Can we continue the discussion about masks? (1 Viewer)

[General Malaise]

Yes, I'd like to state for the record that I too am against murder and arson and looting.  

 

[tonydead]

Agree that is what CDC guidelines say and what most states follow.  I think it is wrong and can be shown by cases in Asia, areas in Europe that require masks and NYC cases after massive protesting where protesters were wearing masks (unlike cops but that is a different issue). 

Everyone should wear a mask except when they can be a 100% certain they can do social distancing (hike in woods) but if you are out walking in town or neighborhood you should be wearing a mask.  

ETA - probably ok to have mask around neck and get near someone pull it up.

Ignore CDC and trust internet forum guy's opinion?  I'm not wearing a mask when I'm out walking around my neighborhood, that's silly.  

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Should I be wearing a mask if I ever do some sex again?

I have not heard of respiratory system to reproductive system transmission, just respiratory to respiratory.  I think you are good to go.

 

[tonydead]

Almost all liberals are for wearing masks in public, against looting, against arson and against murder.

BLM should think real hard before they let one of their protests take over a police station again if that's the case.

 

[quick-hands]

Sorry but some of this debate seems so pointless to me. If we were really limiting people’s freedoms- let’s say we discovered, for example, that dogs spread the disease to humans and so we decided that no one could own dogs anymore and everyone had to turn in their dogs- then I could see that before we did that, we would have to be 100% sure we were right. 95% in that instance wouldn’t cut it. We’d need to investigate every discrepancy, every report to make sure before we took such an action. 

But here we’re talking about wearing masks in public. Big effing deal. I read it’s 90% effective in stopping the virus. Ren just linked a story that disputes that. And I don’t care enough to look and see who’s right. Because it’s just not that huge a thing. Just wear one already. 

What if i and my wife and kids already had it?    Do I still need to wear a mask?

 

[Jackstraw]

Yes, agree. My only point was that there are places that are outdoors that masks aren't needed and that our country is large and has a variety of landscapes where a person might be outdoors. On Broadway in NYC, wear masks. Hiking in the woods by yourself, no mask needed. Somewhere in between, there's a line.

I usually go on multiple 10-20 minute walks, either by myself or with the dog, each day in my suburban townhouse neighborhood. I can easily do that without coming within 50 or even 100+ feet of another person. There just aren't that many people outside at any given time. So far, I've been doing those walks without even taking a mask with me. I probably should start to at least have one with me because, yes, there are rare times that I might cross paths at a closer distance of maybe like 20 feet. 

In my neighborhood, I think I've only seen one older Asian woman who always has a mask on outside. There's one particular neighborhood nearby that I drive through a lot that has what I assume is a high immigrant/foreign-born population (mostly East Asian and Middle Eastern and Indian). That neighborhood has noticeably more masks outside, but still less than half of the people. Again, these are suburban neighborhoods with plenty of space and there's really no reason people can't keep their distance on these walks.

As far as I can tell, my county's numbers are looking ok. Pretty much 100% compliance in indoor public spaces (grocery stores, Wal Mart, Target, etc). But, like I said, I don't see much outside. I haven't taken a stroll down any local main streets where there might be a little more pedestrian traffic. Maybe I'll do that soon or at least take a drive through one to see what I see.

I agree. I've walked close to 1000 miles since the beginning on March. Only problem was a lady's dog got loose am was jumping up on me. Suburbs of Wichita. I was really fat. Much less fat now. But I am literally the only one who consistently wears a mask at work. About ten of my friends have weekly indoor ping pong games. Drink and socializing indoors. 

I told my brother in law who plays in the game that I thought they were letting the US down and was told I was like a brownshirt who snitched his neighbors out to the SS. He's one of the people that uses the word sheeple a lot.

I do feel like people who aren't social distancing or wearing masks in public are letting the country down. Is that crazy? Because I feel like I'm the only one of a very few around me who feels that way. Usually when you are the sane one and you think everybody else is crazy that means you are the crazy one. But I don't FEEL crazy.

Again I haven't done a damn thing to my friends except to tell them I don;t think much of their program (and I guess accuse them of a little light treason). Nobody has gone to auschwitz. But reactions have been super outraged. I think its because a hit dogs gonna howl but I get unsure.     

 

[Redwes25]

Ignore CDC and trust internet forum guy's opinion?  I'm not wearing a mask when I'm out walking around my neighborhood, that's silly.  

It could be possible our policies are wrong and we have screwed up our entire response to this virus...  Maybe possible?  

Sad to look at Europe and compare where we are to them.  Compare us to Asia and it is even worse.  Why are we so bad at this?  I think there is one place we can look and see why we have been hit so hard.  The other hardest hit country has the same issue with leadership at the top in responding to this virus. 

Can you see the connection?

 

[Stealthycat]

Good question. A couple options I can think of. Until there’s a vaccine or until we’ve reached herd immunity through infection?
 

here is what I believe

a some point - if we're not already there - everyone has been exposed to covid-19

its very fast moving - its had 5+ months to get through this country 

for those already sick and frail, it add's enough more to be fatal - for most people under 60 years old its no more harmful than the flu season

the numbers are dramatically inflated - for multiple reasons but I believe they are

there is a freak out factor that people cannot escape - 

https://twitter.com/i/status/1277648946337284097

wearing a mask will not stop you from getting a virus and it likely won't stop you from spreading it either - in hospitals, doctors work in very sterile environments and they do wear masks ...as an added precaution but where is the #1 place to get sick ? hospitals .... masks are a means of defense albeit a small one IMO

but my biggest concern is now, every time there is an outbreak of anything, this freak out, shut the world down, wear masks and buy toilet paper fiasco is going to be the norm ..... and that is very very concerning that we as a society can be dominated so easily by an irrational fear

 

[supermike80]

Almost all liberals are for wearing masks in public, against looting, against arson and against murder.

No they are not

 

[Jackstraw]

No they are not

That's ridiculous. 

 

[popeye]

Should I be wearing a mask if I ever do some sex again?

I believe the standard rules apply here.  If in public, yes - especially if you are going to be within 6 ft of someone.

 

[Redwes25]

here is what I believe

a some point - if we're not already there - everyone has been exposed to covid-19

its very fast moving - its had 5+ months to get through this country 

for those already sick and frail, it add's enough more to be fatal - for most people under 60 years old its no more harmful than the flu season

the numbers are dramatically inflated - for multiple reasons but I believe they are

there is a freak out factor that people cannot escape - 

https://twitter.com/i/status/1277648946337284097

wearing a mask will not stop you from getting a virus and it likely won't stop you from spreading it either - in hospitals, doctors work in very sterile environments and they do wear masks ...as an added precaution but where is the #1 place to get sick ? hospitals .... masks are a means of defense albeit a small one IMO

but my biggest concern is now, every time there is an outbreak of anything, this freak out, shut the world down, wear masks and buy toilet paper fiasco is going to be the norm ..... and that is very very concerning that we as a society can be dominated so easily by an irrational fear

I don't know anyone that has died from the flu in my entire life.   I know about a dozen people who have died of this virus. Most of them are older but I lost a friend who was in her 50s.    

Does the flu cause this (my hometown and I personally know Clive who is interviewed)? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSNYnwLH5Q0

Please don't compare this to the flu.

 

[supermike80]

That's ridiculous. 

So is your statement.  If you're going to throw out generalizations, I can too

 

[whoknew]

Yes, I'd like to state for the record that I too am against murder and arson and looting.  

Especially if done without a mask.

 

[timschochet]

It's amazing on every single subject you want to drive the narrative and push your beliefs and wants on everyone.  Every.  Single.  Topic.  

Driving the narrative: does this mean starting the thread? 
Push my beliefs: does this mean stating my opinion? 
So it’s amazing that I start threads and state my opinion? 

 

[timschochet]

What if i and my wife and kids already had it?    Do I still need to wear a mask?

Yes. 

 

[snogger]

But right now, at least in Wisconsin, it is up to counties/cities/businesses to decide which is just a    

For sure.  I am in Dane county.  Have 0 clue why we are doing this county by county BS

Beyound stupid.. but the bickering between Evers and the Republicans have lead us to a "Do nothing and see what happens state" ........

Looks like Dane county has barred indoor drinking at bars

and the county board is thinking of making mask mandatory.

But enforcing it is another thing:

A legal expert with the Wisconsin Counties Association said counties could mandate faces masks, but implementing an order is easier said than done.

"The stakes are high, and if these counties take a position that later on in litigation turns out to be incorrect, then they are going to find themselves with a lot of problems,” said Andy Phillips, General Counsel for WCA.

 

 

[dgreen]

Yes. 

If already had it and have recovered, I'd probably still wear a mask because I think it would make others feel better. But, what's the current evidence about being able to get covid again and spreading it after already having it and recovering? Have there been cases of individuals contracting and spreading it a second time?

 

[OrtonToOlsen]

here is what I believe

wearing a mask will not stop you from getting a virus and it likely won't stop you from spreading it either 

This is false.  

 

[Jackstraw]

No they are not

Half the country wants to wear masks, loot, burn and murder. 

Yep. That's as ridiculous as sounds.  

 

[timschochet]

If already had it and have recovered, I'd probably still wear a mask because I think it would make others feel better. But, what's the current evidence about being able to get covid again and spreading it after already having it and recovering? Have there been cases of individuals contracting and spreading it a second time?

Don’t know. That evidence is very important obviously, but not to the question at hand

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Driving the narrative: does this mean starting the thread? 
Push my beliefs: does this mean stating my opinion? 
So it’s amazing that I start threads and state my opinion? 

No, you basically want to threaten to severely fine people or shame people when they have different views from you.  But nice try.

 

[timschochet]

No, you basically want to threaten to severely fine people or shame people when they have different views from you.  But nice try.

I don’t want to shame anyone. You completely misunderstand me if you think that. 
 

I don’t want to fine anyone either. I want there to be a law and I want everyone to obey the law. Personally I can’t fathom why such a law would be necessary, anymore than there should be a law that says you can’t walk across the freeway. But sadly it IS necessary. 

 

[dgreen]

Don’t know. That evidence is very important obviously, but not to the question at hand

I'm confused. How is that evidence not important to the question at hand, assuming the question at hand is: Should someone who has already had covid wear a mask?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I don’t want to shame anyone. You completely misunderstand me if you think that. 
 

I don’t want to fine anyone either. I want there to be a law and I want everyone to obey the law. Personally I can’t fathom why such a law would be necessary, anymore than there should be a law that says you can’t walk across the freeway. But sadly it IS necessary. 

I gave you a reason that your proposed law was stupid.  Your response was flippant like those people should stay home then as if they are inconveniencing you.  I'm sure you could fathom it if you put more than 4 seconds of thought behind it before posting it

 

[msudaisy26]

here is what I believe

a some point - if we're not already there - everyone has been exposed to covid-19

its very fast moving - its had 5+ months to get through this country 

for those already sick and frail, it add's enough more to be fatal - for most people under 60 years old its no more harmful than the flu season

the numbers are dramatically inflated - for multiple reasons but I believe they are

there is a freak out factor that people cannot escape - 

https://twitter.com/i/status/1277648946337284097

wearing a mask will not stop you from getting a virus and it likely won't stop you from spreading it either - in hospitals, doctors work in very sterile environments and they do wear masks ...as an added precaution but where is the #1 place to get sick ? hospitals .... masks are a means of defense albeit a small one IMO

but my biggest concern is now, every time there is an outbreak of anything, this freak out, shut the world down, wear masks and buy toilet paper fiasco is going to be the norm ..... and that is very very concerning that we as a society can be dominated so easily by an irrational fear

How is this even possible?

The numbers are inflated, but everyone has been exposed or soon will be. 

 

[timschochet]

I'm confused. How is that evidence not important to the question at hand, assuming the question at hand is: Should someone who has already had covid wear a mask?

Because the issue of wearing masks is both too obvious and too minor to allow for carve outs. Until this is over, everybody needs to wear a ####### mask. That’s it. 

 

[timschochet]

I gave you a reason that your proposed law was stupid.  Your response was flippant like those people should stay home then as if they are inconveniencing you.  I'm sure you could fathom it if you put more than 4 seconds of thought behind it before posting it

And my response was that it wasn’t an issue of inconvenience. We need to have everyone on board or it doesn’t work. 

 

[Doug B]

I’ve read the death rate is around 0.26%.  Also that a study found particle transmission through cloth masks to be 97%.

Hope I'm not the first person to ask you to check these links.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

And my response was that it wasn’t an issue of inconvenience. We need to have everyone on board or it doesn’t work. 

And your line of thinking is why you end up with no laws and lots of people not on board.  You could probably get 90% on board if you weren't forcing your views on the entire population.  That's better than nothing.  But there are valid reasons why some can't wear masks every single second they are outside.   

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Because the issue of wearing masks is both too obvious and too minor to allow for carve outs. Until this is over, everybody needs to wear a ####### mask. That’s it. 

Wrong.  Full Stop.  You're wrong and being overly dramatic as always

 

[Doug B]

But there are valid reasons why some can't wear masks every single second they are outside.   

For all intents and purposes ... those asking for the part in red are very few in number (if loud) and can be ignored. There are some situational exceptions, but for the most part ... "every single second they are outside" is a strawman. That's not what's being proposed excepting by a tiny fringe.

====================================================

Cross-posted from the FFA thread, this past Sunday night:

 A few anecdotes regarding people with breathing problems being able to safely wear face coverings for extended periods of time:
 

Rex Chapman
@RexChapman

Public Service Announcement: The more you know — about masks... (Link to 47-second video by asthmatic Emily Lyoness, who wears a face covering 12-14 hours a day on the job - db)

...

Then scroll down, at the same link, in Chapman's feed one tweet to see Emily's second video that she made after being challenged about her oximeter results while being masked. Or click this link to view (54 seconds).

...

Finally, from Boomer's now adult son -- when he refers to "my CF", realize that he is a lifelong cystic fibrosis sufferer:

𝙂𝙐𝙉𝙉𝘼𝙍 𝙀𝙎𝙄𝘼𝙎𝙊𝙉
@G17Esiason

I’ve been wearing an N95 for an hour. The top number (99%) is my oxygen saturation. The bottom is my HR after running up stairs My CF has led to bronchiectasis, extensive airway scarring and multidrug resistant infection in my lungs. If I can breathe with a mask on, so can you!

 

[belljr]

I'm sure this has been posted

https://www.fau.edu/newsdesk/articles/efficacy-facemasks-coronavirus.php

Importantly, uncovered emulated coughs were able to travel noticeably farther than the currently recommended 6-foot distancing guideline. Without a mask, droplets traveled more than 8 feet; with a bandana, they traveled 3 feet, 7 inches; with a folded cotton handkerchief, they traveled 1 foot, 3 inches; with the stitched quilted cotton mask, they traveled 2.5 inches; and with the cone-style mask, droplets traveled about 8 inches.  

 

[Terminalxylem]

I'm assuming nothing.  But feel free to best case scenerio.

Oh, I’m sorry. I thought you said the deaths would come whether herd immunity was reached quickly or slowly. How many more deaths are you willing to accept to reach herd immunity more rapidly?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

For all intents and purposes ... those asking for the part in red are very few in number (if loud) and can be ignored. There are some situational exceptions, but for the most part ... "every single second they are outside" is a strawman. That's not what's being proposed excepting by a tiny fringe.

====================================================

Cross-posted from the FFA thread, this past Sunday night:

 A few anecdotes regarding people with breathing problems being able to safely wear face coverings for extended periods of time:
 

...

Then scroll down, at the same link, in Chapman's feed one tweet to see Emily's second video that she made after being challenged about her oximeter results while being masked. Or click this link to view (54 seconds).

...

Finally, from Boomer's now adult son -- when he refers to "my CF", realize that he is a lifelong cystic fibrosis sufferer:

Love the arrogant schmucks who pull the if they can do something everyone else card as if all people tolerate things the same way.   Instant ignore for a guy with that attitude.

 

[shadrap]

Should I be wearing a mask if I ever do some sex again?

I thought you always did.

 

[ren hoek]

Hope I'm not the first person to ask you to check these links.

Not sure why it does that 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/05/fact-check-cdc-estimates-covid-19-death-rate-0-26/5269331002/

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577

 

[belljr]

I thought you always did.

The zipper mouth really stops the germs

 

[dgreen]

I think two things:

1. Everyone should wear a mask when they leave their home
2. Lockdowns are still the primary way to stop an outbreak.

I don't like the idea of using masks as a replacement for lockdowns.  It's risky.  I don't know of another country that did that, so it's a risky proposition in the middle of a pandemic.  

I thought I heard that Hong Kong did masks without a lockdown with great success.

 

[shadrap]

The zipper mouth really stops the germs

so does an over sized ball gag.

 

[Doug B]

Love the arrogant schmucks who pull the if they can do something everyone else card as if all people tolerate things the same way.   Instant ignore for a guy with that attitude.

There are generally ways around mask or face-covering difficulties. Maybe not 100% of the time ... but it's not like 10% of all adult Americans can't do face coverings.

For one thing, helpful face coverings can vary a lot. For the general public going out for groceries, medicine, and retail ... no one needs a super-tight air-restrictive face covering. There are a wide variety of cloth face coverings available, in many types of fabric and with varying tautness of elastic (and some tie-your-own, as well). Disposable paper 'surgical' masks are similar -- these are starting to get sold in volume at local drugstores, WalMarts, and similar places.

I have also, in recent weeks, begun seeing people wear clear plastic face shields while shopping. Never more than a handful in one store at any one visit, but the increase in face shields is noticeable. Perhaps face shields are being used as an alternative to face coverings to mitigate whatever issues may prevent one from wearing, say, an earloop-type face covering or a gaiter?

 

[tonydead]

It could be possible our policies are wrong and we have screwed up our entire response to this virus...  Maybe possible?  

Sad to look at Europe and compare where we are to them.  Compare us to Asia and it is even worse.  Why are we so bad at this?  I think there is one place we can look and see why we have been hit so hard.  The other hardest hit country has the same issue with leadership at the top in responding to this virus. 

Can you see the connection?

We are the tops in testing numbers by far (besides China) and if you rank the top ten countries by deaths per population we are in the middle, average.  Where are you getting your info?

 

[tonydead]

There are some situational exceptions, but for the most part ... "every single second they are outside" is a strawman. That's not what's being proposed excepting by a tiny fringe.

Apparently it is an enforceable mandate in Washington State.

 

[tonydead]

I agree. I've walked close to 1000 miles since the beginning on March. Only problem was a lady's dog got loose am was jumping up on me. Suburbs of Wichita. I was really fat. Much less fat now. But I am literally the only one who consistently wears a mask at work. About ten of my friends have weekly indoor ping pong games. Drink and socializing indoors. 

I told my brother in law who plays in the game that I thought they were letting the US down and was told I was like a brownshirt who snitched his neighbors out to the SS. He's one of the people that uses the word sheeple a lot.

I do feel like people who aren't social distancing or wearing masks in public are letting the country down. Is that crazy? Because I feel like I'm the only one of a very few around me who feels that way. Usually when you are the sane one and you think everybody else is crazy that means you are the crazy one. But I don't FEEL crazy.

Again I haven't done a damn thing to my friends except to tell them I don;t think much of their program (and I guess accuse them of a little light treason). Nobody has gone to auschwitz. But reactions have been super outraged. I think its because a hit dogs gonna howl but I get unsure.     

Your friends and family are outraged that you go around chastising them? 

 

[tonydead]

Because the issue of wearing masks is both too obvious and too minor to allow for carve outs. Until this is over, everybody needs to wear a ####### mask. That’s it. 

Please update the OP to reflect the fact that this "recommendation" from the CDC is only most important in situations where social distancing can be difficult.  TIA

 

[KarmaPolice]

Please update the OP to reflect the fact that this "recommendation" from the CDC is only most important in situations where social distancing can be difficult.  TIA

So... damn near everywhere I've been inside.  

 

[Doug B]

I’ve read the death rate is around 0.26%.  Also that a study found particle transmission through cloth masks to be 97%.

OK, now that you've provided both links:

1) The "death rate" article in USA Today is equivocal. The CDC's snapshot estimate of 0.26% is not the last word, although it's likely going to be within the same order of magnitude as the actual figure. The more-commonly cited figure of ~1.0% is also a working estimate, or course.

2) The 2014 particle-transmission study you linked compared old-school (like pre-1960) cotton surgical masks with modern disposable medical masks and with two types of N95 masks in medical-use settings as personal-protective equipment (PPE). There's a reason cotton surgical masks went by the wayside for PPE use, as the study makes clear -- particles "stick into" or "penetrate" a cotton surgical mask. Nevertheless, cloth masks can be and have been manufactured differently, with more layers of fabric overlapped and with alternative fabrics altogether aside from cotton. Accordingly, cloth masks for the general public -- outside of medical use -- provide effective source control of virus transmission via exhaled aersosols. The Wikipedia article on "cloth face masks" is actually a good, quick summary read with loads of links to get deeper information, and the opening paragraph is a good sum-up of what cloth masks can be expected to do and also to not do:

Cloth face masks are recommended by public health agencies for disease "source control" in epidemic situations to protect others from virus laden droplets in infected mask wearers' breath, coughs, and sneezes. Because they are less effective than surgical masks or N95 masks in protecting the wearer against viruses, they are not considered to be personal protective equipment by public health agencies. They are used by the general public in household and community settings as perceived protection against both infectious diseases and particulate air pollution.

 

[Doug B]

There are some situational exceptions, but for the most part ... "every single second they are outside" is a strawman. That's not what's being proposed excepting by a tiny fringe.

Apparently it is an enforceable mandate in Washington State.

From the state's website - highlights mine:

Face Masks or Cloth Face Covering

WHEN AM I REQUIRED TO WEAR A FACE MASK OR CLOTH FACE COVERING?

Effective June 26, a statewide order requires individuals to wear a face covering in indoor public spaces such as stores, offices and restaurants. The order also requires face coverings outdoors when you can't stay 6 feet apart from others.

There are exemptions, including people with certain disabilities or health conditions, people who are deaf or hard of hearing, and children under the age of 2. (It's encouraged to have children ages 3-5 wear a covering if possible. Children 5 and older must wear a face covering.) There are also situations when you can remove your face covering, such as when seated at a restaurant or when recreating alone.

You do not need to wear a cloth face covering in your home when you are only with people in your household, or when you are alone in your car. You do not need to wear one when you are outdoors and people are far apart.

 

[dgreen]

Because the issue of wearing masks is both too obvious and too minor to allow for carve outs. Until this is over, everybody needs to wear a ####### mask. That’s it. 

I assume you think carve outs make sense in a world where people will perfectly follow rules but your assumption is people won't follow the rules therefore we need to a zero tolerance policy?

I disagree we can't allow exceptions (I assume that's what carve outs are) in official policies/statements.

 

[Redwes25]

We are the tops in testing numbers by far (besides China) and if you rank the top ten countries by deaths per population we are in the middle, average.  Where are you getting your info?

Look at new cases in these countries (numbers from yesterday) - Italy 142; UK 689; Spain 301; Germany 440; S. Korea 43; China 19; Singapore 246. The good old USA - 46,042

You are wrong on testing as we are still awful - Test per million we are ranked 27th.  So what if we have done the second most as we are the third most populated country in the world.  Of course we have done more testing then a country with a quarter of our population  Reading articles testing capacity we are clearly deficient in the Sunbelt getting hit.  See articles below.

I think you need to wake up on what is going on in this country.

All these numbers are WorldoMeters on cases are from yesterday from WorldoMeters - https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

AZ testing issues - https://www.azcentral.com/get-access/?return=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.azcentral.com%2Fstory%2Fopinion%2Fop-ed%2Flaurieroberts%2F2020%2F07%2F01%2Farizona-remarkably-unprepared-get-covid-19-under-control%2F5356982002%2F

Florida testing issues - https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=newssearch&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj8h4uM_6zqAhUxknIEHVvHDqsQxfQBCEMwBA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fhealth%2Fas-cases-surge-lines-for-covid-19-tests-sometimes-stretch-miles-in-the-summer-heat%2F2020%2F07%2F01%2Ff0951586-ba4b-11ea-80b9-40ece9a701dc_story.html&usg=AOvVaw1y04jT65rfQ1h0_uiqRd7n