Catholics - Why Pray to Mary/Saints Instead of God Directly? (1 Viewer)

[Jayrok]

Just an fyi. While everything in the bible is christian. everything that is Christian isn't in the bible.

I wouldn't say that everything in the bible is christian. Everything in the NT, yes.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The Ulster Prods knew how to deal with Papists! We need some good Orange drinking songs in this thread.

that's not funny.

Lighten up, Francis of Assisi.

Exchange "Ulster Prods" for Germans, and "Papists" for Jews, and "Orange" for Germans, would you find it as uproariously funny?

I didn't find it to be uproariously funny in the first place, just a little amusing. And your analogy sucks.

DiStef has a point, which is one reason why this thread is awful and even itself dangerous.

Chauvinism and falsehoods abound here.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Would it make a difference if the pagan practices included events such as the eucharist, baptism, resurrection of the dead, people ascending to heaven, and virgin births? Or are those only unique to Christianity?

We are talking about two separate things. Your personal beliefs that the events in the bible were not true, and were ripped from the pagan playbook is not what we are discussing. The discussion was regarding events that arose after the bible was written, and in time periods in which the Roman Church was trying to make their religion more appealing to the pagan nations, and thus was specifically melding Christian teachings with pagan celebrations and traditions.

Oh. It reminded me of early Christian apologists, such as Justin Martyr, who appealed to the emporer to ease up on persecution by comparing Jesus and things that he did with various pagan gods who did essentially the same thing. That is, he wrote that some of the things Jesus did were no different than the things Greek gods did, as well as other people in antiquity. His purpose was to appeal to the emperor that no one was persecuting the Greeks for worshipping their gods, so why should it be legal to persecute Christians for worshipping Jesus. His discourse could also serve as to be more appealing to pagan nations.

By the way, I do not believe the events in the Bible were ripped from some pagan playbook. I believe the majority of the events in the NT are clearly taken from the Hebrew OT, through the use of midrash. Events and practices are different things in this context. But some practices, such as the eucharist, were borrowed from previous pagan rituals. Evidence of this comes from writings in the second century.

So much for the monastery

I guess this thread is kind of up your alley?

 

[timschochet]

All right. My apologies to anyone who took offense to my comments about Ulster and Papists. I was simply trying to be amusing and I guess nobody was amused. Sorry about that.

 

[Jayrok]

There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Would it make a difference if the pagan practices included events such as the eucharist, baptism, resurrection of the dead, people ascending to heaven, and virgin births? Or are those only unique to Christianity?

We are talking about two separate things. Your personal beliefs that the events in the bible were not true, and were ripped from the pagan playbook is not what we are discussing. The discussion was regarding events that arose after the bible was written, and in time periods in which the Roman Church was trying to make their religion more appealing to the pagan nations, and thus was specifically melding Christian teachings with pagan celebrations and traditions.

Oh. It reminded me of early Christian apologists, such as Justin Martyr, who appealed to the emporer to ease up on persecution by comparing Jesus and things that he did with various pagan gods who did essentially the same thing. That is, he wrote that some of the things Jesus did were no different than the things Greek gods did, as well as other people in antiquity. His purpose was to appeal to the emperor that no one was persecuting the Greeks for worshipping their gods, so why should it be legal to persecute Christians for worshipping Jesus. His discourse could also serve as to be more appealing to pagan nations.

By the way, I do not believe the events in the Bible were ripped from some pagan playbook. I believe the majority of the events in the NT are clearly taken from the Hebrew OT, through the use of midrash. Events and practices are different things in this context. But some practices, such as the eucharist, were borrowed from previous pagan rituals. Evidence of this comes from writings in the second century.

So much for the monastery

I guess this thread is kind of up your alley?

I just liked the quote from Stripes.

 

[DiStefano]

All right. My apologies to anyone who took offense to my comments about Ulster and Papists. I was simply trying to be amusing and I guess nobody was amused. Sorry about that.

Fair enough. I appreciate your saying that.

If you are at all familiar with the troubles in Northern Ireland, those emotions are still very close to the surface.

 

[Psychopav]

There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Would it make a difference if the pagan practices included events such as the eucharist, baptism, resurrection of the dead, people ascending to heaven, and virgin births? Or are those only unique to Christianity?

Those are things I'm talking about.Again, most of it is probably harmless in God's eyes. However, praying to anything other than God is pretty risky in my opinion. I don't see the need to engage in such a risk.

This is exactly what religious Jews say about Jesus.

If I were Jewish, I wouldn't pray to Christ either.Makes me wonder why Catholics aren't called Maryians or Saintians. You are what you are praying to.

Because they believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ?

Being of a divine nature, doesn't mean you deserve to be prayed to. Angels are of a divine nature. A Christian doesn't pray TO Jesus, he prays to God, in Jesus name.

THIS IS DANGEROUSLY INCORRECT.

At least Jesus agrees with me. I'll settle for that over Catholic tradition.

Substitute "Father" for "God" and I don't have a problem with your post. Distinguish Jesus from God and I have a huge problem with it. And so would all adherents of mainstream Christian sects - Catholic, Orthodox, and protestant.

 

[fatness]

The God of the bible knew there were no other Gods, and knew they were false, and led to degraded practices.

Degraded Practices would be a great band name.

 

[shader]

There are books written on the subject of how many, many, MANY practices Roman Catholics engage in mirror what pagans were doing before Christianity.

Would it make a difference if the pagan practices included events such as the eucharist, baptism, resurrection of the dead, people ascending to heaven, and virgin births? Or are those only unique to Christianity?

Those are things I'm talking about.Again, most of it is probably harmless in God's eyes. However, praying to anything other than God is pretty risky in my opinion. I don't see the need to engage in such a risk.

This is exactly what religious Jews say about Jesus.

If I were Jewish, I wouldn't pray to Christ either.Makes me wonder why Catholics aren't called Maryians or Saintians. You are what you are praying to.

Because they believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ?

Being of a divine nature, doesn't mean you deserve to be prayed to. Angels are of a divine nature. A Christian doesn't pray TO Jesus, he prays to God, in Jesus name.

THIS IS DANGEROUSLY INCORRECT.

At least Jesus agrees with me. I'll settle for that over Catholic tradition.

Substitute "Father" for "God" and I don't have a problem with your post. Distinguish Jesus from God and I have a huge problem with it. And so would all adherents of mainstream Christian sects - Catholic, Orthodox, and protestant.

I'm well aware that the majority of Christians believe in the trinity. As I said, I'll go with the bible, and Jesus, rather than church tradition, or appealing to what the majority believe.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

All right. My apologies to anyone who took offense to my comments about Ulster and Papists. I was simply trying to be amusing and I guess nobody was amused. Sorry about that.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Seems a convoluted way to get a message to God.

"Hey Mary, pass this on to Jesus, will ya?"

Sometimes what I did is just too awful to tell my father so I tell mom instead and she makes me pasta n sauce so things are better.

 

[Psychopav]

I'm well aware that the majority of Christians believe in the trinity. As I said, I'll go with the bible, and Jesus, rather than church tradition, or appealing to what the majority believe.

Except when it comes to the bible. Then you'll go with tradition and the majority, it seems.

 

[shader]

I'm well aware that the majority of Christians believe in the trinity. As I said, I'll go with the bible, and Jesus, rather than church tradition, or appealing to what the majority believe.

Except when it comes to the bible. Then you'll go with tradition and the majority, it seems.

You've gone over my head here, I freely admit. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

 

[CBusAlex]

comments about Ulster and Papists

trying to be amusing

First time in history these two phrases have been uttered in conjunction?

 

[Psychopav]

I'm well aware that the majority of Christians believe in the trinity. As I said, I'll go with the bible, and Jesus, rather than church tradition, or appealing to what the majority believe.

Except when it comes to the bible. Then you'll go with tradition and the majority, it seems.

You've gone over my head here, I freely admit. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

The bible itself is a compilation of documents picked out from among many manuscripts written at the time. It has been deemed by men to be and inerrant and authoritative compendium, including the books that it contains and excluding those that it does not. This is a tradition which has been kept by Christians down through the ages, but it's a church tradition and what the majority believes.

 

[Psychopav]

I'm well aware that the majority of Christians believe in the trinity. As I said, I'll go with the bible, and Jesus, rather than church tradition, or appealing to what the majority believe.

Except when it comes to the bible. Then you'll go with tradition and the majority, it seems.

You've gone over my head here, I freely admit. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

The bible itself is a compilation of documents picked out from among many manuscripts written at the time. It has been deemed by men to be and inerrant and authoritative compendium, including the books that it contains and excluding those that it does not. This is a tradition which has been kept by Christians down through the ages, but it's a church tradition and what the majority believes.

Others can, I'm sure, explain this a lot better than I can.

 

[Politician Spock]

I'm well aware that the majority of Christians believe in the trinity. As I said, I'll go with the bible, and Jesus, rather than church tradition, or appealing to what the majority believe.

Except when it comes to the bible. Then you'll go with tradition and the majority, it seems.

You've gone over my head here, I freely admit. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

The bible itself is a compilation of documents picked out from among many manuscripts written at the time. It has been deemed by men to be and inerrant and authoritative compendium, including the books that it contains and excluding those that it does not. This is a tradition which has been kept by Christians down through the ages, but it's a church tradition and what the majority believes.

Others can, I'm sure, explain this a lot better than I can.

The debate as to why many, many books were excluded, and even why some controversial ones were included, could create a 100 page thread. 2 Peter and Jude almost didn't make it in because they discuss angels that are locked in chains because they sinned.

There are some who say that if every NT book written by Paul was not part of the Bible, a person reading the Bible for the first time would have a completely different view of what Christianity is.

I'm not saying Paul's books should not be in the Bible, but the aspect of reading the Bible without Paul's books is fascinating. His writtings perhaps define Christianity more than the Gospels do.

 

[shader]

I'm well aware that the majority of Christians believe in the trinity. As I said, I'll go with the bible, and Jesus, rather than church tradition, or appealing to what the majority believe.

Except when it comes to the bible. Then you'll go with tradition and the majority, it seems.

You've gone over my head here, I freely admit. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

The bible itself is a compilation of documents picked out from among many manuscripts written at the time. It has been deemed by men to be and inerrant and authoritative compendium, including the books that it contains and excluding those that it does not. This is a tradition which has been kept by Christians down through the ages, but it's a church tradition and what the majority believes.

Completely different. You are talking about the backbone of Christianity, God's Word. Me "going with the majority" on that one has nothing to do with what we were discussing before, which was a specific teaching. Also, I never said there was anything wrong with being in the majority in a specific matter. I'm completely fine with that. Just not when it comes to things that I feel are glaringly false, such as the trinity (which btw isn't found in the bible but was a term and a teaching created by the church).

 

[Jayrok]

There are some who say that if every NT book written by Paul was not part of the Bible, a person reading the Bible for the first time would have a completely different view of what Christianity is.

I agree with this. Writings attributed to Paul were paramount in the shaping of Christian beliefs, one of the most notable being salvation solely by grace.

 

[DiStefano]

If you take out the books ascribed to Moses in the Old Testament, Judaism might look a lot different.

 

[Zow]

I'm well aware that the majority of Christians believe in the trinity. As I said, I'll go with the bible, and Jesus, rather than church tradition, or appealing to what the majority believe.

Except when it comes to the bible. Then you'll go with tradition and the majority, it seems.

You've gone over my head here, I freely admit. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

The bible itself is a compilation of documents picked out from among many manuscripts written at the time. It has been deemed by men to be and inerrant and authoritative compendium, including the books that it contains and excluding those that it does not. This is a tradition which has been kept by Christians down through the ages, but it's a church tradition and what the majority believes.

Others can, I'm sure, explain this a lot better than I can.

Frankly, while I think you are both blinded and misguided by faith, your explanation was pretty darn good. Especially in the context of the two of you arguing whose subjective interpretation is better.

 

[Politician Spock]

If you take out the books ascribed to Moses in the Old Testament, Judaism might look a lot different.

Yeah. But the early Christians in Rome adored Paul. They thought he was a righteous dude.

To them, Moses was some dead guy who wrote laws they didn't like.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

If God exists, why would He care about how He is worshipped? I mean, you're talking about a guy capable of creating an entire universe and everything in it. Wouldn't this issue be a little petty for Him to be concerned about?

Why do you care if your kids listen to you and turn out well? Why does a Corporation have rules? Why do people show respect for the president? Why does the president wish that the majority of the citizens in his country obey the rules? Why does my employer make me wear ties? Why do the police care if I speed? Why do teachers want the kids in their class to listen and learn?

Dragging God down to our level?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

What if you were the only one? The God of the bible knew there were no other Gods, and knew they were false, and led to degraded practices.

Of course there is only one God (just like many of these passages say), but what about other gods?

 

[matuski]

If God exists, why would He care about how He is worshipped? I mean, you're talking about a guy capable of creating an entire universe and everything in it. Wouldn't this issue be a little petty for Him to be concerned about?

Why do you care if your kids listen to you and turn out well? Why does a Corporation have rules? Why do people show respect for the president? Why does the president wish that the majority of the citizens in his country obey the rules? Why does my employer make me wear ties? Why do the police care if I speed? Why do teachers want the kids in their class to listen and learn?

Relating to a god on human terms. I think you are onto something here...

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I cannot believe the chauvinism here. Hey Muhammed was a businessman and tribal leader who invented sht up to take in dollars and kill rivals. Every Protestant sect has some king or prince in history behind it that came up with theological excuses to justify massive land grabs & ad hoc property confiscation not to mention territorial expansion. People really want to go there? Be excellent to one another instead.

Really? Seems to me that the Protestants being shut out and even persecuted by government leads to the modern rediscovery of "separation of church and state". Granted some that argued against sullying the church with the filth of politics changed their tunes when they gained control of government, but I think overall your history is distorted. Who were the kings and princes for the protestants that fled to the New World?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

If God exists, why would He care about how He is worshipped? I mean, you're talking about a guy capable of creating an entire universe and everything in it. Wouldn't this issue be a little petty for Him to be concerned about?

Why do you care if your kids listen to you and turn out well? Why does a Corporation have rules? Why do people show respect for the president? Why does the president wish that the majority of the citizens in his country obey the rules? Why does my employer make me wear ties? Why do the police care if I speed? Why do teachers want the kids in their class to listen and learn?

I do care that my kids listen to me. But I don't want them to worship me, especially to the exclusion of all others. I'm often most proud of them when they challenge me.

What if you were the only one? The God of the bible knew there were no other Gods, and knew they were false, and led to degraded practices.

If I was the only one, I wouldn't care what my kids thought about it. Just as now, my priority would be that they were healthy, good natured, happy, thinking individuals who tried to live productive lives and do the right thing. Compared to all that, what my kids thought about my own divinity would be pretty low on the list. For it to be first on the list strikes me personally as nonsensical.

Well Tim, a discussion on what you would do if you were the creator of the universe is only productive for a short time. There are many of us who do worship God, and we are incredibly appreciative of all that has been provided for us. But, when you look at the strange way that MOST of humanity has worshipped their deities and the warfare and bloodshed that has resulted, I can see some of the reasons that many don't like the idea of worship.

You are the one assigning flawed human wants and needs on God, not Tim.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I cannot believe the chauvinism here. Hey Muhammed was a businessman and tribal leader who invented sht up to take in dollars and kill rivals. Every Protestant sect has some king or prince in history behind it that came up with theological excuses to justify massive land grabs & ad hoc property confiscation not to mention territorial expansion. People really want to go there? Be excellent to one another instead.

Really? Seems to me that the Protestants being shut out and even persecuted by government leads to the modern rediscovery of "separation of church and state". Granted some that argued against sullying the church with the filth of politics changed their tunes when they gained control of government, but I think overall your history is distorted. Who were the kings and princes for the protestants that fled to the New World?

The distortion was kind of my point.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I cannot believe the chauvinism here. Hey Muhammed was a businessman and tribal leader who invented sht up to take in dollars and kill rivals. Every Protestant sect has some king or prince in history behind it that came up with theological excuses to justify massive land grabs & ad hoc property confiscation not to mention territorial expansion. People really want to go there? Be excellent to one another instead.

Really? Seems to me that the Protestants being shut out and even persecuted by government leads to the modern rediscovery of "separation of church and state". Granted some that argued against sullying the church with the filth of politics changed their tunes when they gained control of government, but I think overall your history is distorted. Who were the kings and princes for the protestants that fled to the New World?

The distortion was kind of my point.

I don't get it then. Sorry!