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Brian Flores Sues NYG and NFL for Racial Discrimination (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter JaxBill
- Start date
irish eyes
Footballguy
I weep for a once proud franchise. Now hiring whiners who feel slighted. Just what you want coaching on your team.
HellToupee
Footballguy
HellToupee
Footballguy
Oof didn’t think of this situation. Hopefully Tomlin has already addressed this with them
Desert_Power
Footballguy
The whole beef as I recall it was over Flores wanting Minkah to play SS and LB while Minkah wanted to just play FS. You would assume Tomlin isn't going to just move him around because Flores wants to after making two Pro Bowls at FS.
apalmer
Footballguy
Nothing new--it all started when they acquired a whiner who wanted traded from the Rams because his coach wanted to move him from running back to fullback.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
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apalmer
Footballguy
Nope and neither was Flores. More to the point neither acquisition of a "whiner" caused any damage to "a once proud franchise".
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Ah, got it. I totally missed the sarcasm in your original post, which in retrospect was pretty obvious. Carry on
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
John Mara said he has no intention of ever settling the explosive lawsuit filed against the Giants by Brian Flores, even if offered the opportunity to do so.
“I’m not settling,” Mara, the Giants co-owner, said Sunday from the NFL owners’ meetings. “Because the allegations are false and we’re very comfortable with our hiring process. It was a fair process and we ended up making the decision we made based on a lot of factors, none of which had anything to do with race.”
link
“I’m not settling,” Mara, the Giants co-owner, said Sunday from the NFL owners’ meetings. “Because the allegations are false and we’re very comfortable with our hiring process. It was a fair process and we ended up making the decision we made based on a lot of factors, none of which had anything to do with race.”
link
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
what law do you practice, just curious. you can say no comment and that's cool. do you have client's with Mara money? hope this doesn't come off as snarky, it's elite 8 weekend.
whoknew
Footballguy
Not snarky at all. I work in commercial real estate. So I have some very wealthy clients. And most of them start off saying they won't settle on principle. And in the end, they all make a business decision that a settlement is the safer, better outcome.
Again, I could be wrong. Maybe Mara won't settle. Its certainly possible. But I just will be surprised if he wants to actually go through discovery and depositions and then take the risk of trial.
Agreed. One of my close friends is an attorney and he says the same thing.
It's funny as he went to Vanderbilt and was a manager on the football team. He said "We were the homecoming opponent on half of our SEC games. It was a good lesson on 'moral victories'."
He says nobody wants to settle at first. But it's often the smart move.
However, Mara is different for a couple of reasons.
He's got more money than the average person in this. And what he's being accused of is particularly ugly.
And lastly, most of these "I won't settle" comments are made in private. Once it becomes a public conversation, things can change.
Like anything, we'll see.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Goodkodycutter said:
Wilks trying to ensure he never gets fired again, without a huge safety net waiting
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Ruffrodys05
IBL Representative
I believe there always has been, contrary to what a lot of folks think. When things get swept under the rug for so long and aren't visible on a day-to-day basis people tend not to notice. Then when the carpet is pulled up, they have trouble accepting that all that dirt has been under there all that time. At least, until they're forced to clean it all up.
Mularky, who was hired instead for Horton, backed up just about everything Horton said.
timschochet
Footballguy
I thought so too but we seem to be nearly alone in this thread. Read some of the earlier posts attacking Flores every which way they can.
Ruffrodys05
IBL Representative
My point is that there appears to be definitely more to this than meets the naked eye. If this lawsuit is what it takes to flesh out the greater truth I'm all for it. Has there been some kind of huge conspiracy within the NFL to discriminate against black and POC head coaching candidates? I just don't know. I think it's a question worth exploring more though and this lawsuit seems to have enough legs to actually get some answers. Then again, maybe not. It doesn't appear to be going away though.
On a personal note, as an NFL fan and an even bigger fan of the Eagles, I had no issues when they hired Ray Rhodes to be their head coach and I had high hopes for him. It didn't quite work out though. As a child I never understood the reluctance of teams to put black QB's in starting positions. When the Eagles started Randall Cunningham I was very enthused. I never bought into the stories of a lack of intelligence when it came to him. I always believed his issues in Philadelphia stemmed from a lack of position specific coaching. One of the decisions I thought did him a great disservice was to never replace his QB coach after his first full season. Buddy Ryan had more important things to deal with apparently than hire someone to coach up his ultimate weapon.
Yenrub
Footballguy
Here is a link to audio from Mularky
https://twitter.com/MySportsUpdate/status/1512108168037507073?s=20&t=LQbIz8DYHxX40oRGndrJCw
BladeRunner
Footballguy
And here I thought we were building upon a new relationship together and you had to go and admit to this.
This changes EVERYTHING.
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Ruffrodys05
IBL Representative
I'll have you note that is the first laugh out loud moment I've had today. Thanks!And here I thought we were building upon a new relationship together and you had to go and admit to this.
This changes EVERYTHING.
In addition, it was so well played that it caused me to use the laughing emoji for the first time ever on these boards.
Kudos Blade
jm192
Footballguy
Does being fired after a single season only happen because of skin color?
No white coaches were ever fired after 1 season?
Is 3-13 bad enough to be fired?
In the case of Horton claiming Mularkey was already promised the job--it's been said 100 times, but this happens at every job. And it's not based on race. According to USA Today, the Titans had already satisfied the Rooney rule. Horton has been the DB coach for multiple NFL teams. He's had two defensive coordinator jobs. But the WFT fired him after 1 year, so let's ignore all of the opportunities he's had in the NFL and cry racism?
No white coaches were ever fired after 1 season?
Is 3-13 bad enough to be fired?
In the case of Horton claiming Mularkey was already promised the job--it's been said 100 times, but this happens at every job. And it's not based on race. According to USA Today, the Titans had already satisfied the Rooney rule. Horton has been the DB coach for multiple NFL teams. He's had two defensive coordinator jobs. But the WFT fired him after 1 year, so let's ignore all of the opportunities he's had in the NFL and cry racism?
Rich Conway
Footballguy
All of these are good questions. That said, I would hope that the attorneys in question have made the participants aware that "I'm minority = racism" isn't going to be enough to get it done, and that they would need something substantive. We may never really know if there is anything substantive, as this may settle without public disclosure.jm192 said:
jm192
Footballguy
I could be way off base.
But it feels like the goal is to piece together a narrative using multiple black coaches that have an example of feeling they were treated poorly. I don't think it's "I'm black so this is racist."
I think it's: look at this pattern. Black coach, fired after 1 year. Black DB coach--fired after one year (but let's ignore the fact that multiple teams have given him chances. Some teams have even hired him multiple times).
The "sham interviews" I struggle with it. I can see being super upset by it. Do I think it's discrimination to interview someone you aren't going to hire? No.
Is it discrimination to interview a black man you don't intend to hire to meet the Rooney Rule? I guess I don't know. But it seems that this is all being caused by an affirmative action policy working out poorly. And it's hard for me to get behind the idea that an affirmative action with the intent of improving diversity--is actually discriminatory.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
I think the Rooney Rule is well intentioned but ultimately not beneficial. I also think that any team who so blatantly admits to breaking the Rooney Rule is stupid and deserves to be punished just for being that stupid.
And honestly, I think the biggest indictment in this whole thing is on the GMs and owners in the league for being bad at what they do. If I were looking for a new GM or Head Coach I’d interview like 20 people all with an open mind. Obviously some folks have pre-existing relationships that are going to create some favorites, but not being open minded and truly searching for the best person is foolishness.
I’ll relate a similar story where I have personal experience.
The pastor of our church left rather abruptly. Our youth pastor was getting older and his leadership abilities and career path were moving him in the direction of being a lead pastor. I was one of the elders and ultimately in charge of hiring the new lead pastor. I had also become very good friends with our youth pastor. Most people’s assumption was that we would do the easy thing and simply make the youth pastor the lead pastor. Instead, we formed a search team and poured over resumes, had some phone conversations, and interviewed other candidates actively looking for someone who we thought could be a better fit for the criteria that we had established as being what we wanted in a pastor. We interviewed our youth pastor last and did decide that he was legitimately the best fit for what we wanted and it turned out to be a great decision.
But we didn’t simply do the easy thing and default him into it. We actively searched out other candidates to legitimately see if we could find someone we felt was even better than what we had. Sure, we knew we already liked our youth pastor and thought he could be a good fit, but knew that we hadn’t done this before and wanted to make sure that we were doing what was absolutely best for us and not missing out just because the other way would have been a lot easier due to familiarity.
And honestly, I think the biggest indictment in this whole thing is on the GMs and owners in the league for being bad at what they do. If I were looking for a new GM or Head Coach I’d interview like 20 people all with an open mind. Obviously some folks have pre-existing relationships that are going to create some favorites, but not being open minded and truly searching for the best person is foolishness.
I’ll relate a similar story where I have personal experience.
The pastor of our church left rather abruptly. Our youth pastor was getting older and his leadership abilities and career path were moving him in the direction of being a lead pastor. I was one of the elders and ultimately in charge of hiring the new lead pastor. I had also become very good friends with our youth pastor. Most people’s assumption was that we would do the easy thing and simply make the youth pastor the lead pastor. Instead, we formed a search team and poured over resumes, had some phone conversations, and interviewed other candidates actively looking for someone who we thought could be a better fit for the criteria that we had established as being what we wanted in a pastor. We interviewed our youth pastor last and did decide that he was legitimately the best fit for what we wanted and it turned out to be a great decision.
But we didn’t simply do the easy thing and default him into it. We actively searched out other candidates to legitimately see if we could find someone we felt was even better than what we had. Sure, we knew we already liked our youth pastor and thought he could be a good fit, but knew that we hadn’t done this before and wanted to make sure that we were doing what was absolutely best for us and not missing out just because the other way would have been a lot easier due to familiarity.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
I agree with this entire post, and it's why I started a thread before this story even broke about how NFL teams are just bad at hiring. The racism is a part of that, but it's far from the whole story.
I think something like the Rooney Rule could work in a situation where owners and GMs are aware that they may suffer from implicit biases (as do we all) and welcome nudges that can help them overcome those biases. But if we're at the point where teams regard it as a silly rule that they can circumvent by holding sham interviews, it's probably not going to do any good. Except they won't get rid of it because that would be viewed as a "retreat" on equity in hiring, so I would expect even more sham interviews going forward. Maybe they can figure out a way to stop those, but I doubt it. If a team wants to violate the spirit of the rule while following the letter, they'll most likely find a way to do so.
Anyway, as I stated previously in this thread, what bothers me the most about the whole situation is that I don't think Black coaches get a fair shake, either in the hiring process or once they get the job. I can't prove that conclusively, and I have no idea how we go about addressing the problem, but IMO it's beyond obvious that it exists.
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Summer Wheat
Footballguy
timschochet said:
More job security for sure.
djmich
Footballguy
It might be more effective to get rid of the rule and make owners take implicit bias training.
The rule as designed is doing what it can do.
djmich
Footballguy
The difference being that front offices already have a wealth of information about and likely experiences with pastors across the country. 90% of the screening process is essentially already done with depth. They are not simply hiring the junior pastor they already know in their organization at the exclusion of diligence on external candidates.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
I think you're being sarcastic, but in case you're not, I recall seeing research showing IBT doesn't actually work (I believe this was in the context of reducing racial incidents with police). I certainly wouldn't expect these Titans of Industry types to be very open to new ideas.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Has anyone asked why the players don't reflect the head coach pool? Or the population % by race of the USA?
Why do coaches have to reflect he player pool? Who draws these lines in the sand that X must make up Y percent? Who gets to determine X and Y and WHY should they?
Why do coaches have to reflect he player pool? Who draws these lines in the sand that X must make up Y percent? Who gets to determine X and Y and WHY should they?
djmich
Footballguy
I wasn’t being sarcastic. I’d generally agree that for example the training is not going to “unmake” a racist and be open to that. But what it should do is help them see where implicit bias exists and how to identify their own biases (some of which they may not realize).
I happen to think most owners are not racists, that they aren’t intentionally steering away from minorities, that the current NFL minority coaching situation is mostly candidate pool driven but not all of it and the training would help. I think the Rooney Rule helps too, but you have to accept that some owners already have “their man” and that doesn’t make them racist or nefarious or Ill intended.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Interesting. I take kind of a different route but end up in roughly the same area code.
My guess is that your average NFL owner is no more or no less racist than others in their demographic of 70-something white male billionaires, which is to say, they're not putting on Klan hoods, but they also probably wouldn't be too thrilled if their daughter brought a Black guy home. Like you, I don't think they're being intentionally discriminatory, but I think the net effect of the biases they have probably makes it harder for Black coaches to get hired and keep their jobs. I've also observed during my career that people who have succeeded in business tend to view themselves as masters of all the nuts and bolts of running an organization. So they likely assume they are above average when it comes to hiring and managing employees, and don't take well to outside nudges like the Rooney Rule or any hypothetical bias training they might receive.
I also agree with you that zeroing in on "their man" doesn't necessarily mean they're being racist, but I do think in most cases it's a sign of a sub-optimal hiring process. The fact that it ends up hurting the prospect of minority coaches is symptomatic of a larger problem of insular thinking, overconfidence and a refusal to perform due diligence.
timschochet
Footballguy
This is a losing fight for you. As it should be. The NFL, to their credit, will eventually give in.
I agree with BladeRunner here. Most NFL head coaches were not NFL players. The pool that NFL head coaches are drawn from is not the pool of NFL players. There's nothing weird about the idea that NFL head coaches resemble the country as a whole in their racial demographic characteristics more than they resemble NFL players. And given that players generally make more money than coaches do, it's not necessarily a bad thing that African-Americans are more overrepresented among the ranks of players than they are among the ranks of coaches.
I don't have an opinion on the strength of Flores's claims in general. But on that one statistical point -- the percentage of black coaches is much lower than the percentage of black players, therefore racial discrimination -- I think the argument is very weak.
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timschochet
Footballguy
I don’t think they’re arguing that it’s “therefore racial discrimination.” It’s actually simpler than that: the players that are black want to see more black coaches. Black people in general want to see more black coaches. That’s their position. I think they’ll get what they want, eventually.
djmich
Footballguy
Aren’t you arguing it is racial discrimination? Isn’t Flores arguing it’s racial discrimination?
The class action lawsuit brought by Flores and others doesn't include a cause of action for wanting to see more black coaches. It includes a cause of action for racial discrimination.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
In a similar vein, I've long maintained that Trump is no more racist than any other 1970s Queens slumlord, which is to say he's racist AF.
timschochet
Footballguy
He’s arguing that he was racially discriminated against. He has specific claims. That’s different from the more general statement that Maurile was making if I understood him correctly.
djmich
Footballguy
Weren't you arguing it is racial discrimination? This is such a weird circle.
Maurile posted a fact pattern that imo doesn't say there is or isn't discrimination, but that the fact that the players are black and the coaches are not is not meaningful in itself as most white coaches are not drawn from the player pool.
So you then submitted that this wasn't about discrimination for the players. So now are you also saying this isn't about discrimination for you too? But rather you think we should be supportive of people who are predominately one color requiring that the people they work with in an organization look like them is cool?
timschochet
Footballguy
OK we’re talking about two different things:
1. Many blacks believe there aren’t enough black coaches. I agree with them. Maybe it’s because of racial discrimination, maybe it isn’t, I don’t really care either way. I think there should be more black coaches. @BladeRunner offered his opinion that it doesn’t matter how many black coaches there are. @Maurile Tremblay wrote that he agreed with BladeRunner but then went on to assert that you couldn’t use the lack of black coaches to argue racial discrimination. I responded to that, offering my opinion that it doesn’t matter if it’s racial discrimination or not.
2. Brian Flores, and those who have joined him in these lawsuits, have very specific complaints about how they were treated. They are basing the lawsuit on those specific complaints, and not on the overall number of black coaches.
