were robbed - as were the Cowboys and the rest of NFL fandom - of the chance for the game to play out naturally on the field instead of being taken over by poor officiating.

The weirdest thing to me is actually all the Dallas fans who are so insistent on making it Detroit's fault. Like, you won the game and most people agree there's a good shot you still would've won the game anyway if the mistake hadn't happened. Why are so many Cowboys fans so indignant about acknowledging the fact that the refs screwed up (which negatively impacted both teams)?

 

[Gally]

The weirdest thing to me is actually all the Dallas fans who are so insistent on making it Detroit's fault. Like, you won the game and most people agree there's a good shot you still would've won the game anyway if the mistake hadn't happened. Why are so many Cowboys fans so indignant about acknowledging the fact that the refs screwed up (which negatively impacted both teams)?

What makes this even weirder is the refs also blew the tripping call on the drive before. If that gets called properly then this screw maybe never happens. I have seen that mentioned a few times and that is almost as egregious of a bad call (mistake) as this was.

It is always interesting how fans pick one specific instance and harp on it like that was the reason for the loss/win. There were 59 other minutes with missed calls and mistakes that could have changed the outcome. But nope, it was this play only that was the difference.

 

[Da Guru]

Just sick of the Lion’s were robbed narrative.

Right or wrong, it's understandable that Lions fans feel robbed, though. Obviously we'll never know whether or not they would have won the game if things had gone differently, but the refs made a critical mistake that screwed up the play the Lions wanted to run in that spot. It's natural for Lions fans to feel like they didn't get a fair shake. They were robbed - as were the Cowboys and the rest of NFL fandom - of the chance for the game to play out naturally on the field instead of being taken over by poor officiating.

The weirdest thing to me is actually all the Dallas fans who are so insistent on making it Detroit's fault. Like, you won the game and most people agree there's a good shot you still would've won the game anyway if the mistake hadn't happened. Why are so many Cowboys fans so indignant about acknowledging the fact that the refs screwed up (which negatively impacted both teams)?

Refs are human and make mistakes just like the players do. It was a playoff type atmosphere, then tied late, crowd going wild, players checking in. I see how that could happen.

Like Rex Ryan said "Just own it..say I thought it was Skipper 70, not Decker 68." Skipper said he never reported that play, Decker said he did exactly what DC told him to do and report.

Another issue it was a dead ball after the TD so there was no need to rush, the ref needed to make sure exactly who was reporting. If you watch the replay he hardly looked at Decker and seemed to be in a hurry. Why?

Who knows what the outcome would have been but NFL and the Ref need to say a mistake was made, put it to bed and move on. Just own it.

 

[Bankerguy]

Seems like shenanigans - as designed by the Lions to me - to me. Glad they didn’t win that way.

??? Because they maybe tried to hide what the play was from the defense? Are you also opposed to the play action pass and fake field goal?

DC pretty much admitted they were pulling out all stops to try and trick Dallas.

The Sewell double shift, also grey area that NFL will probably look at during offseason.

Yeah for sure. Teams try to fool the other team all the time.

It feels a bit ICK to me. I also would be pissed if DC was my coach for thinking he was fooling anyone.

If you feel that way ok. Do you generally dislike trick plays?

I like fake punts and gadget plays - sure.
Didn’t like what NE did with Ineligible/Eligibles a couple years back. This was similar.

 

[jon_mx]

70 is announced eligible. The Cowboys visibly point it out and cover him. Yet there is still doubt about whether or not the Cowboys would have covered 68 if he was announced eligible?

That’s really the end of the story for me. Did the refs screw up? Yep. And Detroit should be thrilled, because they got 2 more chances to call an actual winning play instead of calling a dog that the defense sniffs out.

And if 68 was covered by Bland then Goff could have gone underneath to Reynolds. Or if the defense had reacted to the eligibility declaration and shaded to 68 pre-snap then he could have checked out of it altogether. Or thrown to Montgomery out of the backfield.

The whole narrative that "if there was an announcement that 68 was eligible then it's a fact the entire conversion attempt was doomed" is ludicrous.

No doubt they might have converted. But that hasn’t been the narrative of most Lions fans. It’s like it was some 100% certainty they would have converted - which is borderline crazy.

And again, I’m not a Cowboys fan. I hate the Cowboys and have since Jason Garrett replaced injured Troy Aikman and beat the Packers on Thanksgiving in the mid-90s. Least favorite teams?
1. Vikings
2. Cowboys
3. Seahawks
4-31. Who cares?

Nobody is saying that. The objection is Banker's endless obsession with pinning the blame on the Lions and declaring himself the rationale one.

The ref royally messed up....just own it.

 

[Gally]

The ref royally messed up....just own it.

Both could be right. The ref royally messed up and the Lions helped confuse things to the point that it was messed up. That doesn't excuse the mess up

 

[jon_mx]

The ref royally messed up....just own it.

Both could be right. The ref royally messed up and the Lions helped confuse things to the point that it was messed up. That doesn't excuse the mess up

The refs are paid to watch 22 players simultaneously and determine if any act is illegal. If the ref gets confused by three men standing in front of him and can not pick out the one saying "reporting" and swiping down on his number....maybe he should not be a ref.

 

[Gally]

The ref royally messed up....just own it.

Both could be right. The ref royally messed up and the Lions helped confuse things to the point that it was messed up. That doesn't excuse the mess up

The refs are paid to watch 22 players simultaneously and determine if any act is illegal. If the ref gets confused by three men standing in front of him and can not pick out the one saying "reporting" and swiping down on his number....maybe he should not be a ref.

True.....but that doesn't make the other statement false.

 

[leftcoastheel]

Seems like shenanigans - as designed by the Lions to me - to me. Glad they didn’t win that way.

??? Because they maybe tried to hide what the play was from the defense? Are you also opposed to the play action pass and fake field goal?

DC pretty much admitted they were pulling out all stops to try and trick Dallas.

The Sewell double shift, also grey area that NFL will probably look at during offseason.

Yeah for sure. Teams try to fool the other team all the time.

It feels a bit ICK to me. I also would be pissed if DC was my coach for thinking he was fooling anyone.

If you feel that way ok. Do you generally dislike trick plays?

I like fake punts and gadget plays - sure.
Didn’t like what NE did with Ineligible/Eligibles a couple years back. This was similar.

Agree here. I just think throwing three linemen at the ref feels greasy. Ref still made a mistake, and I understand that the Lions told them they would be doing this upfront prior to kickoff, still I see how the guy could get confused in the situation and under the circumstances. Personally think there should be some kind of rule against this kind of chicanery. Lions were clearly trying to manipulate the ref and trying to get away with a fast one. Well, they didn't. Too bad. I also think overall that end of game play calling was $#^$ing terrible, but that's for a different discussion.

Probably should have been a no play as I think another poster here said earlier. Or Detroit perhaps could of somehow flagged to the ref that the number called was the incorrect number. Might have been practically difficult, but that's ideally what would have happened.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

The ref royally messed up....just own it.

Both could be right. The ref royally messed up and the Lions helped confuse things to the point that it was messed up. That doesn't excuse the mess up

The refs are paid to watch 22 players simultaneously and determine if any act is illegal. If the ref gets confused by three men standing in front of him and can not pick out the one saying "reporting" and swiping down on his number....maybe he should not be a ref.

Yeah, this is a pretty basic function for a ref. If he/she can’t do something this straightforward……well, we all know this crew has visibly struggled to perform multiple times recently.

 

[Bankerguy]

70 is announced eligible. The Cowboys visibly point it out and cover him. Yet there is still doubt about whether or not the Cowboys would have covered 68 if he was announced eligible?

That’s really the end of the story for me. Did the refs screw up? Yep. And Detroit should be thrilled, because they got 2 more chances to call an actual winning play instead of calling a dog that the defense sniffs out.

And if 68 was covered by Bland then Goff could have gone underneath to Reynolds. Or if the defense had reacted to the eligibility declaration and shaded to 68 pre-snap then he could have checked out of it altogether. Or thrown to Montgomery out of the backfield.

The whole narrative that "if there was an announcement that 68 was eligible then it's a fact the entire conversion attempt was doomed" is ludicrous.

No doubt they might have converted. But that hasn’t been the narrative of most Lions fans. It’s like it was some 100% certainty they would have converted - which is borderline crazy.

And again, I’m not a Cowboys fan. I hate the Cowboys and have since Jason Garrett replaced injured Troy Aikman and beat the Packers on Thanksgiving in the mid-90s. Least favorite teams?
1. Vikings
2. Cowboys
3. Seahawks
4-31. Who cares?

Nobody is saying that. The objection is Banker's endless obsession with pinning the blame on the Lions and declaring himself the rationale one.

The ref royally messed up....just own it.

You can’t read.

I’ve already said it was likely Allen messed it up.

I took the correct stance before anyone else that error equally affected both teams. You guys feel you got screwed, because he caught the 2 point attempt.

Again, Dallas was NOT covering 68. Plain and simple. Save for 2 or 3 reasonable Lion fans, the rest are calling it the biggest robbery in NFL history and asking for FBI investigations.

I have been super clear that I believe the entire idea was flawed and poorly executed and that the Lion’s hold a small share of blame why Allen got it wrong.

Here is a DC quote in MLive:

So, it’s about eligibility. That’s what it’s about. And it has nothing to do with the ref. The ref knows, because 68 reported. It’s for the defense, so that they see three different people and you’re just hoping they can’t hear that it’s (68). That’s all.

His entire strategy for the biggest play of your year is “he hopes the Cowboys don’t hear. He should be fired immediately for stupidity.

Refs have to inform both the Defensive Captain and announce it. I am not convinced Dan knows this. He was also quoted as saying 2 people cannot report as eligible on a play in his post game PC. This is also false.

Then he plays like my teen on Madden going for 2 no matter what.

If you think that is good decision making, I just don’t know how to talk Football with you

 

[jon_mx]

The ref royally messed up....just own it.

Both could be right. The ref royally messed up and the Lions helped confuse things to the point that it was messed up. That doesn't excuse the mess up

The refs are paid to watch 22 players simultaneously and determine if any act is illegal. If the ref gets confused by three men standing in front of him and can not pick out the one saying "reporting" and swiping down on his number....maybe he should not be a ref.

True.....but that doesn't make the other statement false.

But it does point out where the bulk of the blame should be cast. Trying to shift the blame to the players is wrong. The NFL and the ref need to just own up to the mistake. The Lions were operating within the rules and a three-year old would easily be able to pick out who was reporting. Confused? Come on.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Just sick of the Lion’s were robbed narrative.

Right or wrong, it's understandable that Lions fans feel robbed, though. Obviously we'll never know whether or not they would have won the game if things had gone differently, but the refs made a critical mistake that screwed up the play the Lions wanted to run in that spot. It's natural for Lions fans to feel like they didn't get a fair shake. They were robbed - as were the Cowboys and the rest of NFL fandom - of the chance for the game to play out naturally on the field instead of being taken over by poor officiating.

The weirdest thing to me is actually all the Dallas fans who are so insistent on making it Detroit's fault. Like, you won the game and most people agree there's a good shot you still would've won the game anyway if the mistake hadn't happened. Why are so many Cowboys fans so indignant about acknowledging the fact that the refs screwed up (which negatively impacted both teams)?

Refs are human and make mistakes just like the players do. It was a playoff type atmosphere, then tied late, crowd going wild, players checking in. I see how that could happen.

Like Rex Ryan said "Just own it..say I thought it was Skipper 70, not Decker 68." Skipper said he never reported that play, Decker said he did exactly what DC told him to do and report.

Another issue it was a dead ball after the TD so there was no need to rush, the ref needed to make sure exactly who was reporting. If you watch the replay he hardly looked at Decker and seemed to be in a hurry. Why?

Who knows what the outcome would have been but NFL and the Ref need to say a mistake was made, put it to bed and move on. Just own it.

I think, but don't know, that this is probably pretty common. The guy runs on and kind of points to the ref and they nod at each other and then he announces it. I don't think (but I could be wrong) it's typical for a commonly reported O-lineman to literally talk to the ref every time, especially when it's a guy who reports almost every time he comes on the field. In this case 70 was actually the only Detroit offensive lineman that had reported eligible all season. He's not a full-time player and typically when he comes on (including apparently twice in this game) he kind of runs over to the ref and either tells him he's eligible or does a similar kind of exchange. Just one of those idiosyncrasies like a WR on the line of scrimmage pointing at the ref or looking at and nodding to the ref to see if he's lined up properly, rather than yelling out and verbally asking him.

 

[jon_mx]

70 is announced eligible. The Cowboys visibly point it out and cover him. Yet there is still doubt about whether or not the Cowboys would have covered 68 if he was announced eligible?

That’s really the end of the story for me. Did the refs screw up? Yep. And Detroit should be thrilled, because they got 2 more chances to call an actual winning play instead of calling a dog that the defense sniffs out.

And if 68 was covered by Bland then Goff could have gone underneath to Reynolds. Or if the defense had reacted to the eligibility declaration and shaded to 68 pre-snap then he could have checked out of it altogether. Or thrown to Montgomery out of the backfield.

The whole narrative that "if there was an announcement that 68 was eligible then it's a fact the entire conversion attempt was doomed" is ludicrous.

No doubt they might have converted. But that hasn’t been the narrative of most Lions fans. It’s like it was some 100% certainty they would have converted - which is borderline crazy.

And again, I’m not a Cowboys fan. I hate the Cowboys and have since Jason Garrett replaced injured Troy Aikman and beat the Packers on Thanksgiving in the mid-90s. Least favorite teams?
1. Vikings
2. Cowboys
3. Seahawks
4-31. Who cares?

Nobody is saying that. The objection is Banker's endless obsession with pinning the blame on the Lions and declaring himself the rationale one.

The ref royally messed up....just own it.

You can’t read.

I’ve already said it was likely Allen messed it up.

I took the correct stance before anyone else that error equally affected both teams. You guys feel you got screwed, because he caught the 2 point attempt.

Again, Dallas was NOT covering 68. Plain and simple. Save for 2 or 3 reasonable Lion fans, the rest are calling it the biggest robbery in NFL history and asking for FBI investigations.

I have been super clear that I believe the entire idea was flawed and poorly executed and that the Lion’s hold a small share of blame why Allen got it wrong.

Here is a DC quote in MLive:

So, it’s about eligibility. That’s what it’s about. And it has nothing to do with the ref. The ref knows, because 68 reported. It’s for the defense, so that they see three different people and you’re just hoping they can’t hear that it’s (68). That’s all.

His entire strategy for the biggest play of your year is “he hopes the Cowboys don’t hear. He should be fired immediately for stupidity.

Refs have to inform both the Defensive Captain and announce it. I am not convinced Dan knows this. He was also quoted as saying 2 people cannot report as eligible on a play in his post game PC. This is also false.

Then he plays like my teen on Madden going for 2 no matter what.

If you think that is good decision making, I just don’t know how to talk Football with you

That is not his entire strategy. It is one aspect of the play. He had Reynolds cutting across to get in the way of the Linebacker. He had Monty as an outlet if needed. That was a small aspect of the play.

 

[Da Guru]

Seems like shenanigans - as designed by the Lions to me - to me. Glad they didn’t win that way.

??? Because they maybe tried to hide what the play was from the defense? Are you also opposed to the play action pass and fake field goal?

DC pretty much admitted they were pulling out all stops to try and trick Dallas.

The Sewell double shift, also grey area that NFL will probably look at during offseason.

Yeah for sure. Teams try to fool the other team all the time.

It feels a bit ICK to me. I also would be pissed if DC was my coach for thinking he was fooling anyone.

If you feel that way ok. Do you generally dislike trick plays?

I like fake punts and gadget plays - sure.
Didn’t like what NE did with Ineligible/Eligibles a couple years back. This was similar.

Agree here. I just think throwing three linemen at the ref feels greasy. Ref still made a mistake, and I understand that the Lions told them they would be doing this upfront prior to kickoff, still I see how the guy could get confused in the situation and under the circumstances. Personally think there should be some kind of rule against this kind of chicanery. Lions were clearly trying to manipulate the ref and trying to get away with a fast one. Well, they didn't. Too bad. I also think overall that end of game play calling was $#^$ing terrible, but that's for a different discussion.

Probably should have been a no play as I think another poster here said earlier. Or Detroit perhaps could of somehow flagged to the ref that the number called was the incorrect number. Might have been practically difficult, but that's ideally what would have happened.

Lions were not trying to manipulate the ref. They were disguising the play to confuse the defense not the ref. Campbell explained that in the pre-game meeting. DC said this morning he and every other HC go over every possible trick play with the refs pre-game so things like this do not happen. Offenses everywhere try to trick the defense. It was not about the ref.

All the ref had to do was look and listen to who was reporting. That did not happen.

 

[Gally]

Lions were not trying to manipulate the ref. They were disguising the play to confuse the defense not the ref.

Obviously. It would be extremely asinine for the point of the chicanery to manipulate the ref because if that was the point they did their job because he was definitely confused. However, upping the chicanery didn't do them any favors with the ref because it did confuse him to the point he made a mistake. That mistake should never happen for sure but the chicanery was a contributing factor (even if it shouldn't have been).

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Campbell described yesterday that all the stuff pre-snap using 3 linemen near the ref was by design and was intended to confuse the defense, with hope that the Cowboys did not hear that this time 68 was the eligible receiver and not 70 like he’d used earlier in the game.

LINK

He even describes why they did it that way . . . if only 68 had gone over and reported as eligible, Dallas would have known and the play likely would not have worked. The whole thing was to intentionally deceive the Cowboys.

People can draw their own conclusions, but it was all orchestrated.

Sometimes, the QB pretends to hand the ball off to the RB, but actually keeps the ball and attempts a pass instead. It's intentionally orchestrated that way to fool the other team.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I can't believe a bunch of long-time football fans are acting all surprised that one team tried to be tricky to gain an advantage. This is pathetic.

 

[Ignoratio Elenchi]

Campbell described yesterday that all the stuff pre-snap using 3 linemen near the ref was by design and was intended to confuse the defense, with hope that the Cowboys did not hear that this time 68 was the eligible receiver and not 70 like he’d used earlier in the game.

LINK

He even describes why they did it that way . . . if only 68 had gone over and reported as eligible, Dallas would have known and the play likely would not have worked. The whole thing was to intentionally deceive the Cowboys.

People can draw their own conclusions, but it was all orchestrated.

Sometimes, the QB pretends to hand the ball off to the RB, but actually keeps the ball and attempts a pass instead. It's intentionally orchestrated that way to fool the other team.

The NFL should definitely look at that in the offseason.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

The ref royally messed up....just own it.

Both could be right. The ref royally messed up and the Lions helped confuse things to the point that it was messed up. That doesn't excuse the mess up

The refs are paid to watch 22 players simultaneously and determine if any act is illegal. If the ref gets confused by three men standing in front of him and can not pick out the one saying "reporting" and swiping down on his number....maybe he should not be a ref.

If the lions won, would you think they should not be refs anymore because of the phantom tripping call?

 

[Bankerguy]

I can't believe a bunch of long-time football fans are acting all surprised that one team tried to be tricky to gain an advantage. This is pathetic.

I think you are cherry picking, but ok.

 

[Bankerguy]

I truly just wish the refs got it right and could watch Dallas shut it down, just for the post game PC.

Hey random Cowboys D player. What did see you on that play:

“Well we watched 3 lineman run up to the ref. Then we were informed 68 was eligible from the ref and heard the announcement over the microphone. Since, this is a play we studied in practice we called out coverage pre snap and shut it down.