Calling out help from Sharks (1 Viewer)

[Marc Levin]

Even if Zeroue does get recieving yards you can't ignore the fact (full backs included) Oak had 101 receptions coming out of the backfield for 700 yds. Give 400 to Jordan, 200 to Zeroue, and give 100 to any of the fullback Crocket...etc.

My main contention is that you flip these numbers. Until I hear some training camp noise about how these guys are used, my inclination is to believe Jordan is the runner and Zereoue is the pass catcher.As I recall from last year, Turner was not shy about spreading those receiving numbers out to all the backs.

 

[Marc Levin]

As true is your last statement may be, we do not know if Zeroue is a better reicieving back then Jordan. Only time will tell.

Your statement is true, however, Zereoue is a known commodity - and is known to be a really good asset - as a receiving back. Jordan is a complete unknown as a receiver.Consequently, the conservative, and more reasoned, approach is to anticipate Z getting more receiving numbers than Jordan.

 

[Marc Levin]

On a side note, how in the word is this thread still alive?

I was just going to post the same thing.

Because both players have significant risks involved you could argue for one or the other until you're blue in the face...and apparently a few have decided to do so. :blueface:

Well needless to say I have certainly found this thread to be enertaining.

Me too - though I have found this thread in particular to be an excellent exercise in seeing how some people do projections.

 

[Chaka]

On a side note, how in the word is this thread still alive?

I was just going to post the same thing.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Yuds, you posted projections for Lamont at his point in time, howabout for Brown?This topic has been more concentrated on Lamont thus far and I am curious as to what Chris Brown has in store. The only topics that ever really come up in regards to Brown are injuries and his up-right running style. We all know that Brown has had his share of injuries, but can we look past that and imagine that he has a fairly healthy 2005-06 campaign so we can talk about other things pertaining to Brown, other than his injuries or style of running.

 

[cstu]

On a side note, how in the word is this thread still alive?

I was just going to post the same thing.

Because both players have significant risks involved you could argue for one or the other until you're blue in the face...and apparently a few have decided to do so. :blueface:

Well needless to say I have certainly found this thread to be enertaining.

Me too - though I have found this thread in particular to be an excellent exercise in seeing how some people do projections.

I have a feeling that the Magic 8 Ball has a part in some of them.

 

[David Yudkin]

Yuds, you posted projections for Lamont at his point in time, how about for Brown?

This topic has been more concentrated on Lamont thus far and I am curious as to what Chris Brown has in store. The only topics that ever really come up in regards to Brown are injuries and his up-right running style.

We all know that Brown has had his share of injuries, but can we look past that and imagine that he has a fairly healthy 2005-06 campaign so we can talk about other things pertaining to Brown, other than his injuries or style of running.

Last year, I take credit for lauching the FBG hype for Brown. The LHUCKS debates are Shark Pool folk lore, but I actually started pimping Brown in the Daily Updates as early as last April when it became clear to me that Eddie George was not going to remain a Titan.What's interesting about this particular thread is that I don't see either Brown or Jordan as the long term option at running for either team. The Titans could very easily answer which guy will be more valuable if they take one of the premier RB with their first pick.

I have not been able to follow what the Titans are thinking about Brown, but I have not heard them say that Brown will be their guy for years to come and they are totally sold on him as their featured back. When NFL franchises aren't pimping their players, I have a hard time attaching myself to them as a fantasy player.

My concern for Brown this year is that I do not have high hopes for Tennessee this season. They had to jettison multiple starters in a salary cap amputation effort, and as many others have indicated there are holes on both offense and defense to go along with potential health concerns to Steve McNair.

How this will impact Brown is a good question, and one that pre-NFL draft day is really hard to fully understand. I happen to think that if the Titans engage in an arial assault to try to combat what may very well be a porous defense, they will need oxygen to keep their defenders breathing with the heavy workload they would be subjected to.

That leads me to think that the team will try to establish the run and keep their defense off of the field. How successful they will be in that regard is where the $64,000 question arises.

Brown had 6 games with 100+ rushing yards in 11 starts. I would think that he should be in the same ballpark and would pencil him in for 90 yards rushing and 15 yards receiving on average per game.

Overall, I think the Titans may be more inclined to slip on offense and score fewer points (just a feeling--no evidence to go on), and TD may be hard to come by. To that end, I suppose Brown might be good for 0.5 TD per game played.

Combining that, that leaves us with 105 total yards and 0.5 TD per game played for Brown. That's 13.5 fantasy ppg--which would rank him in the bottom of the Top 10 if he played all 16 games.

Since my crystal ball I used for injuries is currently in the shop getting repaired, I will just take a guess that Brown will play in 13.5 games and end up with around 180-185 fantasy points. For yearend rankings, that would put him in the same bandwidth I predicted Jordan would be in.

Since Brown would be scoring similar points in fewer games, I would be more inclined to have Brown (if my numbers played out that way).

Jordan will likely play for a more potent offense than Brown will, but that could help Brown and hurt Jordan. We already know that Moss is a playmaker, and Porter has done a decent job in finding the end zone. Last year, Bennett had a handful of monster games, but who else on Tennessee is going to get in the end zone.

Long story short, I wouldn't want either of these backs as my #1 RB unlike it was a 16-team league and was assured of having a top flight QB or WR to go with them.

On paper, I think it appears that Jordan's ceiling may be higher than Brown's, but I am not sure that things will play out that way. If you do the math, not everyon on Oakland will have their production soar based on Randy Moss and a mediocre defense.

I suspect that Jordan will be hyped up the ying yang and will get drafted earlier than Brown will, so by default that would gravitate me to Brown--especially if they project out to similar numbers. I would not be shocked by late August for Jordan to be a Top 15 fantasy pick, which to me is drafting with blinders on and going on a lot of faith.

That's my 0.02 in April, my opinion my change closer to September. If the Titans draft a RB early in a few days, this whole post goes out the window . . .

 

[Marc Levin]

On a side note, how in the word is this thread still alive?

I was just going to post the same thing.

Because both players have significant risks involved you could argue for one or the other until you're blue in the face...and apparently a few have decided to do so. :blueface:

Well needless to say I have certainly found this thread to be enertaining.

Me too - though I have found this thread in particular to be an excellent exercise in seeing how some people do projections.

I have a feeling that the Magic 8 Ball has a part in some of them.

Along with a lot of high hopes for the Raiders run game. I don't dispute it'll improve, but I can't see it rising very far into the top 3/4 of the league (IOW, I see the Raiders finishing as the #20 or so rushing team - at best)Friday - I think I posted my Brown predictions back on page one, but I simply assert that 14 games from Brown will be greater than 16 from Jordan, and there is no guarantee that Brown will get injured or that Jordan will stay healthy.

Nevertheless, while I don't normally project injuries, I predict Brown will miss the equivelant of 2 or 3 games this year - he just seems to always take dings that either take him out of a game he is in, and/or keep him out the following week. But, he DOES play on his injuries - and he plays well with them - always has.

He's a very tough kid, just a bit fragile (not an oxymoron).

 

[Marc Levin]

Last year, I take credit for lauching the FBG hype for Brown. The LHUCKS debates are Shark Pool folk lore, but I actually started pimping Brown in the Daily Updates as early as last April when it became clear to me that Eddie George was not going to remain a Titan.

Nice post, David - you still have a regular job, right?I will add in here that I have been pimping Brown since he was drafted - hey LHUCKS:

 

[jurb26]

On a side note, how in the word is this thread still alive?

I was just going to post the same thing.

Because both players have significant risks involved you could argue for one or the other until you're blue in the face...and apparently a few have decided to do so. :blueface:

Well needless to say I have certainly found this thread to be enertaining.

Me too - though I have found this thread in particular to be an excellent exercise in seeing how some people do projections.

I have a feeling that the Magic 8 Ball has a part in some of them.

Along with a lot of high hopes for the Raiders run game. I don't dispute it'll improve, but I can't see it rising very far into the top 3/4 of the league (IOW, I see the Raiders finishing as the #20 or so rushing team - at best)Friday - I think I posted my Brown predictions back on page one, but I simply assert that 14 games from Brown will be greater than 16 from Jordan, and there is no guarantee that Brown will get injured or that Jordan will stay healthy.

Nevertheless, while I don't normally project injuries, I predict Brown will miss the equivelant of 2 or 3 games this year - he just seems to always take dings that either take him out of a game he is in, and/or keep him out the following week. But, he DOES play on his injuries - and he plays well with them - always has.

He's a very tough kid, just a bit fragile (not an oxymoron).

I don't know if your saying 3/4 as a fraction or 3-4 in your post. But 2 questions for you.1. Is Oak getting into the top 75% of the league in rushing that hard to believe?

2. Who in the worls has been calling them a top 3 or 4 rushing O fot this year?

I hardly think projections of around 1500-1700 yards and 10-12 TDs would put them there. As amatter of fact last year these kind of numbers woul have ranked them 16th in TDs and no better than 21st in yds.

 

[Marc Levin]

On a side note, how in the word is this thread still alive?

I was just going to post the same thing.

Because both players have significant risks involved you could argue for one or the other until you're blue in the face...and apparently a few have decided to do so. :blueface:

Well needless to say I have certainly found this thread to be enertaining.

Me too - though I have found this thread in particular to be an excellent exercise in seeing how some people do projections.

I have a feeling that the Magic 8 Ball has a part in some of them.

Along with a lot of high hopes for the Raiders run game. I don't dispute it'll improve, but I can't see it rising very far into the top 3/4 of the league (IOW, I see the Raiders finishing as the #20 or so rushing team - at best)Friday - I think I posted my Brown predictions back on page one, but I simply assert that 14 games from Brown will be greater than 16 from Jordan, and there is no guarantee that Brown will get injured or that Jordan will stay healthy.

Nevertheless, while I don't normally project injuries, I predict Brown will miss the equivelant of 2 or 3 games this year - he just seems to always take dings that either take him out of a game he is in, and/or keep him out the following week. But, he DOES play on his injuries - and he plays well with them - always has.

He's a very tough kid, just a bit fragile (not an oxymoron).

I don't know if your saying 3/4 as a fraction or 3-4 in your post. But 2 questions for you.1. Is Oak getting into the top 75% of the league in rushing that hard to believe?

2. Who in the worls has been calling them a top 3 or 4 rushing O fot this year?

I hardly think projections of around 1500-1700 yards and 10-12 TDs would put them there. As amatter of fact last year these kind of numbers woul have ranked them 16th in TDs and no better than 21st in yds.

I was 100 percent clear in my post.I said I figure them to finish around 20 in rushing, at best, which would place them barely into the top 75% of the league (since 24th best rushing team is the 75% cutoff)

Yes, I think it is at least a moderate stretch to expect the absolute worst rushing team last year to leap into the middle of the pack.

It is certainly equally realistic for me to project them as the 24th best rushing team as it is for you to predict them finishing between 16 - 20 rushing.

BTW, the fact that 10-12 TDs rushing AS A TEAM would have placed #16 last year convinces me even more that you all are way off on how many RUSHING TDs Jordan will get. IMO, if the Raiders make the leap to #16 in rushing TDs and place in the 10-12 rushing TD range AS A TEAM, Jordan will NOT have 9 of those rushing TDs.

 

[jurb26]

On a side note, how in the word is this thread still alive?

I was just going to post the same thing.

Because both players have significant risks involved you could argue for one or the other until you're blue in the face...and apparently a few have decided to do so. :blueface:

Well needless to say I have certainly found this thread to be enertaining.

Me too - though I have found this thread in particular to be an excellent exercise in seeing how some people do projections.

I have a feeling that the Magic 8 Ball has a part in some of them.

Along with a lot of high hopes for the Raiders run game. I don't dispute it'll improve, but I can't see it rising very far into the top 3/4 of the league (IOW, I see the Raiders finishing as the #20 or so rushing team - at best)Friday - I think I posted my Brown predictions back on page one, but I simply assert that 14 games from Brown will be greater than 16 from Jordan, and there is no guarantee that Brown will get injured or that Jordan will stay healthy.

Nevertheless, while I don't normally project injuries, I predict Brown will miss the equivelant of 2 or 3 games this year - he just seems to always take dings that either take him out of a game he is in, and/or keep him out the following week. But, he DOES play on his injuries - and he plays well with them - always has.

He's a very tough kid, just a bit fragile (not an oxymoron).

I don't know if your saying 3/4 as a fraction or 3-4 in your post. But 2 questions for you.1. Is Oak getting into the top 75% of the league in rushing that hard to believe?

2. Who in the worls has been calling them a top 3 or 4 rushing O fot this year?

I hardly think projections of around 1500-1700 yards and 10-12 TDs would put them there. As amatter of fact last year these kind of numbers woul have ranked them 16th in TDs and no better than 21st in yds.

I was 100 percent clear in my post.I said I figure them to finish around 20 in rushing, at best, which would place them barely into the top 75% of the league (since 24th best rushing team is the 75% cutoff)

Yes, I think it is at least a moderate stretch to expect the absolute worst rushing team last year to leap into the middle of the pack.

It is certainly equally realistic for me to project them as the 24th best rushing team as it is for you to predict them finishing between 16 - 20 rushing.

BTW, the fact that 10-12 TDs rushing AS A TEAM would have placed #16 last year convinces me even more that you all are way off on how many RUSHING TDs Jordan will get. IMO, if the Raiders make the leap to #16 in rushing TDs and place in the 10-12 rushing TD range AS A TEAM, Jordan will NOT have 9 of those rushing TDs.

Well Marc, I don't know how many times I have to go over this part for you, but I have stated SEVERAL times now that my estimation of 10 TDs for Jordan is a team estimate for now. I'm not sure who else will factor into the running game so I just placed them all under Jordan's total for now as he is the only rushing option I am certian will get work on a regualr basis adn I see no validity to a goaline RB other than him. Of course I realize this is highly unlikely, but I figure Oak will be in the 8-12 TD range on the ground and I think that is a modest projection with their upgrades on O.

 

[Marc Levin]

BTW, the fact that 10-12 TDs rushing AS A TEAM would have placed #16 last year convinces me even more that you all are way off on how many RUSHING TDs Jordan will get. IMO, if the Raiders make the leap to #16 in rushing TDs and place in the 10-12 rushing TD range AS A TEAM, Jordan will NOT have 9 of those rushing TDs.

Well Marc, I don't know how many times I have to go over this part for you, but I have stated SEVERAL times now that my estimation of 10 TDs for Jordan is a team estimate for now.

A few more times, evidently, I'm kind of below average intelligence.My guess is that you either misread the bolded part, or you took very personally the part after I said "IMO."

I put your prediction of the Raiders feasibly having 10-12 rushing TDs into perspective regarding Jordan for anyone besides you and me still reading this.

You responded to an earlier post of mine with this statement:

2. Who in the worls has been calling them a top 3 or 4 rushing O fot this year?

which I am still confused about - like I said, I am not the sharpest knife, but I can't find any statements attributable to me that would lead to you asking that question of me.But, anyway, as for the rest of your response:

I'm not sure who else will factor into the running game so I just placed them all under Jordan's total for now as he is the only rushing option I am certian will get work on a regualr basis adn I see no validity to a goaline RB other than him. Of course I realize this is highly unlikely, but I figure Oak will be in the 8-12 TD range on the ground and I think that is a modest projection with their upgrades on O.

Completely agree. That's a modest projection of total rushing TDs, and not out of line with what I would predict at this point.

 

[jurb26]

Along with a lot of high hopes for the Raiders run game.  I don't dispute it'll improve, but I can't see it rising very far into the top 3/4 of the league (IOW, I see the Raiders finishing as the #20 or so rushing team - at best)

No hard feelings, I simply missunderstood what this portion of your post ment apparently. I just wasn't sure if you were saying that they would not be a top 3 or 4 run game or simply be in the top 3/4. It was the "very far" part that threw me a bit. I thought by very far you were implying some of us thought them to become a top 3 or 4 run game.

 

[Marc Levin]

Along with a lot of high hopes for the Raiders run game.  I don't dispute it'll improve, but I can't see it rising very far into the top 3/4 of the league (IOW, I see the Raiders finishing as the #20 or so rushing team - at best)

No hard feelings, I simply missunderstood what this portion of your post ment apparently. I just wasn't sure if you were saying that they would not be a top 3 or 4 run game or simply be in the top 3/4. It was the "very far" part that threw me a bit. I thought by very far you were implying some of us thought them to become a top 3 or 4 run game.

Gotcha - now your other comment about the 3/4 or 3-4 thing makes sense - see, I is not so smart as others is.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

I hoheartedly eat crow on my ranking of Lamont Jordan.

 

[Phlash]

Chris Brown - Run It

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I predict that Jordan will put up better numbers, and I don't even think it will be close.  Brown is an explosive back, but they are a pass first team that will be behind a lot, and he has shown that his upright running style leads him to nagging injuries.  Lamont is bigger, faster, and more instintive while running, and is also a much better receiver.  He will be playing in a better offense, and the Raiders will be ahead a lot more often than the Titans.  Norv Turner has a talent for finding runners that fit well into his system, and I think Jordan will be a top 10 back this season.

Says the LaMont Jordan owner... how about a little objectivity, homer? :rotflmao:Titans are a pass-first team huh? Eddie George must have sucked then.

Jordan is faster and more instinctive than Brown? And you know this from watching him play so much these past 4 years?

The Raiders have a better offense than the Titans? The Raiders (did) have the #7, the Titans #6. Boy, you're right, the Raiders are far better...

Lamont Jordan will be a Top 10 back? Tell that to (in no given order)...

Tomlinson

Alexander

Holmes

McGahee

A. Green

Portis

D. Davis

J. Lewis

K. Jones

Holmes

Dillon

J. Jones

McAllister

Bell

C. Brown

R. Johnson

Henry (should he get traded)

Barber

S. Jackson

Westbrook

Martin

Taylor

Kelfisto should eat some crow as well.... lol

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

If Chris Brown and Lamont Jordan play the same amount of games, and Jordan outproduces him, I'll leave this site and never return.

This one takes the cake. Both C. Brown and L. Jordan played in 14 games this season. Eat crow..... lol

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

If Chris Brown and Lamont Jordan play the same amount of games, and Jordan outproduces him, I'll leave this site and never return.

This one takes the cake. Both C. Brown and L. Jordan played in 14 games this season. Eat crow..... lol

Bump for Kel.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

If Chris Brown and Lamont Jordan play the same amount of games, and Jordan outproduces him, I'll leave this site and never return.

This one takes the cake. Both C. Brown and L. Jordan played in 14 games this season. Eat crow..... lol

Bump for Kel.

Who's Kel?

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

If Chris Brown and Lamont Jordan play the same amount of games, and Jordan outproduces him, I'll leave this site and never return.

This one takes the cake. Both C. Brown and L. Jordan played in 14 games this season. Eat crow..... lol

Bump for Kel.

Who's Kel?

Kel Fisto was heavily involved in this debate if you look back around page 2-4 of this thread and was saying how C. Brown was going to beat Jordan and blah blah blah. Now I would love for him to come out and eat his crow as well. Especially his post pretaining to never coming to this site again if the 2 played the same amount of games and Jordan beat Brown. That is a major case of eatting crow.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

If Chris Brown and Lamont Jordan play the same amount of games, and Jordan outproduces him, I'll leave this site and never return.

This one takes the cake. Both C. Brown and L. Jordan played in 14 games this season. Eat crow..... lol

Bump for Kel.

Who's Kel?

Kel Fisto was heavily involved in this debate if you look back around page 2-4 of this thread and was saying how C. Brown was going to beat Jordan and blah blah blah. Now I would love for him to come out and eat his crow as well. Especially his post pretaining to never coming to this site again if the 2 played the same amount of games and Jordan beat Brown. That is a major case of eatting crow.

You mean KIT FISTO.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

If Chris Brown and Lamont Jordan play the same amount of games, and Jordan outproduces him, I'll leave this site and never return.

This one takes the cake. Both C. Brown and L. Jordan played in 14 games this season. Eat crow..... lol

Bump for Kel.

Who's Kel?

Kel Fisto was heavily involved in this debate if you look back around page 2-4 of this thread and was saying how C. Brown was going to beat Jordan and blah blah blah. Now I would love for him to come out and eat his crow as well. Especially his post pretaining to never coming to this site again if the 2 played the same amount of games and Jordan beat Brown. That is a major case of eatting crow.

You mean KIT FISTO.

Yes thats it, stupid typo.

 

[Kit Fisto]

You are right, I was wrong. But since you never took me up on quitting the site, I'm not going to.I never imagined Tennessee being that bad on O. I was happy however, to see Brown make it through the season. Maybe we won't see as many "fragile" posts next year.

 

[jurb26]

I think that predicting 10 TDs for Jordan is more than fair. I see him as being anywhere from 8-12 TDs, total TDs that is.

On a side note, how in the word is this thread still alive?

11 Rushing TDs for Oak and 11 total TDs from Jordan.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

You are right, I was wrong. But since you never took me up on quitting the site, I'm not going to.

I never imagined Tennessee being that bad on O. I was happy however, to see Brown make it through the season. Maybe we won't see as many "fragile" posts next year.

Thanks for admitting you ate crow, all I wanted was for you to say "you were right and I was wrong" and I will move along now.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

You are right, I was wrong. But since you never took me up on quitting the site, I'm not going to.

I never imagined Tennessee being that bad on O. I was happy however, to see Brown make it through the season. Maybe we won't see as many "fragile" posts next year.

Thanks for admitting you ate crow, all I wanted was for you to say "you were right and I was wrong" and I will move along now.

This is coming from the guy who talks about the players he called correctly and mysterisouly forgets the ones he was wrong about.

 

[Family Matters]

You are right, I was wrong. But since you never took me up on quitting the site, I'm not going to.

I never imagined Tennessee being that bad on O. I was happy however, to see Brown make it through the season. Maybe we won't see as many "fragile" posts next year.

Just had to read through this because it was a very heated debate. Clearly Kit, you hammerred any one that felt Jordan was a good RB or top 10 or even that he would be better than Brown. Clearly you were wrong. As for your comment " But since you never took me up on quitting the site, I'm not going to", from what I could find there was never a challenge but rather a statement of fact:

"I take my shot at someone who could turn into a stud (Jordan) over someone who will be top 15 at best."

This is laughable. You've got them backwards. Brown is the guy who could turn into a stud, and Jordan is the "Top-15 at best" guy.

Lamont Jordan will never, ever be considered in the Edge, Alexander, Tomlinson, McGahee class, even if he had the ghost of Walter Payton up his butt.

Chris Brown has, at the very least, shown that he can DOMINATE at this level. He has yet to do it consistently, but at least he's actual done it, unlike Lamont Jordan, who has yet to do squat in his 4-year career.

I quit. I gave my opinion. Like I said, if Jordan and Brown play in the same amount of games and Jordan posts better numbers, I'll leave these boards and never return.

If Chris Brown and Lamont Jordan play the same amount of games, and Jordan outproduces him, I'll leave this site and never return

Even so, I still think Brown would outproduce Jordan even if they didn't play the same amount of games.

Brown for 12 games > Jordan for 14.

So you didn't put up a challenge in so much as you said you would do this if it happened. Relax Kit, I'm just busting your chops over this one. No one wants you to leave. It just struck me funny how you were bashing these guys and laid out a claim like this and now it's come back to bite you in the ####.

This is why I don't debate to this level anymore. Noone is right all the time. And even when things don't fit, such as this, they still work out sometimes.

BTW-hats off to Cater Can Fly for his posts on Jordan!

 

[Kit Fisto]

Relax Kit, I'm just busting your chops over this one. No one wants you to leave. It just struck me funny how you were bashing these guys and laid out a claim like this and now it's come back to bite you in the ####.

This is why I don't debate to this level anymore. Noone is right all the time. And even when things don't fit, such as this, they still work out sometimes.

BTW-hats off to Cater Can Fly for his posts on Jordan!

No, you're right too. I can take getting my chops busted, and I'll admit it when I'm wrong. I was bashing because I honesty believed what I wrote. I was really behind Brown, and never saw anyting out of Jordan to suggest he could have a year like he did. I am very surprised at how bad Tennessee turned out to be, and how successful Jordan was.