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Capella's 24-hour, VERY bigly OH MY GOD HOW DID WE GET HERE thread (1 Viewer)

FreeBaGeL said:
Imagine if Trump had lost Florida early.  Everyone would have turned off their TVs and gone to bed 100% sure of the outcome and then woke up to president Trump.  That would have messed with some people's minds.
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Interesting he did not even need Florida.   I don't think anyone saw that coming.  

 
mr roboto said:
If he succeeds in returning median wage, skilled jobs that can be done without 4 year degrees I have a feeling that he will have a positive impact on the black population and potential that race relations will improve.
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This would be great -- but I don't feel any president can deliver this. There may be another way to lift all boats economically, but bringing back these kinds of jobs exactly in kind doesn't seem feasible.

 
Doug B said:
This would be great -- but I don't feel any president can deliver this. There may be another way to lift all boats economically, but bringing back these kinds of jobs exactly in kind doesn't seem feasible.
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I agree to a point (although the trades are still a tremendous employment opportunity that, by and large) the upper-middle class whites are entirely uninterested in). 

Honestly job training for electric, plumbing, welding, HVAC etc in the inner city combined with incentives to eventually start their own businesses could bring back jobs. 

 
mr roboto said:
Democrats have promised, for 30 years, to be a party that is willing to help the inner cities and black communities yet there seems to be an even greater divide between minority communities and the majority white population regarding economic welfare.  If he succeeds in returning median wage, skilled jobs that can be done without 4 year degrees I have a feeling that he will have a positive impact on the black population and potential that race relations will improve.

I think it's fascinating that Trump won the election promising to return manufacturing and light industrial jobs to disaffected white workers, yet those jobs actually had a much bigger impact on the urban and inner-city blacks than they ever did on urban and rural whites. 
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Trump will do nothing to improve race relations until he owns his own checkered past (Central Park Five, housing discrimination case), forcefully rejects the extremists attacking minorities online and in real life in his name, at least acknowledges that many African-Americans saw his birtherism as racism even if he wants to deny that as a factor in his mind, stops referring to the black community as a monolith that resides in hellish "inner cities," and shows at least some measure of empathy and desire for reconciliation.  These are very easy steps he could take that I think could do wonders to assuage the fear and anger and frustration that many minorities- black and otherwise- feel right now. He could do them in ten minutes.

I have a hard time believing he'll take on the more difficult tasks associated with race relations if he doesn't even bother to take on the easy ones.

 
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TobiasFunke said:
Race relations will not improve until he owns his own checkered past (Central Park Five, housing discrimination case), forcefully rejects the extremist attacking minorities online and in real life in his name, at least acknowledges that many African-Americans saw his birtherism as racism even if he wants to deny that as a factor in his mind, stops referring to the black community as a monolith that resides in hellish "inner cities" and shows at least some measure of empathy and desire for reconciliation.  These are very easy steps he could take that would do wonders to assuage the fear and anger and frustration that many minorities- black and otherwise- feel right now. He could do them in ten minutes.

I have a hard time believing he'll take on the more difficult tasks associated with race relations if he doesn't even bother to take on the easy ones.
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 I don't disagree with you regarding trumps checkered past on race relations but your post typifies the leftist fascination with rhetoric and language versus structural change. 

I'm dismayed that Donald Trump is the voice of the current movement claiming to be a champion of the little guy, yet from my white suburban vantage point, which is admittedly not very personally informed, I would assume black communities would prefer jobs and opportunity over  correct speech patterns online. 

The only real way to improve race relations in this country is to even out the income and education curve so that there is a greater integration of whites, blacks, Latinos, Asians and other groups living together in all  strata of social and community development.   Blacks disproportionately live in economically disadvantaged communities which, by definition, do not contain good paying jobs necessary to allow some of those people to transcend their situation. 

It's actually kind of interesting we don't see more pioneering start up companies intentionally locating in disadvantaged communities and hiring workers who are desperate for decent paying job that may put them on a career track.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
Imagine if Trump had lost Florida early.  Everyone would have turned off their TVs and gone to bed 100% sure of the outcome and then woke up to president Trump.  That would have messed with some people's minds.
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Pretty much, though the time frame of declaring Trump the presumptive winner would actually have been extended into early Wednesday evening -- we'd have had to wait for both Pennsylvania and Michigan to be called ... all the while with Clinton sitting at 261 electoral votes.

 
mr roboto said:
 I don't disagree with you regarding trumps checkered past on race relations but your post typifies the leftist fascination with rhetoric and language versus structural change. 

I'm dismayed that Donald Trump is the voice of the current movement claiming to be a champion of the little guy, yet from my white suburban vantage point, which is admittedly not very personally informed, I would assume black communities would prefer jobs and opportunity over  correct speech patterns online. 

The only real way to improve race relations in this country is to even out the income and education curve so that there is a greater integration of whites, blacks, Latinos, Asians and other groups living together in all  strata of social and community development.   Blacks disproportionately live in economically disadvantaged communities which, by definition, do not contain good paying jobs necessary to allow some of those people to transcend their situation. 

It's actually kind of interesting we don't see more pioneering start up companies intentionally locating in disadvantaged communities and hiring workers who are desperate for decent paying job that may put them on a career track.
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Words matter. They're not all that matter but they definitely matter. A lot.

Hope this helps

 
mr roboto said:
I'm dismayed that Donald Trump is the voice of the current movement claiming to be a champion of the little guy, yet from my white suburban vantage point, which is admittedly not very personally informed, I would assume black communities would prefer jobs and opportunity over  correct speech patterns online. 
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As a white person in a mid-gentrification urban neighborhood I'm really no more qualified to understand what black communities prefer, but the internet can offer some insight. And from what I can tell I think you're severely underestimating Trump's past and the attitudes towards him when you dismiss it as "correct speech patterns." 

Give this stream of tweets a read. It's very well-written and I summarizes perspectives I've read and heard elsewhere about Trump from African-Americans and other minorities.

In any event, I think you're right that actual policy changes can help more than words.  That was not my point.  My point is that words can help a little, and offering them takes almost no time or effort ... so if someone is unwilling to do even that, I doubt they have the commitment and energy needed to take on the much larger effort and challenges they would face in changing policy.

 
mr roboto said:
 It's actually kind of interesting we don't see more pioneering start up companies intentionally locating in disadvantaged communities and hiring workers who are desperate for decent paying job that may put them on a career track.
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I have seen some attempts at this that don't have a lot of success.  The biggest drawbacks to disadvantaged communities is they don't have proper support structures in place to help them along.  People in these communities have difficulty dealing with simple things like being on time, showing up every day, being respectful and grinding it out when they don't feel like it.  Also the drama at home constantly spills over into the workplace and affects their performance.

Companies can't provide the assistance needed and remain profitable.  The only success in this area is really among the non-profit world.  The city I live in has a few truly successful outreaches.  However, there are still a high number of people that can't hold it together or simply don't want to.  The old horse to water analogy is spot on here and the only answer is true cultural change.

 
jerry jones said:
Actions matter a whole lot more....A lot.

hope this helps
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The necessary actions take months or years, hundreds of hours of work, listening to concerns of various constituencies, compromises, negotiations, long nights, attention to detail. 

Words take five minutes.

What makes you think someone is going to do the former if they're unwilling to do the latter?

 
Donald Trump's first priority is deregulating the financial sector :rolleyes:  

Those expecting him to stick up for middle-america are going to be duped....

 
TobiasFunke said:
The necessary actions take months or years, hundreds of hours of work, listening to concerns of various constituencies, compromises, negotiations, long nights, attention to detail. 

Words take five minutes.

What makes you think someone is going to do the former if they're unwilling to do the latter?
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So, in your view all he has to do is say some nice words and that'll do it?

 
TobiasFunke said:
As a white person in a mid-gentrification urban neighborhood I'm really no more qualified to understand what black communities prefer, but the internet can offer some insight. And from what I can tell I think you're severely underestimating Trump's past and the attitudes towards him when you dismiss it as "correct speech patterns." 

Give this stream of tweets a read. It's very well-written and I summarizes perspectives I've read and heard elsewhere about Trump from African-Americans and other minorities.

In any event, I think you're right that actual policy changes can help more than words.  That was not my point.  My point is that words can help a little, and offering them takes almost no time or effort ... so if someone is unwilling to do even that, I doubt they have the commitment and energy needed to take on the much larger effort and challenges they would face in changing policy.
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Thanks for the twitter link. 

 
Walking Boot said:
He could have lost Florida AND Iowa and still won. Jesus. 
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A lot has been made of the polls being wrong. The only thing they got wrong was not allowing for the electoral college enough. Every poll showed overall win %, not how that could break down when divided by each state's majority vote. They overrated her margin of victory in the popular vote just enough to make this possible.

 
Implementing term limits is easy to get through.

- Everyone can have a max of 12 years in the House and another 12 years as a Senator

- Everyone's clock resets to 0 when the law is passed (so the guy who has been there for 40 years still gets his 12)

- Anyone voting no to this triggers an ethics inquiry into who is buying them off

passage rate of 90+%

 
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jerry jones said:
So, in your view all he has to do is say some nice words and that'll do it?
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No.  In my view saying some nice words would be a good start, and if he chooses not to do so I think it's indicative of whether he's going to take on the much harder tasks that would make a much bigger difference. I think I've been pretty clear here, not sure where the disconnect is coming from.

 
David Dodds said:
Implementing term limits is easy to get through.

- Everyone can have a max of 12 years in the House and another 12 years as a Senator

- Everyone's clock resets to 0 when the law is passed (so the guy who has been there for 40 years still gets his 12)

- Anyone voting no to this triggers an ethics inquiry into who is buying them off

passage rate of 90+%
Click to expand...
With threats like ethics inquiries you could pass a lot of things.  I'm not sure that is the right way to do things.

Not to mention House members have a 2 year term and Senate members have a 6 year term.  If enough people have a problem with term limits those people will vote them out.  I'm not sure why people want more laws to take more of the people's controls away.  I guess this is strange to me, because most of the people want term limits are against government taking away their freedom.  But here is a perfect situation where you want to take everyone's freedom away (not you specifically not sure if you like term limits or not.  The royal you if that is such a thing).

 
Jayrod said:
I have seen some attempts at this that don't have a lot of success.  The biggest drawbacks to disadvantaged communities is they don't have proper support structures in place to help them along.  People in these communities have difficulty dealing with simple things like being on time, showing up every day, being respectful and grinding it out when they don't feel like it.  Also the drama at home constantly spills over into the workplace and affects their performance.

Companies can't provide the assistance needed and remain profitable.  The only success in this area is really among the non-profit world.  The city I live in has a few truly successful outreaches.  However, there are still a high number of people that can't hold it together or simply don't want to.  The old horse to water analogy is spot on here and the only answer is true cultural change.
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But wait, I thpought these people were "lazy" and just wanted a "hand out".?

Aren't those conservative talking points?

 
Niles Standish said:
With threats like ethics inquiries you could pass a lot of things.  I'm not sure that is the right way to do things.

Not to mention House members have a 2 year term and Senate members have a 6 year term.  If enough people have a problem with term limits those people will vote them out.  I'm not sure why people want more laws to take more of the people's controls away.  I guess this is strange to me, because most of the people want term limits are against government taking away their freedom.  But here is a perfect situation where you want to take everyone's freedom away (not you specifically not sure if you like term limits or not.  The royal you if that is such a thing).
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Most people are voting by party affiliation so they'll keep their turd instead of putting the other party's turd in. Rotating the turds would hopefully lead to less turds and corruption. 

 
Niles Standish said:
With threats like ethics inquiries you could pass a lot of things.  I'm not sure that is the right way to do things.

Not to mention House members have a 2 year term and Senate members have a 6 year term.  If enough people have a problem with term limits those people will vote them out.  I'm not sure why people want more laws to take more of the people's controls away.  I guess this is strange to me, because most of the people want term limits are against government taking away their freedom.  But here is a perfect situation where you want to take everyone's freedom away (not you specifically not sure if you like term limits or not.  The royal you if that is such a thing).




 
Click to expand...
People want the bribing out of politics and it's easiest to do by having reasonable term-limits.  If someone is voting no internally to my proposal of 12 years, then you can bet there is a giant sum of illegal money coming to them.  Ask the people what they want.  Both sides of the aisle want this.  The only people not wanting this are the politicians and the lobbyists that are feeding them.

 
David Dodds said:
Implementing term limits is easy to get through.

- Everyone can have a max of 12 years in the House and another 12 years as a Senator

- Everyone's clock resets to 0 when the law is passed (so the guy who has been there for 40 years still gets his 12)

- Anyone voting no to this triggers an ethics inquiry into who is buying them off

passage rate of 90+%
Click to expand...
Not only is that an unconstitutional act, it's also repulsive.  There are very good reasons to object to a term limits law that have nothing to do with being paid off.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Most people are voting by party affiliation so they'll keep their turd instead of putting the other party's turd in. Rotating the turds would hopefully lead to less turds and corruption. 
Click to expand...
Couldn't you do that through primaries if you cared?  If the people voting wanted a guy out after 2 terms they would vote someone else in the primary.  They clearly don't.  And I'm not sure why we'd legislate to take away their choice.

 
Niles Standish said:
Couldn't you do that through primaries if you cared?  If the people voting wanted a guy out after 2 terms they would vote someone else in the primary.  They clearly don't.  And I'm not sure why we'd legislate to take away their choice.
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Primaries are never rigged, right? </Clinton>

 
David Dodds said:
Term limits is the one thing I am positive Trump can get done.  That's the best way to show he is draining the swamp.  
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If he doesn't follow through on this does that just mean he made himself king of the swamp?  Like that Ogre guy with the catchy theme song.

 
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Ramblin Wreck said:
Primaries are never rigged, right? </Clinton>
Click to expand...
So you don't trust the voting process therefore you want more laws and more legislation in the voter process?  I'm not sure more government is the way to fix your fear of government.

Face it you want term limits and most people don't or they'd vote people out in primaries.  And since your opinion isn't popular enough to win the day in the real world you're hoping the laws will be changed so your opinion is forced on everyone else.  That's fine and all and I'm a realist I know it happens a lot, but don't pretend you're trying to do something positive.  If enough people thought term-limits were important we wouldn't need them.

 
David Dodds said:
People want the bribing out of politics and it's easiest to do by having reasonable term-limits.  If someone is voting no internally to my proposal of 12 years, then you can bet there is a giant sum of illegal money coming to them.  Ask the people what they want.  Both sides of the aisle want this.  The only people not wanting this are the politicians and the lobbyists that are feeding them.
Click to expand...
I'm not a fan of term limits but we had them on the ballot this year for County Council and they passed by huge margins.  I'm in a Maryland suburb of D.C., very liberal.  I think Dodds is right that term limits are popular on both sides of the aisle.

 
David Dodds said:
Implementing term limits is easy to get through.

- Everyone can have a max of 12 years in the House and another 12 years as a Senator

- Everyone's clock resets to 0 when the law is passed (so the guy who has been there for 40 years still gets his 12)

- Anyone voting no to this triggers an ethics inquiry into who is buying them off

passage rate of 90+%
Click to expand...
But there won't be a vote.  Seems problematic.

 
David Dodds said:
People want the bribing out of politics and it's easiest to do by having reasonable term-limits.  If someone is voting no internally to my proposal of 12 years, then you can bet there is a giant sum of illegal money coming to them.  Ask the people what they want.  Both sides of the aisle want this.  The only people not wanting this are the politicians and the lobbyists that are feeding them.
Click to expand...
People want term limits because they don't want to have to think for themselves.

You know how many people have served in the United States House of Representatives since the ratification of the Constitution?  11,000.  The average length of service is 10 years roughly.  The average in the Senate?  About the same.   About 100 members of the House have served for over 30 years in its history.  Right around 1%.  The senate numbers are slightly higher but not much.

We already have what you are proposing.  There is no need for term limits.  We have them.  What term limit supporters really want is to not have to think for themselves, and a significant amount of more power over other people's representatives because they don't like those people.  It has nothing to do with corruption.  People think it does, and hate the boogey man named Special Interest.  Until it's their special interest - and then it's just doing what's right, and why can't people think like me?  Oh, they must be bigots.  I'll go with that.  That's the easiest thing to say because it requires no thought most of the time.

I don't want this.  I'm neither a lobbyist or a politician.  I'll think for myself thanks. 

 
David Dodds said:
Then the honest politicians voting that way won't be found in the pockets of lobbyists.  
Click to expand...
Not very high on the innocent until proven guilty thing are you?  It's ok.  I knew this was coming when I posted my diatribe about the Jacobin movement that was starting with Trump.  Everyone that doesn't think the right way is the enemy and worthy of investigation.  Sounds good.  Make sure the boots get fitted properly.  They can be really uncomfortable if they are too tight.  Bunions aren't fun.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
I'm not a fan of term limits but we had them on the ballot this year for County Council and they passed by huge margins.  I'm in a Maryland suburb of D.C., very liberal.  I think Dodds is right that term limits are popular on both sides of the aisle.
Click to expand...
They are.  Yelling "term limits!" to me is no different than saying, "Make America Great Again!"

 
David Dodds said:
Implementing term limits is easy to get through.

- Everyone can have a max of 12 years in the House and another 12 years as a Senator

- Everyone's clock resets to 0 when the law is passed (so the guy who has been there for 40 years still gets his 12)

- Anyone voting no to this triggers an ethics inquiry into who is buying them off

passage rate of 90+%
Click to expand...
This is disturbing and is the exact type of bullying that I don't want a leader to do. 

 
mr roboto said:
 I don't disagree with you regarding trumps checkered past on race relations but your post typifies the leftist fascination with rhetoric and language versus structural change. 

It's actually kind of interesting we don't see more pioneering start up companies intentionally locating in disadvantaged communities and hiring workers who are desperate for decent paying job that may put them on a career track.
Click to expand...
We see this every day.   It's called "China."

 
If Trump made all these inroads into non-white voters, why did Hillary win the popular vote? She must've made inroads too. 

 
A bigly reason that the exit polls didn't work IMO, is that people didn't want to admit they voted for Trump.  It's like your friend leaving you at the bar with a fat chick and you telling him the next day nothing happened.  And by "nothing" you ####ed her in a snowbank ten minutes after your friend left. 

 
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