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What are your expectations for rookie defensive tackles in general?
And also rookie defensive tackles playing outside of their natural position.massraider said:
My expectations on any #5 overall pick (other than a QB) is to be on the field making an impact, or at least be a consistent comtributor. You aren't seriouly saying that Dorsey wasn't a disapointment are you? If Jenkins or Stroud weren't worth a #1 I can't see how Dorsey would even be close.massraider said:
He didnt even line up in his natural position...how much impact is a square peg in a round hole going to make? Thats on the coaches not him if they didnt put him in a position to make plays.
What are you saying his natural position is? Its not End.
Jenkins was about 50 pounds overweight with serious injury questions.If you have the same expectations for all top 5 picks, regardless of position, then I would say your expectations are unreasonable. Defensive tackles, even great ones, rarely impact as rookies. Yeah, I would say he was probably a disappointment. I would also say most of the people that say that didn't pay much attention to the interior of the Chiefs line. I am including myself in that group. But I think a 1st ronder is about what I would expect for a guy that was ranked the top prospect in last years draftn by a lot of people, and plays a position that about 20 teams could use.Haynesworth looked awful his rookie year. You might try a bit of patience
Dorsey is a 3 technique DT meaning he is a pass rusher. KC had him lined up in a read and react straight up against a guard. His skills are meant to be used as a penatrator not just eating up space. KC never did anything to take advantage of his skills.He is a three technique player who was not used as one.
I don't need patience. I'm not the one looking to trade Dorsey, that would be the Chiefs. My point was his contract combined with a less than steller rookie season doesn't warrent a first round pick.
Since the Chiefs picked up the tab on first round pick signing bonus he's basically a first round talent who doesn't cost another team any guaranteed money. What about his contract is a detriment?
I don't think that's right. Dorsey's contract included over 22 million in guaranteed NOT signing bonuus, without knowing full contract details I'd guess he is still due 14+ Million in guaranteed money.
I assume that was Dorsey's grade prior to the draft.
I would say that is a low estimate. So that means he only got a signing bonus of 8 mill? And he probably got a roster bonus guaranteed in 2008. I would be very, very surprised if he had 14 mill in guaranteed bonuses left on this deal.Dorsey's base salaries:2009: $385,000, 2010: $983,500, 2011: $1,582,250, 2012: $2.181 million, 2013: $2.75 millionThe Chiefs would take a hit on the accelerated portion of his signing bonus, but they can easily absorb it, no matter what it is.
No kidding. Dorsey is still going to be a good player if/when he gets in a scheme that actually uses his talent.
I'll back you up on that, and Kirwan knows his stuff. They were talking about the possibility of the Falcons working a trade for him.
Every 4-3 team in the league should be looking to get in on that action.
EXACTLY! His lack of production is a knock on Herman Edwards and Gunther Cunningham's lack of knowledge in how to draft players that fit your scheme. I kinda feel bad for Dorsey because he was brought to KC...a team that desperately needed some pass rush, and they ask the guy to eat up blocks...READ AND REACT?!?! The guy has never mouthed off about how he wasn't being used to the best of his abilities. I hope he does get traded into a defense that will allow him to attack. I bet he'd be a beast! However, I wouldn't give up a 1st rounder since the Chiefs will probably cut him eventually.
I do think now is the time to trade him. if he gets beat on for a year in the 3-4 (And I read that the Chiefs were starting him out at NT), his value goes down.
Hard to compare. Dorsey is a single gapper and Raji a two gapping nose. Some of the grades Dorsey had coming out of college had him at perrenial Pro Bowl, possible HOF Level. He graded out MUCH higher than what Raji has. Many people don't even have Raji as the best tackle in this class. Dorsey struggled with injuries last year. Still a lot to like potential wise.
The contract would be the only thing keeping me from coughing up a first rounder for Dorsey. We're talking outside of the Top 10 at least.
As a fantasy owner who owns Michael Turner, Roddy White, and TOny Gonzalez I'd love to see the Falcons trade for Dorsey and Gonzo. That would be a lot of talent on the roster, especially if Dorsey pans out. 1 and a 2 or a 1 and 3 for Dorsey and Gonzo?
No doubt.
I agree completely. With part of his contract taken care of, and with one year under his belt, he is worth taking a shot at for the 1.20. What may be the stickler is if KC would be asking for like a 1st and 4th or something. If that's the case, Detroit should hold off. But other teams, with a late 1st, might be willing to look at take the risk...
I was coming to post this very thing. They got into a great conversation/negotiation where Tucker was Atlanta and PK was KC. In the end they were pretty close on Atlanta's 1.24 and Jamaal Anderson for Dorsey. PK did indeed say that Dorsey was a better 3 technique than anyone else in the draft. Tucker thought that was too high, I don't know, I don't claim to be an expert but I can definitely see this or something like it as a possibility. I think Dorsey was clearly their second choice behind Ryan and would be ideal for their scheme.
I heard it too and I wonder if that exercise is what precipitated the rumor of KC wanting to trade Dorsey
Could be, I wish I could remember how they got on that topic. They have been just speculating that Dorsey didn't have a role in the new 3-4, but I don't remember them saying he was officially "on the market", FWIW.I heard it too and I wonder if that exercise is what precipitated the rumor of KC wanting to trade Dorsey
If I were looking at why he struggled as a rookie making game-changing plays, I would put about 80% on the coaching staff and 20% on Dorsey. Jason Whitlock had one of his best columns right at the end of the season, when he pointed out that Dorsey had been used wrong all year by an inept coaching staff. I cannot underscore that enough -- Edwards, Cunningham, etc were horrible.I would hate to have a wasted pick like that.And FWIW, Pendergast has said they may use a mixture of 4-3 and 3-4, but that still limits a kid like Dorsey. And having seen Dorsey and heard about his off-field fun times in the nightlife, I would think a regime like Pioli-Haley may not want guys like that around.
I don't know man, I look at it like the Lions drafting Stafford and having him play TE his rookie year. He'd be playing out of his position of strength just the same.
Wait... Peppers wants to play in a 3-4 right?
If Peppers is never under any circumstances going to play for the Panthers again I'd love to get a guy like Dorsey. And, DT is a definite need for us. Hey, you might be on to something. I'll take Dorsey and a pick for Peppers.
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