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Cleveland Browns (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter wadegarrett
- Start date
ghostguy123
Footballguy
If we draft a QB at #4 I am going to be pissed (unless we traded pick #1 for a haul, but even then I would be a little upset if it meant we drafted a QB at 4).
I wouldnt trust a front office that thinks "eh, we will just get whichever if these 2-3 QBs that falls to 4". You take the guy you like the most at #1. Simple as that.
daveR
Footballguy
If you could draft any players you wanted, who would top your list?
Tier-1 Must have...
(nobody)
Tier-2 Really want...
Josh Allen, Derwin James, Minkah Fitz, Quenton Nelson, Derrious Guice
Tier-3 Would be happy with...
Barkley, another QB, a top OT, Roquan Smith, Mike Hughes
Tier-1 Must have...
(nobody)
Tier-2 Really want...
Josh Allen, Derwin James, Minkah Fitz, Quenton Nelson, Derrious Guice
Tier-3 Would be happy with...
Barkley, another QB, a top OT, Roquan Smith, Mike Hughes
daveR
Footballguy
This might be a better question for Bracie... If you were to trade 1.1 to BUF, what compensation would you require?
ghostguy123
Footballguy
21, 22, 53
2019 1st and 2nd
It's not likely someone will give up that many quality picks for just one pick, especially in a year where there is no stand out stud type QB, but ya never know. I would personally take that package right now (though prefer a 2020 1st rather than the 2019 2nd
).Not sure a GM wants to make their seat that hot though. If that QB isn't good, dude is fired pretty fast.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
There are so many routes we can go, but I will tell you this. If this draft ends and we did not pick up additional high future picks (1st and 2nd round), I am going to be pretty upset.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Still not a fan of going Mayfield. Didn't he do more idiotic things prior to being drafted than Johnny did? Is he all of a sudden going to become MORE responsible once he has millions in the bank?
Yes he is a better football player than Johnny, and all the comparisons to Johnny are not really fair, but the fact remains he was rather immature, and now will be thrown bags of cash. I am very skeptical to say the least.
Yes he is a better football player than Johnny, and all the comparisons to Johnny are not really fair, but the fact remains he was rather immature, and now will be thrown bags of cash. I am very skeptical to say the least.
DallasDMac
Footballguy
What if they consider two or three as equivalent in talent, all worthy of numbers 1, but knowing one will be available at number 4? Why would you use the number 1 on them when you know you'll be happy with what's available with a later pick?
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Because it is QB, the most important position of any sport, so get the one you want and not get cute over it.
That and the fact that the first 3 picks could easily be QB.
Just seems like something a bad GM would do.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
We have not settled the QB position and WR is far from stable. It is jumping the gun to say we have those pieces in place where we only need the RB to create triplets.
What we saw last year was a safety playing 35 yards off the LOS because his DC didn't trust the deep coverage. We desperately need a cover safety. Minka can fill that role plus provide outside coverage and help set the edge and fill LB holes. He is exactly what our defense needs and no one else in this draft is such a perfect fit.
Per Barkley. You know all of the reasons why a running game doesn't need one single bell cow RB and how the game is changed. Lets face it, Saquon is a PLUS-RB. He is the best RB from the draft and I simply don't think we need a PLUS-RB especially since Dorsey found a PLUS-RB in the 3rd round last year and this crop of RBs is deeper and we've got 4 picks in the 2nd/3rd round and I am sure we'll be able find a solid RB to fill our needs but take a look at the PFW breakdown of the top RBs from this draft.
http://www.profootballweekly.com/2018/02/14/pfw-nfl-draft-newsletter-sample-mosher-charts-the-top-rbs/a6fjmrs/#//
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
- Johnny was a drunk
- Johnny was celebrity who was more interested in his five minutes than playing NFL QB
- Johnny had serious mental issues with anger control to the point his parents sent him to counselling
- Johnny DIDN'T DO THE WORK he didn't know the plays and winged it because that is what he did in college and it worked there
I have a high floor on him because I know he will do the work and he'll stick around the NFL. I don't know his upside but I am confident of his floor. I think he will turn into a solid starter.
He isn't a celebrity and isn't seeking out the sort of crowd that Johnny did. He isn't sneeking around wearing wigs so he can party in Vegas hours after his first NFL win. He ISN'T Johnny Manziel.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
He also hasn't been paid yet.
He obviously isn't going to do all the dumb stuff johnny suckball did, but I can easily see him doing a bunch of other less-stupid things that could easily still derail his career.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Yeah, that is the answer to the one question each rookie QB will face.
If they fail, what is the most likely reason?
Every rookie has one reason why they can fail and you have thee answer on why Baker could fail. Yeah, he could. No doubt about it and so can each of the other QB prospects and each has their own questions.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Cant really call Baker a "drunk" for one time. However, between that rather STUPID AS HELL incident and some of his on field antics, I question his maturity. I think it is a reasonable thing to question based on just those few things.
daveR
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I get ya, but I don;t have any friends and family that are "drunks", and they have all been drunk dozens of times.
I also don't know many people in general who have never been drunk. I can only think of one person I have ever met that has never been drunk. Every QB in this draft has been drunk.
daveR
Footballguy
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Are you sure on Josh Allen? Josh Rosen? Sam Darnold?daveR said:
Your proffered QB is Allen. He has prototypical NFL size and arm strength but lacks NFL accuracy and rarely do college QBs improve their accuracy in the NFL. Pittsburgh GM Colbert said he would not touch any college QB who did not complete at least 63% of their throws.
Allen falls far below that threshold.
Allen is seen as the biggest risk of the top college QB prospects because everything is based on him improving his accuracy and that rarely happens in the NFL. That is the answer to the question of the one single reason why he'd fail.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Allen is not anywhere on my radar. Anywhere in the first round, at all. Or really in any round.
I still wanna pay through the nose for Cousins, trade down, and continue to infuse talent all over the field while having actual decent QB play for once.
I still wanna pay through the nose for Cousins, trade down, and continue to infuse talent all over the field while having actual decent QB play for once.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Josh Allen is Dave R's preferred rookie QB.
The Jets are sitting on over $73 million on available cap space and can free up over $100 million.
They will structure their contract offer with a front loaded fully guaranteed contract like the one Miami offered Ndamukong Suh for three years instead of the norm of two full years guaranteed so that Elway and Denver can't match it.
They aren't trying to outmaneuver us because we are going to take a rookie with a top-four pick, likely Darnold #1.
We do have over $109 million in available cap space and we could use that to get the #5 pick from Denver if Kirk and Elway play along by blowing out the Jets with more up-front guaranteed money and making a Brock Osweiler deal with Denver where we'd eat $60 million in fully guaranteed money off the top of Kirk's contract and they'd get their QB without destroying their cap or gutting the team.
They know he is a leader, something that Simien and Pax-Lynch are woefully lacking.
They know his floor and ceiling and would get him without any cap concerns, at basically a rookie deal.
They would have to give up the #5 pick but it would be worth it.
We'd still have ~approximately $50 million which would still be near the top of available cap space but would hold a huge power position in the draft if teams came calling to move-up for a QB.
daveR
Footballguy
Right. I don't have much personal info on anyone, so I have to hope the current group of GMs do better vetting than Farmer,et al.
Regarding completion percentage, I heard FWIW that Allen did a lot of throwing the ball away to prevent sacks. I can't verify it, though. Still, given that all these guys will require significant work to get to NFL level, I like the value he brings as well as the physical tools.
Bottom line: I'm not a professional GM or guru and my opinion is only valuable to me.
amnesiac
beer is good
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Yeah for the 5th pick in the draft. We did exactly the same thing for the #35 for $16 million.
Was that worth it?
ZWK
Footballguy
Allen took more sacks than average - he had 22 sacks on 292 dropbacks, when the average FBS quarterback would've had only 17 with that many dropbacks. It's possible that he was pressured a lot more than average which led to more throwaways as well as more sacks, but it at least looks like wasn't the sort of QB who reliably threw it away instead of taking the sack.
amnesiac
beer is good
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
You don't think so? We have $109 million in available cap space. If we didn't make that trade we'd have over $125 million.
PFT said that we have so much money available that we could sign Drew Brees and still have $60 million availble which would be more than only 4 NFL teams.
The amount of money that we have available is staggering. We can sit around and keep compiling it like you want or we can actually spend some to help the team.
amnesiac
beer is good
you asked if a second round pick was worth 16 million.
my answer was no.
please don’t put words in my mouth about compiling salary cap money or i’ll stop engaging you in conversation.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Dave, what is your case FOR Allen? Sorry if I missed it, I just skimmed the last page. I don’t care if you address the potential negative stuff or not (kind of already did anyways with completion percentage). Or if your opinion is based on some scouting reports, could you link them as I’d like to read them.
daveR
Footballguy
Size, rocket arm, progress during Senior bowl week, frees up pick #1 inasmuch as I think he'll be there at 4 (ie. value). In my amateur opinion, he's as likely as the others to develop.
I get a lot of info from listening to interviews on the radio. One guy who was from within the NFL said (sorry, I don't remember who he was) that there are no QBs who come out of college ready for the NFL anymore. The college system has been dumbed down for them with the object being quick play. He said everyone of them would benefit from sitting out his first professional season. To this I add a personal observation: those who are successful early on seem to have the same attribute -- a clean pocket to throw from.
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MAC_32
Footballguy
When his first read is not there and he senses pressure he does a good job keeping the play alive. The problem is he doesn't know when to bail. He keeps going. And going. And going. For as frustrating of a watch as he is this part is very entertaining. But only because he isn't on my team.
DallasDMac
Footballguy
The great thing about so many QBs being available in this draft is that when the Browns pick one, at least all those that flock to the message boards and comment sections of news sites to make fun of every single thing the Browns do will be able to spread the comments around. "Hah, they picked Allen when Darnold was available? Such a Browns move." "Chose Darnold when Mayfield was sitting there? Browns gonna Brown!" It's like catnip for those who aren't smart enough to come up with anything on their own that want to sound like they know football.
JetMaxx
Footballguy
Ironically Wentz who was infamously passed by the Browns was the exception to your 2nd paragraph. He played in a pro style offense at ND State which by all accounts put him well ahead of the curve and clearly offset any quality of competition/speed of the game concerns that his D 1AA to NFL jump might have inspired. He started game 1 of his rookie year despite missing the majority of his first training camp with injury
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Correct. He came from a Pro-set, had protypical size/arm strength and could move around in the pocket and scramble but Carson Wentz had solid completion stats in college.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/carson-wentz-1.html
- 64.1%
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/josh-allen-7.html
- 56.2%
The Combine is the next step. Josh Rosen's medical evaluation is something many teams are interested in and they all want to interview the top quarterbacks.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Bracie, are you saying you WANT to sign and trade Cousins for the #5, or that you think Denver might actually do it, or both?
I would be a bit torn on that but would not be upset at all if they did it. I just cant see our new GM who probably wants to start winning right away do something like that. Not sure he would want to take that kind of heat right off the bat with the perception of what that looks like.
Say hypothetically we did that sort of deal, what impact would it have on our cap space in 2019-2020-2021.....
I would be a bit torn on that but would not be upset at all if they did it. I just cant see our new GM who probably wants to start winning right away do something like that. Not sure he would want to take that kind of heat right off the bat with the perception of what that looks like.
Say hypothetically we did that sort of deal, what impact would it have on our cap space in 2019-2020-2021.....
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
I just don't think Kirk wants to sign with us. If Kirk signs with the Jets we'd have $109 million available cap space.
If we sign and trade him it would not cost as much as signing and keeping him. The big thing is we would get the 5th pick.
You picked up on how to regain cap space going forward and that is smart.
If Dorsey isn't handcuffed to any one QB with the top pick and would be willing to trade then the next step would get cap space.
The Jets would not have Kirk Cousins and would still need a franchise QB. Their GM has stated he is open to trading-up for a QB.
The trade chart shows the top pick is 3,000 pts and the 6th pick is only 1,600 pts which equates to their 2nd this year and 1st next and another 2nd or 3rd future picks.
What about the Colts trading out of the 3rd pick?
We offer the Colts a 2nd and our 4th pick in the first for the 3rd pick. Colts get their guy and pick up an extra 2nd. We'd still have an extra 1st next year plus another pick.
By pushing out draft capital of first round picks it assures 5 years at the rookie pay scale. An extra 1st next year basically pushes it out six years.
We have been accumulating cap space because we did not had to pay any QB contracts.
If we did something like this we'd:
- use excess cap space that isn't being used
- get an extra top-five pick this year
- move down from the 1st to 6th provided Dorsey/Jets are willing and if we can still get our guy
- get an extra 1st next year
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
The odds of Dorsey and Elway both doing that, IMO, are quite low. Both fanbases would probably riot, even though the move just migt actually be good for both teams.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Agreed that nothing, other than the Osweiler deal is anything close to something like this so it would catch fans off guard but it would benefit:
- Kirk would get guaranteed money and a long term contract with a team that can compete right away
- Denver would get their guy at a bargain and don't have to gut team
- Cleveland would use excess cap space and gain high pick
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Considering we have a giant "avoid" sign above our heads for free agents, the chances of us ever using all that cap are next to nothing right now.
We will HAVE to build a team throuh the draft most likely, so i would be on board with the move provided we trade for a few more future picks.
We will HAVE to build a team throuh the draft most likely, so i would be on board with the move provided we trade for a few more future picks.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
If we are willing to trade, teams will come calling.
https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/2/17/17023696/2018-nfl-draft-trade-rumors-bills-giants-josh-rosen-49ers
Multiple reports suggest Bills trying to trade into top 10 of NFL Draft
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/jets-gm-mike-maccagnan-is-willing-to-trade-up-in-the-draft-for-a-quarterback/
Jets GM Mike Maccagnan is willing to trade up in the draft for a quarterback
https://247sports.com/nfl/denver-broncos/Bolt/John-Elway-Broncos-have-ammo-to-trade-up-for-QB-in-NFL-draft-114319990
John Elway: Broncos have ammo to trade up for QB in NFL draft
To Elway, stockpiling draft capital is less important than securing a coveted quarterback.
Man, I think my list would be almost the exact opposite. I think Allen is the 6th best QB in this class. Obviously assuming just 1 QB would be added, I'll go with the following.daveR said:
Tier 1: Minkah Fitzpatrick, Derwin James
Tier 2: Saquon Barkley
Tier 3: Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Maurice Hurst, Josh Rosen, Lamar Jackson, Connor Williams, Bradley Chubb
So I guess I'm on board with a trade down from #1.
Best case scenario in my opinion, is trade down from #1 to something where James is likely still available, probably pick up a 1st in 2019, or several day 2 picks.
Take Fitzpatrick at 4
Get Hurst or Williams in round 2, or trade up if they seem unlikely to fall.
Sign Sam Bradford, and keep developing Kizer, unless Lamar Jackson falls to the very end of round 1, then trade up for him.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Honestly I can’t see the NFL allowing this to happen. It’s not the same as the Browns taking on Osweilers contract for a second. This just seems way too manipulative and a way to work around the salary cap. If the Broncos don’t have room to sign Cousins, then they don’t have room. I’m not sure the NFL wants to keep making precedent for teams to “sell” their salary cap space instead of just using it.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Is it against the rules right now?
It actually seems more legit than the Osweiler deal. The Browns would be trading a player for a pick, not trading both a player and a pick like we got in the Brock deal.
I think the NFL would be silly not to allow it.
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
Seems like, if Cousins wants to play in Denver, that he would be the easiest one to get on board considering there is no way they can realistically sign him without dropping key players.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I’m not sure - but it seems to violate the spirit of the rules if not. It’s creative, as was the Brock deal, but I just don’t see how the league would allow “sign and trades” outside of the team who can tag him doing it.
willing to admit I may be way off base here.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Serious question, why would the NFL be against this? It would spurn a crap ton of publicity, plus nobody is getting any sort of unfair advantage.
