Claiborne scores a FOUR on the Wonderlic! (2 Viewers)

[delusional]

Be it college or professional sports, we all know that talent trumps education. The key question is how was he allowed to graduate from high school.

Not that difficult depending what school he went too. I was transferred to a public school half way through my senior year ( coming from a private school ). I was put in an english class because I was falling literature at my old school ( shakespeare & things of that nature ). In this class we literally had to match words. As in CAT ---- KiTTEN, DOG---PUPPY... I couldn't take it. I had to get out of that class, I felt like I was actually punishing myself by being in there. I spent 2 weeks talking with the teacher during class one on one about everyday ####. Sad part is kids had trouble in the class. This is senior year, 16-18 year olds. So yea, i can see him passing high school easily

 

[Hoosier16]

This guy has been in school for 20+ years.University, even. If he is scoring a 4 on the test, this is more the fault of the American educational system, than anything else.

You're kidding, right?

Why would he be kidding?

I don't know. I was thinking some wild idea that maybe the fault lies more with Claiborne?

Because he might have a neurologically- and developmentally-based learning disorder?

No, I am far from kidding.As a post secondary educator, I could go on a lengthy diatribe, or even get a colleague from the Applied Disabilities department to do it for me.But I digress, as it should be self explanatory as to how this is largely the American Educational System's fault.

Either the disability or disorder can be fixed (or improved) or it can't. If it can't, then there is no fault. Your assertion of fault suggests it can be fixed or improved. If so, then yeah, I think the responsibility lies mostly with Claiborne (or his guardian). When is it the individual's responsibility to seek help or apply effort? Judging from his response on twitter, I'm guessing that he still doesn't really care. You can't force someone to learn.

 

[GroveDiesel]

So PFT reported yesterday that the organization that puts on the combine and administers the Wonderlic DOES make accommodations. The player or agent has to notify the organization a few weeks ahead of time. They then talk with the school to find out what kind of accommodations have been made by the school for the player. The player then takes the normal 10 minute test and then is given all the time he needs to finish the test. The group then uses some formula to reconcile the two scores to come up with the final score for the player.

With Bus Cook saying he had no idea about Claiborne's learning disability, it seems clear that Claiborne COULD have gotten an accommodation but DIDN'T.

If all of that is true, Claiborne should immediately fire Bus Cook. It's the agent's job to make sure he knows enough about his client to make sure that doesn't happen. A simple practice Wonderlic or even asking him if the test could be a problem would have avoided this whole thing. Frankly, the organization that certifies agents should investigate and consider some type of censure or punishment for Cook.

 

[Hoosier16]

So PFT reported yesterday that the organization that puts on the combine and administers the Wonderlic DOES make accommodations. The player or agent has to notify the organization a few weeks ahead of time. They then talk with the school to find out what kind of accommodations have been made by the school for the player. The player then takes the normal 10 minute test and then is given all the time he needs to finish the test. The group then uses some formula to reconcile the two scores to come up with the final score for the player.With Bus Cook saying he had no idea about Claiborne's learning disability, it seems clear that Claiborne COULD have gotten an accommodation but DIDN'T. If all of that is true, Claiborne should immediately fire Bus Cook. It's the agent's job to make sure he knows enough about his client to make sure that doesn't happen. A simple practice Wonderlic or even asking him if the test could be a problem would have avoided this whole thing. Frankly, the organization that certifies agents should investigate and consider some type of censure or punishment for Cook.

So now it's the agent's fault? When does Claiborne, as an adult, have to start taking responsibility? If Cook knew, and did nothing, then I'd agree he was negligent and should be fired. If Claiborne doesn't disclose his very serious problem, then it's his own fault.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

So PFT reported yesterday that the organization that puts on the combine and administers the Wonderlic DOES make accommodations. The player or agent has to notify the organization a few weeks ahead of time. They then talk with the school to find out what kind of accommodations have been made by the school for the player. The player then takes the normal 10 minute test and then is given all the time he needs to finish the test. The group then uses some formula to reconcile the two scores to come up with the final score for the player.With Bus Cook saying he had no idea about Claiborne's learning disability, it seems clear that Claiborne COULD have gotten an accommodation but DIDN'T. If all of that is true, Claiborne should immediately fire Bus Cook. It's the agent's job to make sure he knows enough about his client to make sure that doesn't happen. A simple practice Wonderlic or even asking him if the test could be a problem would have avoided this whole thing. Frankly, the organization that certifies agents should investigate and consider some type of censure or punishment for Cook.

So now it's the agent's fault? When does Claiborne, as an adult, have to start taking responsibility?

And that's the kind of stuff I was hinting towards with my earlier post that it may cause problems with the off-the-field actions.

 

[GroveDiesel]

So PFT reported yesterday that the organization that puts on the combine and administers the Wonderlic DOES make accommodations. The player or agent has to notify the organization a few weeks ahead of time. They then talk with the school to find out what kind of accommodations have been made by the school for the player. The player then takes the normal 10 minute test and then is given all the time he needs to finish the test. The group then uses some formula to reconcile the two scores to come up with the final score for the player.With Bus Cook saying he had no idea about Claiborne's learning disability, it seems clear that Claiborne COULD have gotten an accommodation but DIDN'T. If all of that is true, Claiborne should immediately fire Bus Cook. It's the agent's job to make sure he knows enough about his client to make sure that doesn't happen. A simple practice Wonderlic or even asking him if the test could be a problem would have avoided this whole thing. Frankly, the organization that certifies agents should investigate and consider some type of censure or punishment for Cook.

So now it's the agent's fault? When does Claiborne, as an adult, have to start taking responsibility? If Cook knew, and did nothing, then I'd agree he was negligent and should be fired. If Claiborne doesn't disclose his very serious problem, then it's his own fault.

People hire lawyers, realtors, accountants, etc. for their expertise when handling things they're not experienced in. When things go bad, we can say that the individual ultimately bears some blame, but the expert is hired specifically to avoid those problems.

 

[cobalt_27]

This guy has been in school for 20+ years.University, even. If he is scoring a 4 on the test, this is more the fault of the American educational system, than anything else.

You're kidding, right?

Why would he be kidding?

I don't know. I was thinking some wild idea that maybe the fault lies more with Claiborne?

Because he might have a neurologically- and developmentally-based learning disorder?

No, I am far from kidding.As a post secondary educator, I could go on a lengthy diatribe, or even get a colleague from the Applied Disabilities department to do it for me.But I digress, as it should be self explanatory as to how this is largely the American Educational System's fault.

As a neuropsychologist, I'm not kidding either.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

So PFT reported yesterday that the organization that puts on the combine and administers the Wonderlic DOES make accommodations. The player or agent has to notify the organization a few weeks ahead of time. They then talk with the school to find out what kind of accommodations have been made by the school for the player. The player then takes the normal 10 minute test and then is given all the time he needs to finish the test. The group then uses some formula to reconcile the two scores to come up with the final score for the player.With Bus Cook saying he had no idea about Claiborne's learning disability, it seems clear that Claiborne COULD have gotten an accommodation but DIDN'T. If all of that is true, Claiborne should immediately fire Bus Cook. It's the agent's job to make sure he knows enough about his client to make sure that doesn't happen. A simple practice Wonderlic or even asking him if the test could be a problem would have avoided this whole thing. Frankly, the organization that certifies agents should investigate and consider some type of censure or punishment for Cook.

So now it's the agent's fault? When does Claiborne, as an adult, have to start taking responsibility? If Cook knew, and did nothing, then I'd agree he was negligent and should be fired. If Claiborne doesn't disclose his very serious problem, then it's his own fault.

People hire lawyers, realtors, accountants, etc. for their expertise when handling things they're not experienced in. When things go bad, we can say that the individual ultimately bears some blame, but the expert is hired specifically to avoid those problems.

Claiborne has known for years that he was going to have to take the Wonderlic...they all know.....and quite frankly I am sure he has been dreading it for years.....he knew he was going to have to take it, everybody in his family and his posse knew he was going to have to take it....I'd be willing to bet it was discussed on 100's of occasions...probably in a joking matter, "dude, you gonna #### that part up"...."word"....it's not like he didn't know this was coming and (if he really does have a disability) he couldn't disclose his disability...if he does have a disability I'm sure the NFL, people administiring the tests, everybody, knew WAY ahead of time about his disability, (unless he has just been passed along this whole time)....he and ANYBODY that gave a crap about him should have been asking for the accomodations...do we really not think his family and his posse did not talk about the Wonderlic at any point prior to him walking in a room to take the test....part of me is starting to think that maybe they didn't bring it up ahead of time because they knew it wouldn't have really made a difference and this is a way to "save face" so to speak....bomb it and then blame it on everybody else if it gets leaked and have a built in excuse for your score and never have to "take it again" even with accomodations because it doesn't matter anyway and the poor kid has been embarassed enough already....something is fishy....and not sure this is an agent's fault at all....we'll see

 

[rizzler]

Either the disability or disorder can be fixed (or improved) or it can't. If it can't, then there is no fault. Your assertion of fault suggests it can be fixed or improved. If so, then yeah, I think the responsibility lies mostly with Claiborne (or his guardian). When is it the individual's responsibility to seek help or apply effort? Judging from his response on twitter, I'm guessing that he still doesn't really care. You can't force someone to learn.

You realize he was in University, correct?Which in turn SHOULD imply he had a certain level of intelligence based on some sort of academic testing.As I said, this is the fault of the American Educational System.

 

[Yenrub]

I don't totally disregard the Wonderlic, but about the only time I pay attention to it is when a QB prospect scores low. It's all about football aptitude.

I know a guy who isn't book smart. Has some trouble reading & such. He likely wouldn't do well on the Wonderlic at all. However, the dude is a mechanical genius. Can fix anything. Even complicated machinery. That's called mechanical aptitude.

Claiborne probably has some sort of reading disorder or simply may not be very good at it. It doesn't mean his football aptitude will be hindered, though.

Is his name
?

 

[cobalt_27]

Either the disability or disorder can be fixed (or improved) or it can't. If it can't, then there is no fault. Your assertion of fault suggests it can be fixed or improved. If so, then yeah, I think the responsibility lies mostly with Claiborne (or his guardian). When is it the individual's responsibility to seek help or apply effort? Judging from his response on twitter, I'm guessing that he still doesn't really care. You can't force someone to learn.

You realize he was in University, correct?Which in turn SHOULD imply he had a certain level of intelligence based on some sort of academic testing.As I said, this is the fault of the American Educational System.

Your understanding of the implication and what should be the case is incorrect. Fault is not all in the shoulders of the AES. Much broader than that.

 

[rizzler]

Either the disability or disorder can be fixed (or improved) or it can't. If it can't, then there is no fault. Your assertion of fault suggests it can be fixed or improved. If so, then yeah, I think the responsibility lies mostly with Claiborne (or his guardian). When is it the individual's responsibility to seek help or apply effort? Judging from his response on twitter, I'm guessing that he still doesn't really care. You can't force someone to learn.

You realize he was in University, correct?Which in turn SHOULD imply he had a certain level of intelligence based on some sort of academic testing.

As I said, this is the fault of the American Educational System.

Your understanding of the implication and what should be the case is incorrect. Fault is not all in the shoulders of the AES. Much broader than that.

Let me further explain my point to see where we sit on the fence, as I made my reply in a hurry. (This will be broken down quite simply, as I am still not blessed with free time)

My statement of the AES being a failure, isn't in reference to the Claiborne's Wonderlic score of 4. His score of 4 could be based on countless different and completely independent factors, learning disabilities, developmental delays, and so on.

The AES is a failure in this case, due to the fact that an individual has somehow (the term somehow is used VERY loosely, because we know the reason [sport]) progressed through elementary, secondary, and a fairly prestigious post secondary institution, with seemingly little to no consideration or accommodation having ever been made for his disability.

This is turn implies what we all knew was happening, but has now been magnified to new levels. The AES removes emphasis on the actual academic education of individuals who are blessed with strong athletic ability

This isn't new. It isn't a revelation. but when an individual not only scores a score as low as 4 on a Wonderlic test, but individuals including his agent did not know that Claiborne needed accomodation for the testing, again may imply conditioning on Claiborne's behalf that his athletic ability will override his academic "failures".

This was a quick, and broad response... I myself can find flaws in what I wrote, as it was made quickly and to just try and covey a basic point.

The AES is mostly at fault.

 

[Football Jones]

It's the Wonderlic & things like 40 times which are still holding modern scouting back. It's almost like these teams no better, but just can't help moving a player up several full rounds because he blows up the 40.

Nothing is a better indicator of talent than play on the field (& football-specific drills). In the vast majority of cases, all these tests & times should only be used to put the final touches on a player's grade. Only in situations where scouts can't get a good read on their play should tests & times be given important consideration. You can project a player's potential without putting too much emphasis on tests & times.

There would be much fewer busts if NFL teams lived by this creed.

 

[Hoosier16]

The AES removes emphasis on the actual academic education of individuals who are blessed with strong athletic ability

The AES is mostly at fault.

We are so far apart on this that it's probably not even worth discussing. You clearly think it's the responsibility of the AES to make sure I'm educated and if I don't succeed, then the AES has failed. I think it's the responsibility of the AES to give me an opportunity to be educated and if we don't succeed, then I have failed.

 

[jurb26]

It's the Wonderlic & things like 40 times which are still holding modern scouting back. It's almost like these teams no better, but just can't help moving a player up several full rounds because he blows up the 40.Nothing is a better indicator of talent than play on the field (& football-specific drills). In the vast majority of cases, all these tests & times should only be used to put the final touches on a player's grade. Only in situations where scouts can't get a good read on their play should tests & times be given important consideration. You can project a player's potential without putting too much emphasis on tests & times.There would be much fewer busts if NFL teams lived by this creed.

I'm at how so many people are acting as though the Wonderlic is an equivalent to taking the SATs or something here. Now Claiborne was supposed to do not only score higher on the Wonderlic, but also do his agents JOB in knowing the insides of how to make sure the test was specifically set up for him? Perhaps the reason none of this was done is because the answer is much more simple than anyone wants to admit. Most players, scouts, coaches, GM, owners or anyone related to football just don't care about the Wonderlic. It's a silliness that comes with the process but is meaningless in the end result. I'm not sure why so many here seem to care about it so much.

 

[coolnerd]

It's the Wonderlic & things like 40 times which are still holding modern scouting back. It's almost like these teams no better, but just can't help moving a player up several full rounds because he blows up the 40.Nothing is a better indicator of talent than play on the field (& football-specific drills). In the vast majority of cases, all these tests & times should only be used to put the final touches on a player's grade. Only in situations where scouts can't get a good read on their play should tests & times be given important consideration. You can project a player's potential without putting too much emphasis on tests & times.There would be much fewer busts if NFL teams lived by this creed.

Honestly, there is a lot of mythology about players moving up and down actual boards based on something like fourty times etc. From comments I have gathered over the years from real GMs, the draft board set in Feb is about 85-90% accurate to the final board. Not saying that 10-15% does not matter, but the "he helped an old lady across the street" so he moves up or "he spit on the sidewalk" so move him down stuff largely is media generated. The reality is that lower than expected 40 or wonderlic at best causes a team to go back at look at the tape closer or question a prospect diferently face to face, but your notion is already correct. Most teams don't react in these kneejerk manners that draftniks make the general public think.

 

[CapnJB]

I think it's the responsibility of the AES to give me an opportunity to be educated and if we don't succeed, then I have failed.

Right. But if you fail and the system pushes you through to the next level regardless... and continues to do so, the system is broken.

 

[Football Jones]

It's the Wonderlic & things like 40 times which are still holding modern scouting back. It's almost like these teams no better, but just can't help moving a player up several full rounds because he blows up the 40.

Nothing is a better indicator of talent than play on the field (& football-specific drills). In the vast majority of cases, all these tests & times should only be used to put the final touches on a player's grade. Only in situations where scouts can't get a good read on their play should tests & times be given important consideration. You can project a player's potential without putting too much emphasis on tests & times.

There would be much fewer busts if NFL teams lived by this creed.

Honestly, there is a lot of mythology about players moving up and down actual boards based on something like fourty times etc. From comments I have gathered over the years from real GMs, the draft board set in Feb is about 85-90% accurate to the final board. Not saying that 10-15% does not matter, but the "he helped an old lady across the street" so he moves up or "he spit on the sidewalk" so move him down stuff largely is media generated. The reality is that lower than expected 40 or wonderlic at best causes a team to go back at look at the tape closer or question a prospect diferently face to face, but your notion is already correct. Most teams don't react in these kneejerk manners that draftniks make the general public think.

I'm simply saying teams still make enormous mistakes caused by putting too much emphasis on tests & times instead of play on the field & football ability. You have to project, but you can do that without putting too much emphasis on tests/times. It can be done by evaluating the sum of a player's individual physical & mental traits as it relates to football (arm strength for a QB, etc.). I'm not saying tests/times are irrelevant, but too many times players are being pushed up the board because of these tests/times. I see teams do it every year & only a fraction pay off. For one, if they're going to put so much emphasis on the 40, it needs to be done in pads & helmet. Secondly, put more emphasis on the 10-yard split. Quickness is much more important than long speed at any position.

I don't pretend to be in NFL War Rooms. That said, teams are still making avoidable mistakes by putting too much emphasis on tests & times (in general).

 

[Hoosier16]

I think it's the responsibility of the AES to give me an opportunity to be educated and if we don't succeed, then I have failed.

Right. But if you fail and the system pushes you through to the next level regardless... and continues to do so, the system is broken.

Nobody forces me through. I can be held back (as a child by a guardian) or choose to repeat (as an adult) at any time.

 

[scrumptrulescent]

Color me shocked, SHOCKED, that a star football player from an SEC school scores a 4.

 

[rizzler]

I think it's the responsibility of the AES to give me an opportunity to be educated and if we don't succeed, then I have failed.

Right. But if you fail and the system pushes you through to the next level regardless... and continues to do so, the system is broken.

Nobody forces me through. I can be held back (as a child by a guardian) or choose to repeat (as an adult) at any time.

Hoosier, you've made my point for me.Children ARE forced through, especially when showing athletic promise.How is the system NOT broken, when parents and guardians make the decision whether or not a child is held back?That's like having Tom Brady's father make the decision what play to run on 3rd and 4, with the game on the line, as opposed to Belichik.

 

[CapnJB]

I think it's the responsibility of the AES to give me an opportunity to be educated and if we don't succeed, then I have failed.

Right. But if you fail and the system pushes you through to the next level regardless... and continues to do so, the system is broken.

Nobody forces me through. I can be held back (as a child by a guardian) or choose to repeat (as an adult) at any time.

Hoosier, you've made my point for me.Children ARE forced through, especially when showing athletic promise.How is the system NOT broken, when parents and guardians make the decision whether or not a child is held back?That's like having Tom Brady's father make the decision what play to run on 3rd and 4, with the game on the line, as opposed to Belichik.

I'm not sure that's the absolute best analogy but the subject matter is at least relevant The school system has it's own standards and metrics that determine whether a child is ready to advance to the next grade. When the school system disregards it's own system of standards and advances the child despite not meeting the required metrics, it is failing. Putting the onus on the parent to decide to hold back a child might work in an isolated incident, but as a whole is destined to fail. It's sad, but I guarantee you there are parents out there that don't give two sharts about their kids education and are happy to let the school system process them through...

 

[Two Deep]

If you can't read of course it is a disability. I have never heard of a disability that prevents you from learning to read though.

 

[CapnJB]

I have never heard of a disability that prevents you from learning to read though.

I have never heard of a person who has never heard of Dyslexia.

 

[Two Deep]

I have never heard of a disability that prevents you from learning to read though.

I have never heard of a person who has never heard of Dyslexia.

Yeah whatever, wasn't Helen Keller deaf and blind?

 

[CapnJB]

I have never heard of a disability that prevents you from learning to read though.

I have never heard of a person who has never heard of Dyslexia.

Yeah whatever, wasn't Helen Keller deaf and blind?

Correct on both assertions. Was there a point in there?

 

[rizzler]

I have never heard of a disability that prevents you from learning to read though.

I have never heard of a person who has never heard of Dyslexia.

Yeah whatever, wasn't Helen Keller deaf and blind?

???Then how does she run that regretsy website?

 

[Two Deep]

I have never heard of a disability that prevents you from learning to read though.

I have never heard of a person who has never heard of Dyslexia.

Yeah whatever, wasn't Helen Keller deaf and blind?

Correct on both assertions. Was there a point in there?

Point being, dyslexia can be overcome and does not prevent one from reading. Just like there were strategies for Helen, there too are strategies for Morris.

 

[CapnJB]

I have never heard of a disability that prevents you from learning to read though.

I have never heard of a person who has never heard of Dyslexia.

Yeah whatever, wasn't Helen Keller deaf and blind?

???Then how does she run that regretsy website?

Anne Sullivan and a Kinect.