Chuck Woodson voted AP's top defensive player (1 Viewer)

[trader jake]

This thread isn't official until Chase comes in with some lies, damn lies, and statistics.

 

[Sabertooth]

But watching the games and watching a guy like Revis virtually eliminate the best WR all by himself is incredible. It's almost like playing with 12 guys when you can put your CB on the teams best WR and take him out of the game.

Sorry Joe, but this fiction has been debunked repeatedly. Revis is a GREAT defensive back, but the myth that he can shut down half the field alone is just plain wrong. I'm too lazy to dig up a link, but Belicheat was quite vocal that Revis got help underneath and over the top against Moss and the Pats. He gets help every game (no crime in that BTW - every DB gets help in some schemes/situations). So please, let's stop making stuff up to support Revis. He doesn't need falsehoods to justify his success - the guy is the best cover CB in the league. But he DOES get help.

Sorry - not "making stuff up". I only wrote what I did after watching games. Of course there are time when other players get in the mix. But by and large, he does by himself what lots of teams take 2 guys to do. J

The award isn't better cover-corner in the league. It is defensive player of the year. The Packers showed against the Cardinals what happens on D when Woodson gets knocked to the turf. Also of note when comparing apples to oranges is the the Packers offense is far superior to the Jets offense. So teams are playing from behind more as a result. This results in more passing attempts against them. The Packers had about 8% more passes thrown on them this season. Not to mention they sacked the QB more which could have been because of the coverage. So the Packers had at least 44 more drop backs to face on defense than the Jets did. Woodson clearly deserved it as the best all around defensive player. Revis had a great year as well and may have won it if not for Chuck's superior season.

 

[Case Ace]

1 and 1A, but I'd have made Revis the #1. The list of WRs who got lost on Revis Island is unreal. Not to mention 85, Moss, and Owens were locked down twice. Next year I'm going to make sure I know which of the WR1's play the Jets.

 

[Jeremy]

But watching the games and watching a guy like Revis virtually eliminate the best WR all by himself is incredible. It's almost like playing with 12 guys when you can put your CB on the teams best WR and take him out of the game.

Sorry Joe, but this fiction has been debunked repeatedly. Revis is a GREAT defensive back, but the myth that he can shut down half the field alone is just plain wrong. I'm too lazy to dig up a link, but Belicheat was quite vocal that Revis got help underneath and over the top against Moss and the Pats. He gets help every game (no crime in that BTW - every DB gets help in some schemes/situations). So please, let's stop making stuff up to support Revis. He doesn't need falsehoods to justify his success - the guy is the best cover CB in the league. But he DOES get help.

Sorry - not "making stuff up". I only wrote what I did after watching games. Of course there are time when other players get in the mix. But by and large, he does by himself what lots of teams take 2 guys to do. J

You didn't come out equally impressed with what Woodson has been able to do? I don't know if you give equal time to both teams, but Woodson made a game changing play in nearly every game and it wasn't all in coverage. Admittedly I've watched nearly every minute of the Packers season and only a few games of the Jets, so I'm not getting the full appreciation of Revis from my end. But he had to have damn near walked on water if he impressed you that much more than Woodson. Woodson was AMAZING this year.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Woodson's tackle numbers express the fact that the Packers would play him at Safety some, and also that he was extraordinarily good at playing the run and at coming up and cutting down backs swinging out of the backfield.

Woodson was tasked with the other offenses #1 threat, not just their #1 W.R. He had to match up against T.E.'s if that was called for.

Once Harris went down he was pulled back to being primarily matched against the other teams best deep threat with very intermittent help over the top. He was truely on an island.

He did this while battling through injury which is something the veteran players especially appreciate.

His numbers speak for themselves, and those suggesting that players would automatically vote for Revis may not understand the respect T.E.'s and backs have for Woodson. True, W.R.'s may be more frightened of working against Revis, I know I would be, but W.R.'s are not the entirety of his peers.

No, Woodson is deserving.

Of course I think Revis would be deserving if he got it, as would maybe Ware, Dummerville, or maybe even Cushing who had an outstanding year while playing through injury because he wanted to be out there for his team. Had jared Allen maintained his numbers pace he would have had a claim this year. Regardless of his final numbers Viking fans know ho disruptive he was.

 

[PizzaDeliveryGuy]

They would have got it right either way. Congrats to Woodson.

 

[Joe Bryant]

But watching the games and watching a guy like Revis virtually eliminate the best WR all by himself is incredible. It's almost like playing with 12 guys when you can put your CB on the teams best WR and take him out of the game.

Sorry Joe, but this fiction has been debunked repeatedly. Revis is a GREAT defensive back, but the myth that he can shut down half the field alone is just plain wrong. I'm too lazy to dig up a link, but Belicheat was quite vocal that Revis got help underneath and over the top against Moss and the Pats. He gets help every game (no crime in that BTW - every DB gets help in some schemes/situations). So please, let's stop making stuff up to support Revis. He doesn't need falsehoods to justify his success - the guy is the best cover CB in the league. But he DOES get help.

Sorry - not "making stuff up". I only wrote what I did after watching games. Of course there are time when other players get in the mix. But by and large, he does by himself what lots of teams take 2 guys to do. J

Dude - c'mon. "Virtually eliminate the best WR all by himself?" He's the best cover CB in the league. And he gets help. It's ok to admit it.I'm with trader jake. Revis can have the award, if Woodson can keep playing in the postseason.

Of course he has teammates to help. Maybe it'll be easier this way: With Revis, the Jets can put him in single coverage on the best WR and virtually eliminate the WR. That's a huge advantage for the Jets. And one I don't believe the other 31 teams can say they have.J

 

[Joe Bryant]

But watching the games and watching a guy like Revis virtually eliminate the best WR all by himself is incredible. It's almost like playing with 12 guys when you can put your CB on the teams best WR and take him out of the game.

Sorry Joe, but this fiction has been debunked repeatedly. Revis is a GREAT defensive back, but the myth that he can shut down half the field alone is just plain wrong. I'm too lazy to dig up a link, but Belicheat was quite vocal that Revis got help underneath and over the top against Moss and the Pats. He gets help every game (no crime in that BTW - every DB gets help in some schemes/situations). So please, let's stop making stuff up to support Revis. He doesn't need falsehoods to justify his success - the guy is the best cover CB in the league. But he DOES get help.

Sorry - not "making stuff up". I only wrote what I did after watching games. Of course there are time when other players get in the mix. But by and large, he does by himself what lots of teams take 2 guys to do. J

You didn't come out equally impressed with what Woodson has been able to do? I don't know if you give equal time to both teams, but Woodson made a game changing play in nearly every game and it wasn't all in coverage. Admittedly I've watched nearly every minute of the Packers season and only a few games of the Jets, so I'm not getting the full appreciation of Revis from my end. But he had to have damn near walked on water if he impressed you that much more than Woodson. Woodson was AMAZING this year.

You have to be impressed with Woodson. No doubt. And I like the guy a lot. Even pimped him in the Random Shots. But I was more impressed with Revis. In a league that is becoming more passing focused every year, the ability for a team to take away a teams #1 WR without sacrificing another player with double coverage is a huge advantage.Impressed with Woodson? Absolutely. No way you couldn't be. Equally impressed as I was with Revis? No. J

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

Love someone calling the voters ignorant for voting for a guy who had the year that Woodson had.

Agreed. "Ignorant" is rarely if ever helpful when used in a discussion like this. Discuss the opinion that is different and explain why you think it's different is a much better path.J

Ignorant relative to the players who I believe would have voted to a different end. Maybe neither win the award if the players vote. In my opinion, while Woodson had a great year, Revis had the superior, more dominant year. There are lists of all the top-tier WRs that Revis shut down all over this site. I've yet to see one of those for Woodson. At the heart of my defense for Revis, however, is actually offense. By that I mean I believe the Jets relied more heavily on their defense to win games than the Packers did. If Revis doesn't provide his superior coverage, the Jets probably aren't able to apply as near as much pressure with their front seven. Simply put, the Jets have one of, if not the most dominant defenses this year. Revis is a huge part of that - possibly the most important part. To me he deserved the award. Not a fan of either team, by the way, so I don't feel my judgment is as clouded as some of the people posting in this thread.

 

[JJP]

A lot of ignorant sports writers voted for this award, in my opinion. Woodson had a great season to be sure, but no way he had a better year than Revis. I agree with the sentiment that if the players had voted the results would have been different.

Revis was a fantastic cover corner, but look at how many different things Woodson did for his team.Woodson - 74 tackles, 2 sacks, 4 forced fumbles, 9 interceptions, 3 touchdowns, 18 passes defensedRevis - 54 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles, 6 interceptions, 1 touchdown, 31 passes defensed

Question - How accurately do folks think these stats reflect the value of a shutdown type corner?J

They show a more all-around CB than a shutdown CB.Here's a few few more stats. Passing against each CB:Woodson - 39-76-448-5-9; 51.8 rating Revis - 41-111-425-2-6; 32.3 ratingI think that gets more to the "shutdown" label. But, why did Revis face 35 more attempts than Woodson? He played 24 more snaps than Woodson, but faced 35 more attempts.

I think I know the answer to that last question. When Al Harris got hurt, the guy that replaced him could not cover. He was guilty of several PI penalties in the game against Baltimore and probably got away with a few PIs that weren't called. QBs clearly wanted to look toward his side and not Woodson's.The entire Jets pass D was tremendous. 51.7% completion percentage, 5.4 ypa, opponent QB rating of 58.8 and TD/INT ratio of 8-17. To give you some idea of how bad a QB rating of 58.8 is, JarMarcus Russell's lifetime # is 65, Leinart a 71, Rex Grossman a 69.5 and Derek Anderson a 69.7.

 

[boubucarow]

A lot of ignorant sports writers voted for this award, in my opinion. Woodson had a great season to be sure, but no way he had a better year than Revis. I agree with the sentiment that if the players had voted the results would have been different.

Revis was a fantastic cover corner, but look at how many different things Woodson did for his team.Woodson - 74 tackles, 2 sacks, 4 forced fumbles, 9 interceptions, 3 touchdowns, 18 passes defensedRevis - 54 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles, 6 interceptions, 1 touchdown, 31 passes defensed

Question - How accurately do folks think these stats reflect the value of a shutdown type corner?J

They show a more all-around CB than a shutdown CB.Here's a few few more stats. Passing against each CB:Woodson - 39-76-448-5-9; 51.8 rating Revis - 41-111-425-2-6; 32.3 ratingI think that gets more to the "shutdown" label. But, why did Revis face 35 more attempts than Woodson? He played 24 more snaps than Woodson, but faced 35 more attempts.

That is pretty understandable actually. Revis stayed at CB all year while Woodson would often not be guarding a receiver one on one while he blitzed or played a safety style position. The Packers didn't play a lot of teams that had a strong #1 WR this year so the use of Woodson made great sense since keeping him on a poor #1 WR would waste his talents. Revis was almost always guarding the opposing teams top passing option including Moss twice, Owens twice, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, and Roddy White. Teams are going to throw the ball his way when he is guarding such players. I think about 2 attempts a game make sense then.Woodson deserved this award but Revis surely deserved it as well. It just isn't as obvious since he is unable to accumulate stats due to his usage but it doesn't make his impact any less then Woodson's. If you account for the caliber of WR he often was facing, the passes on Revis stats are unreal while Woodson was often guarding a lesser player. They both had unbelievable seasons and I can see how Woodson has been rewarded.

 

[TLEF316]

If Revis doesn't provide his superior coverage, the Jets probably aren't able to apply as near as much pressure with their front seven.

as i mentioned before, its important to note that A LOT of the NYJ pressure came from secondary blitzes rather than push from the front 7. Once Jenkins went down, the Jets relied on mostly overload blitzes to get pressure. The ILB cross blitzes they utilized early didn't work as well without a NT demanding the double team. Scott (and to a lesser extent Harris) still got theirs and Pace and Thomas had their moments. But this wasn't a traditional blitzing defense. The Jets really need a healthy Jenkins back and a stud 3-4 DE to really become a traditional lock down 3-4 pressure D. (which is why i'm sure glad that they arent playing Indy this week. Peyton's an expert at sniffing these types of plays out and shifting blocking assignments to stop them)

 

[golfguy]

i am a little surprised that woodson still got this award, after being torched by the steelers a few weeks back and the playoff game the other day. thought revis deserved it more.

 

[scrumptrulescent]

the guy that replaced him could not cover. He was guilty of several PI penalties in the game against Baltimore and probably got away with a few PIs that weren't called. QBs clearly wanted to look toward his side and not Woodson's.

Tramon Williams is a solid young CB. Judging him (and anyone else for that matter) on that 3 ring circus that went on in that Monday Night game would be selling him short.

 

[scrumptrulescent]

i am a little surprised that woodson still got this award, after being torched by the steelers a few weeks back and the playoff game the other day. thought revis deserved it more.

So if Vincent Jackson gets physical with Revis, pushes off, and has a big day with over 100 yards and a td or 2 in this weekend's playoff game, will Revis deserve it less then?

 

[boubucarow]

i am a little surprised that woodson still got this award, after being torched by the steelers a few weeks back and the playoff game the other day. thought revis deserved it more.

So if Vincent Jackson gets physical with Revis, pushes off, and has a big day with over 100 yards and a td or 2 in this weekend's playoff game, will Revis deserve it less then?

I will first say the Woodson was an all-pro defender this year so in no way is this hating. The first td was clearly incidental contact. On the second td, I didn't see see Fitz extend his arms. My reaction was the Woodson tried to cut off Fitz's route with his body, they bumped, and Fitz kept his footing. Honestly, on both plays I feel that Woodson was flatfooted and in a bad position to properly cover Fitz.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Reevis faced some great W.R.'s, no question. Whether they are past their prime and had decent or healthy Q.B.'s is another question.

I will say this. As a Packer fan I would trade a healthy Kampman, Harris, and their #1 and #4 draft choices for Revis. I would trade Woodson and Kampman and a high draft choice for Reevis. Reevis is a transcendent talent, who, if he remains healthy, will write his legacy across this league for a decade or more. Revis is the future, Woodson, the past, though he still has some tread left on those tires.

 

[Joe Bryant]

i am a little surprised that woodson still got this award, after being torched by the steelers a few weeks back and the playoff game the other day. thought revis deserved it more.

So if Vincent Jackson gets physical with Revis, pushes off, and has a big day with over 100 yards and a td or 2 in this weekend's playoff game, will Revis deserve it less then?

Absolutely. Most all the hype over Revis has been the ability for him to shut down the teams #1 WR. If Jackson goes off, that would go against all the props we've been giving Revis. Doesn't mean he's no good. But definitely would weaken the argument.J

 

[Kirby]

Go Blue

 

[scrumptrulescent]

i am a little surprised that woodson still got this award, after being torched by the steelers a few weeks back and the playoff game the other day. thought revis deserved it more.

So if Vincent Jackson gets physical with Revis, pushes off, and has a big day with over 100 yards and a td or 2 in this weekend's playoff game, will Revis deserve it less then?

Absolutely. Most all the hype over Revis has been the ability for him to shut down the teams #1 WR. If Jackson goes off, that would go against all the props we've been giving Revis. Doesn't mean he's no good. But definitely would weaken the argument.J

I believe it's an honor given out based on regular season play, is it not?

 

[trader jake]

Of course he has teammates to help. Maybe it'll be easier this way: With Revis, the Jets can put him in single coverage on the best WR and virtually eliminate the WR.

Of course there are time when other players get in the mix. But by and large, he does by himself what lots of teams take 2 guys to do.

the ability for a team to take away a teams #1 WR without sacrificing another player with double coverage is a huge advantage.

The people that think this is factually correct are mistaken. Somebody get on the horn with one of the talking heads that breaks down film. This "Revis Island" thing has taken on a life of it's own.

 

[Mr.Pack]

A lot of ignorant sports writers voted for this award, in my opinion. Woodson had a great season to be sure, but no way he had a better year than Revis. I agree with the sentiment that if the players had voted the results would have been different.

Revis was a fantastic cover corner, but look at how many different things Woodson did for his team.Woodson - 74 tackles, 2 sacks, 4 forced fumbles, 9 interceptions, 3 touchdowns, 18 passes defensedRevis - 54 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles, 6 interceptions, 1 touchdown, 31 passes defensed

Question - How accurately do folks think these stats reflect the value of a shutdown type corner?J

Don't know, but I do know you can see the value of Woodson to the Packers with those numbers.

I don't think anyone is disputing the value Woodson is to the Packers.I'm more trying to get at whether people think these stats reflect the value of a shut down corner. Seems to me that for this particular position where a corner is tasked with taking the other teams best WR out of the game, these stats are actually a pretty poor, if not outright misleading, indicator.I don't have any better stats so I guess I'm just whining. But watching the games and watching a guy like Revis virtually eliminate the best WR all by himself is incredible. It's almost like playing with 12 guys when you can put your CB on the teams best WR and take him out of the game.J

I am getting confused here, was this Award for Best Cornerback of the year, or Best Defensive Player?

 

[Mr.Pack]

I'm not entirely sure, but i have to think that Woodson's higher tackle numbers are at least sort of due to the fact that the guys he was guarding caught the ball more. You can't make tackles if your guy doesnt catch the ball. (well, at least its very dificult when you're playing man coverage all the time).

Good grief. Fish somewhere else please.

how in the world is this fishing? I said i dont have the stats (i'm sure chase will be by with them in a minute) but its pretty much common sense that you'll have more opportunities to make tackles if the man you're guarding is catching the ball more often. Revis' man almost never caught the ball. You cant make tackles when they dont throw at you.

Woodson is the general on defense for the Packers. He is in charge of all 11 guys on that D when the offense comes up to the LOS. He makes adjustments, moves people around, he's the QB of that D. He also blitzes and helps out in run support as well....maybe that's where all the tackles came from.If the award was for Cover Corner of the Year, it would go to Revis without question. But it's not. Revis is in charge of covering the opposing team's top WR, and taking him out of the game.....and he's the #1 guy in the NFL at that job. But that's all he does. It means a lot to his team, of course, but does it mean more than what Woodson does for his team? IMO and the opinions of the voters, no.

At least I don't feel confused anymore

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Anyone else find it funny that the only people in this thread defending Woodson are Packers homers?

Granted some on the Revis side are Jets fans, but others are not.

Wierd

 

[Mr.Pack]

Anyone else find it funny that the only people in this thread defending Woodson are Packers homers?Granted some on the Revis side are Jets fans, but others are not.Wierd

Was this an award for the Defensive Player of the year, or the Cornerback of the year?

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Anyone else find it funny that the only people in this thread defending Woodson are Packers homers?Granted some on the Revis side are Jets fans, but others are not.Wierd

Was this an award for the Defensive Player of the year, or the Cornerback of the year?

Did Charles Woodson miss the tackle vs Early Doucet last week that put the Cardinals into a prime position to win the game or was that some other Packers defender who didn't win the DPOY?

 

[Jeremy]

Anyone else find it funny that the only people in this thread defending Woodson are Packers homers?Granted some on the Revis side are Jets fans, but others are not.Wierd

How fortunate for us that there are apparently 28 Packer "homers" out of 50 on the voting panel.

 

[Mr.Pack]

Anyone else find it funny that the only people in this thread defending Woodson are Packers homers?Granted some on the Revis side are Jets fans, but others are not.Wierd

Was this an award for the Defensive Player of the year, or the Cornerback of the year?

Did Charles Woodson miss the tackle vs Early Doucet last week that put the Cardinals into a prime position to win the game or was that some other Packers defender who didn't win the DPOY?

The award is based on the regular season. Try again.Weak, and getting weaker by the minute.

 

[Joe Bryant]

i am a little surprised that woodson still got this award, after being torched by the steelers a few weeks back and the playoff game the other day. thought revis deserved it more.

So if Vincent Jackson gets physical with Revis, pushes off, and has a big day with over 100 yards and a td or 2 in this weekend's playoff game, will Revis deserve it less then?

Absolutely. Most all the hype over Revis has been the ability for him to shut down the teams #1 WR. If Jackson goes off, that would go against all the props we've been giving Revis. Doesn't mean he's no good. But definitely would weaken the argument.J

I believe it's an honor given out based on regular season play, is it not?

I think the voting deadline is right after week 17. Not sure what you mean though.Are you saying what a guy does in the post season has no bearing on what we think of an inseason award? This is a bunch of Football junkies second guessing decisions. That's what we do.If Peyton Manning throws 6 interceptions and no TDs this weekend and Drew Brees has 400 yards / 5 TDs and 0 interceptions, do you think it's out of line to say Manning deserves the MVP a little less than he does today?J

 

[Mr.Pack]

i am a little surprised that woodson still got this award, after being torched by the steelers a few weeks back and the playoff game the other day. thought revis deserved it more.

So if Vincent Jackson gets physical with Revis, pushes off, and has a big day with over 100 yards and a td or 2 in this weekend's playoff game, will Revis deserve it less then?

Absolutely. Most all the hype over Revis has been the ability for him to shut down the teams #1 WR. If Jackson goes off, that would go against all the props we've been giving Revis. Doesn't mean he's no good. But definitely would weaken the argument.J

I believe it's an honor given out based on regular season play, is it not?

I think the voting deadline is right after week 17. Not sure what you mean though.Are you saying what a guy does in the post season has no bearing on what we think of an inseason award?

If Peyton Manning throws 6 interceptions and no TDs this weekend and Drew Brees has 400 yards / 5 TDs and 0 interceptions, do you think it's out of line to say Manning deserves the MVP a little less than he does today?

J

Yes, because the award is based on the regular season. Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

[Joe Bryant]

I am getting confused here, was this Award for Best Cornerback of the year, or Best Defensive Player?

That's another discussion and one probably worth having. But I think what we're doing here is mostly talking Woodson vs Revis.J

 

[Joe Bryant]

Yes, because the award is based on the regular season. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Your point is easy to understand. I just disagree with it. J

 

[Mr.Pack]

I am getting confused here, was this Award for Best Cornerback of the year, or Best Defensive Player?

That's another discussion and one probably worth having. But I think what we're doing here is mostly talking Woodson vs Revis.J

The thread title is Charles Woodson Voted AP's top defensive player.The discussion is who should have won, not who is the best CB.Woodson is much more involved in the Defense than Revis. Revis is one hell of a CB, but isn't involved nearly as much in the overall Defensive scheme as Woodson, and the stats bear it out.I think the Revis vs Woodson, whos the best CB is worth a discussion, but that's for a different thread.

 

[Mr.Pack]

Yes, because the award is based on the regular season. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Your point is easy to understand. I just disagree with it. J

That's a horse of a different color. As long as that's how they vote on it, that's how it will be.Maybe it should be the entire season, but the guys who don't make it as far will be at a disadvantage. Especially if they are truly deserving.

 

[JJP]

the guy that replaced him could not cover. He was guilty of several PI penalties in the game against Baltimore and probably got away with a few PIs that weren't called. QBs clearly wanted to look toward his side and not Woodson's.

Tramon Williams is a solid young CB. Judging him (and anyone else for that matter) on that 3 ring circus that went on in that Monday Night game would be selling him short.

I'm judging him on the final 5-6 games or however many he played after Al Harris got hurt. He's brutal; the only way he can cover a receiver is to grab a hold of their jersey. GB has to get him off the field. He's definitely a big reason Warner put up the insane numbers last week and Roethlisberger put up insane numbers against them a few weeks back.

 

[Chaka]

Is it that difficult to spell out Charles?

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Anyone else find it funny that the only people in this thread defending Woodson are Packers homers?Granted some on the Revis side are Jets fans, but others are not.Wierd

How fortunate for us that there are apparently 28 Packer "homers" out of 50 on the voting panel.

Perhaps we will never know that.However I do know that 10 packers fans have commented in this thread:-scrumptulescent-Michael Fox-Mr. Pack-jurrassic-sho nuff-trader jake-Jeremy-Chicago Hooligan-Ditkaless Wonder-Sabertooth

 

[Joe Bryant]

I think the Revis vs Woodson, whos the best CB is worth a discussion, but that's for a different thread.

Sorry, that's pretty much become this thread. Things move fast sometimes. But it's really not much of a jump. Woodson is DPOY. Some people think it should have been Revis. Discussing Woodson vs Revis then is the logical progression of the thread. J

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

I am getting confused here, was this Award for Best Cornerback of the year, or Best Defensive Player?

That's another discussion and one probably worth having. But I think what we're doing here is mostly talking Woodson vs Revis.J

The thread title is Charles Woodson Voted AP's top defensive player.The discussion is who should have won, not who is the best CB.Woodson is much more involved in the Defense than Revis. Revis is one hell of a CB, but isn't involved nearly as much in the overall Defensive scheme as Woodson, and the stats bear it out.I think the Revis vs Woodson, whos the best CB is worth a discussion, but that's for a different thread.

This is a very unfair and biased arguement.How do YOU know what the defensive schemes were? YOU DON'Tzone/man it doesn't matter, all you are going by is statistics. But again that doesn't make anyone a better defensive player than another.Deion Sanders didn't have many forced fumbles or sacks....does that mean he wasn't a good defensive player? No, because Dallas schemed for him to match up with the opponents worst starting WR....so they could shift the saftey(help) coverage to the opposite side of the field. Those are the things that stats do not show....but are huge within the scheme of the defense.

 

[metal]

I think the point is this in the discussion of Revis V Woodson, who is more of an impact and influential player.

This past season, both have been great talents, but if I were a head coach, I would take my chances throwing at Woodson vs Revis. However Woodson does do so much more for that defense and is more involved in big plays. On the opposite side, Revis has the capability of going one on one with any WR and effectively take him out of the game giving the Jets the luxury of focusing more on a weakness or strength with more people while Revis does his work on the outside. Woodson is a turnover machine but ultimately doesn't have the top end speed and coverage of Revis. So while some can say Woodson has done more this season, I would contend that Revis allows more players to make plays and effectively take out any wide receiver he lines up against.

I'm probably spewing things that have been posted in this thread so sorry for any sort of retreading.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

I think the point is this in the discussion of Revis V Woodson, who is more of an impact and influential player.This past season, both have been great talents, but if I were a head coach, I would take my chances throwing at Woodson vs Revis. However Woodson does do so much more for that defense and is more involved in big plays. On the opposite side, Revis has the capability of going one on one with any WR and effectively take him out of the game giving the Jets the luxury of focusing more on a weakness or strength with more people while Revis does his work on the outside. Woodson is a turnover machine but ultimately doesn't have the top end speed and tackling ability of Revis. So while some can say Woodson has done more this season, I would contend that Revis allows more players to make plays and effectively take out any wide receiver he lines up against. I'm probably spewing things that have been posted in this thread so sorry for any sort of retreading.

That is my point in the post above.

 

[Jeremy]

Anyone else find it funny that the only people in this thread defending Woodson are Packers homers?Granted some on the Revis side are Jets fans, but others are not.Wierd

How fortunate for us that there are apparently 28 Packer "homers" out of 50 on the voting panel.

Perhaps we will never know that.However I do know that 10 packers fans have commented in this thread:-scrumptulescent-Michael Fox-Mr. Pack-jurrassic-sho nuff-trader jake-Jeremy-Chicago Hooligan-Ditkaless Wonder-Sabertooth

And I'd bet all or most of the Jets' fans would say Revis deserved it more. We have our biases. An independant panal found Woodson more deserving by a 2:1 margin. Not saying they're all experts (2 of them voted for Jaren Allen ), but it's not just Packers homers who feel they got it right. We're on a fantasy football message board. We know from painful experience that our stud WRs are useless going against the Jets, so Revis gets more of the attention from those who don't follow either team closely. Charles Woodson didn't scare us as much because that's not the only way he contributed. He rushed the passer on several plays every game (before the Al Harris injury anyway), he played safety. Sometime he covered the WRs, sometimes the TE. Sometimes he was in run support. They used him in every way possible and he excelled in all of them. One play late in the season that I think really defined what Woodson did for this team was a first and goal play at the 1 yard line against the Ravens after a PI from another corner. He came off the corner and pulled the RB down at the 3 yard line. The next play was an INT. You didn't see that play on Sportscenter, but it changed everything. A TD there and it's a one possession game. Plays like that were commonplace this year from him. Unless you had Ray Rice the average fantasy geek isn't going to notice that.

 

[boubucarow]

Anyone else find it funny that the only people in this thread defending Woodson are Packers homers?Granted some on the Revis side are Jets fans, but others are not.Wierd

Was this an award for the Defensive Player of the year, or the Cornerback of the year?

The argument is that Revis was such a good cornerback that he made up the difference in impact gained by Woodson as a play maker. If you disagree, fine. Assuming these numbers are close to valid:Woodson - 39-76-448-5-9; 51.8 ratingRevis - 41-111-425-2-6; 32.3 ratingWoodson gave up a TD on every 15.2 passes thrown his way.Revis gave up a TD on every 55.5 passes thrown his way.Woodson accounted for 46 incompletions on passes thrown his way.Revis accounted for 76 incompletions on passes thrown his way.Woodson allowed 5.89 yards per pass thrown his way.Revis allowed 3.82 yards per pass thrown his way.Is extra 40 passes per TD allowed, 30 extra incompletions, and 2 yards less on the passes thrown his way worth Woodson's extra 20 tackles, 2 sacks, 3 picks, 2 tds, 4 ff, and fumble recovery?In addition, was Revis such a good cover corner that he impacted the play of his team more, the less, or the same as Woodson's all around play did?That should be the discussion here and IMO a very valid discussion.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Anyone else find it funny that the only people in this thread defending Woodson are Packers homers?

Granted some on the Revis side are Jets fans, but others are not.

Wierd

Was this an award for the Defensive Player of the year, or the Cornerback of the year?

The argument is that Revis was such a good cornerback that he made up the difference in impact gained by Woodson as a play maker. If you disagree, fine. Assuming these numbers are close to valid:

Woodson - 39-76-448-5-9; 51.8 rating

Revis - 41-111-425-2-6; 32.3 rating

Woodson gave up a TD on every 15.2 passes thrown his way.

Revis gave up a TD on every 55.5 passes thrown his way.

Woodson accounted for 46 incompletions on passes thrown his way.

Revis accounted for 76 incompletions on passes thrown his way.

Woodson allowed 5.89 yards per pass thrown his way.

Revis allowed 3.82 yards per pass thrown his way.



Is extra 40 passes per TD allowed, 30 extra incompletions, and 2 yards less on the passes thrown his way worth Woodson's extra 20 tackles, 2 sacks, 3 picks, 2 tds, 4 ff, and fumble recovery?

In addition, was Revis such a good cover corner that he impacted the play of his team more, the less, or the same as Woodson's all around play did?

That should be the discussion here and IMO a very valid discussion.

I agree - I think that's a good discussion.Cover corners are really a tough position to accurately measure with stats in my opinion.

J

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Anyone else find it funny that the only people in this thread defending Woodson are Packers homers?Granted some on the Revis side are Jets fans, but others are not.Wierd

How fortunate for us that there are apparently 28 Packer "homers" out of 50 on the voting panel.

Perhaps we will never know that.However I do know that 10 packers fans have commented in this thread:-scrumptulescent-Michael Fox-Mr. Pack-jurrassic-sho nuff-trader jake-Jeremy-Chicago Hooligan-Ditkaless Wonder-Sabertooth

And I'd bet all or most of the Jets' fans would say Revis deserved it more. We have our biases. An independant panal found Woodson more deserving by a 2:1 margin. Not saying they're all experts (2 of them voted for Jaren Allen ), but it's not just Packers homers who feel they got it right. We're on a fantasy football message board. We know from painful experience that our stud WRs are useless going against the Jets, so Revis gets more of the attention from those who don't follow either team closely. Charles Woodson didn't scare us as much because that's not the only way he contributed. He rushed the passer on several plays every game (before the Al Harris injury anyway), he played safety. Sometime he covered the WRs, sometimes the TE. Sometimes he was in run support. They used him in every way possible and he excelled in all of them. One play late in the season that I think really defined what Woodson did for this team was a first and goal play at the 1 yard line against the Ravens after a PI from another corner. He came off the corner and pulled the RB down at the 3 yard line. The next play was an INT. You didn't see that play on Sportscenter, but it changed everything. A TD there and it's a one possession game. Plays like that were commonplace this year from him. Unless you had Ray Rice the average fantasy geek isn't going to notice that.

Revis and Woodson were used in different ways. Thats a given and its hard to measure that.I just believe that if Revis gives up two TD's to Chad Ochocinco this weekend and lets Andre Caldwell beat him on a slant...then misses the tackle to put the Bengals into a position to win the game.....this is a completely different discussion.

 

[jurrassic]

But watching the games and watching a guy like Revis virtually eliminate the best WR all by himself is incredible. It's almost like playing with 12 guys when you can put your CB on the teams best WR and take him out of the game.

Sorry Joe, but this fiction has been debunked repeatedly. Revis is a GREAT defensive back, but the myth that he can shut down half the field alone is just plain wrong. I'm too lazy to dig up a link, but Belicheat was quite vocal that Revis got help underneath and over the top against Moss and the Pats. He gets help every game (no crime in that BTW - every DB gets help in some schemes/situations). So please, let's stop making stuff up to support Revis. He doesn't need falsehoods to justify his success - the guy is the best cover CB in the league. But he DOES get help.

Sorry - not "making stuff up". I only wrote what I did after watching games. Of course there are time when other players get in the mix. But by and large, he does by himself what lots of teams take 2 guys to do. J

You didn't come out equally impressed with what Woodson has been able to do? I don't know if you give equal time to both teams, but Woodson made a game changing play in nearly every game and it wasn't all in coverage. Admittedly I've watched nearly every minute of the Packers season and only a few games of the Jets, so I'm not getting the full appreciation of Revis from my end. But he had to have damn near walked on water if he impressed you that much more than Woodson. Woodson was AMAZING this year.

You have to be impressed with Woodson. No doubt. And I like the guy a lot. Even pimped him in the Random Shots. But I was more impressed with Revis. In a league that is becoming more passing focused every year, the ability for a team to take away a teams #1 WR without sacrificing another player with double coverage is a huge advantage.Impressed with Woodson? Absolutely. No way you couldn't be. Equally impressed as I was with Revis? No. J

I respect everyone opinions in here, but Woodson won the thing in a landslide. As far as the AP was concerned it wasn't even close. Revis is a hell of a lockdown corner but Woodson right now is a more complete football player who made more impact plays.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I respect everyone opinions in here, but Woodson won the thing in a landslide. As far as the AP was concerned it wasn't even close. Revis is a hell of a lockdown corner but Woodson right now is a more complete football player who made more impact plays.

To be fair, there are people here I respect more than I do some of the sports writers.J

 

[Michael Fox Fan]

I respect everyone opinions in here, but Woodson won the thing in a landslide. As far as the AP was concerned it wasn't even close. Revis is a hell of a lockdown corner but Woodson right now is a more complete football player who made more impact plays.

To be fair, there are people here I respect more than I do some of the sports writers.J

I suppose there isn't any chance you'll share even a couple of the sports writer names who don't make the cut.

 

[jurrassic]

I respect everyone opinions in here, but Woodson won the thing in a landslide. As far as the AP was concerned it wasn't even close. Revis is a hell of a lockdown corner but Woodson right now is a more complete football player who made more impact plays.

To be fair, there are people here I respect more than I do some of the sports writers.J

You're probably right. My point is not that Revis didn't deserve the award. It's with people somehow trying to argue Woodson didn't. They both had great seasons, I just think, as with most press players in all sports get, Woodson made more impact plays. There is something to be said for being part of the highlight package each week.

 

[Touchdown Syndrome]

As a Jets fan, I was obviously hoping Revis would win it, but I expected Woodson would.

Difficult to ignore the int. and TD numbers. No doubt, Woodson was a beast this year.

As far as being a shut-down CB, Revis was superior this season, and was the best I saw since Deion's heyday. I've never seen a corner so dominant on a week-to-week basis.

However, if Revis was 1a I'd give Woodson 1b. Good for him. I've liked Woodson since he won the Heisman over Peyton (I was so mad that Manning stayed for his senior year instead of entering the '97 draft....when the Jets had the #1 pick).